Was Andrew gay?

[rgreen4411]

10:45 AM Andrew returns home. He does not have his key to the front door. Bridget lets him in. Lizzie goes to the barn. Bridget washes windows and then goes upstairs.

10:46 AM Morse returns. Using Andrew's missing key he lets himself in the front door.

10:47 Andrew and Morse enter the guest room and lock the door.

10:49 Abby returns home and discovers Morse and Andrew.

10:50 Morse kills Abby.

10:52 Morse kills Andrew.

10:53 Morse takes the note he wrote and leaves by the front door. Once outside he groans. This is the groan Lizzie heard. Morse locks the front door. Morse bicycles to the Emery's and acts like he never left. His brief absence was unnoticed.

11:30 Morse leaves the Emery's. He does not arrive at the Bordens until noon. (Did he leave luggage at a nearby friend's house and go their to change?) David Kent says on page 23 of Forty Whacks, "Amazingly Morse could trace his movements minute by minute and street by street, including the number of the trolley he had ridden and the number on the cap of the conductor who had driven it. His rememberances would suit a casebook on alibis. When he returned at noon Morse failed to notice several hundred people massed in front of the Borden house". Showing no curiosity Morse ambles to the back yard and eats pears. I say he was using the over ripe very moist pears to remove blood from his skin.

[rgreen4411]

My theory has received 39 whacks. Should I give up?

[theebmonique]

For the life of me, I cannot imagine that the only thing Andrew was careless with was his extra-marital sex life ? I think this story is just that...a story...and a far-fetched one at that. A few lines quoted (and in my opinion twisted) from Kent...but nothing substantial. Do you have court testimony, or something from Rebello to back up your idea ?





Tracy...

[Smudgeman]

Let us not forget that Andrew and the rest of the family were not feeling well. Do you think Andrew would be thinking about having sex with a truss on and suffering from a hernia?

[shakiboo]

Let us not forget that Andrew and the rest of the family were not feeling well. Do you think Andrew would be thinking about having sex with a truss on and suffering from a hernia?

Wow! Wish I'd have thought of that!!

[rgreen4411]

Andrew was not that uncomfortable. He was able to stoop over and pick up a broken lock which he carried home. He emptied his own chamber pot the morning of the crime and also brought in some pears from outside.
He went about his errands walking to various places. Why wasn't John Morse ill? He ate with the family the evening before, did he not?

[rgreen4411]

Well, Andrew was also careless about the front door key. If the Bordens really were worried about strangers, etc, why did he lose or forget his key? Or did he give the key to Morse so they could rendevous later that day? And is it not careless to insist your family eat decayed mutton? Even after the doctor has warned this is why they are sick? Is it not careless to associate with someone like John Morse? A man who shows up unexpectedly for an extended visit with no luggage, change of clothes or toothbrush? A 59 year old man freshly enlightened from his visit to the fortune teller? Class act that one. Andrew may have had early senility with brief episodes of poor judgment.

[theebmonique]

So he forgets his key once in a while...that does not seem careless. He seemed to be frugal and tight-fisted, I believe Andrew's frugality is what made him demand the mutton be served.

When exactly did Dr. Bowen say the mutton was making them sick before they ate it that last time ??





Tracy...

[Kat]

I'm sorry but there are a few errors and misconstructions here going on and on, I feel like I should point these out.
I didn't want to.

Actually, I'm a bit surprised that other's haven't caught a few of these either?

[Kat]

You all can start with this missing key?
Please give the source for this, without using Kent.
Thanks.

[Harry]

I'm sorry but there are a few errors and misconstructions here going on and on, I feel like I should point these out.
I didn't want to.

Actually, I'm a bit surprised that other's haven't caught a few of these either?

I've been too busy picturing Uncle John bicycling along Pleasant Street to the Emery's. I would have paid to see that. Where did he get the bike?

And then he changes the clocks at the Emery's?

Beam me up, Scotty.

[DWilly]

10:45 AM Andrew returns home. He does not have his key to the front door. Bridget lets him in. Lizzie goes to the barn. Bridget washes windows and then goes upstairs.

10:46 AM Morse returns. Using Andrew's missing key he lets himself in the front door.

10:47 Andrew and Morse enter the guest room and lock the door.

10:49 Abby returns home and discovers Morse and Andrew.

10:50 Morse kills Abby.

10:52 Morse kills Andrew.

10:53 Morse takes the note he wrote and leaves by the front door. Once outside he groans. This is the groan Lizzie heard. Morse locks the front door. Morse bicycles to the Emery's and acts like he never left. His brief absence was unnoticed.

11:30 Morse leaves the Emery's. He does not arrive at the Bordens until noon. (Did he leave luggage at a nearby friend's house and go their to change?) David Kent says on page 23 of Forty Whacks, "Amazingly Morse could trace his movements minute by minute and street by street, including the number of the trolley he had ridden and the number on the cap of the conductor who had driven it. His rememberances would suit a casebook on alibis. When he returned at noon Morse failed to notice several hundred people massed in front of the Borden house". Showing no curiosity Morse ambles to the back yard and eats pears. I say he was using the over ripe very moist pears to remove blood from his skin.

Ok, let me look at this in two parts. First, your time line. According to your theory you think that in less then ten minutes the following events happened:

1 Andrew and Morse went up stairs, dropped their drawers and started doing whatever.

2. Abby entered the room. A scene broke out.

3. Morse went to the cellar, found a hatchet, went back upstairs, wacked Abby to death.

4. For whatever reason Andrew stopped none of this but instead went downstairs and sat on the sofa.

5. Morse went downstairs and wacked Andrew. No sign of a struggle. Even though, Andrew had just seen Morse kill Abby.

6. Morse then miraculously finds a bike. Perhaps he Swiped it from some passing child.

7. Morse rode the bike back to Emery's house. Unseen by one and all.

How old was Morse?


Now the second part:

1. You ignore all of what was shown in the autopsy. Which showed there was clearly more than a minute or two between Abby's death and Andrew's

2. You don't logically explain how no one noticed Morse was gone for almost forty minutes. You just say it was a "brief absence." Forty minutes is brief?

3. You choose to create/make-up a friend where Morse can change his bloody clothes. I guess the "friend" just happened to have clean clothes in Morse's size.

[DWilly]

10:45 AM Andrew returns home. He does not have his key to the front door. Bridget lets him in. Lizzie goes to the barn. Bridget washes windows and then goes upstairs.

10:46 AM Morse returns. Using Andrew's missing key he lets himself in the front door.

10:47 Andrew and Morse enter the guest room and lock the door.

10:49 Abby returns home and discovers Morse and Andrew.

10:50 Morse kills Abby.

10:52 Morse kills Andrew.

10:53 Morse takes the note he wrote and leaves by the front door. Once outside he groans. This is the groan Lizzie heard. Morse locks the front door. Morse bicycles to the Emery's and acts like he never left. His brief absence was unnoticed.

11:30 Morse leaves the Emery's. He does not arrive at the Bordens until noon. (Did he leave luggage at a nearby friend's house and go their to change?) David Kent says on page 23 of Forty Whacks, "Amazingly Morse could trace his movements minute by minute and street by street, including the number of the trolley he had ridden and the number on the cap of the conductor who had driven it. His rememberances would suit a casebook on alibis. When he returned at noon Morse failed to notice several hundred people massed in front of the Borden house". Showing no curiosity Morse ambles to the back yard and eats pears. I say he was using the over ripe very moist pears to remove blood from his skin.

Ok, let me look at this in two parts. First, your time line. According to your theory you think that in less then ten minutes the following events happened:

1 Andrew and Morse went up stairs, dropped their drawers and started doing whatever.

2. Abby entered the room. A scene broke out.

3. Morse went to the cellar, found a hatchet, went back upstairs, wacked Abby to death.

4. For whatever reason Andrew stopped none of this but instead went downstairs and sat on the sofa.

5. Morse went downstairs and wacked Andrew. No sign of a struggle. Even though, Andrew had just seen Morse kill Abby.

6. Morse then miraculously finds a bike. Perhaps he Swiped it from some passing child.

7. Morse rode the bike back to Emery's house. Unseen by one and all.

How old was Morse?


Now the second part:

1. You ignore all of what was shown in the autopsy. Which showed there was clearly more than a minute or two between Abby's death and Andrew's

2. You don't logically explain how no one noticed Morse was gone for almost forty minutes. You just say it was a "brief absence." Forty minutes is brief?

3. You choose to create/make-up a friend where Morse can change his bloody clothes. I guess the "friend" just happened to have clean clothes in Morse's size.


From here on out I am going to assume this thread is just for fun.

[DWilly]

10:45 AM Andrew returns home. He does not have his key to the front door. Bridget lets him in. Lizzie goes to the barn. Bridget washes windows and then goes upstairs.

10:46 AM Morse returns. Using Andrew's missing key he lets himself in the front door.

10:47 Andrew and Morse enter the guest room and lock the door.

10:49 Abby returns home and discovers Morse and Andrew.

10:50 Morse kills Abby.

10:52 Morse kills Andrew.

10:53 Morse takes the note he wrote and leaves by the front door. Once outside he groans. This is the groan Lizzie heard. Morse locks the front door. Morse bicycles to the Emery's and acts like he never left. His brief absence was unnoticed.

11:30 Morse leaves the Emery's. He does not arrive at the Bordens until noon. (Did he leave luggage at a nearby friend's house and go their to change?) David Kent says on page 23 of Forty Whacks, "Amazingly Morse could trace his movements minute by minute and street by street, including the number of the trolley he had ridden and the number on the cap of the conductor who had driven it. His rememberances would suit a casebook on alibis. When he returned at noon Morse failed to notice several hundred people massed in front of the Borden house". Showing no curiosity Morse ambles to the back yard and eats pears. I say he was using the over ripe very moist pears to remove blood from his skin.

Ok, let me look at this in two parts. First, your time line. According to your theory you think that in less then ten minutes the following events happened:

1 Andrew and Morse went up stairs, dropped their drawers and started doing whatever.

2. Abby entered the room. A scene broke out.

3. Morse went to the cellar, found a hatchet, went back upstairs, wacked Abby to death.

4. For whatever reason Andrew stopped none of this but instead went downstairs and sat on the sofa.

5. Morse went downstairs and wacked Andrew. No sign of a struggle. Even though, Andrew had just seen Morse kill Abby.

6. Morse then miraculously finds a bike. Perhaps he Swiped it from some passing child.

7. Morse rode the bike back to Emery's house. Unseen by one and all.

How old was Morse?


Now the second part:

1. You ignore all of what was shown in the autopsy. Which showed there was clearly more than a minute or two between Abby's death and Andrew's

2. You don't logically explain how no one noticed Morse was gone for almost forty minutes. You just say it was a "brief absence." Forty minutes is brief?

3. You choose to create/make-up a friend where Morse can change his bloody clothes. I guess the "friend" just happened to have clean clothes in Morse's size.


I assume this thread is just for fun. In the words of that great sage John McEnroe "You Can't be serious?"

[rgreen4411]

MY THEORY

Morse created the note which sent Abby out of the house.

Morse was in the possession of Andrew's "lost" front door key.

The men wanted to be alone and went to the guest bedroom.

Abby returned sooner than expected and heard unusual activity in the bedroom.

Fearing an intruder Abby grabbed a weapon (the new hatchet?) and burst into the bedroom. I believe Professor Masterton suggests there was a new hatchet in the living room, recently purchase and not yet put away.

Perhaps the bedroom door was locked, but Abby had the key.

Abby discovered her husband and Morse together.

She may have waved the hatchet in protest or merely appeared threatening by just having it in her hand.

Morse, fearing for his life and reputation, killed Abby.

During the assault Andrew attempted to inervene and suffered a blow to the head. This was a closed head concussion (no blood). The blow may have been accidental.

Dazed from the concussion Andrew staggered to the couch.

Morse killed him because he was a witness. Author Masterton relying on modern forensics places the possible time of the two deaths as closer together than previously thought. I theorize Andrew died shortly after Abby.

Morse had been to his niece's house earlier that day.

Morse returned to his niece's home and changed the clocks in her house to confuse the occupants about the time frame.

Morse may have been naked at the time of the murder or he may have left clothes at the Borden house on a previous visit.

Morse had some dried blood on him. When he returned to the Borden residence he used several very moist pears to dilute and rub the blood off. Discarded after use the pears dried quickly in the summer heat and blended in with the ground.

This explains why Morse spend much of the afternoon in the backyard. He was stepping on the bloody pears to make them blend into the ground.

When people became too nosy, Morse reportedly locked some of them in the barn. Eventually insects, animals and the sun destroyed the pears and the blood evidence.

I believe I have addressed motive, opportunity and explained the lack of blood evidence. In his business Morse may have often slaughtered cattle with a similar method and/or chopped wood. The action of swinging a hatchet may have been routine for him.

[shakiboo]

Good Grief, Lady give it up, I don't think anyone but you is buying into it. Both Andrew and John are probably spinning in their graves! Lizzies probably rolling around laughing hysterically.........of all the things that could have happend that day, I just don't think your fantasy is one of them! lol

[Angel]

Here's what REALLY happened: Andrew, Morse and Billy Borden were having a menage a trois. They agreed to meet in the guest bedroom, but Lizzie, Alice Russell and Bridget were already in there having their rendevous. Abby, who had gone out to go to the lingerie store to buy some fish net stockings, 4 inch heels and a teddy in the hopes of recapturing Andrew's attention, returned, walked in on the six of them and flew into a rage because they had messed up her freshly made bed. The rest is history.

[Angel]

No, wait---I've got it! Mrs. Bowen got sick and tired of Abby running over to see her husband all the time under the pretext of being ill, when, actually, they were getting it on. She went over to confront Abby and things got out of hand. She killed Abby and left her. When she tried to leave the house Andrew came in. She had to do him in to prevent him from turning her in.
Lizzie was devastated when she found out Abby had been having an affair with the good doctor because SHE had been secretly in love with him. When she discovered her father's body she had Bridget run out for Doctor Quartermaine, but Luke and Laura came instead and, no, wait, I'm starting to get confused.

[theebmonique]

Hmmm....maybe Erica Can did it all...?!!!





Tracy...

[twinsrwe]

I'm sorry but there are a few errors and misconstructions here going on and on, I feel like I should point these out.
I didn't want to.

Actually, I'm a bit surprised that other's haven't caught a few of these either?

Oh, Kat, you are not the only one who caught on. I have been watching this thread from the beginning, although I haven't posted anything. I suspected, early on, that this thread was nothing more than a very vivid imagination at work.

[Kat]

Well, let me at least post the info on Andrew's front door key. It is mentioned about 7 times so it is integral to the theory. If it is shown that Andrew had his key tho, the theory might change to accomodate this?

Bridget
Prelim
19
Q. How did you know he had come?
A. I heard him at the door. I cannot tell did he ring the bell or not, but I heard a person at the door trying to get in; and I let him in.

Q. What was it you heard exactly?
A. Somebody trying to unlock the door.

Q. You was then in the sitting room washing the windows?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. What did you do?
A. I went and let him in.

Q. It was Mr. Borden was it?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Have you any idea what time that was?
A. It might be later than half past ten; I could not tell.

Q. What locks on the front door did you find locked when you let him in?
A. The bolt and a common key that I turned on both sides.

Q. Anythingelse?
A. No Sir.

Q. A spring lock?
A. Yes Sir. He had a key.

Q. He unlocked that from the outside?
A. Yes Sir.
-------------

Inquest
Lizzie
Q. Who let your father in?

61 (18)

A. I think he came to the front door and rang the bell, and I think Maggie let him in, and he said he had forgotten his key; so I think she must have been down stairs.
Q. His key would have done him no good if the locks were left as you left them?
A. But they were always unbolted in the morning.
Q. Who unbolted them that morning?
A. I don't think they had been unbolted; Maggie can tell you.
Q. If he had not forgotten his key it would have been no good?
A. No, he had his key and could not get in. I understood Maggie to say he said he had forgotten his key.
Q. You did not hear him say anything about it?
A. I heard his voice, but I don't know what he said.
Q. I understood you to say he said he had forgotten his key?
A. No, it was Maggie said he said he had forgotten the key.

_______

Mrs. Dr. Kelly
Prelim
209
Q. Did you see him go up the steps?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you see him doing, if anything, when he got up the steps?
A. I thought he was trying to put the key in the door. I thought he was trying to open the door.
...
211
A. Yes Sir; I thought he was trying to open the door.
Q. Could you tell whether he had a key in his hand or not?
A. No Sir.
212
Q. Did you see him pull the bell?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see him go in?
A. No Sir.
Q. You passed by, and left him there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You do not know how he did get in?
A. No Sir.
Q. You do not know that he did get in?
A. No Sir.
_____
Trial
Mrs. Dr. Kelly
213
Q. What did you see him do at the front door?
A. He stooped down as though putting a key in the door, that is all.

Q. Did you see whether he had anything in his hand?
A. A little white parcel, I think.

Q. Did you speak to him?
A. No.

[twinsrwe]

I have taken the quotes from both rgreen4411's theory as well as timeline and combined them. Quotes taken from rgreen411's timeline are in a blue italic font; quotes taken from rgreen4411's theory are in a red italic font, and my comments as well as questions are in a black font.

Let's see just what we have here...



"Morse created the note which sent Abby out of the house.

Please, state your source for this statement.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~

From 10:45 to 10:46 = 1 minute: "Andrew returns home. He does not have his key to the front door. Bridget lets him in. Lizzie goes to the barn. Bridget washes windows and then goes upstairs."

WOW, Bridget is sure one supermaid!!! Andrew got a real bargain when he hired her! She can unlock the front door to let Andrew in, wash all those windows and go upstairs; she does all of this in a 1 minute time span. WOW!!!

~*~*~*~*~*~*~

From 10:46 to 10:47 = 1 minute: "Morse returns. Using Andrew's missing key he lets himself in the front door." "Morse was in the possession of Andrew's "lost" front door key."

It's truly amazing that Morse didn't SEE Andrew being let in the front door. Given the time frame here, I would think that Morse had to have seen Andrew at the front door. We are talking about a 1 minute time span, here, right? You need to state your source for Andrew's "lost" his key as well as Andrew giving his key to Morse.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~

From 10:47 to 10:49 = 2 minutes: "Andrew and Morse enter the guest room and lock the door." "The men wanted to be alone and went to the guest bedroom."

Why in the world the guest room was picked as the best place to meet is beyond me. If these two men wanted some private time together, why the guest room of all places? You mean to tell us that these two men were so full of lust, for each other, that they couldn't think of a better place to meet than at Andrew's house, with 3 women to sneak around? My, my, my. It is truly interesting and amazingly convenient that Abby had left the house, Bridget goes to her room, and Lizzie goes out to the barn; all at the same time. And, these 2 men not only planned all of this, but knew that the women were going to be where they were at the time they were there.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~

From 10:49 to 10:50 = 1 minute: "Abby returns home and discovers Morse and Andrew." "Abby returned sooner than expected and heard unusual activity in the bedroom. Fearing an intruder Abby grabbed a weapon (the new hatchet?) and burst into the bedroom. I believe Professor Masterton suggests there was a new hatchet in the living room, recently purchase and not yet put away. Perhaps the bedroom door was locked, but Abby had the key. Abby discovered her husband and Morse together. She may have waved the hatchet in protest or merely appeared threatening by just having it in her hand."

All of this takes place in a time span of 1 minute? WOW.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~

From 10:50 to 10:52 = 2 minutes: "Morse kills Abby." "Morse, fearing for his life and reputation, killed Abby. During the assault Andrew attempted to inervene and suffered a blow to the head. This was a closed head concussion (no blood). The blow may have been accidental. Dazed from the concussion Andrew staggered to the couch."

So, in 2 minutes, Morse got the hatchet away from Abby, fought off Andrew, then hacked away at Abby with 18 blows. All because he feared for his life and reputation. WOW! Maybe, Morse should have thought about his reputation before allowing himself to be in a situation where anyone could have walked in on them.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~

From 10:52 to 10:53 = 1 minute: "Morse kills Andrew." "Morse killed him because he was a witness. Author Masterton relying on modern forensics places the possible time of the two deaths as closer together than previously thought. I theorize Andrew died shortly after Abby."

Are you forgetting the known facts of the autopsy reports? Did you read the autopsy reports? It is spelled out quite clearly, in the autopsy reports, that there was definitely a greater time period than 2 minutes between the two deaths. Granted blood coagulates at different rates of time in different people, but come on, a period of 2 minutes is not going to show that Abby's blood was already congealed where Andrew's was still running. Give us a break!

~*~*~*~*~*~*~

From 10:53 to 11:30 = 37 minutes: "Morse takes the note he wrote and leaves by the front door. Once outside he groans. This is the groan Lizzie heard. Morse locks the front door. Morse bicycles to the Emery's and acts like he never left. His brief absence was unnoticed." "Morse had been to his niece's house earlier that day. Morse returned to his niece's home and changed the clocks in her house to confuse the occupants about the time frame."

My goodness, that was one verrrry loud groan that Morse let out, if Lizzie was able to hear it out in the barn or the backyard. It is truly a wonder the whole neighborhood didn't hear it!

What bicycle??? You need to state your source for the bicycle.

Where in the world were the Emery's? If the Emery's were home, were they blind? Are you asking us to believe that Morse changed the clocks with the Emery's present in the house? How in the world did he know where all of their clocks were located? Why would Morse feel the need to confuse the Emery's about the time frame? If the Emery's were not home, did Morse have a key to their house, too?

~*~*~*~*~*~*~

From 11:30 to 12:00 = 16 minutes: "Morse leaves the Emery's. He does not arrive at the Bordens until noon. (Did he leave luggage at a nearby friend's house and go their to change?) David Kent says on page 23 of Forty Whacks, "Amazingly Morse could trace his movements minute by minute and street by street, including the number of the trolley he had ridden and the number on the cap of the conductor who had driven it. His rememberances would suit a casebook on alibis. When he returned at noon Morse failed to notice several hundred people massed in front of the Borden house". Showing no curiosity Morse ambles to the back yard and eats pears. I say he was using the over ripe very moist pears to remove blood from his skin." "Morse may have been naked at the time of the murder or he may have left clothes at the Borden house on a previous visit. Morse had some dried blood on him. When he returned to the Borden residence he used several very moist pears to dilute and rub the blood off. Discarded after use the pears dried quickly in the summer heat and blended in with the ground. This explains why Morse spend much of the afternoon in the backyard. He was stepping on the bloody pears to make them blend into the ground. When people became too nosy, Morse reportedly locked some of them in the barn. Eventually insects, animals and the sun destroyed the pears and the blood evidence."

So, you are telling us that Morse went to the Emery's and back with blood on him, and no one noticed this? Morse spent the afternoon rubbing the blood off himself with very moist pears then stepping on the pears to make them blend into the ground; again, no one, out of the 200, or so, people gathering around the Borden house that day, noticed this? Why in the world would Morse have used pears to rub off the blood when, it is my understanding, there was running water in the barn?

How in the world did Morse not notice several hundred people massed in front the Borden house?

How convenient to have a change of clothes available to him from a previous visit. Better yet, he took the time to stop at a nearby friend's house to change his clothes. What did he do, put this change of clothes on over the blood he had to clean off himself with the pears once he returned to the Borden house?

Or, did Morse ride that bicycle to the Emery's, naked? (Harry, how's that for picturing Uncle John bicycling along Pleasant Street to the Emery's?).

~*~*~*~*~*~*~


"I believe I have addressed motive, opportunity and explained the lack of blood evidence. In his business Morse may have often slaughtered cattle with a similar method and/or chopped wood. The action of swinging a hatchet may have been routine for him."

Oh, please - You must think we are a bunch of idiots.

[twinsrwe]

My theory has received 39 whacks. Should I give up?

YES, you definitely need to give this one up!!!

[Kat]

--I would like to know if Andrew wore this ring on his "pinky?" -And where do we know that he read poetry?
--We are told that "male homosexuality is far more common than father/daughter incest." What is the source or proof of this?
--The Emery's were hosting Morse's niece and nephew (from Minn.), but we have no idea of the Emery's relationship with the Morses. If this poster knows, please tell?
--How does the poster know that Andrew "worked diligently, was active about the house, entertained guests...and had a good appetite?" [for his age]. He didn't do any of these things on Wednesday, that's sure.
--It was stated that "Andrew was a wealthy successful business man. Residing near Harvard University..."
--It is stated that "Andrew married Abby to get free housekeeping."
This comes about because of a question asked of Emma at the inquest. A question is not testimony. Therefore a slant can be put on this question to suit an *author* and has been. THat is putting words in Emma's mouth.
Inquest
Emma
108
Q. Who kept the house, your step mother, that is, who had charge of the management?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. She filled the place of housekeeper?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have, yourself, any particular duty in connection with the house?
A. Some things I always did.
--When Andrew married Abbie she was not this 200 lb. woman that seems to so disturb the poster. Besides, a 200 lb. woman is not to be assumed to be unattractive and therefore Andrew would withhold sex. We can't know that. If lack of issue from Abbie is the claim, then of course, as has been pointed out- Abbie may not have been able to bear children, or Andrew may have been rendered sterile or impotent in some way.
--The source for the statement: "...single males over the age of fifty are the least stable members of society." Is that then, or now, or true at all?
--If Morse went back to the Emery's and changed the clocks (at a house where the male head was an Overseer of a mill- gee wouldn't he notice the time difference?) he would not have taken a "bus."
--Source for "vials of blood" being "lost" in the OJ Simpson case?
--Source for the claim that: "The day before he [Morse] had been to a fortune teller."
--If Morse rode a bike to the Emery's and "acts like he never left" he would have blood on him, because then the poster has him coming back and cleaning off blood by rubbing pears on himself. Why not wash at the Emery's? And wouldn't they notice blood on him?
--Morse was not considered a "frequent overnight single male guest." There was nothing "frequent" about his overnight stays. See his inquest testimony.
--Source - besides "Chinatown", for "wealthy males rarely resort to incest except in fiction."


I don't think I would have gotten involved here except for this "Andrew's key" business going overboard. Repeated so many times, the statements got bolder and bolder, tho I admit the poster is a decent debater.

Now the poster is challenged to give source other than Kent- I have not challenged the TOD of Abbie (yet), so that leaves out Masterton too.
Good luck.

[twinsrwe]

Even Arnold Brown's theory is more plausible than this one. Sorry, couldn't help myself; just had to say it.

[Kat]

Sorry- we passed each other posting.

Why is everybody always picking on Andrew?

[twinsrwe]

Nothing to be sorry about, Kat... it seems to me that you and I had a great deal to say about this theory. I don't know about you, but, I certainly feel much better now that I have posted my questions and comments...

Poor Andrew - he is relentlessly picked on, isn't he?

[Kat]

Well, I took it seriously at the end. I printed out 21 pages and read it twice and made notes.
At first I was going to look up as much as I could, but decided to let the burden of proof rest with the poster.

[RayS]

The pinky ring did not arouse the suspicions of the pillars of the community in 1892. The pinky ring was mentioned at Lizzie's trial by the defense using this to establish a healthy loving relationship between father and daughter. The Victorians were naive. They were also too naive to even consider that a respected business man would be having an affair with a younger male overnight guest.

WHO is naive? What sort of background do you have to say the Victorians were naive?
If they were the first to pass the "age of consent" laws (never needed before this time?) they obvious knew something.
Or is that just your imagination?

PS I changed my earlier comments. I know nothing about you personally, except you seem to make charges that you yourself can't prove. Whether you know them to be wrong, and are just playing Devil's Advocate, is something for the others to decide.

MY Decision: You are not worthy of consideration or a reply.

Write a book and get it published, then I'll consider answering you.
This site has had its provocateurs in the past, and will have them again.

[RayS]

Nothing to be sorry about, Kat... it seems to me that you and I had a great deal to say about this theory. I don't know about you, but, I certainly feel much better now that I have posted my questions and comments...

Poor Andrew - he is relentlessly picked on, isn't he?

I wonder why no one calls this a hypothesis?

It is NOT a theory (a way to explain what has been observed). Its making a claim and expecting others to fill in the blanks of proof or disproof.

Does everyone else agree?

[RayS]

My theory has received 39 whacks. Should I give up?

YES.
Can you find another put-on topic for this site?

[RayS]

You all can start with this missing key?
Please give the source for this, without using Kent.
Thanks.

If the back screen door was locked with a hook, no key would open it.

[RayS]

Even Arnold Brown's theory is more plausible than this one. Sorry, couldn't help myself; just had to say it.

There you go again!!!
A theory is a way to explain what happened when you didn't observe it.
This 'green' theory is a way to make up a story and see if anyone is foolish enough to believe it. A clever ruse, but I sugget this is a joke.

[RayS]

...
A few moments of intimacy of the nature President Clinton assures us is not even sex may have seemed a safe risk for them.

President Harding had his 'afternoon delight' with his married lover in the Presidential office. The only time was when her children were taking a nap.
JFK, LBJ, and countless others were also saved by the Secret Service (no doubt).

When Harding's wife showed up, the Secret Service barricaded the door until all was clear. Wake up!

[twinsrwe]

Well, I took it seriously at the end. I printed out 21 pages and read it twice and made notes.
At first I was going to look up as much as I could, but decided to let the burden of proof rest with the poster.

I took it seriously, too, Kat, although the comments and questions that I posted may not have come off as such. I also printed out the entire thread and after going over it several times decided to point out the things that I stated in my post. I want rgreen4411 to prove to us that her theory and timeline are in fact true; what are her sources for the claims she has made. This theory, just does not add up. You are absolutely correct to let the burden of proof be on her shoulders; this is her theory, not ours.

[Smudgeman]

Something tells me that rgreen has a hidden agenda.

[twinsrwe]

Nothing to be sorry about, Kat... it seems to me that you and I had a great deal to say about this theory. I don't know about you, but, I certainly feel much better now that I have posted my questions and comments...

Poor Andrew - he is relentlessly picked on, isn't he?

I wonder why no one calls this a hypothesis?

It is NOT a theory (a way to explain what has been observed). Its making a claim and expecting others to fill in the blanks of proof or disproof.

Does everyone else agree?

You can get off my case, Ray. I called it a theory, because rgreen4411 called it her theory; so if you have a problem with the word "theory", then take it up with her.

[RayS]

Sorry- we passed each other posting.

Why is everybody always picking on Andrew?

May he rest in peace and get the reward that he deserved.

I don't think he was a saint. How many children were injured in his cottom mills? Or got TB because he oppressed his workers with low pay? Not that he was the only one in those days, or even now.
But I'm not supposed to mention "politics" in the narrow sense. Only because it relates to this event.

My 'Brown's Theory Part 4' is an attempt to provide an answer as to what happened and why it was covered up. Its the best I can do, now.

[RayS]

..
You can get off my case, Ray. I called it a theory, because rgreen4411 called it her theory; so if you have a problem with the word theory, take it up with her.

Please accept my apology for disturbing your feelings.
But we should inspect these new claims?

[Kat]

Well, I took it seriously at the end. I printed out 21 pages and read it twice and made notes.
At first I was going to look up as much as I could, but decided to let the burden of proof rest with the poster.

I took it seriously, too, Kat, although the comments and questions that I posted may not have come off as such. I also printed out the entire thread and after going over it several times decided to point out the things that I stated in my post. I want rgreen4411 to prove to us that her theory and timeline are in fact true; what are her sources for the claims she has made. This theory, just does not add up. You are absolutely correct in let the burden of proof be on her shoulders; this is her theory, not ours.

Of course you did! No one could post such a concise offering without printing out the Theory and studying it.

(Still, it's not wasted time, Ray.)

[twinsrwe]

Even Arnold Brown's theory is more plausible than this one. Sorry, couldn't help myself; just had to say it.

There you go again!!!
A theory is a way to explain what happened when you didn't observe it.
This 'green' theory is a way to make up a story and see if anyone is foolish enough to believe it. A clever ruse, but I sugget this is a joke.

You called it Arnold Brown's theory, in your "Proof of Arnold Brown's Theory" series. Are you saying it is fine for you to use the word "theory", but no one else can?

[twinsrwe]

My 'Brown's Theory Part 4' is an attempt to provide an answer as to what happened and why it was covered up. Its the best I can do, now.

Need I say more?

[Kat]

I'm calling it a Theory too!
Sorry, I passed you again Twin!
(I also did a slight EDIT because I was talking to Ray when I said it's not wasted time.)

[twinsrwe]

Please accept my apology for disturbing your feelings.
But we should inspect these new claims?

No need for an apology, Ray, you didn't "disturb my feelings"... Next time, just think before you submit your posts, and, perhaps you should take your own advice.

[twinsrwe]

I'm calling it a Theory too!
Sorry, I passed you again Twin!
(I also did a slight EDIT because I was talking to Ray when I said it's not wasted time.)

Are we having fun yet??? Our crossing of posts are kind of like playing phone tag, isn't it?

Thanks, Kat. I knew I wasn't the only one calling it a theory. And you are absolutely right - our posts were NOT a waste of time.

[Harry]

... Or, did Morse ride that bicycle to the Emery's, naked? (Harry, how's that for picturing Uncle John bicycling along Pleasant Street to the Emery's?). ...

Ooooh! You just ruined my breakfast, Judy. Well, at least the seat on the bike would have been warm.

[twinsrwe]

... Or, did Morse ride that bicycle to the Emery's, naked? (Harry, how's that for picturing Uncle John bicycling along Pleasant Street to the Emery's?). ...

Ooooh! You just ruined my breakfast, Judy. Well, at least the seat on the bike would have been warm.

Sorry, I ruined your breakfast, Harry, but, I just couldn't help myself... I am soooo BAD sometimes!

[RayS]

Have some people forgotten their definitions of "theory" and "hypothesis"?

[Kat]

I don't care about the difference, personally.
Usages, and meanings, change in popular culture.
Ain't that so?

[twinsrwe]

I don't care about the difference, personally.
Usages, and meanings, change in popular culture.
Ain't that so?

I'm with you on this one, Kat. I have bigger and more important things on my mind than deciding if I should use the word "theory" or "hypothesis"! If the poster I am replying to uses the word "theory", then I will use the word "theory"; ditto for the word "hypothesis". It makes absolutely no difference to me. As Tracy pointed out previously in this thread; "your comments seem like a case of the pot calling the kettle black".