Was Andrew gay?

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rgreen4411
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multiple choice question for skeptics

Post by rgreen4411 »

An older man sips herbal tea, enjoys a book of poetry and sports a lady's ring on his pinky finger. The gentlemen is a multi-millionare and could be in relaxing in the arms of a mistress. Instead he prefers to entertain a bachelor ten years his junior as an overnight guest. His second marriage has produced no offspring. Based on this we suspect:

A. Borden is a clone of John Wayne

B. Borden is a closet homosexual.

C. Only Borden's barber knows for sure.

D. Suspicion has no place in science.
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Post by Yooper »

This is absolutely absurd. Science? Bullpshaw! A seventy-year-old skinflint who has as much use for a mistress as he has for a gas hookup for his house might be sipping herbal tea as a remedy for a recent bout with food poisoning. The ring on his finger was given to him by his daughter, it was significant in that it was something of hers, not something she had bought for him, so it was a woman's ring. It would have raised more eyebrows if Andrew had chosen to entertain female overnight guests. His first marriage had produced three offspring. He married a second time. Based upon this we suspect that the proposition that Andrew is gay is:

Absolutely pointless!
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Post by sguthmann »

thanks for the info kat. even if the bed was unmade and searched, then made up again, wasn't it "made" already when Abby was discovered? I'm thinking Bridget and others had noted that it was?

about the space Abby was found in, your photos did help me to visualize the area better, and it seems a larger space than i'd thought...but it still strikes me as not exactly the "ideal" place to be whacking someone...but i suppose killers can't always be choosy. maybe the opportunity presented itself and the killer just had to just go with it? maybe abby fled around to the side of the bed, met a "dead end" and was finished off? and it does seem convenient that she lie in between the bed and dresser, out of the sight of anyone who might glance about the room. i don't think abby was was kneeling there, tucking in sheets and so forth, when she was attacked as some have speculated. i think some of the head wounds, especially the one above her ear, indicate she likely faced her attacker at some point (most likely towards the start of the attack, i would think). but how she came to be in that spot at the end is still hard to say.

as for Lizzie's statement about the door being closed, then who had opened it by the time Bridget and Mrs Churchill found Abby? i don't know about that one. i guess i've grown accustomed to take whatever Lizzie says with a grain of salt.
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Post by Kat »

Thanks for the input.
I do like my pictures!
I'd put a smilie here but it doesn't seem appropriate, with Abbie's body lying there.

I brought up the info about the bed being searched mainly because I personally am doubtful that a policeman of that day would actually remake a bed in the style of Abbie. More likely he just threw the covers back up.
(Again, pretend there's a winking smilie here).

So, the chairs were moved, the bed was moved- we think Abbie was moved, or made *decorous.* That's a lot of crime scene messed with.
Oh and there was a bureau scarf that was moved? And no handkerchief?
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Post by rgreen4411 »

Andrew Borden's age would hardly render him asexual. A friend of mine, aged 76 is planning marriage. It is unlikely a millionaire that age would be celibate. Ask yourself how many straight male adults you see sporting lady's jewelry, regardless of the reason.
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Post by Allen »

rgreen4411 @ Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:35 am wrote:Andrew Borden's age would hardly render him asexual. A friend of mine, aged 76 is planning marriage. It is unlikely a millionaire that age would be celibate. Ask yourself how many straight male adults you see sporting lady's jewelry, regardless of the reason.
I have always thought the ring on Andrew's finger was odd, but I always thought that it seemed more suspicious in the way of the relationship between Andrew and Lizzie. I don't see it as any sign that he was gay at all. I do not see a difference between this really, and the fact that I wore my boyfriends class ring on my finger in high school. I had to wrap a little tap around it to make it fit so it didn't fall off, but that's neither here nore there. But then I was wearing men's jewelry. Does that make me a lesbian? :smile:
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Post by rgreen4411 »

Wearing our boyfriend's rings has been a tradition from at least the 1950's. We wrapped the rings in yarn to make them fit or wore the rings on chains around our necks. But we were teenagers not age seventy. Had we been respected adult business women we would not be wearing our boyfrind's stuff. Male homosexuality is far more common than father/daughter incest. Andrew was a millionaire. If he wanted a young woman Andrew had options. There is also no evidence Andrew was a heavy drinker. Alcohol is often a factor in incest.
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Vinnicum not vindicated!

Post by rgreen4411 »

As Ray advised I am re-reading Forty Whacks, the 1992 version by David Kent. Others may wish to re-read the chapter on Morse. Upon returning to the house after the murder he showed no curiosity about the hundreds of people surrounding the house. Instead he sauntered to the backyard and was preoccupied with pears. He referred to Abby who had been his hostess countless times at the "dead woman". Andrew was Morse's best friend, former business partner and brother in law. Yet Morse spent three minutes in the house viewing both bodies during that brief time. Morse had clearly memorized details on his return trip from the Emery's. His alibi was "too good". I say he was at the Emery's but he sneaked out to rende-vous with Andrew. Who wrote the note to Abby? Or did Lizzie lie? I say Morse wrote the note and Abby did indeed leave the house briefly. The note was never found in my opinion because Morse destroyed it.
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Post by Kat »

Can we get some testimony here about Andrew and that ring, please? Thanks.
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the lady's pinky ring on Andrew's finger

Post by rgreen4411 »

The trial transcript. Emma testified about the good relationship andrew and Lizzie had. Emma testified in court Andrew wore the ring constantly for ten to 15 years. It was the only jewelry he wore and Andrew was buried with it on. Page 161 of Kent's book, 40 Whacks.
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Post by Kat »

Thanks for your source.

Here then is the testimony:

Trial
Emma
1530
Q. Did your father wear a ring, Miss Emma, upon his finger?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was or was not that the only article of jewelry which he wore?
A. The only article.

Q. Do you know from whom he received the ring?
A. My sister Lizzie.

Q. How long before his death?
A. I should think ten or fifteen years.

Q. Do you know whether previously to his wearing it she had worn it?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did he constantly wear it after it was given to him?
A. Always.

Q. Do you know whether or not it was upon his finger at the time he was buried?
A. It was.
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Post by rgreen4411 »

The authour David Kent's description of Andrew's second bride: "A spinster, unattractive, almost 40, stocky, withhout humor, incapable of love or affection. She knew to leave the room when business was discussed" or I would add when Andrew was entertaining younger males in the parlor under the pretext of business. Kent said Andrew married Abby to get free housekeeping.Page 52 of Forty Whacks. So I ask, "Why does a wealthy man marry a female who clearly was not desirable or wealthy? My suspicion? Andrew was gay and used marriage to Abby as a front.
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Post by Kat »

Sorry- I edited my post before I saw you there.
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Post by stuartwsa »

Kat: Your photos with the chairs in place in the guest room changes my perspective quite a bit. Since it makes a small space even more crowded, I can't get rid of the feeling that Abby was trapped or cornered in that space. Just my speculation, of course.
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Post by Kat »

I am so glad those pictures with the chairs *replaced* helps people visualize the room! Thanks for the input!
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Andrew's front door key

Post by rgreen4411 »

Briidgett let Andrew in because he "forgot" his front door key. Or did Andrew lend his key to Morse so he could let himself back in the house for their planned rendevous at approx. 10:45? Morse might have let himself in the house locking the door after him. Was Andrew's key ever found?
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Sound business advice

Post by rgreen4411 »

Andrew was a wealthy successful business man. Residing near Harvard University, this established banker could have sought financial advice from learned men. Instead John Morse is Borden's confidant? Morse, was Borden's former partner in a furniture store which failed. Gay men often start businesses together as a cover for their relationship. Morse was a horse trader who admits consulting a fortune teller at age 59. (Forty Whacks page 212) Yet we are supposed to believe Andrew spent time with Morse because he valued Morse's insight on business matters? How believable is that? And I suppose Donald Trump fraternizes with Bozo the Clown to glean well reasoned and informed guidance?
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Keystone Cops

Post by rgreen4411 »

Capt. Harrington of Fall River's finest testified Andrew's shoes were laced. The photo shows the shoes Andrew wore were the slip on/no laces variety. (Pg 119)
Officer Desmond swore he wrapped vital evidence, the hatchet head, in newspaper while Officer Medley solemnly claimed to have wrapped the same hatchet heat in brown paper. Clearly one or both of them were wrong. (pg 125).
Officer Medley also claimed to have inspected the loft and found no footprints in the dust. Reporter Stevens witnessed three people enter the loft BEFORE Officer Medley's meticulous inspection. (Pg 156).
Authour Kent notes both Officer Medley and Fleet perjured themselves in court (pg 157).
Officer Medley ignored a vital eye winess, Mr Lubinsky who saw a female leave the barn at the same time Lizzie said she did. (pg 157)
All pages referenced are from Forty Whacks by David Kent.
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Andrew's macho jewelry

Post by rgreen4411 »

Officer Michael Maullaly testified he saw a ring on Andrew's pinky finger. Pg 20 Forty Whacks by David Kent
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the groan Lizzie heard

Post by rgreen4411 »

Lizzie testified she heard a groan which caused her to hurry back into the house through the side door. It is doubtful this sound came from Andrew who was dead by then. I suspect Lizzie heard Morse groan as he headed out the front door. Morse groaned from the exhaustion of the labor he had performed chopping two people to death and the task of getting hastily out the front door. Morse was in possession of Andrew's front door key in my opinion.
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Morse checks into the Borden household with no luggage

Post by rgreen4411 »

Morse did not bring even a toothbrush when he showed up unexpectedly at the Borden household the night before the murders. Yet he planned on staying a few days! I suspect Morse was a homosexual who had another male "friend" at whose house he left his luggage.
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wealthy males are seldom celibate regardless of age

Post by rgreen4411 »

Logic allows limited options as one ponders the life of Andrew Borden in the year of his death. These are the five choices:

A. Andrew enjoyed the marital bed with 200 lb. dour balding Abby.
B. Andrew had a mistress who never surfaced nor appeared in his will.
C. Andrew was gay.
D. Andrew was incestous.
E. Poor health rendered Andrew celibate, although he walked several miles a day, worked diligently, was active about the house, entertained guests, seldom saw the doctor and had a good appetite.
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Post by RayS »

rgreen4411 @ Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:40 pm wrote:The authour David Kent's description of Andrew's second bride: "A spinster, unattractive, almost 40, stocky, withhout humor, incapable of love or affection. She knew to leave the room when business was discussed" or I would add when Andrew was entertaining younger males in the parlor under the pretext of business. Kent said Andrew married Abby to get free housekeeping.Page 52 of Forty Whacks. So I ask, "Why does a wealthy man marry a female who clearly was not desirable or wealthy? My suspicion? Andrew was gay and wanted the front marriage to Abby provided.
I still think you are an agent-provocateur who wants to stir up trouble with worthless speculations ...

Totally wrong, because the people there didn't see this. YOU obviously think so highly of yourself as to imagine others would agree with you.

You never thought about Andy's rent collecting, where he could make a deal with housewived about the rent. Remember those old jokes about the milkman?
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Post by Smudgeman »

While everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion about this case, I find it somewhat ridiculous to even speculate that Andrew was gay. What, he waited until he was in his late 60's early 70's to act on his desires? Many educated men like to read poetry, and sip on tea, and wearing your daughter's ring screams incest more than homosexuality in my mind. If we are to focus on why Andrew wore Lizzie's ring.
And if Andrew and John were gonna have a so called rendevous, wouldn't they go to the Swansea farm or somewhere else to be alone, away from the girls in the house? It just doesn't ring true.
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Post by Kat »

I should have taken my photos elsewhere to another topic. Sorry.
You can have your thread back. It had gone off track I guess.
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Post by Kat »

It looks like the topic-starter here changed the title of this thread twice now, most recently today. See first post.

Nothing wrong with that- just letting people know.
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Re: wealthy males are seldom celibate regardless of age

Post by Yooper »

rgreen4411 @ Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:37 am wrote:Logic allows limited options as one ponders the life of Andrew Borden in the year of his death. These are the five choices:

A. Andrew enjoyed the marital bed with 200 lb. dour balding Abby.
B. Andrew had a mistress who never surfaced nor appeared in his will.
C. Andrew was gay.
D. Andrew was incestous.
E. Poor health rendered Andrew celibate, although he walked several miles a day, worked diligently, was active about the house, entertained guests, seldom saw the doctor and had a good appetite.
Maybe Andrew was a member of a religious cult.
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a possible affair

Post by rgreen4411 »

It would seem the affair began when Morse and Andrew owned a furniture business together. At that time Morse was 25 and Andrew 35. No one suggests Bordon "came out" at age seventy. Suppose they went into the guest bedroom for a brief moment of intimacy? A few minutes of what Bill Clinton advises us is not sex. If Abby came home unexpectedly and surprised them in the act it might have set off a chain of events otherwise unexplainable. As for the pinky ring suggesting incest in my opinion wealthy males rarely resort to incest except in fiction (Chinatown). A young mistress would have been well within the financial means of the banker Borden.
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Post by Harry »

What is your source for saying Andrew and Morse owned a furniture business together? Andrew's partner in the furniture business was William Almy. They formed the firm of Borden & Almy. Mr. Morse had no involvement with that firm.
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the failed furniture business

Post by rgreen4411 »

On page 22 of Forty Whacks by David Kent. "John and Andrew had pioneered a furniture business together but with no particular success." This was apparently before Morse moved out west at age 25.
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Post by Allen »

rgreen4411 @ Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:52 am wrote:As for the pinky ring suggesting incest in my opinion wealthy males rarely resort to incest except in fiction (Chinatown).
I do not think that money has anything to do with a mans urge to commit incest. I don't believe a man with money is less likely to commit incest than a man without a fortune in the bank. I do not see the logic in that statement. Money is not what causes the urge a man has to commit this act. In my opinion most pedophiles do not "resort" to incest for lack of a better way to put it. It's an unhealthy uncontrollable attraction to children. Therefore money has no baring one way or the other. But that's my opinion. I've also heard true stories of some very rich men who did in fact commit incest with their children.
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Post by rgreen4411 »

Thank you Kat. The photos are worthwhile.
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Post by Harry »

You are correct in that that is what Kent has. When Andrew was 35, in 1857, he had already been in business with Almy for 10 years. Their partnership would continue for another 20 years or so until Almy retired.

Morse would have been 14 years old when Borden & Almy was formed in 1847. I have no idea when this alleged partnership of Morse and Andrew cited by Kent could have occurred.

Morse moved west to Excelsior, Minnesota in 1855 at the age of 22. After one year there he moved to Illinois for 14 years.
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please refer to a medical textbook

Post by rgreen4411 »

Incest and pediphilia are two different categories which sometimes overlap. If you refer to a medical textbook the difference between the two will be clear.
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Post by rgreen4411 »

So did Andrew have two furniture businesses? One with Almy which prospered and one with Morse which failed?
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Post by rgreen4411 »

The pinky ring did not arouse the suspicions of the pillars of the community in 1892. The pinky ring was mentioned at Lizzie's trial by the defense using this to establish a healthy loving relationship between father and daughter. The Victorians were naive. They were also too naive to even consider that a respected business man would be having an affair with a younger male overnight guest.
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Post by rgreen4411 »

There is no evidence Andrew was a member of a religious cult. The Shakers took vows of celibacy and for some reason none of them are left.
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Post by Smudgeman »

rgreen4411 @ Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:52 am wrote:It would seem the affair began when Morse and Andrew owned a furniture business together. At that time Morse was 25 and Andrew 35. No one suggests Bordon "came out" at age seventy. Are you not aware many gay men rendevous in public toilets or even phone booths? Why not a guest bedroom for a brief moment of intimacy? A few minutes of what Bill Clinton advises us is not sex. If Abby came home unexpectedly and surprised them in the act it might have set off a chain of events otherwise unexplainable. As for the pinky ring suggesting incest in my opinion wealthy males rarely resort to incest except in fiction (Chinatown). A young mistress would have been well within the financial means of the banker Borden.

Since I am a gay male, I am well aware of where men go to engage in sexual activity. Andrew had enough money to go anywhere he wanted if he needed a private place to be alone. And, wealthy men do commit incest, so you are way off base there.
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Post by rgreen4411 »

You are correct. And President Clinton could have gone to Camp David, but he didn't. The convenience of the guest bedroom for Andrew and Morse is apparent. A few stolen moments of privacy which would have worked well had Abby not come back home.
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Post by Allen »

rgreen4411 @ Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:24 am wrote:You are correct. And President Clinton could have gone to Camp David, but he didn't. The convenience of the guest bedroom for Andrew and Morse is apparent. A few stolen moments of privacy which would have worked well had Abby not come back home.
Just to be clear, the only evidence you have to go on that Andrew was gay was the ring he wore on his finger?
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Post by Shelley »

The danger of using ONE particular source to back up any claim is that often- more often than not, sadly, an author has not done their homework. Kent saying that Morse and Andrew had a furniture business together is incorrect- and he should have used more than one source to check this before writing this as fact. More injustice has been done to this case by lazy researchers who give themselves the lofty title of "author" when in fact some do little more than lift, paste and copy chunks of erroneous speculations by others, faulty coverage in newspapers, and unsubstantiated imaginings by people -and amateurs at that, trying to come up with foundationless titillating new theories on the case. It is frustrating to hear people parrot the most absurd misinformation they have "learned" from the Internet or by reading one error-filled paperback on the case. The most sensational claims oft being the ones most-remembered.

The real facts and documents should be juicy enough for most.
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clarification

Post by rgreen4411 »

A review of former postings will make it clear the pinky ring is not the only indication Andrew might be gay. Why does a prominent banker waste his time with Morse who the day before the murder claims he went to a fortune teller? Is this the Odd Couple? Where was Andrew's front door Key? Did he give the key to Morse? Was there a note summoning Abby out of the house? If so why? Who wrote the note? Who had a chance to destroy the note? I say Morse wrote the note and later destroyed it.
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one episode of violence

Post by rgreen4411 »

This appears to be an unpremeditated double homocide. The scenario I suggest places the killer and both victims in the same room at the same time and links the two killings to one edisode of violence.

I maintain the suspicion John Morse and Andrew, former partners in a failed furniture business, were homosexual. Morse never married and lived with a man. His frequent overnight stays at the Borden's suggest an affair. Andrew's second marriage produced no children, a possible indication of a platonic marriage which is often the case when gay males marry. Another curious fact which makes me think of Andrew as effeminate is the fact he wore Lizzie's ring on his pinky finger and had a fondness for poetry and herbal tea. While none of these facts standing alone suggests homosexuality, the entire picture raises questions.

MY THEORY

Morse created the note which sent Abby out of the house.

Morse was in the possession of Andrew's "lost" front door key.

The men wanted to be alone and went to the guest bedroom.

Abby returned sooner than expected and heard unusual activity in the bedroom.

Fearing an intruder Abby grabbed a weapon (the new ax?) and burst into the bedroom.

Perhaps the bedroom door was locked, but Abby had the key.

Abby discovered her husband and Morse engaged in sexual activity.

Abby may have waved the ax in protest or merely appeared threatening by just having it in her hand.

Morse, fearing for his life and reputation, killed Abby.

During the assault Andrew attempted to intervene and suffered a blow to the head. This was a closed head concussion (no blood). The blow may have been accidental.

Dazed from the concussion Andrew staggered to the couch.

Morse killed him because he was a witness. Author Masterton relying on modern forensics places the possible time of the two deaths as closer together than previously thought. I theorize Andrew died shortly after Abby.

Morse destroyed the note Abby had received.

Morse let himself out the front door and locked it behind him with Andrew's "missing" key.

As Morse left he groaned. This is the groan Lizzie heard from the backyard. Andrew was dead and did not groan.

Morse had been to his niece's house earlier that day.

Morse returned to his niece's home and changed the clocks in her house to confuse the occupants about the time frame.

Morse may have been naked at the time of the murder or he may have left clothes at the Borden house on a previous visit.

Morse had some dried blood on him. When he returned to the Borden residence he used several very moist pears to dilute and rub the blood off. Discarded after use the pears dried quickly in the summer heat and blended in with the ground.

This explains why Morse spend much of the afternoon in the backyard. He was stepping on the bloody pears to make them blend into the ground.

When people got to nosy, Morse reportedly locked some of them in the barn. Eventually insects, animals and the sun destroyed the pears and the blood evidence.

I believe I have addressed motive, opportunity and explained the lack of blood evidence. In his business Morse may have often slaughtered cattle with a similar method and/or chopped wood. The action of swinging a hatchet may have been routine for him.


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For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
rgreen4411
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Post by rgreen4411 »

The suggestion of Andrew and Morse as a gay couple is not juicy or titilating. The six o'clock news provides more fodder if one wants their mind in the gutter. Married males having gay companions is a fact of life. In 1892 this possibility was unthinkable. That is why this scenario has never been entertained before. If the theory is wrong it will be refuted by fact.
For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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Allen
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Re: one episode of violence

Post by Allen »

rgreen4411 @ Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:04 pm wrote:This appears to be an unpremeditated double homocide. The scenario I suggest places the killer and both victims in the same room at the same time and links the two killings to one edisode of violence.

I maintain the suspicion John Morse and Andrew, former partners in a failed furniture business, were homosexual. Morse never married and lived with a man. His frequent overnight stays at the Borden's suggest an affair. Andrew's second marriage produced no children, a possible indication of a platonic marriage which is often the case when gay males marry. Another curious fact which makes me think of Andrew as effeminate is the fact he wore Lizzie's ring on his pinky finger and had a fondness for poetry and herbal tea. While none of these facts standing alone suggests homosexuality, the entire picture raises questions.

I maintain the suspicion John Morse and Andrew, former partners in a failed furniture business, were homosexual.
As has been stated above, John Morse and Andrew were never partners in a furniture busines.

Morse never married and lived with a man.
It was not uncommon in that era for unmarried men to live together in the same household as friends, or unmarried women. It isn't uncommon in this day and age for that matter. Today it's called being room mates? Or is it your belief that because Morse never married he should live alone?

His frequent overnight stays at the Borden's suggest an affair.
He was the brother of Andrew's first wife Sarah Anthony Morse. It is not unusual or suspect for a husband to stay close to the family members of his deceased spouse. The two men may have become friends while Andrew was married to John's sister, and continued the relationship after Sarah's death.

Andrew's second marriage produced no children, a possible indication of a platonic marriage which is often the case when gay males marry.
Andrew's first marriage produced three children. There are many reasons why the second marriage may not have produced any offspring.

Another curious fact which makes me think of Andrew as effeminate is the fact he wore Lizzie's ring on his pinky finger and had a fondness for poetry and herbal tea.
Many men enjoy poetry and drink tea.

I'd say even taken together all of this facts, some of which are erroneous, still do not point towards Andrew being gay in my opinion.
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Post by Shelley »

It is unlikely that anyone is going to be able to refute OR confirm your theory as nearly 115 years have elapsed since the event. The burden of proof is upon you- prove it if you can.

My mind is not "in the gutter", you do not provide any evidence to back up your theory- it is pure idle speculation, and some of the known facts do not support your theory in the first place. If you are indeed a registered nurse, Ms. Green, the statement that wearing a pinky ring, drinking medicinal tea and other "indicators" you provide are sure-fire signs of homosexuality, then I can only imagine what you will have to say about former football great, Rosey Grier, who not only wore a pinky ring, he did needlepoint and attend some ballet classes with some teammates. Am not sure if he drank herb tea though.

And I quite disagree- proclaiming that Andrew and John were lovers- is most assuredly a "juicy" and unexpected twist- and attention-getting-which is- in the end, I suspect the reason for these numerous and non-ending threads on this theory, the numerous postings being pointed out with apparent alacrity and pride.

It's always easy to fabricate things, no matter how absurd when there is no likelihood that there will ever be any proof .
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Post by shakiboo »

Shelley @ Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:33 am wrote:It is unlikely that anyone is going to be able to refute OR confirm your theory as nearly 115 years have elapsed since the event. The burden of proof is upon you- prove it if you can.

My mind is not "in the gutter", you do not provide any evidence to back up your theory- it is pure idle speculation, and some of the known facts do not support your theory in the first place. If you are indeed a registered nurse, Ms. Green, the statement that wearing a pinky ring, drinking medicinal tea and other "indicators" you provide are sure-fire signs of homosexuality, then I can only imagine what you will have to say about former football great, Rosey Grier, who not only wore a pinky ring, he did needlepoint and attend some ballet classes with some teammates. Am not sure if he drank herb tea though.

And I quite disagree- proclaiming that Andrew and John were lovers- is most assuredly a "juicy" and unexpected twist- and attention-getting-which is- in the end, I suspect the reason for these numerous and non-ending threads on this theory, the numerous postings being pointed out with apparent alacrity and pride.

It's always easy to fabricate things, no matter how absurd when there is no likelihood that there will ever be any proof .
Well said Shelley!!
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wondering

Post by rgreen4411 »

Take a look at former football great Rosey Grier's wife. Did he marry someone like Abby? Author David Kent described Andrew's second bride as "A spinster, unattractive, almost 40, stocky, withhout humor, incapable of love or affection. Abby knew to leave the room when business was discussed" If Donald Trump married a carbon copy of Abby today would we not wonder? So in 1892 do we presume weathy dynamic Andrew to be celibate? Indeed, we will never know what Mr Borden's orientation was and it does not matter unless it explains a provocation for murder. Because we do not know what happened we should consider all scenarios. Andrew may have had a long term relationship with Morse. It would explain a lot including the misplaced front door key, the note Lizzie said Abby received, the disappearance of the note, the groan Lizzie heard when she was outside.
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Post by bobarth »

Two men wanting to have sex will go somewhere so as they can neither be seen nor heard. The VERY last place they would go would be to a home where one has their wife, child and a maid.
Since Andrew and John were both seen away from the house that morning by many many witnesses. There could be no possibly of them having any "Afternoon Delights" at the time of the murder.
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imperfect judgment

Post by rgreen4411 »

Yes, Morse and Andrew should have chosen a more private place. If they had been meeting secretly for years and never been caught they may have grown careless. A few moments of intimacy of the nature President Clinton assures us is not even sex may have seemed a safe risk for them. After all Abby was out of the house having received a note that Morse wrote. If any one came Morse could emerge from the guest room where he had spent the previous night and arouse no suspicion. A few minutes later Morse could signal to Andrew when the coast was clear. Is not the chance of getting caught sometimes part of the thrill? And Bridget was busy washing windows. Lizzie was outside. An error in judgment was made. The two men took a risk and the results were fatal. Maybe Andrew was becoming a tad senile? And Morse was no rock of stability. The day before he had been to a fortune teller. Sounds like lousy judgment to me. Showing up for a few days stay without a change of clothing or toothbrush as Morse did is also an indication that he was not the most sensible man in town.
For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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