Was Andrew gay?

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Susan
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Post by Susan »

I find it an abomination that gays and lesbians are viewed as less than due to their sexuality in 2007. I know many gays and lesbians, its not a choice, its not a sickness, its just the way they are. Leveticus also says many other things; that it is a sin to shave, or plant your fields with two types of seeds, or to wear material woven of two types of cloth (like Lizzie's Bengaline silk dress) or to eat pork(like Abby and Andrew's porksteak breakfast on Wednesday).

That being said, I believe we are steering into muddy waters here, it states in the rules that Stefani posted:

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At no time will any member of this forum engage in any bashing of another's religion, gender, sexual orientation, race, political persuasion, or stances on social issues such as abortion or same-sex marriage. No one is to use this forum to preach to others or attempt to convert them to a particular religion or belief system.
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theebmonique
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Post by theebmonique »

Susan @ Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:40 pm wrote:I find it an abomination that gays and lesbians are viewed as less than due to their sexuality in 2007. I know many gays and lesbians, its not a choice, its not a sickness, its just the way they are. Leveticus also says many other things; that it is a sin to shave, or plant your fields with two types of seeds, or to wear material woven of two types of cloth (like Lizzie's Bengaline silk dress) or to eat pork(like Abby and Andrew's porksteak breakfast on Wednesday).

That being said, I believe we are steering into muddy waters here, it states in the rules that Stefani posted:

Religion, Politics, and Other Such Issues
At no time will any member of this forum engage in any bashing of another's religion, gender, sexual orientation, race, political persuasion, or stances on social issues such as abortion or same-sex marriage. No one is to use this forum to preach to others or attempt to convert them to a particular religion or belief system.

Susan, you are absolutely correct.





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Post by Shelley »

Muddy waters -yes, and stormy seas too, possibly. As we are here to take a look at this case, using all the tools we have to hand- every clue, document, fact, testimony. etc. it is always crucial to examine all of it in the light of the era in which it occured in history, and not by today's standards, lifestyle, and influences.

People of the same sex, though, continue to share living expenses and domicile both today and in 1892 without being of a homosexual orientation. I would need to see a great deal more evidence to incline myself to believe there was a relationship of this nature between Andrew and Morse-most certainly more than the fact that Morse did not marry and would stay from time to time with an old male friend when he came back East.

Some of the best theories on this case incorporate the simple basics of human nature and behavior, encompass known facts which can be documented and stick to the tried and true patterns so often observed in life. Sure, once in a great while we get a real wild card-something totally off the wall and unexpected- but that is usually the exception rather than the rule.
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Post by SallyG »

Susan @ Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:40 pm wrote:I find it an abomination that gays and lesbians are viewed as less than due to their sexuality in 2007. I know many gays and lesbians, its not a choice, its not a sickness, its just the way they are. Leveticus also says many other things; that it is a sin to shave, or plant your fields with two types of seeds, or to wear material woven of two types of cloth (like Lizzie's Bengaline silk dress) or to eat pork(like Abby and Andrew's porksteak breakfast on Wednesday).

That being said, I believe we are steering into muddy waters here, it states in the rules that Stefani posted:

Religion, Politics, and Other Such Issues
At no time will any member of this forum engage in any bashing of another's religion, gender, sexual orientation, race, political persuasion, or stances on social issues such as abortion or same-sex marriage. No one is to use this forum to preach to others or attempt to convert them to a particular religion or belief system.
Thank you!! It's only common sense that these topics should be avoided, as everyone has a different view and different opinion...how in the world did this business ever get started?
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Post by RayS »

SallyG @ Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:03 am wrote:
Susan @ Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:40 pm wrote:I find it an abomination that gays and lesbians are viewed as less than due to their sexuality in 2007. I know many gays and lesbians, its not a choice, its not a sickness, its just the way they are. Leveticus also says many other things; that it is a sin to shave, or plant your fields with two types of seeds, or to wear material woven of two types of cloth (like Lizzie's Bengaline silk dress) or to eat pork(like Abby and Andrew's porksteak breakfast on Wednesday).

That being said, I believe we are steering into muddy waters here, it states in the rules that Stefani posted:

Religion, Politics, and Other Such Issues
At no time will any member of this forum engage in any bashing of another's religion, gender, sexual orientation, race, political persuasion, or stances on social issues such as abortion or same-sex marriage. No one is to use this forum to preach to others or attempt to convert them to a particular religion or belief system.
Thank you!! It's only common sense that these topics should be avoided, as everyone has a different view and different opinion...how in the world did this business ever get started?
I wonder if the originator is an agent-provacateur who wants to cause dissension and trouble? We know people have been kicked off this site for this. I remember the PHaye site being shut down for its misbehavior, and somebody may want to cause the same thing here.

I took this not as a serious discussion about religion, but a cute attempt to mock religous beliefs. We know that Christians and Islamics follow (more or less) the Pentateuch (spelling?), the basis of the Torah.

In the 7th century the Pope of that day condemned tattoos based on Leviticus, and in the 8th century Mohammed did the same for his followers.

Was it St. Paul and others who said the Jewish Laws did not all apply to the new converts of Chritianity? This is serious stuff, so stop laughing!

I read that a few people in Greece are going back to the ancient religion of pre-Christianity. Like those who imagine themselves Wiccans. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I believe Christianity conquered Europe in part because it was a better way of life. No more human sacrifice for a better crop, for example. They just used crop rotation to increase and multiply. And yes, they did plant differenct crops next to each other. Helps to avoid plagues of insects and disease, I think.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Post by RayS »

I do believe that the US was right to revolt against British Imperialism.

If this be treason, make the most of it.

I'm still waiting for the ROFLMAO comments. I won't explain.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Post by rgreen4411 »

Reply to lShelley.. Author Masterton suggests a "new axe" was sitting in the living room. Have you read his book, "Lizzie didn't do it". ? Thus Abbie did not have to run to the cellar. The axe may have been close by. She may have acted on impulse...often a fatal mistake.
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Post by Shelley »

Oh, I could buy the idea that there may have been a new HATCHET in the kitchen- but never a new AXE in the sittingroom (if that's what you mean by livingroom). The fireplaces were not used as Andrew had installed radiators in 1872- and they are still there by the way and being used still to heat the house. Having an axe in the sittingroom would be comparable to having an elephant there- :grin:

The woodstove kindling was precut and stored in the cellar, but having a hatchet near or in the kindling box for pieces which may have been cut too long to fit was, and still is a common situation. I can't seem to find any testimony though where Bridget was asked if there was a hatchet handy in the kitchen. An axe has a very long- 30-34 inch handle, not a hand tool for close quarter usage.

It takes only a minute to go from the guest bedroom, down to the cellar and pick up a hatchet, and return to the guestroom. Literally- a minute.
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Post by RayS »

We shouldn't quote out of context. You can compare the Torah or first five books of the Old Testament to the laws of Sparta or Rome or the Phoenicians. No Miranda warning in those days, torture was the approved method for getting a confession. The "good old days"? NOT!

BTW do you know about the customs and laws in Saudi Arabia today?

I once read about the "Rostov Ripper". They got a young man as suspect, tortured him in prison until he confessed, knowing he would be executed. Case closed? Not really.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Post by rgreen4411 »

Shelley, suppose the new axe had just been purchased that day and had not yet been placed where it belonged? Could Abbie move that fast at 200 lbs? Could she get to the cellar and back in 60 seconds?
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Post by snokkums »

rgreen4411 @ Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:04 pm wrote:Shelley, suppose the new axe had just been purchased that day and had not yet been placed where it belonged? Could Abbie move that fast at 200 lbs? Could she get to the cellar and back in 60 seconds?
I think that would be alittle hard, given her size, and that she wasn't exactly a spring chicken.
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Post by Shelley »

A 200 pound woman can do the guestroom, cellar, guestroom stint in a minute- absolutely. That experiment has been done many times. It is not a question of weight -it is a matter of flexibility, good knees, physical shape. And we do not know about Abby's physical ability. These were days when people of necessity had to walk farther, and do manual labor. Even at Abby's age, she may well have been in better shape than a younger person today.

Much has been surmised about Abby's health but in the end- there is no proof existing of it. Some will point out her shoes and speculate she must have had bad feet- but I just see old, possibly mismatched shoes or a distortion of camera angle in that famous crime scene photo.

When is this axe to have been bought? Say the stores opened at 9 a.m.- even 8 a.m. in the morning. If someone in the family had purchased an axe, entered the side door with it in a brown paper bag- why on earth would they carry it into the sitting room when the barn and cellar is handy on the way, and would be the logical place for an axe- not to mention two axes were found already in the starch box under Andrew's tool bench. There was no need for another -most especially in August when splitting wood could not have been a priority.

Had it been purchased the day before, surely it would not have been propped up against the sitting room fireplace without anyone remarking on it and putting it where it belonged- especially a domestic woman like Abby. If you came into MY house however, 3 hatchets could be lying around and nobody would notice much with all the stuff about. :lol:
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Post by Kat »

I haven't heard of, or don't recall, a reference to "Andrew's tool box." What is this please? Thanks!

When does Andrew usually unlock the barn? I think Bridget knows. This is to find out if at 8 AM a new hatchet could be secreted there.
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Post by Shelley »

I have edited tool box to read "tool bench"- the work bench which was in the front section of the cellar which had a starch box on the floor beneath it containing two axes with the handles sticking up.
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Post by Yooper »

If a new hatchet had been purchased recently, wouldn't someone remember selling it?
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Post by Shelley »

Axe or hatchet- yep- that thought had occured to me too :grin: and I suspect Abby did most of her shopping on foot and in the neighborhood.
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Post by Kat »

The (starch) box of hatchets etc. was put down low after it was found, but it didn't start out there.
As for tool bench- if I search that will I find it in testimony? I've heard of a bench type place.
I will have a look.
Thanks...I was behind in reading these topics.

Yooper, I have just speculated on something similar in The Crow's Roof Hatchet topic! :smile:
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Post by Kat »

I just word searched the trial and only found a bench in the barn.
I know the cellar floorplan specifies a bench in 2 places, but not where we are looking.

There is one shown on the eastern wall in that front cellar room.

I kind of know what you mean, but I'm not great at search terms.
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Post by snokkums »

From Shelley,
"A 200 pound woman can do the questroom, cellar, questroom stint in a minut, absouluately. The experiment has beend one many times. It is a matter of flexibility goodknees physical shape. And we do not know about Abbys physical ability. These were the days when people of neccessity had to walk farther and do manual labor. Even at Abbys age she may well have been in better shape than a younger person today."

You are so right, I never looked at it like that. People look at me being heavy and think that I can't walk or run, and yet they have trouble keeping up with me when we go walking.
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Post by Shelley »

Well, I am no peanut, let me tell you :lol: - and I can scoot up and down those killer front steps, to the cellar and back with 2 bad knees in one minute, and had 2 seconds to sit on the bed and take a deep breath. One need not be an Olympian-and adrenaline does WONDERS for even the most physically unfit.

Yes, I was referring to that work bench in the forward wood room, the one bordering Second Street where there was a starch box containing 2 axes, heads down- wherever that was- up, down, under, on the floor- my point was that there were two axes- why buy another?
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Post by 1bigsteve »

If Lizzie was the killer I think she probably had the killings preplanned and probably had the hatchet hidden in her room. After the killings she may have placed the hatchet under her mattress where no one would think to look especially since she was laying on it while the police were there. Just a theory.

I really don't think Andrew was gay. I don't see any indications in reading about the case that he was gay.

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Post by SallyG »

I don't think Andrew was gay, either. At the time of the murder of Abby, I believe both Andrew and Uncle John were accounted for, and they were nowhere near the house, let alone in bed together!!
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Post by SallyG »

1bigsteve @ Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:27 am wrote:If Lizzie was the killer I think she probably had the killings preplanned and probably had the hatchet hidden in her room. After the killings she may have placed the hatchet under her mattress where no one would think to look especially since she was laying on it while the police were there. Just a theory.

I really don't think Andrew was gay. I don't see any indications in reading about the case that he was gay.

-1bigsteve (o:
I think it's possible the hatchet might have still been in Lizzie's room. I still like Victoria Lincoln's theory that the hatchet could have been concealed in the slop bucket, among Lizzie's menstrual rags. That may have been why she was so anxious to go downstairs to the cellar the night of the murders. If I remember correctly, she was going down to the cellar with the slop bucket, and Alice offered to go with her. Then afterwards, she went back downstairs again, and one of the guards around the house saw her putting something under the sink.
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Post by Shelley »

Yes, they both were admirably accounted for. I do believe though that Lizzie lay in her pink wrapper on the fainting sofa- but of course she COULD have tucked the hatchet between her mattress- nobody searched there in her room while she was in there. Then when she trotted downstairs twice that evening- it would have been a very easy matter to pop it in the slop pail and take it downstairs to the cellar.
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Post by Shelley »

A slop pail, by the way is just a perfect fit for the average hatchet- and it has a nice lid on it too. I do not believe Lizzie had counted on old Alice tagging along the first time. I see Alice offering to take a lamp down, trying to be helpful. As soon as Alice closed her door and started bathing, Lizzie saw her chance to return to the cellar ALONE. I picture her scuttling down the front stairs, past the diningroom doors where her father and Abby lay prone, through the kitchen and down those stairs to the cellar again. Ooo :shock:
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Post by SallyG »

If she did carry the hatchet back downstairs to the cellar, what did she do with it? One of the guards said he saw her stoop and thrust something under the sink. If there were loose boards in the cupboard and she put the hatchet under one of those, what happened to it afterward? Obviously, a thorough search was done. Someone removed it from it's hiding place. I know there was the hatchet head found in the box of hatchets by the chimney. But I don't believe any handle was found for it. Even if that was the hatchet, and the handle had been removed and burned, and the hatchet head placed in the box, who did it? I would think Lizzie was under enough scrutiny that she would have had a hard time finding an opportunity to do it.

On the other hand, could Lizzie have had some blood spattered garment hidden in the slop bucket that she stuffed under the sink cupboard? Does anyone know what was kept under the sink?

I still believe that Bridget had a hand in it; not in the murders themselves, but in helping Lizzie clean up, dispose of the hatchet, etc.
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Post by Yooper »

snokkums @ Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:28 pm wrote:bless you Yooper! It's been a long time since I have heard the term "that there"!! Living in the south now it's hard to hear some midwestern terms. I grew up in Milwaukee.

Snokkums
Here's a link to an interesting site if you're familiar with Milwaukee. Others might be interested, too.

http://www.uwm.edu/Library/digilib/Milwaukee/index.html

There are several photographs from the 1880's and 1890's.

The Milwaukee Museum has an exhibit, "The Streets of Old Milwaukee", which is a walk-through representation of shops and homes from the gaslight era.
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Post by Yooper »

SallyG @ Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:40 am wrote:If she did carry the hatchet back downstairs to the cellar, what did she do with it? One of the guards said he saw her stoop and thrust something under the sink. If there were loose boards in the cupboard and she put the hatchet under one of those, what happened to it afterward? Obviously, a thorough search was done. Someone removed it from it's hiding place. I know there was the hatchet head found in the box of hatchets by the chimney. But I don't believe any handle was found for it. Even if that was the hatchet, and the handle had been removed and burned, and the hatchet head placed in the box, who did it? I would think Lizzie was under enough scrutiny that she would have had a hard time finding an opportunity to do it.

On the other hand, could Lizzie have had some blood spattered garment hidden in the slop bucket that she stuffed under the sink cupboard? Does anyone know what was kept under the sink?

I still believe that Bridget had a hand in it; not in the murders themselves, but in helping Lizzie clean up, dispose of the hatchet, etc.
That would have been nerve-wracking, keeping the hatchet one step ahead of the police!

Involving Bridget would certainly allow more clean-up time and a way to possibly dispose of the hatchet. Bridget might have been a bit conspicuous running down the street carrying a hatchet, though. It is possible that Bridget being afraid to go alone to find the bedsheets and her offer to look at Whitehead's for Abby were the result of a good acting job.
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Post by Harry »

Yooper @ Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:46 pm wrote:....Here's a link to an interesting site if you're familiar with Milwaukee. Others might be interested, too.

http://www.uwm.edu/Library/digilib/Milwaukee/index.html

There are several photographs from the 1880's and 1890's.

The Milwaukee Museum has an exhibit, "The Streets of Old Milwaukee", which is a walk-through representation of shops and homes from the gaslight era.
The photos of the houses on Prospect Avenue and Highland Blvd are as about Victorian as you can get. Very nice! Hopefully some remnants still exist.
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Post by Yooper »

I haven't been down there lately, but many of the mansions along Highland Boulevard were still there when I lived there. Many of the houses along Prospect have been converted to other uses, but they still exist. They would be on a bluff or rise above Lake Michigan.
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Post by snokkums »

Yooper @ Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:46 pm wrote:
snokkums @ Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:28 pm wrote:bless you Yooper! It's been a long time since I have heard the term "that there"!! Living in the south now it's hard to hear some midwestern terms. I grew up in Milwaukee.

Snokkums
Here's a link to an interesting site if you're familiar with Milwaukee. Others might be interested, too.

http://www.uwm.edu/Library/digilib/Milwaukee/index.html

There are several photographs from the 1880's and 1890's.

The Milwaukee Museum has an exhibit, "The Streets of Old Milwaukee", which is a walk-through representation of shops and homes from the gaslight era.

:roll: Thanks Yooper! It does bring back alot of memories. And all the pictures, I know everyone of those streets, and parks. Used to do alot of partying in some of those parks!!
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Post by SallyG »

Yooper @ Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:58 pm wrote:
SallyG @ Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:40 am wrote:If she did carry the hatchet back downstairs to the cellar, what did she do with it? One of the guards said he saw her stoop and thrust something under the sink. If there were loose boards in the cupboard and she put the hatchet under one of those, what happened to it afterward? Obviously, a thorough search was done. Someone removed it from it's hiding place. I know there was the hatchet head found in the box of hatchets by the chimney. But I don't believe any handle was found for it. Even if that was the hatchet, and the handle had been removed and burned, and the hatchet head placed in the box, who did it? I would think Lizzie was under enough scrutiny that she would have had a hard time finding an opportunity to do it.

On the other hand, could Lizzie have had some blood spattered garment hidden in the slop bucket that she stuffed under the sink cupboard? Does anyone know what was kept under the sink?

I still believe that Bridget had a hand in it; not in the murders themselves, but in helping Lizzie clean up, dispose of the hatchet, etc.
That would have been nerve-wracking, keeping the hatchet one step ahead of the police!

Involving Bridget would certainly allow more clean-up time and a way to possibly dispose of the hatchet. Bridget might have been a bit conspicuous running down the street carrying a hatchet, though. It is possible that Bridget being afraid to go alone to find the bedsheets and her offer to look at Whitehead's for Abby were the result of a good acting job.
It's possible Bridget didn't know about Abby. Lizzie had plenty of time to clean herself up after she dispatched Abby. I just can't see Lizzie summoning Bridget so soon after killing Andrew. Either she didn't get a drop of blood on her, or Bridget heard something and came downstairs to investigate. Bridget may have been willing to help Lizzie cover things up, fearing that the blame might be put on her if she didn't. Lizzie may have told her outright that if she didn't help her, she'd tell them that she (Bridget) did it.

Anyway, I think it's possible that even if Bridget did help Lizzie clean things up, she still may not have realized that Abby might be dead, as well. She may have assumed that Abby went out somewhere. She was aware, I believe, of the note that Abby alledgedly received.

Once people started coming in, asking where Abby was, I think Bridget may have clued up pretty fast...and was probably afraid of what she'd find upstairs.
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Post by Kat »

I found the *starch* box in the Preliminary Hearing.
Bridget took the searchers to where the box was. However, there is no bench and the shelf was up high.
Maybe the bench you are thinking of was the one in the barn?

The contents ended up very near the floor where they were put. Again, no bench, sorry.

Here is a lot of testimony from the Prelim. Members might like it because not many people have the prelim:


Prelim
Bridget
Q. Beyond that was the furnace, going towards the front?
A. There was the furnace, and there was the door.
Q. This box in which the axes were, was near the front part of the cellar? That part of the cellar that is under the front part of the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who found those axes?
A. I could not tell you who the officers were; I was with them.
Q. How many were there?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. What kind of a box were they in?
A. A box we used to keep starch in, I think.
Q. That starch would come in?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Standing, with their heads down in the box, and their handles sticking up?
A. As near as I can remember.
Q. Can you tell how many there were?
A. No Sir, I saw them there; one of the officers took them.
Q. Did you see them up stairs?
A. No Sir, I do not remember.
Q. Did you see them on the table up stairs?
A. No Sir.
Q. Do you know what officer it was?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you know any one of the officers who went down stairs at the

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time you did?
A. No sir. They were all strangers to me; I did not know any of them.
..............

Prelim
Doherty
333
Q. Were you one of those who assisted in finding the hatchets?
A. I was there when the officer had the hatchet; I did not find it.
Q. And the axes?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What officer had it when you first saw it?
A. Mr. Mullaly.
Q. You did not see where he got it?
A. I did not see where he got it. I saw him take it from a shelf about as high as his head.
Q. Did you make any examination of the hatchet yourself?
A. I just looked over his shoulder at it, that is, stood by his side and looked at it.
...........
339
Q. Did you see Mr. Mullaly find the axes and hatchets?
A. Not when he found them.
Q. You saw him reaching up for them?
A. Yes. I turned to the left, and went over to the sink and I looked at this pail that was spoken of the other day.
Q. Which you do not rely upon now?
A. No Sir. Of course I called Mr. Mullaly’s attention to it. I was at that time probably 12 or 14 feet from Mr. Mullaly. He was looking at something in his hand. I walked over, and he had a hatchet. I just took and glanced at it, and said “that looks all right Mike”; something like that, and left him. The girl was standing with her hand about as high as her head.
Q. When you say “the girl”, you mean Miss Sullivan?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. I want the location of the place where you found the axes and the hatchets.
A. Near the furnace there.
Q. On the shelf?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So he had to reach up a little above the line of his shoulder to get them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were they in anything?
A. I could not say; I thought they were on a shelf; I could not say as there was anythingelse there.
Q. Do you know what he did with them?
A. He laid one down beside his feet, and came over and looked at the pail where I was.
Q. That would be in the part of the cellar near the foot of the stairs where he laid it down?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What became of the other three axes, if there were any?
A. I do not know; I was interrupted just at that time.
Q. Did you go back up stairs then?

Page 340

A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see him do anything more with the axes?
A. No Sir.
Q. How many did you see?
A. One.
Q. Only one axe?
A. One hatchet. I did not see any axes at all. I saw him looking at this one; it seemed to be a hatchet. I do not think the handle was more than 24 inches, something like that. He laid that right down by his feet there, and came over where I was.
Q. Give us as good a description as you can of that hatchet, because we cannot get at it just yet.
A. I cannot give an accurate description of that hatchet. I said “that looks all right Mike”. I thought it was a large blade for such a short handle; but anything more, I did not notice.
Q. Did you notice the head of it?
A. I did not.
Q. Could you tell whether it had a claw on the head of it or not?
A. No Sir, I would not say.
.......

344
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) Wont you tell me where you saw that hatchet taken from?
A. On the right near the furnace, near where the coal was. It was a shelf that ran east and west, I think, about five or six feet high. It seemed to me he put his hand right around the corner, like that, and took it down.
Q. Who put his hand up and got it?
A. The girl and Mr. Mullaly; they were both there, and were reaching up.
Q. Did you see any ax taken from there?
A. Not from there I did not.
.....

Mullaly
347

A. When I came down stairs, I met Bridget Sullivan, and then we went down stairs to look for the axes.
Q. Did Bridget go with you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What took place down there?
A. We went down cellar, and went along to the left.
Q. Did Bridget lead the way?
A. Bridget led the way to the left. We went in, and in a small box, I would not say whether it was a partition across there, or not, but she reached up, and took two hatchets out of this box, and passed them to me. We came out of there, and went into an apartment south of the furnace, I believe, or hot water heater, I believe it was. In there we found two axes. I took them down.
Q. Where were they?
A. They were on the south side of the cellar up against the wall. I would not say whether they were on a shelf, or whether there was something put there to hold them up. I know I reached up and took them down.
Q. Was this a covered box, these two hatchets were in?
A. No, the top was open.
Q. Did you take any notice of the hatchets when you got them down?
A. I did.
Q. What did you notice about them?
A. One was larger than the other.
Q. Anythingelse?
A. On the large one, there was a small rust spot.
Q. Anythingelse?
A. That was all I noticed. On the axes, both handles were covered with ashes.
Q. Anythingelse?
A. Then while I was in the wash room, I believe it was Mr. Doherty called my attention to some cloths in a pail.
Q. Skip them now. You looked at them?
A. We took them out, and looked at them, and put them back again. No, I wont say I put them back again.

Page 348

(Mr. Adams) You disclaim any connection?
(Mr. Knowlton) For this hearing to this Court, I make no claim about those things, whatever. I do not bind myself to any accidental future discoveries. So far as I am at present advised, I make no claim.
Q. Go on, Mr. Mullaly.
A. I left those axes on the cellar floor in the wash room.
Q. As you go down, you have a kind of walk there, and a passageway that leads right to the water closet, if I remember?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you go along that walk to go to the place where you found the hatchet, or steer off from there?
A. Go towards Second street.
Q. Go by the water closet?
A. No, just before you get to the water closet, on the south side of the house, we found those hatchets.
Q. In that room that is a passageway?
A. It looked to me like an alley way.
Q. The first thing you get into when you get down the cellar stairs is what I should call, the same as you do, an alley way; is that right?
A. Yes Sir, that is the way it looked to me.
Q. Was it in that alleyway you found those things?
A. No Sir, I found them in the cellar further to the southward.
Q. Which side of the house are the back steps on, the north side?
A. They are on the north side.
Q. You go right down cellar from that door; now where is the water closet, towards the street?
A. Towards the street.
Q. You do not go quite so far as the water closet, before you get to those hatchets?
A. Just before you get to the water closet, we went into this department in the cellar where there was a lot of wood piled up.
Q. That was a wood house then?
A. Yes Sir. We carried out the hatchets, and put them on the cellar floor.
Q. Hatchets and axes?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you afterwards see them in Mr. Dolan’s hands?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were they the same ones?
A. They were the same ones I carried out.

---The clawheaded hatchet was taken from the chopping block.
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Post by Kat »

BTW: Officer Hyde could not see from his vantage point what Lizzie was doing in front of the sink on her second trip down to the cellar, alone. She crouched down for probably less than a minute and at that point anything is conjecture.
It probably should be referred to that way.
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Post by Yooper »

SallyG @ Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:55 pm wrote:
Yooper @ Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:58 pm wrote:
SallyG @ Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:40 am wrote:If she did carry the hatchet back downstairs to the cellar, what did she do with it? One of the guards said he saw her stoop and thrust something under the sink. If there were loose boards in the cupboard and she put the hatchet under one of those, what happened to it afterward? Obviously, a thorough search was done. Someone removed it from it's hiding place. I know there was the hatchet head found in the box of hatchets by the chimney. But I don't believe any handle was found for it. Even if that was the hatchet, and the handle had been removed and burned, and the hatchet head placed in the box, who did it? I would think Lizzie was under enough scrutiny that she would have had a hard time finding an opportunity to do it.

On the other hand, could Lizzie have had some blood spattered garment hidden in the slop bucket that she stuffed under the sink cupboard? Does anyone know what was kept under the sink?

I still believe that Bridget had a hand in it; not in the murders themselves, but in helping Lizzie clean up, dispose of the hatchet, etc.
That would have been nerve-wracking, keeping the hatchet one step ahead of the police!

Involving Bridget would certainly allow more clean-up time and a way to possibly dispose of the hatchet. Bridget might have been a bit conspicuous running down the street carrying a hatchet, though. It is possible that Bridget being afraid to go alone to find the bedsheets and her offer to look at Whitehead's for Abby were the result of a good acting job.
It's possible Bridget didn't know about Abby. Lizzie had plenty of time to clean herself up after she dispatched Abby. I just can't see Lizzie summoning Bridget so soon after killing Andrew. Either she didn't get a drop of blood on her, or Bridget heard something and came downstairs to investigate. Bridget may have been willing to help Lizzie cover things up, fearing that the blame might be put on her if she didn't. Lizzie may have told her outright that if she didn't help her, she'd tell them that she (Bridget) did it.

Anyway, I think it's possible that even if Bridget did help Lizzie clean things up, she still may not have realized that Abby might be dead, as well. She may have assumed that Abby went out somewhere. She was aware, I believe, of the note that Abby alledgedly received.

Once people started coming in, asking where Abby was, I think Bridget may have clued up pretty fast...and was probably afraid of what she'd find upstairs.
That's a valid point, Bridget would only have been aware of Andrew's death at the time. She found out about Abby when everyone else did. That seemed to be a turning point of sorts. Mrs. Bowen is dismissed, Mrs. Churchill excuses herself and leaves shortly after. I don't seem to recall much about Bridget's activities after finding Abby. I think that just on face value, without taking the time to reason through it, people might think that two dead bodies were a bit too much to believe of a casual intruder. They would start adding things up.
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Post by Kat »

BTW2: I think the farm guys knew what axes and hatchets were owned by the Bordens.
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Post by SallyG »

Kat @ Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:28 pm wrote:BTW: Officer Hyde could not see from his vantage point what Lizzie was doing in front of the sink on her second trip down to the cellar, alone. She crouched down for probably less than a minute and at that point anything is conjecture.
It probably should be referred to that way.
Thank you, Kat. I thought I had read the statement that "she crouched down and thrust something under the sink"; something along those lines. It may have been in Lincoln's book.
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Post by Kat »

You're welcome.
Here is Hyde at the trial.
After this bit is his cross-exam.

Q. Where were you standing when you saw her?
A. I was standing on the east end of the house.

Q. Will you describe what you saw them do?
A. Miss Lizzie and Miss Russell came out of the sitting room. Miss Russell was carrying a small hand lamp. Miss Lizzie had a toilet pail. They came through the kitchen into the entryway, down the cellar stairs, into the cellar. Miss Russell, she stood at the foot of the steps with a lamp. Miss Lizzie went along the north side of the cellar to the water closet. She came from the water closet into the wash cellar, to the sink, and I heard something that sounded like water when she got there. She returned from there to where Miss

Page 835

Russell stood and they came upstairs, went back through the sitting room---through the kitchen into the sitting room.

Q. About what time in the evening was that?
A. That would be about fifteen minutes of nine.

Q. Did you see either of those persons later than that?
A. In a few minutes after, perhaps ten or fifteen minutes, Miss Lizzie came out of the same door, of the sitting room door, into the kitchen, in the same way, down into the cellar. She came into the wash cellar, and she puts her lamp on to a table on the west end of the cellar. She comes over to the east end of the house, where the sink is, and stooped down opposite to the sink. What she did I don't know.

Q. Was any one with her at that time?
A. She was all alone.

Q. How long did she stay in the cellar at that time?
A. It didn't take her above two minutes before she went upstairs again.

Q. At that time was there anything else in that wash cellar?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. What?
A. There was the clothes that had come off Mr. Borden and Mrs. Borden.

Q. You stayed there all night, did you?
A. I stayed there till about eleven o'clock.

Q. About how long was this second visit to the cellar after the visit in company with Miss Russell?
A. I should say about ten or fifteen minutes.

Page 836

--He does say it didn't take her above 2 minutes. I guess I had said about a minute.

[Edit here]: more trial testimony, Hyde- after the afternoon break:

Page 847

...

Q. How long did she stay there?
A. Oh, she wasn't there a minute.

Q. Half a minute, was she?
A. She wasn't there a minute, anyhow.

--I thought I had remembered that. :smile:
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Post by SallyG »

Kat @ Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:01 pm wrote:You're welcome.
Here is Hyde at the trial.
After this bit is his cross-exam.

Q. Where were you standing when you saw her?
A. I was standing on the east end of the house.

Q. Will you describe what you saw them do?
A. Miss Lizzie and Miss Russell came out of the sitting room. Miss Russell was carrying a small hand lamp. Miss Lizzie had a toilet pail. They came through the kitchen into the entryway, down the cellar stairs, into the cellar. Miss Russell, she stood at the foot of the steps with a lamp. Miss Lizzie went along the north side of the cellar to the water closet. She came from the water closet into the wash cellar, to the sink, and I heard something that sounded like water when she got there. She returned from there to where Miss

Page 835

Russell stood and they came upstairs, went back through the sitting room---through the kitchen into the sitting room.

Q. About what time in the evening was that?
A. That would be about fifteen minutes of nine.

Q. Did you see either of those persons later than that?
A. In a few minutes after, perhaps ten or fifteen minutes, Miss Lizzie came out of the same door, of the sitting room door, into the kitchen, in the same way, down into the cellar. She came into the wash cellar, and she puts her lamp on to a table on the west end of the cellar. She comes over to the east end of the house, where the sink is, and stooped down opposite to the sink. What she did I don't know.

Q. Was any one with her at that time?
A. She was all alone.

Q. How long did she stay in the cellar at that time?
A. It didn't take her above two minutes before she went upstairs again.

Q. At that time was there anything else in that wash cellar?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. What?
A. There was the clothes that had come off Mr. Borden and Mrs. Borden.

Q. You stayed there all night, did you?
A. I stayed there till about eleven o'clock.

Q. About how long was this second visit to the cellar after the visit in company with Miss Russell?
A. I should say about ten or fifteen minutes.

Page 836

--He does say it didn't take her above 2 minutes. I guess I had said about a minute.

[Edit here]: more trial testimony, Hyde- after the afternoon break:

Page 847

...

Q. How long did she stay there?
A. Oh, she wasn't there a minute.

Q. Half a minute, was she?
A. She wasn't there a minute, anyhow.

--I thought I had remembered that. :smile:
It's interesting to speculate what Lizzie could possibly have been doing. She apparently came empty handed this time, with only the lamp. Does anyone know whether there was a cabinet under the sink, or what might have been kept there? I can't remember.

Apparently her period was over, so she couldn't have been getting any menstrual rags. If anyone has been to the house, imagine going downstairs in the dark with only a lamp, past where the bodies were, down to the cellar with the lamp, past the pile of bloody clothes, to the sink. Then back upstairs. I, myself, can't imagine having the nerve to do it, especially after what had happened that day.

Lizzie could very well have had a totally innocent reason for doing so, and she may have had nerves of steel, but it just didn't look good.
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Post by Shelley »

Seems to me there is "bench" marked in Kieran's sketch of the cellar floorplan-that's where I got the idea. After an hour, I cannot seem to locate that floorplan of the cellar, but I know it was posted when we discussed the cellar.

It made an impression as I never knew about it before.
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Post by Kat »

I'm sorry you have taken an hour. It might be best to figure out which room these axes and hatchets came from. I am more proficient at where the HH was found and the claw-head hatchet, because they each, in their own time, were considered suspicious- if not the weapon.

There is a "bench" in the front cellar room noted on the east wall. There is another in the far northeast corner, in the room under the stairs. They are almost 3' off the ground and I don't think the implements were placed there.


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Post by Shelley »

Yes- good. I knew that diagram mentioned "bench", in fact, that is now on the house tour so I was concerned it was correct.

Bridget is pretty clear that the axes sticking handles out were in that front wood room where the bench is notated, in a box that starch came in.

The other bench appears to be in what was the fruit cellar and probably was used to put crocks of produce on like onions, potatoes, and such which needed to be stored cool and dark. Potatoes sprout "eyes" if exposed to light. Good- I was afraid I was losing my marbles and I have none to spare :lol:
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Post by Kat »

I think it is absolutely fascinating to ponder what Lizzie was doing in the cellar alone that night. No one knew she was down there except Officer Hyde, as he watched. I'm sure he reported it tho. If I were he I would call my fellow watchers over to see. I kind of expected him to do that but he doesn't say he did that.
It was the only thing odd reported that night. I'd think bored officers would be gathered round that lighted window!

Maybe Lizzie picked up something on the way to the cellar?
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Post by bobarth »

Perhaps she just needed to use the water closet. What if she just needed to go and all these people are watching her.
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Post by Kat »

She went into the water closet (to dump her pail) when Alice went down with her. This second visit only involved Lizzie going into the sink room.
The bloody clothing was there in the east* part of that room, but Hyde admits the pile was probably too far away from where she was.
. . . .
*Edit here- west part of the room (toward the street).
I am reviewing my contributions to this topic at this time.
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Post by Kat »

Shelley, after watching the video on TV tonight, I realized that you probably have seen all these videos a million times (with guests) and it might get confusing between those visuals and obscure references in source documents.
I don't know how you do it! I think it would be very hard separating odd facts!
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Post by RayS »

bobarth @ Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:59 am wrote:Perhaps she just needed to use the water closet. What if she just needed to go and all these people are watching her.
If you've ever had to spend a warm night with a potty, you'd know why going to the WC is better. IMO
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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time of Abbie's death questionable

Post by rgreen4411 »

Morse and Andrew's wheareabouts are accounted for only if one assumes Abbie died 90 minutes before Andrew. Suppose they died witin 5 minutes of each other. Then it is possible to argue Morse killed Abbie and then Andrew. Who flies into a murderous rage twice in one day and several hours apart? I say the timing of the two deaths is closer together than previously thought. I believe the author Masterton argues that point in his book.
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Post by Shelley »

Based on the progression of digestion of the food in the stomachs, the pooling of blood pattern settling in a corpse, and the bright red, fresh and free-flowing blood issuing from Andrew' s wounds and the dark, congealed blood of Abby's there is no possiblity that they could have been killed 5 minutes apart. The autopsy reports are in the Crime Library and can be read there. Naturally no smart coroner will try for more than about an hour margin in time of death because so many factors come into play in determining time of death from age, health, weight, room temp, heat sources in the room, etc.

But it was established that a substantial interval separated the two murders with Abby's likely placed somewhere between 9:15- 9:45 and Andrew's was right on the money (as people had seen him alive)- at about 11 a.m. The food digestion was key- and Abby's had not progressed near as far.
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Post by 1bigsteve »

If Abby was killed within 5 minutes of Andrew then why wasn't she seen between 9:00 and 11:00AM? What was she doing in that guest room all that time?

I think both murders were committed by someone in a "cool frame of mind", calculating, and not by someone in a "wild rage." I believe Abby was killed about 9:00ish or a little later and Andrew about 11:00ish. I think the Autopsy report brings that out very clearly and beyond any doubt in my mind.

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