i am alive and monitoring this discussion. that's about it.
i did know that hair was found on the bed -- as though the murderer had shaken it off or pulled it off to get it out of the way. i don't know how i missed that the bed had been torn up and remade.
don't forget the bloody rag between abby's feet and the window -- as though the killer had wiped the axe.
but no pictures.
here's one thing from left field -- don't take me too seriously -- suppose there was semen as opposed to blood on the dress lizzie burned?
here's a more serious question to sort of anchor the discussion insofar as altering, cleaning, or straightening up the scene by the murderer or murderer/accomplice: Why? i don't mean to halt the thread of thought, but don't forget this (i mean from testimony, not photos): if the killer threw abby's hair on the bed and dropped a bloody rag -- why would someone operating from such an attitude bother to clean up or straighten anything?
this is just a taurus foot on terra firma. dont' mind me.
Susan, I Found It! What's been moved...
Moderator: Adminlizzieborden
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Kat
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People have thought that the hair on the bed was the "switch"- the "rat" of false hair apparently Abby wore. There is one at the FRHS on display. It's been thought this was from the crime scene. And was thrown to the bed by the action of the hatchet.
I don't think we have discussed before now that there was another way it could have ended up on the bed.
I thought of semen on Abby's body, but didn't think of it on Lizzie's dress. That could be rinsed tho?
I've just read that blood can show up as many different colors which could confuse a cop:
"A dried bloodstain can be any number of colors, from black to transparent, including brown, blue, green, grey, and white."
It depends upon the surface it adheres to and the thickness of the stain and the temperature, humidity etc.
Also:
"Liquid blood dries fairly quickly, clotting first on the surface exposed to air and then continuing to dry from the outside in...Liquid blood is thin and light red in color."
If there was 90 minutes between murders, with maybe 10 minutes deducted for Lizzie's supposed interactions with Andrew after his return- a newly minted killer might play with that room and that corpse as with a doll and a doll house. Why do killers pose their victims?
The handkerchief we see in the picture is up around near Abby's waist and some think it had been on her head for dusting and came off when the switch of hair came off. No one recalls seeing her wear it that morning tho.
I've never been convinced either way if it was something Abby was wearing or whether the killer brought it and left it there.
I don't think we have discussed before now that there was another way it could have ended up on the bed.
I thought of semen on Abby's body, but didn't think of it on Lizzie's dress. That could be rinsed tho?
I've just read that blood can show up as many different colors which could confuse a cop:
"A dried bloodstain can be any number of colors, from black to transparent, including brown, blue, green, grey, and white."
It depends upon the surface it adheres to and the thickness of the stain and the temperature, humidity etc.
Also:
"Liquid blood dries fairly quickly, clotting first on the surface exposed to air and then continuing to dry from the outside in...Liquid blood is thin and light red in color."
If there was 90 minutes between murders, with maybe 10 minutes deducted for Lizzie's supposed interactions with Andrew after his return- a newly minted killer might play with that room and that corpse as with a doll and a doll house. Why do killers pose their victims?
The handkerchief we see in the picture is up around near Abby's waist and some think it had been on her head for dusting and came off when the switch of hair came off. No one recalls seeing her wear it that morning tho.
I've never been convinced either way if it was something Abby was wearing or whether the killer brought it and left it there.
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Haulover
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just for the record, the hankerchief i was thinking of was this one:
George Allen, Trial, Pg 439
Q. Did you notice any article about the room anywhere near Mrs. Borden?
A. I noticed a hankerchief covered with blood.
Q. Can you tell us where that was?
A. It was lying from Mrs. Borden's feet toward the window.
Q. Could you identify it, do you think?
A. Yes, sir, the border is cut. (A ragged handerchief was shown the witness.) Yes, that is the hankerchief.
Q. State, if you can do so, the position of that hankerchief as it lay on the floor in reference to the window and the woman's feet, that is, which was the nearer?
A. It was lying about the same distance, I should think, from the windows as from her feet, about middle way.
Q. That is, about as far from the hankerchief to the window as from the hankerchief to the feet?
A. Yes, sir, it was wet in blood and lying in a -- just as you have it now.
______________
i guess i've generally envisioned the killer wiping the blade with this as he walked away from the body -- but i guess you can have it there as a result of the first strike for that matter.
as far as the color of a bloodstain -- it is going to mix with pigment? a blood stain on a yellow fabric will not look the same as that on a red fabric?
and how have you envised semen on abby's body? that is intriguing. the word"why" really does apply here -- but seriously, you've just given me the odd notion that all this was abby's fault.
the only reason i've considered semen on lizzie's dress is by wondering what besides blood could it have been? alice saw the soiled bottom hem (as you would expect it to be) but no blood.
if abby was "posed" -- can it be judged what the killer is trying to hide about the circumstances?
George Allen, Trial, Pg 439
Q. Did you notice any article about the room anywhere near Mrs. Borden?
A. I noticed a hankerchief covered with blood.
Q. Can you tell us where that was?
A. It was lying from Mrs. Borden's feet toward the window.
Q. Could you identify it, do you think?
A. Yes, sir, the border is cut. (A ragged handerchief was shown the witness.) Yes, that is the hankerchief.
Q. State, if you can do so, the position of that hankerchief as it lay on the floor in reference to the window and the woman's feet, that is, which was the nearer?
A. It was lying about the same distance, I should think, from the windows as from her feet, about middle way.
Q. That is, about as far from the hankerchief to the window as from the hankerchief to the feet?
A. Yes, sir, it was wet in blood and lying in a -- just as you have it now.
______________
i guess i've generally envisioned the killer wiping the blade with this as he walked away from the body -- but i guess you can have it there as a result of the first strike for that matter.
as far as the color of a bloodstain -- it is going to mix with pigment? a blood stain on a yellow fabric will not look the same as that on a red fabric?
and how have you envised semen on abby's body? that is intriguing. the word"why" really does apply here -- but seriously, you've just given me the odd notion that all this was abby's fault.
the only reason i've considered semen on lizzie's dress is by wondering what besides blood could it have been? alice saw the soiled bottom hem (as you would expect it to be) but no blood.
if abby was "posed" -- can it be judged what the killer is trying to hide about the circumstances?
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Susan
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Weren't there 2 handkerchiefs found near Abby, one near her head and one near her feet?
I think I see where Kat is going with the idea of semen found on Abby's body, never quite thought of it along the lines with Lizzie though. I guess that would go hand in hand with the incest theory, but then who, Andrew? Uncle John? Unlike Monica Lewinsky, I don't think most women would want such a stained dress in their vicinity and would destroy it.
I recall posting in the past about the paint color that was on Lizzie's Bedford cord dress, the painter refered to it as Drab. I don't think a greyish, greenish brown paint on a light blue corded fabric would look anything like bloodstains. I think the same would be true of actual bloodstains on that dress, depending on how blue that dress was, it would alter the appearance. Some because of the color of the fabric coming through the stain and the rest would be an optical illusion type of thing. A color surrounded by another color can alter it, make it brighter looking or darker.
I think I see where Kat is going with the idea of semen found on Abby's body, never quite thought of it along the lines with Lizzie though. I guess that would go hand in hand with the incest theory, but then who, Andrew? Uncle John? Unlike Monica Lewinsky, I don't think most women would want such a stained dress in their vicinity and would destroy it.
I recall posting in the past about the paint color that was on Lizzie's Bedford cord dress, the painter refered to it as Drab. I don't think a greyish, greenish brown paint on a light blue corded fabric would look anything like bloodstains. I think the same would be true of actual bloodstains on that dress, depending on how blue that dress was, it would alter the appearance. Some because of the color of the fabric coming through the stain and the rest would be an optical illusion type of thing. A color surrounded by another color can alter it, make it brighter looking or darker.
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Tina-Kate
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Kat
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Yes, indeed, Alice it is at the Crime Library, Crime Scene photos.
And I did recall the handkerchief described as near Abby's feet, later last night, haulover! Thank you for the testimony!
I think there was one handkerchief in that room. Didn't it start out up near Abby's head?
Migrated to her waist and then her feet?
Alas, a male murderer, depraved enough to hack Abby Borden, is depraved enough to get off on it, IMO.
Well, a female could too, but not leave much stain behind...
And I did recall the handkerchief described as near Abby's feet, later last night, haulover! Thank you for the testimony!
I think there was one handkerchief in that room. Didn't it start out up near Abby's head?
Migrated to her waist and then her feet?
Alas, a male murderer, depraved enough to hack Abby Borden, is depraved enough to get off on it, IMO.
Well, a female could too, but not leave much stain behind...
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Susan
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Yes, from Dr. Dolan's Preliminary testimony, he states that the handkerchief was found near Abby's head. Page 90:
Q. Anything on her head?
A. No Sir. There was a silk handkerchief, whether it had been around her head or not, I cannot say. It was not around the head when I saw it, but near the head.
He states pretty much the same thing at the Trial, except there is this:
Q. It was a dark colored handkerchief?
A. Yes, sir.
Bridget states in her Trial testimony that Abby used the old hankies for dusting, so, that may have been why it was there for, dusting.
But, that cloth lying next to Abby's elbow is white or very light colored, 2 handkerchiefs? Or, is that possibly a rag someone used to wipe their hands on and just left it there, further contaminating the crime scene?
Plus, this dark handkerchief was one of the items originally buried in the Borden back yard.
Q. Anything on her head?
A. No Sir. There was a silk handkerchief, whether it had been around her head or not, I cannot say. It was not around the head when I saw it, but near the head.
He states pretty much the same thing at the Trial, except there is this:
Q. It was a dark colored handkerchief?
A. Yes, sir.
Bridget states in her Trial testimony that Abby used the old hankies for dusting, so, that may have been why it was there for, dusting.
But, that cloth lying next to Abby's elbow is white or very light colored, 2 handkerchiefs? Or, is that possibly a rag someone used to wipe their hands on and just left it there, further contaminating the crime scene?
Plus, this dark handkerchief was one of the items originally buried in the Borden back yard.
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Haulover
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for clarification, i believe we are talking about two hankerchiefs. the one in the photo is one or something like one. the bloody one described in the testimony i posted was found between abby's feet and the window. this is just my impression, but i tend to see the latter as bloodied because used by the killer to wipe the blade and then dropped there as the killer walks away from the body. of course, i don't know this as fact -- but as it was described as being blood-soaked, i doubt it was just knocked off her head or something in the initial phase of the attack. so possibly that's an indication of the movements or the "trail" of the killer.
now here's something to ponder: if my notion is correct, then why did the killer drop it there? killer paused to look out the window? can you imagine what the killer's thoughts were? in these several recent accounts of visiting the house - any particular impression about that window?
now here's something to ponder: if my notion is correct, then why did the killer drop it there? killer paused to look out the window? can you imagine what the killer's thoughts were? in these several recent accounts of visiting the house - any particular impression about that window?
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Alice
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lydiapinkham
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I vote for 2 hankies too. The one in the photo is light--probably white--and raggedy looking (as in the "cut" description). The dark silk is not described so much as a rag and would be appropriate as a hair covering for housework. She might not have put it on her head until she began working.
--Lyddie
--Lyddie
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Kat
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Abby began her dusting downstairs before Morse left. She wasn't described then as wearing a handkerchief, and she was using a "feather duster."
Granted, she may not have wanted to put it on until out of his sight. But she was seen in the dining room by Bridget and Lizzie, dusting, after Morse was gone and did not have on a handkerchief.
Prelim
Morse
241
A. Mrs. Borden was backwards and forwards through the room; she was in and out.
Q. In and out of where?
A. I saw her go in the kitchen way, and saw her go in the front way, once.
Q. What was she doing, or could you not tell?
A. She was dusting the room when I went in the sitting room, when I was there.
Q. With a cloth or a feather duster?
A. A feather duster.
Q. Did she have anything on her head?
A. I do not think she had.
........
252
Q. You say after breakfast Mrs. Borden was about the house there, dusting and doing various things?
A. Yes. Sitting down there a little while, but she was dusting around there.
Q. Dusting with what?
A. With a dusting brush, a feather duster.
________
Prelim
Bridget
11
Q. When Mrs. Borden said that to you about washing windows, do you know where Lizzie was then?
A. No Sir.
Q. That was the last time you saw Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes Sir. She had the feather duster in her hand dusting the dining room. I left her there, and went back into the kitchen.
.......
Trial
Bridget
(no page #)
Bridget Sullivan was re-called on ........
Q. (By Mr. Moody.) This handerkerchief was not here, or under our control at the time the witness was on the stand. Have you seen such a handkerchief as that before? (Showing dark, old handkerchief.)
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was it commonly used for and by whom?
A. Mrs. Borden used to use handkerchiefs the same as dusters is.
Q. Did she use it as a pocket handkerchief?
A. Mr. Borden used them as pocket hankerchiefs, and Mrs Borden, when they got worn out, took them as dust rags.
__________
--Since Abby was using a feather duster she probably was not using this handkerchief found, to dust.
_______
Inquest
Lizzie
58
A. I had as soon you called her mother. She was in the dining room with a feather duster dusting.
Q. When she dusted did she wear something over her head?
A. Sometimes when she swept, but not when dusting.
______
--This may be a trick of the light. That ball of something seems to glow as does Abby's body. Someone should find a reference to another handkerchief or show that this object is not one before we can say there were 2.
"The following articles which had been offered in evidence during the progress of the trial were selected from among the exhibits in the case by counsel and sent to the jury:
Pages 1927-1928
Plans and photographs marked as exhibits in the case.
Skulls of Mr. and Mrs. A. J. Borden.
Bedspread and pillow shams.
Handkerchief found by Mrs. Borden's body.
Piece of doorframe taken from inside of dining room.
Piece of moulding taken from guest chamber west of dressing case.
Piece of plaster.
Two axes.
Claw-hammer hatchet.
Hatchet with plain head.
Handleless hatchet and bit of wood.
Blue blouse and dress skirt.
White skirt.
Magnifying glass."
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... ceList.htm
Granted, she may not have wanted to put it on until out of his sight. But she was seen in the dining room by Bridget and Lizzie, dusting, after Morse was gone and did not have on a handkerchief.
Prelim
Morse
241
A. Mrs. Borden was backwards and forwards through the room; she was in and out.
Q. In and out of where?
A. I saw her go in the kitchen way, and saw her go in the front way, once.
Q. What was she doing, or could you not tell?
A. She was dusting the room when I went in the sitting room, when I was there.
Q. With a cloth or a feather duster?
A. A feather duster.
Q. Did she have anything on her head?
A. I do not think she had.
........
252
Q. You say after breakfast Mrs. Borden was about the house there, dusting and doing various things?
A. Yes. Sitting down there a little while, but she was dusting around there.
Q. Dusting with what?
A. With a dusting brush, a feather duster.
________
Prelim
Bridget
11
Q. When Mrs. Borden said that to you about washing windows, do you know where Lizzie was then?
A. No Sir.
Q. That was the last time you saw Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes Sir. She had the feather duster in her hand dusting the dining room. I left her there, and went back into the kitchen.
.......
Trial
Bridget
(no page #)
Bridget Sullivan was re-called on ........
Q. (By Mr. Moody.) This handerkerchief was not here, or under our control at the time the witness was on the stand. Have you seen such a handkerchief as that before? (Showing dark, old handkerchief.)
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was it commonly used for and by whom?
A. Mrs. Borden used to use handkerchiefs the same as dusters is.
Q. Did she use it as a pocket handkerchief?
A. Mr. Borden used them as pocket hankerchiefs, and Mrs Borden, when they got worn out, took them as dust rags.
__________
--Since Abby was using a feather duster she probably was not using this handkerchief found, to dust.
_______
Inquest
Lizzie
58
A. I had as soon you called her mother. She was in the dining room with a feather duster dusting.
Q. When she dusted did she wear something over her head?
A. Sometimes when she swept, but not when dusting.
______
--This may be a trick of the light. That ball of something seems to glow as does Abby's body. Someone should find a reference to another handkerchief or show that this object is not one before we can say there were 2.
"The following articles which had been offered in evidence during the progress of the trial were selected from among the exhibits in the case by counsel and sent to the jury:
Pages 1927-1928
Plans and photographs marked as exhibits in the case.
Skulls of Mr. and Mrs. A. J. Borden.
Bedspread and pillow shams.
Handkerchief found by Mrs. Borden's body.
Piece of doorframe taken from inside of dining room.
Piece of moulding taken from guest chamber west of dressing case.
Piece of plaster.
Two axes.
Claw-hammer hatchet.
Hatchet with plain head.
Handleless hatchet and bit of wood.
Blue blouse and dress skirt.
White skirt.
Magnifying glass."
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... ceList.htm
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Alice
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- Location: Utah
A magnifying glass? Why was that evidence?
As for the feather duster/white handkerchief question, I use different tools to dust different things. Feather dusters aren't very good at dusting knick-knacks like the things on the bureau. I think Abby might have used a cloth on those. And maybe the dark silk handkerchief wasn't a head covering, but a smooth cloth to polish the mirror. Yeah, I know I'm just supposing here.
As for the feather duster/white handkerchief question, I use different tools to dust different things. Feather dusters aren't very good at dusting knick-knacks like the things on the bureau. I think Abby might have used a cloth on those. And maybe the dark silk handkerchief wasn't a head covering, but a smooth cloth to polish the mirror. Yeah, I know I'm just supposing here.
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Tina-Kate
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Kat
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So Abby didn't have it on her head. And she might have had it in her apron pocket to use upstairs? Where does she stash the feather duster in the meantime? Abby goes upstairs around 8:40 to 8:45, and again at around 9. Lizzie's in the kitchen or down cellar- but Abby is seen with the feather duster saying she is going upstairs after that, around 9.
So this is one handkerchief?
The magnifying glass was to aid the jurors in examining the exhibits, like the handlesless hatchet. Good question.
So this is one handkerchief?
The magnifying glass was to aid the jurors in examining the exhibits, like the handlesless hatchet. Good question.
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Tina-Kate
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I'm thinking maybe Abby put the feather duster back where it belonged before taking the bedlinens upstairs. Then, once she was done with the bed (perhaps making another trip to drop off the dirty laundry & fetch pillow shams??), she decided to polish up the knick-knacks a little.
“I am innocent. I leave it to my counsel to speak for me.”
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
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Tina-Kate
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Ooops, meant to add this accounts for Abby taking quite a while in her chores. She prob had no need to hurry & quite likely she would rather putter in the room to cool off from all the up & down. Humid day, getting on in years & carrying lots of extra weight. Poor thing prob had to catch her breath.
“I am innocent. I leave it to my counsel to speak for me.”
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
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Kat
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I was wondering where she would keep her feather duster. If she kept in in a kitchen closet, Bridget or Lizzie would have seen her put it away.
Bridget was still working on the dishes and Lizzie was supposedly having her cookie and coffee in the kitchen. Then Bridget went out to retch about 9 when Andrew left and Abby was supposedly then in the guest room. If she went anywhere other than the guest room after speaking to Lizzie in the dining room, neither Bridget, nor Lizzie tell us of that.
The bed was fresh by then- it was pillow shams which needed changing. They might have been kept in the bureau drawer in that guest room.
That has been a reason some folks believe Abby was bending over or kneeling at the bureau to retrieve those when she was attacked.
But if the bed was *fresh*, where was the laundry from it?
Anyway, here is some more Trial info on the handkerchief found. Apparently it was buried in the dirt in the backyard with the other bloody items and dug up and then put in a box and re-buried. We can't now know what color or shade it was originally.
Trial
Dolan
857+
Q. Did you find any article of clothing there that you took away?
A. Yes, sir; I found a handkerchief, and old silk handkerchief.
Q. Where is that? Is it here?
A. Yes, sir: it is down stairs in the satchel.
Q. Well, I want it, if you have got the key?
A. It is not locked, sir: it is right on the desk in your room.
(Mr. Moody went for the satchel)
Page 858
Q. For convenience of talking new, it is the handkerchief that has already been introduced in the case?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You sent it up once to be looked at anyhow?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you find the handkerchief, near the head?
A. Almost touching it, nearer the wall than the head.
Q. Was it knotted or loose?
A. Loose.
Q. Describe the handkerchief?
A. It seemed to be an old silk handkerchief, in some places shredded from wear.
Q. Did you notice whether the handkerchief was cut or not?
A. I did not see that it was cut.
Q. It was a dark colored handkerchief?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there blood on the handkerchief?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How near her head was the handkerchief? Perhaps I have already asked that.
A. It was quite near. The hands were in there between the head and the handkerchief.
Q. I will ask now before I come to the measurements, how far in your estimation, if you observed it, was the head of Mrs. Borden from the west wall. That would be the west wall, would it not?
A. The east wall.
Q. Is that the handkerchief? (Showing dark tattered handkerchief)
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that in the condition so far as the entirety of it is concerned, as it was then?
A. Yes, sir, I think so.
Q. Did you take charge of it then?
A. No, sir, not at that particular time.
Q. When did you take it, if you took it, that day?
A. No, sir, I
Page 859
didn't take it that day.
Q. Was anything done with it that day, if you know?
A. Yes, sir, buried it with the rest of the clothing.
Q. Is it now in your custody?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Oh, it was buried at the time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The clothing was afterwards dug up?
A. Yes, sir, it was dug up with parts of the clothing.
Q. Do you know what date?
A. I can tell you by referring to the notes.
Q. I don't care about it. Was it dug up within a week or ten days?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you present at the digging up?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you take the handkerchief?
A. No, sir, they were re-buried after being dug up to get some things and finally taken and carried up to the Marshal's office.
Q. You received it from the Marshal?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You identify that, you say, as the handkerchief?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long were you engaged in examining the body of Mrs. Borden at that time?
A. Two or three moments, that is all.
--If I find more I will post it.
Bridget was still working on the dishes and Lizzie was supposedly having her cookie and coffee in the kitchen. Then Bridget went out to retch about 9 when Andrew left and Abby was supposedly then in the guest room. If she went anywhere other than the guest room after speaking to Lizzie in the dining room, neither Bridget, nor Lizzie tell us of that.
The bed was fresh by then- it was pillow shams which needed changing. They might have been kept in the bureau drawer in that guest room.
That has been a reason some folks believe Abby was bending over or kneeling at the bureau to retrieve those when she was attacked.
But if the bed was *fresh*, where was the laundry from it?
Anyway, here is some more Trial info on the handkerchief found. Apparently it was buried in the dirt in the backyard with the other bloody items and dug up and then put in a box and re-buried. We can't now know what color or shade it was originally.
Trial
Dolan
857+
Q. Did you find any article of clothing there that you took away?
A. Yes, sir; I found a handkerchief, and old silk handkerchief.
Q. Where is that? Is it here?
A. Yes, sir: it is down stairs in the satchel.
Q. Well, I want it, if you have got the key?
A. It is not locked, sir: it is right on the desk in your room.
(Mr. Moody went for the satchel)
Page 858
Q. For convenience of talking new, it is the handkerchief that has already been introduced in the case?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You sent it up once to be looked at anyhow?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you find the handkerchief, near the head?
A. Almost touching it, nearer the wall than the head.
Q. Was it knotted or loose?
A. Loose.
Q. Describe the handkerchief?
A. It seemed to be an old silk handkerchief, in some places shredded from wear.
Q. Did you notice whether the handkerchief was cut or not?
A. I did not see that it was cut.
Q. It was a dark colored handkerchief?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was there blood on the handkerchief?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How near her head was the handkerchief? Perhaps I have already asked that.
A. It was quite near. The hands were in there between the head and the handkerchief.
Q. I will ask now before I come to the measurements, how far in your estimation, if you observed it, was the head of Mrs. Borden from the west wall. That would be the west wall, would it not?
A. The east wall.
Q. Is that the handkerchief? (Showing dark tattered handkerchief)
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that in the condition so far as the entirety of it is concerned, as it was then?
A. Yes, sir, I think so.
Q. Did you take charge of it then?
A. No, sir, not at that particular time.
Q. When did you take it, if you took it, that day?
A. No, sir, I
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didn't take it that day.
Q. Was anything done with it that day, if you know?
A. Yes, sir, buried it with the rest of the clothing.
Q. Is it now in your custody?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Oh, it was buried at the time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The clothing was afterwards dug up?
A. Yes, sir, it was dug up with parts of the clothing.
Q. Do you know what date?
A. I can tell you by referring to the notes.
Q. I don't care about it. Was it dug up within a week or ten days?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you present at the digging up?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you take the handkerchief?
A. No, sir, they were re-buried after being dug up to get some things and finally taken and carried up to the Marshal's office.
Q. You received it from the Marshal?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You identify that, you say, as the handkerchief?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long were you engaged in examining the body of Mrs. Borden at that time?
A. Two or three moments, that is all.
--If I find more I will post it.
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Kat
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I found some hair but not much more on the handkerchief in the Trial.
About the laundry?...
What if the bedding for the guest room was kept in the guest room, as we've discussed before?
And what if, when/if Abby changed the bed, instead of bringing the good sheets down to the cellar to await washday Monday, she folded them and stored them in the drawers in the room?
I'm imaging an August, damp cellar with a dirt floor and how good sheets balled up from Thursday until Monday washday might get mildewed or odiferous when kept down there, say in a basket?
Then there is no need for us to find those sheets since we have no testimony that sheets were in the *laundry*?
About the laundry?...
What if the bedding for the guest room was kept in the guest room, as we've discussed before?
And what if, when/if Abby changed the bed, instead of bringing the good sheets down to the cellar to await washday Monday, she folded them and stored them in the drawers in the room?
I'm imaging an August, damp cellar with a dirt floor and how good sheets balled up from Thursday until Monday washday might get mildewed or odiferous when kept down there, say in a basket?
Then there is no need for us to find those sheets since we have no testimony that sheets were in the *laundry*?
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lydiapinkham
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Tina-Kate
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I remember a thread "JVM's Laundry" & I don't think we ever figured out what happened to the sheets. It seems the "dark handkerchief" found "quite near her head" is different from the one in the photo, which seems to be light colored.
“I am innocent. I leave it to my counsel to speak for me.”
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
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Haulover
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well, this seems more and more like abby's arms (how they were when she was struck, how they were later altered, photo vs. testimony, etc.)
the testimony i posted and then that by kat seem to be talking about the same hankerchief. difference being one guy has it near abby's head (it sounds like in the space between her arms) and the other has it near her feet, between there and the window.
i don't think the bloody one is what looks like it could be a hankerchief in the photo.
the one we are talking about --- i guess for all we know it was something used by bowen and dolan for wiping their hands. especially when i see it moving from her head to her feet -- that's the first thing i thought of.
the testimony i posted and then that by kat seem to be talking about the same hankerchief. difference being one guy has it near abby's head (it sounds like in the space between her arms) and the other has it near her feet, between there and the window.
i don't think the bloody one is what looks like it could be a hankerchief in the photo.
the one we are talking about --- i guess for all we know it was something used by bowen and dolan for wiping their hands. especially when i see it moving from her head to her feet -- that's the first thing i thought of.
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Kat
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Yes, I agree. We don't know what that thing is in the picture. To have photographed it, it seems important, but then you'd think they would put it where it was first found for the picture.
Very curious.
Could it be the one in testimony and the lighting made it white-looking?
The only other handkerchiefs, I think, are the ones Lizzie was ironing.
Very curious.
Could it be the one in testimony and the lighting made it white-looking?
The only other handkerchiefs, I think, are the ones Lizzie was ironing.
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Susan
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I've moaned about it before, but, wouldn't it have been wonderful if there were crime scene pics that were taken when the rooms were untouched and the bodies unaltered? Since that rag or hankie next to Abby's elbow is never talked about when they refer to the photo at the trial, I guess we have to assume that it was considered unimportant.
What happened to the feather duster is a good question, Bridget says she didn't see where or what Abby did after she left her in the dining room dusting. She went about cleaning her kitchen and such and it sounds as though Abby never came back through there again. Could Abby have gone up and used the feather duster already in the guest room and brought it back down to put away? It was never listed as being found up there at all. Could the feather duster have been kept in the sitting room closet or front hall closet? I don't recall where it was at, but, the contents of the front hall closet were sort of listed somewhere, I think there was even a leaf for the dining room table kept in there.
What happened to the feather duster is a good question, Bridget says she didn't see where or what Abby did after she left her in the dining room dusting. She went about cleaning her kitchen and such and it sounds as though Abby never came back through there again. Could Abby have gone up and used the feather duster already in the guest room and brought it back down to put away? It was never listed as being found up there at all. Could the feather duster have been kept in the sitting room closet or front hall closet? I don't recall where it was at, but, the contents of the front hall closet were sort of listed somewhere, I think there was even a leaf for the dining room table kept in there.
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Kat
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Yes, Kieran, I think, named the objects in the hall closet as the table leaves and the carpet sweeper.
They stuck somebody in there, Phillips I believe, to see if someone could hide in there. I never understood that line of enquiry- taking pictures and all of the closet door. They didn't use it as an excuse at trial, did they?
Here it is:
Trial
Kieran
Q. Did you notice whether there was anything in the closet at the time?
A. There were some things in it, yes, sir, that I noticed.
Q. Whether or not you knew what they were ?
A. I think there were some leaves from a dining table in a box which stood up on end, and I think a carpet sweeper.
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They stuck somebody in there, Phillips I believe, to see if someone could hide in there. I never understood that line of enquiry- taking pictures and all of the closet door. They didn't use it as an excuse at trial, did they?
Here it is:
Trial
Kieran
Q. Did you notice whether there was anything in the closet at the time?
A. There were some things in it, yes, sir, that I noticed.
Q. Whether or not you knew what they were ?
A. I think there were some leaves from a dining table in a box which stood up on end, and I think a carpet sweeper.
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Susan
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Thanks, Kat. I kept doing a search with "Front Hall Closet" and came up with nothing, I knew the info was in there somewhere. No, I guess they didn't use it as an excuse, but, I think the idea was just to plant the seed in the jurors minds that "someone" could have come in and hid there between the murders.
I was just thinking that Abby had been dusting the morning of the murders, could she have also used the carpet sweeper to do a bit of spot cleaning? There was alot of carpeting in that house, would it have been her domain or Bridget's? Would it be a reason to have spent more time up in the guest room before putting on the pillow slips to finish up the room?
I was just thinking that Abby had been dusting the morning of the murders, could she have also used the carpet sweeper to do a bit of spot cleaning? There was alot of carpeting in that house, would it have been her domain or Bridget's? Would it be a reason to have spent more time up in the guest room before putting on the pillow slips to finish up the room?
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Robert Harry
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Haulover
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if they were accurate when they called it "blood-soaked" i don't see how that can be what they were talking about. in spite of the photography problems..........i have to trust that the values to some degree (unless when it's obviously overexposed and you can't see anything) -- there doesn't appear to be a problem in that part of the photography.
you know something? this may be completely ridiculous, but bear with it for a minute........i just thought i saw, for the first time, that the thing is a feather duster. ??? of course, without the handle in view? anyway, it looks light and also it looks like the texture of something like a feather duster and i think i see something like a rounded seam.........i don't know.
is this ridiculous?
and come to think of it, was anybody ever asked about seeing a feather duster on or near her body?
you know something? this may be completely ridiculous, but bear with it for a minute........i just thought i saw, for the first time, that the thing is a feather duster. ??? of course, without the handle in view? anyway, it looks light and also it looks like the texture of something like a feather duster and i think i see something like a rounded seam.........i don't know.
is this ridiculous?
and come to think of it, was anybody ever asked about seeing a feather duster on or near her body?
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Kat
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It would be cool if it was the feather duster but wouldn't it be entered as evidence?
The carpet sweeper was Bridget's tool in the front foyer and the girls took care of the guest room. It's an interesting idea because it makes things come alive- everyday events like sweeping or dusting- but it gets complicated too.
I'm also wondering how long it took to compose and expose that picture and if poor Walsh was staring at that bloody mess through a viewfinder all that time and whether it ever gave him nightmares?
The carpet sweeper was Bridget's tool in the front foyer and the girls took care of the guest room. It's an interesting idea because it makes things come alive- everyday events like sweeping or dusting- but it gets complicated too.
I'm also wondering how long it took to compose and expose that picture and if poor Walsh was staring at that bloody mess through a viewfinder all that time and whether it ever gave him nightmares?
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lydiapinkham
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Haulover, I agree that overexposure wouldn't account for just the one item coming out pure white, but I think it is too small to be any part of a feather duster. It looks to me as if the inventory was off: one hanky listed instead of two. Unless! What if that's what Lizzie was doing that night in the cellar: removing a handkerchief that might be identified as hers--a blue blood soaked handkerchief. It could have protected her hair from spatter, then been forgotten at the scene. Remember how a second apron suddenly appeared down cellar too? Maybe she placedthe anonymous apron and removed a monogrammed handkerchief that could later be burned inside the Bedford cord?
--Lyddie
--Lyddie