Was Andrew gay?

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Kat
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Post by Kat »

Oh and to find that the family had *tea* Wednesday night. But I don't know when.

Lizzie
Inquest
81(38)
Q. Were you at tea Wednesday night?
A. I went down, but I think, I don't know, whether I had any tea or not.
Q. Did you sit down with the family?
A. I think I did, but I am not sure.
Q. Was Mr. Morse there?
A. No sir, I did not see him.
Q. Who were there to tea?
A. Nobody.
Q. The family were there, I suppose?
A. Yes, sir; I mean nobody but the family.

I posted this just now over at:
viewtopic.php?t=2469&start=175
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Post by rgreen4411 »

Try this experiment: Swallow ten kernals of unpopped pop corn with a glass of water. Write down the time and date you swallow them. Transit time through the intestines varies and can be a few days. In some cultures the transit time is half of that in the USA. Transit time is also influenced by medicines such as decongestants which dry out the intestines.
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Post by william »

It is a recognized fact in forensics that the rate of digestion varies from person to person.
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Post by rgreen4411 »

Yes, and we also know that the clotting time of blood varies from person to person. Ranging from the extreme of the hemophiliac to the person who gets a blood clot from sitting on an airplane. My entire theory is based upon assuming Andrew died shortly after Abby. My theory suggests Abby was killed when she surprised Morse in the act he committed in secret. Andrew attempted to intervene and sustained a closed head injury. He did not bleed, was dazed and staggered to the couch. Morse killed him because Andrew was a witness. Morse retrieved the note he wrote to get Abby out of the house. That is why the note was never found nor the person who delivered any note found.
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Post by Allen »

I made a call to the Allegheny County Coroners Office in Pittsburgh PA where I talked with a very patient medical examiner there. My questions were few as I didn't want to take up the mans time. I tried to be short and to the point. I asked about blood coagulation of the victim only. I"ll save stomach contents for another conversation as he sounded busy. :smile:

Q. About how long does it take for the blood to begin to coagulate after a person has become deceased?
A. Coagulation of the blood happens in stages and it varies from person to person. There are many factors that effect the rate of coagulation for each person. For example clotting factors must be taken into account as well as factors such as temperature. It also depends on the mechanism which set off the process.

Q. Is the level of blood coagulation an accurate way to fix time of death?
A. No it is not because of all the variables which can effect the rate of coagulation. It's not uncommon to find a body with coagulated blood in the veins, yet the heart has not coagulated. There are instances when the blood never coagulates.

Q. What is the most accurate means for fixing a time of death?
A. When attempting to establish a time of death no one method should be relied upon as being the most accurate or effective. A variety of indicators pertaining to the state of the deceased should be weighed together as a whole. But it would not be considered an exact science.
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Post by Shelley »

william @ Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:32 am wrote:It is a recognized fact in forensics that the rate of digestion varies from person to person.
Nobody can argue or is arguing that point, William- which is why you will only get a window of 2-4 hours for a stomach to empty completely, and 20-30 hours for food to go from the mouth. through the entire digestive track and empty out. Six hours is the figure you will get from smart forensics people as the time as an average food spends in the upper intestine. All of these times allow for variables in individual cases.

I take all the findings in this case together, even allowing for any potential variable, to agree with the finding that Abby predeceased her husband, and I do not believe the two autopsies are worthless. Along with blood evidence , even as primitive as we regard 1892 forensics now, Wood, Dolan, and some others present with training in such matters as homicide were both astute, observant and experienced .
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Post by rgreen4411 »

If Dolan were astute why did he cover Andrew with a sheet thus contaminating the crime scene and possibly altering the coagulation time frame? Why are all the times quoted by various police, witnesses, doctors always in round numbers? 11:15, 10:45, etc. These times are clearly approximations. I suggest Abby predeceased Andrew by a few minutes not by 90 minutes. She left the house in the morning after being sent out by a note Morse created. Morse later destroyed the note. If there was no note than Lizzie lied to both her father and to Bridget.
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Post by Shelley »

I'd be interested to read your evidence for why you think Abby died only a few moments before Andrew- very interested.

I am also intrigued to see some opinions which seem to suggest that medical doctors, coroners and police on the scene were all like the Keystone Cops and their findings of so little value compared with what can be found today on Google. We have what we have to work with, and 115 years later, it is probably all we will ever have to work with.
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Post by rgreen4411 »

Wow! the number of posts to our discussion places it at the top. Is anyone out there willing to play the devil's advocate and argue my theory? Was Andrew gay? And involved with Morse who was ten years younger? Was a brief rendevous in the guest bedroom planned for that fatal day? Did Abby walk in on them? Did Morse write the note no one ever found?
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Post by rgreen4411 »

There is no valid scientific evidence showing the time of Abby's death. Few if any killers have viciously slaughtered someone in a close up and personal way like chopping and then 90 minutes later performed an encore. As for the Keystone Cops, it is unlikely the Fall River police and doctors had ever handled a case like this before. The lab experts in the OJ Simpson case managed to lose vials of blood. People make mistakes and cover up their bungling all the time. Disgruntled employees at the Center for Disease Control complained about people leaving there lunches in the same fridge as the lab specimens.
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Post by RayS »

Allen @ Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:17 pm wrote:
RayS @ Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:15 pm wrote: One mystery novel posed an interesting question. If the person in a hotel room ordered steak, potatoes, salad, and peas, but her stomach had steak, potatoes, salad, and corn, what would this mean?
I would take this to mean that corn take a longer time to digest. It stays in the system longer and is harder to breakdown, therefore it was still present in the system.
Actually, this was taken from a mystery novel. I won't give anything away.
But if food is delivered to a hotel room, can we assume the person who rented the room was the one who ordered it? What if there was some secret meeting?
"Perry Mason and the Case of ..."
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Post by RayS »

rgreen4411 @ Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:50 am wrote:Yes, and we also know that the clotting time of blood varies from person to person. Ranging from the extreme of the hemophiliac to the person who gets a blood clot from sitting on an airplane. My entire theory is based upon assuming Andrew died shortly after Abby. My theory suggests Abby was killed when she surprised Morse in the act he committed in secret. Andrew attempted to intervene and sustained a closed head injury. He did not bleed, was dazed and staggered to the couch. Morse killed him because Andrew was a witness. Morse retrieved the note he wrote to get Abby out of the house. That is why the note was never found nor the person who delivered any note found.
Aren't you making this all up from a fevered imagination?

Maybe you should write a book and not post here?
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Post by Shelley »

Actually hatchet killings were nothing new to Fall River. You may recall the Bertha Manchester case. And there are others as well- not as sensational as the Borden case.
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive04 ... ilbert.htm
Was Andrew gay- well, you are entitled to your theories, as is Arnold Brown but I will try to work out something based on known documents and evidence. I also have some respect for medical opinions and observations rendered by Dr. Wood of Harvard Medical School , and of Dr. Dolan, whose experience in such matters, even in 1892, far outweigh my own.
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Post by RayS »

Allen @ Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:27 pm wrote:I made a call to the Allegheny County Coroners Office in Pittsburgh PA where I talked with a very patient medical examiner there. My questions were few as I didn't want to take up the mans time. I tried to be short and to the point. I asked about blood coagulation of the victim only. I"ll save stomach contents for another conversation as he sounded busy. :smile:
Q. About how long does it take for the blood to begin to coagulate after a person has become deceased?
...
I think you should have asked about coagulation from a person hacked to death when the blood runs out to the floor.
Alcohol is one element in non-coagulation (See Bill Holden). None in the two victims. That answer seems to be about coagulation of blood in the body.

An older relative of mine told me it takes about 40-45 minutes for the blood from a killed deer to coagulate on the ground. This during cold temperatures, which affects chemical reactions. Oxidized blood.
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Post by RayS »

Shelley @ Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:16 pm wrote:Actually hatchet killings were nothing new to Fall River. You may recall the Bertha Manchester case. And there are others as well- not as sensational as the Borden case.
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive04 ... ilbert.htm
Was Andrew gay- well, you are entitled to your theories, as is Arnold Brown but I will try to work out something based on known documents and evidence. I also have some respect for medical opinions and observations rendered by Dr. Wood of Harvard Medical School , and of Dr. Dolan, whose experience in such matters, even in 1892, far outweigh my own.
The simple and correct answer is: no evidence outside of one person's imagination.
I won't comment on what caused this person's question.
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Post by RayS »

diana @ Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:01 pm wrote:...
I'm not saying Abby didn't die before Andrew. But I think the more likely reason to believe she did predecease her husband is not the analysis of her stomach contents but rather that no one admits seeing her after 9 a.m.
Over the centuries, with varying levels of technical knowledge, one important marker for TOD remains the same (Time Of Death).
When was the victim last seen alive?

Abby was last seen alive about 9:15 am, but not alive after this (as I remember it).
Andrew was last seen alive about 10:45 am (as I remember it).

Those are round numbers, of course.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Post by william »

I believe when rgreen4411, suggests an opinion involving the forensics of the Borden case, we should all listen respectfully - Ms. Green is a registerd nurse and is probably more qualifed to draw conclusions in this area than most of us.

However, when she elects to travel down a highway of speculation I believe somone should take it upon themselves to inform her that she needs a new road map.
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Post by rgreen4411 »

Thank you, William. Are not all of the theories based partly upon speculation? Those who consider Lizzie innocent are still unable to explain the note. Lizzie told Bridget Abby received a note which summoned her out of the house. Those who consider Lizzie guilty are unable to explain the absence of blood on her person. Ask any psychiatrist and they will tell you single males over the age of fifty are the least stable members of society. Of the key players in that household Morse was the one most physically capable of violence. Author Masterton suggests Abby did indeed leave the house and did indeed receive a note. I then pose the question suppose Morse wrote the note? Suppose he and Andrew were intimate? Suppose Abby came back? Hell has no fury like the wrath of a woman scorned.
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Post by rgreen4411 »

Do real men drink Garfield Tea? Just joking.
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Post by william »

With all due respect, well founded theories are usually based upon speculation that involves, evidence, reasoning and sound judgment. For example: To say thet Morse was the most physically capable of violence, wrote"the note," and that he had sexual relations with Andrew (!) does not meet the above criteria.
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Intimacy happens!

Post by rgreen4411 »

Andrew and Morse may have been involved with one another for years. That is not unusual. They may have planned a few minutes of intimacy the morning of the murder. All went well until Abby arrived unexpectedly. Abby could have returned at 10:40, surprised the men and unwittingly provoked violence. From 10:40 to 11:00 am is plenty of time for a little hanky panky and two murders. Morse then rmay have ridden a bike back to his neice's house and changed the clocks. His return trip on the bus is suspicious. He went to the trouble of memorizing many small details of his trip.
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Post by rgreen4411 »

I added my birth date to my profile and the website automatically entered a zodiac sign for me! It is against my religion to acknowledge zodiac. How can I protest this?
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Post by bobarth »

rgreen4411 @ Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:59 pm wrote:I added my birth date to my profile and the website automatically entered a zodiac sign for me! It is against my religion to acknowledge zodiac. How can I protest this?
Hi rgreen4411

No disrespect but was wondering what religion? Religion fascinates me and was just wondering?
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Post by diana »

Allen @ Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:27 am wrote:I made a call to the Allegheny County Coroners Office in Pittsburgh PA where I talked with a very patient medical examiner there. My questions were few as I didn't want to take up the mans time. I tried to be short and to the point. I asked about blood coagulation of the victim only. I"ll save stomach contents for another conversation as he sounded busy. :smile:
Your post is a great addition to the file on Borden forensics. Thank you for sharing your investigation with us and here's hoping your contact is receptive to more questions at a later date. Sources like that are golden.
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Post by Nadzieja »

:shock: Wow, what a theory. I've read all the posts since and just want to say that I know that not that long ago in the military you could be sent to prison for being gay. That on top of an unhonorable discharge. So I'm sure back in 1892 this was hidden, as much if not more so than incest. Also I'm sure being labled a spinster for Lizzie who wanted to be in society was very devastating. My husband had 2 aunts & 1 uncle who never married and lived all their life in the same house they were born. They all lived to be over 70. One of the aunts seemed very bitter and was very prone to anger if something didn't go quite as she wanted. She also had this stare that could stop you cold. During their younger days I'm sure there was pressure to be married also, but not quite as much as in Lizzie's day. I can see her just being miserable day after day and finally just snapping. I'm sure by Lizzie's 30's her hopes of marrying to get out of that house must have been dashed.
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Post by Nadzieja »

:shock: Wow, what a theory. I've read all the posts since and just want to say that I know that not that long ago in the military you could be sent to prison for being gay. That on top of an unhonorable discharge. So I'm sure back in 1892 this was hidden, as much if not more so than incest. Also I'm sure being labled a spinster for Lizzie who wanted to be in society was very devastating. My husband had 2 aunts & 1 uncle who never married and lived all their life in the same house they were born. They all lived to be over 70. One of the aunts seemed very bitter and was very prone to anger if something didn't go quite as she wanted. She also had this stare that could stop you cold. During their younger days I'm sure there was pressure to be married also, but not quite as much as in Lizzie's day. I can see her just being miserable day after day and finally just snapping. I'm sure by Lizzie's 30's her hopes of marrying to get out of that house must have been dashed.
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Post by Nadzieja »

Harry @ Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:31 pm wrote:I don't remember the Kingston Trio recording it but do remember the Chad Mitchell Trio. You can read all the words on Mondo Lizzie at:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/MondoLizz ... r-hoedown/

As a special treat you can see it performed in New Faces of 1952 also on Mondo Lizzie at:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/MondoLizz ... s-of-1954/

Enjoy! The actress portraying Lizzie is hilarious.
Thank you So much Harry!! I saw another song by the Chad Mitchell Trio called Ballad of Lizzie Borden. I'm tying to download it. Is this the same song?
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Post by Harry »

I believe that it is the same song. There is only this one song that I know of. A version was recorded by English singer, Alma Colgan.

I remember reading somewhere that another English group (The Crickets?) also recorded it. No, not Buddy Holly and the Crickets. :grin:
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
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Post by DWilly »

rgreen4411 @ Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:22 pm wrote:If Dolan were astute why did he cover Andrew with a sheet thus contaminating the crime scene and possibly altering the coagulation time frame? Why are all the times quoted by various police, witnesses, doctors always in round numbers? 11:15, 10:45, etc. These times are clearly approximations. I suggest Abby predeceased Andrew by a few minutes not by 90 minutes. She left the house in the morning after being sent out by a note Morse created. Morse later destroyed the note. If there was no note than Lizzie lied to both her father and to Bridget.

I found this in the Knowlton Papers on page 209. It's a memoranda. It follows a rather lengthy letter by Draper HK200 dated May 28, 1893. I assume he wrote the memoranda too. It says:

I. As to the condition of the blood in the two cases. At about 11:45 o'clock, fluid, from Mr. Borden's wounds, was "dropping" from the sofa to the floor; there was no clot in sight.

A "few minutes later" , the blood on the carpet on which Mrs. Borden's head lay was observed by Dr. Dolan to be clotted.

"In man, blood when shed, becomes viscid in about two or three minutes and enters the jelly stage in about five or ten minutes. Coagulation is generally complete in from one to several hours. The time will be found to vary according to the condition of the individual, the temperature of the air and the size and form of the vessel into which the blood is shed" Foster Physiology, pg. 38.

II. As to the retention of the body heat in the two cases. Mr. Borden's body when first inspected was nearly as warm as in life. Mrs. Borden's body was cold to the sense of touch at nearly the same time.




I'm now going by memory, but I seem to recall a post way back on another thread where someone said he and another poster saw a really good photo of Abby on the floor and that the blood was really thick.


I think looking at the evidence Abby was indeed killed quite sometime before Andrew.
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Post by RayS »

rgreen4411 @ Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:10 pm wrote:Thank you, William. Are not all of the theories based partly upon speculation? Those who consider Lizzie innocent are still unable to explain the note. Lizzie told Bridget Abby received a note which summoned her out of the house. Those who consider Lizzie guilty are unable to explain the absence of blood on her person. Ask any psychiatrist and they will tell you single males over the age of fifty are the least stable members of society. Of the key players in that household Morse was the one most physically capable of violence. Author Masterton suggests Abby did indeed leave the house and did indeed receive a note. I then pose the question suppose Morse wrote the note? Suppose he and Andrew were intimate? Suppose Abby came back? Hell has no fury like the wrath of a woman scorned.
Nonsense!!!
A theory is a way to describe something that you didn't witness. If the streets are covered with snow in the morning, the theory is that it snowed at night even if you didn't see it.
If you are an RN, you might be exceeding the limits of your knowledge. Are you able to testify in court as an expert? Why?
Please note we had somebody on this site who claimed certain things that were not provable. Even if there is an "R Green" nurse (zip code 4411?) we have no way of knowing if you are that person. (Suspicious again.)

The proof of Lizzie's innocence is her acquittal in a Trial. QED
No blood spatter, no murder weapon = not guilty. Bridget too.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Post by RayS »

rgreen4411 @ Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:10 pm wrote:...
Ask any psychiatrist and they will tell you single males over the age of fifty are the least stable members of society.
...
Are you trying to tell us something about yourself?
I'm reading between the lines for this, but considering all your posts on this topic. Your obsession with this topic seems sort of odd. IMO
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Post by Haulover »

***I'm now going by memory, but I seem to recall a post way back on another thread where someone said he and another poster saw a really good photo of Abby on the floor and that the blood was really thick. ***

________________

yes. i saw it. it made me think of glue. the superior quality of the print revealed this in a way i had never quite seen.
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Post by RayS »

Given the low speed and resolution, and high graininess, could that 1892 picture have been "improved" or manipulated?
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Post by Nadzieja »

To DWilly, Please can you tell me where you were able to locate a copy of the Knowlton Papers. I have been searching for that for quite awhile without any success. I even emailed the Fall River Historical Society & asked if they were considering reprinting, but did not get a reply.
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Post by DWilly »

Nadzieja @ Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:36 pm wrote:To DWilly, Please can you tell me where you were able to locate a copy of the Knowlton Papers. I have been searching for that for quite awhile without any success. I even emailed the Fall River Historical Society & asked if they were considering reprinting, but did not get a reply.

I went through my local library. They offer a service where if they don't have a book they can go to libraries around the country and order it. It's called an Interlibrary loan. I did this with a few Lizzie books. The Knowlton Papers I have is hard bound like any other book. It was published by the Fall River Historical Society 1994. It came from the Wardman Library at Whitter College. The call number is: KF 223 B6C65
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Post by Angel »

I'm going to put this topic to rest once and for all- Andrew was NOT gay---he was somber and taciturn. :wink:
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Post by Kat »

That's a good one! We do have anecdotal proof of that, at least!
:smile:
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Post by Kat »

Stef had a chance to examine the primary photograph, which is larger than the one on display. There are things to be seen in that photo apparently, that we are not aware of due to our own copy's resolution.
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Post by theebmonique »

RayS @ Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:57 am wrote:
rgreen4411 @ Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:10 pm wrote:...
Ask any psychiatrist and they will tell you single males over the age of fifty are the least stable members of society.
...
Are you trying to tell us something about yourself?
I'm reading between the lines for this, but considering all your posts on this topic. Your obsession with this topic seems sort of odd. IMO
Gee Ray...your comments seem like a case of the pot calling the kettle black.





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Post by Nadzieja »

Kat @ Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:00 pm wrote:Stef had a chance to examine the primary photograph, which is larger than the one on display. There are things to be seen in that photo apparently, that we are not aware of due to our own copy's resolution.
I've seen that photo of Abby in the books and I have to say something always bothered me about that picture and the one of Andrew. The murder was so violent that it just seems to me that Abby wouldn't be laying down so "neatly", that's the only way I know how to put it. Her feet are almost together. It would seem her body should be almost sprawled out. Then on the photo of Andrew, again being hit so violently and so many times, I'm surprised his body didn't end up on the floor. :?: I haven't really seen many real crime scene photos, and I doubt they would have posed the bodies for the pictures. It's just an observation I don't have any facts or forensic testing its just an opinion.
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Post by Kat »

I've always *seen* Abbie's feet turned toward the window in the sideways view. But that portion is in *white-out* in our copy.
The weirder thing is, I think the first photo is the one taken from the foot of the bed! How can we explain a photo of possible *decorum*- Abbie's feet striaght up and down- and then the 2nd photo be with her feet turned to her left?

In the Preliminary Hearing, pg. 196, Dr. Dolan specifies the photographs that were taken of the crime scenes, and describes the order in which they were taken:

#1 pic=Abby slightly moved
#2 pic=Abby with bed removed (side shot)
#3 pic= Abby with bed put back again
#4 pic= Abby downstairs
#5 pic=Andrew unmoved


Is it possible that the photo of Abbie with her feet straight up and down (mostly) is the 3rd photo?
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Post by RayS »

Angel @ Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:36 pm wrote:I'm going to put this topic to rest once and for all- Andrew was NOT gay---he was somber and taciturn. :wink:
"Gay" has a number of meanings, like most words.
Gay can mean sexually promiscuous, like "Gay Paree" or the Gay 90s (?).
IT can mean nervous and excited, like a "gay dog" (?).
It is also a eupemism for a homosexual male (or female?).

Lighthearted is the oldest and purest meaning, like "When Out Hearts were Young and Gay" (book title?).

WE know what that person meant by "gay". Next question, is it a female or a male who is posting? And why?
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Post by RayS »

Nadzieja @ Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:21 pm wrote:
Kat @ Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:00 pm wrote:Stef had a chance to examine the primary photograph, which is larger than the one on display. There are things to be seen in that photo apparently, that we are not aware of due to our own copy's resolution.
I've seen that photo of Abby in the books and I have to say something always bothered me about that picture and the one of Andrew. The murder was so violent that it just seems to me that Abby wouldn't be laying down so "neatly", that's the only way I know how to put it. Her feet are almost together. It would seem her body should be almost sprawled out. Then on the photo of Andrew, again being hit so violently and so many times, I'm surprised his body didn't end up on the floor. :?: I haven't really seen many real crime scene photos, and I doubt they would have posed the bodies for the pictures. It's just an observation I don't have any facts or forensic testing its just an opinion.
Obviously (?) the people there did handle Abby's body before the photograph. I doubt that Andy's body was similarly modified.

Hence, comments on the photos may be off the mark. Rigor mortis may explain Andy's clenched fists, or posture. (I really don't know.)

PS I think the white-out is over-exposure from the outside window.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Post by Smudgeman »

The pictures have always bothered me. Abby looks like she layed down to take a nap. She appears as though she was dead after the first blow. No struggle, no defense wounds. Andrew as well looks posed. I doubt his body would be sitting upright after blows to the head.
I have seen other crime scene photos, and these are tame considering the violence involved. One would expect to see their bodies sprawled out in a contorted position at the very least. So, it's really left to who you believe would pose the bodies? Either the photographer or the killer. I choose the photographer.
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Post by RayS »

James Neff's book "The Wrong Man" comments on the pictures of Marilyn Sheppard on her bed, and the arranged pajamas. This was used as a reason to say Dr. Sam did it, when in reality someone else arranged the pajamas.

I wonder if the photo of Abby accurately shows her position when found? Not that it would make much difference. I believe they found a wound in her back, so deep it would be fatal. That could've been the first wound, she slumped to the ground and the murderer hacked away at her face.

Correct this if my memory has failed.
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Post by sguthmann »

Smudgeman @ Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:24 pm wrote:The pictures have always bothered me. Abby looks like she layed down to take a nap. She appears as though she was dead after the first blow. No struggle, no defense wounds. Andrew as well looks posed. I doubt his body would be sitting upright after blows to the head.
I have seen other crime scene photos, and these are tame considering the violence involved. One would expect to see their bodies sprawled out in a contorted position at the very least. So, it's really left to who you believe would pose the bodies? Either the photographer or the killer. I choose the photographer.
Consider this: what if the murderer, having caused an incapacitated Abby to collapse upon the floor from the blows, then decides to move her around to the side of the bed where she will not be noticed (until the murderer wants her noticed), effectively "buying time" for the murderer to finish off his/her deadly plans for the couple? Finishes Abby off with a few more blows for good measure after she's lying prone between the dresser and bed, and awaits #2? Perhaps the murderer didn't want to take a chance that Abby might just be discovered before s/he was ready for that to happen? Maybe the murderer felt it important for Lizzie to have plausible deniability when she'd recall that she'd been up and downstairs without ever noticing Abby?

The position of the body, the narrow area between the dresser and bed (not condusive to swinging away?), the tidyness of the area immediately around the body (items on dresser all sitting upright in place, bedspread doesn't appear to be askew), and the blows to the front and side of her face make me VERY leery to accept that Abby's body was found - and photographed - where it "naturally" fell after being assaulted by the murderous blows.

I believe the carpet in the room was a dark floral pattern, and I believe the only portion actually removed and examined was the area immediately around her head...but what if there were other splatters of blood on the carpet that were missed? Evidence that might have helped explain where Abby was in the room when she was first attacked? I remember talk of drops found in a few other areas of the room not within that space between the bed and dresser.

So taking the theory that Abby was intentionally placed where she was found by the person who'd killed her, the question is "why bother?" The only reasons I can come up with is that s/he was not yet done with the deed s/he had set out to do (there was at least one more that had to die before the task would be over), and so it was important to conceal the first murder so as not to raise an alarm that would have put the second in jeopardy of being carried out - and/or - it was important that Lizzie be able to come and go on the stairs and have some reason why she would not have seen her stepmother's dead body. Perhaps the room was even neatened up by the murderer, so as to further conceal that anything out of the ordinary had occurred? I find all of this very likely. What do others think?
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Post by Kat »

Well, the bed was unmade and searched and then the covers were thrown back up before the picture was taken, so that was a disturbance that does not show up in the photo.

I would think there were things that did not show up in the photos- but nothing outstanding that was described by anyone there at the time. (Including blood in any other place in the room other than immediately around the body.) - the only other place blood was noted was at the washstand, which usually was near the door, on the south side of the room to the west of the door.
If they moved the bed itself, different small things could have been moved- we just don't know. They did remove two chairs from the area before the pictures were taken.

I also think that Lizzie sounded sincere when she claimed that door to the guest room was closed. That is a good way to *hide* Abbie, whether she was killed where she was found or not.
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Post by Kat »

Way back when, some of us got some camp chairs together from the Internet (Susan was one) and I made fake fotos of where the chairs would have been, from testimony. If anyone thinks Abbie died in a small space, check this!
This is with *bed removed.* The scale of the chair is probably close, but certainly not exact.


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Post by Kat »

Other view, fake foto-KK
The rocker by the window might have *faced* the sewing machine, but the space it takes is probably (approx.) about right.


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reply to Bobarth

Post by rgreen4411 »

In response to your question about my religion. I am a born again Christian. I believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God and He died on the cross to redeem you and me from the penalty of sin. Christ was resurrected three days after His death and ascended to Heaven. The Old Testment forbids us to have anything to do with star gazing, etc. and that includes the Zodiac. Thank you for asking. It is a blessing to be able to share my faith.
For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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