Dinner on August 4, 1892, and John V. Morse

[Shelley]

Ditto the post above.

Nowhere does Morse say there was a carriage and "boy" in the driveway which would indicate that the arrival of Bowen and carriage did not happen at the same instant as Morse was coming through the gate. Many things occured between 11:20 and noon. All arrivals, departures, activities, and congregations of people milling about the street were not all transpiring in the same moment- and surely not all at the critical moment which is approximately 11:45 when Morse is coming through the gate. And we can only say approximately because the variation in clocks and timepieces was widespread. I should think Sawyer would have added to his testimony the fact that Bowen's carriage was sitting in the driveway if that had been the case. Sawyer on the doorstep surely would not have failed to see it. I would also imagine that if a carriage and horse were in the driveway, the gate would have been OPEN to let the rig in, and Morse would not have had to open the gate to get into the driveway- he could have walked right in next to the carriage. That would be a distinct possibility.

Let's just say for a second that it WAS in the driveway and Morse did not mention that fact. For all he knew, it might have been someone calling to do business with Andrew. How much had Dr. Bowen told "the boy" about what had happened inside the house? He may have known it was an emergency but no particulars.

A policeman may have directed the boy to move the carriage out of the driveway shortly after, making way for the arrival of other crime scene personnel.

Not too long ago we had a poster here who espoused one theory and one theory only. He would go to great lengths to make facts fit his theory, no matter how far-fetched and unlikely. In the end, the stubborn denial of any other possibilities and refusal to answer demands for proof or testimony to back up his claims soon led to his becoming a controversial character.

We all have our opinions here, and we all do not agree on every detail- which makes this an enjoyable forum to read and discuss the facts as we know them. Thing is, in a nutshell- Morse has an alibi- and no opportunity, weapon or motive.

To base culpability on the sole fact of eating a piece of fruit in the backyard and not storming madly into the house demanding to know what happened the instant he returns is, in my mind, rushing to judgement and leaping to conclusions. The crowd which harrassed Morse that night on his way to the post office wanted to pin it on somebody quick- somebody who was at the house, - somebody they viewed as an outsider to the neighborhood. If you ever saw the movie The Birds, when something dreadful and unexplainable happens, the first person the town goes after is the new arrival (played by Tippi Hedron). They gang up on her in a restaurant. Morse was an eccentric outsider old dude in their eyes, and coincidentally there near the time when something bad happened-so he must be guilty. Mob mentality is a dangerous thing, too.

[DJ]

I've never said I thought Morse committed the murders. I've expressed my theory several times.
You may do the digging.
Furthermore, I'm not trying to make evidence fit any theory. I'm citing discrepancies (as in the police report), and entertaining possibilities (such as the Dr.'s carriage still being in the yard, after he said he parked it there).
Yes, I do consider Morse suspicious (as to having some sort of prior knowledge); otherwise, I would not be scrutinizing what he says so closely. I am not addressing this all over the Forum, but under this topic.

[Harry]

DJ, regarding Dr. Bowen's carriage. I believe you are referring to this part of his Inquest testimony (page 118):

"Q. You had not then heard that the mother had been killed too?
A. No Sir. Then I went across to Baker’s drug store, I motioned the boy to come along. I stopped two or three minutes there and told them of it. When I came out, I got in my carriage again and drove directly to the house again and stopped at Mr. Borden’s door and went in. There were no crowds there at that time, that I remember of. I drove up on his side and told the boy to stand there.
Q. Had the crowd began to collect around there then?
A. No Sir."

My interpretation is that he drove up on the same side of the road the Borden house was on.

The photo of the that side of the yard makes the driveway appear to be much wider than it actually is. A map of the property in Rebello (p45) shows the width of the driveway, from the house to the fence at Mrs. Churchills, to be 15 feet. A carriage would have pretty much occupied most of the width and been noticed, Its narrowness was one of the things that struck me when I first went to the house.

It's interesting that Bowen says there was no crowd when he returned. He sent the telegram at 11:32. Baker's drug store was at the corner of South Main and Pocasset st. diagonal from City Hall. He would at least need 3 or 4 minutes to get back to the house. Morse returned at about 11:40 which would be 4 to 5 minutes after Bowen returned. Of course Morse's time is an estimate.

[Kat]

Thanks for the info on Bowen's equipage, Har.
Maybe it was Dr. Bowen, who had a conveyance handy, who picked up Emma at the train, since he also sent the telegram to ask her to return, and checked th schedule.
I've not found that Jennings did that. Have you a Rebello page number Shell?

Also, personally, I am not satisfied that Morse had an alibi for Abbie's murder, as Allen claims. We have no *outside* witness to his leave-taking- and believing Bridget or not makes no difference, because even if she did see him leave, doesn't preclude him coming right back in again.

[Shelley]

Emma testifies herself that she asked for Jennings- we have the Inquest citation on this thread somewhere.

[SallyG]

I've expressed my theory several times.
You may do the digging.

Those words sound extremely familiar....

[DJ]

My theory is that Lizzie committed both murders, but not on a whim. That is, not because she and Mrs. Borden had a knock-down drag-out that morning (there really wasn't much time, anyway, for that, according to Bridget's testimony). I believe she did it for the money. Her dislike for Mrs. Borden provided her with an emotional drive. Mr. Borden had to go because he could have turned against Lizzie and/or cut her out of the will completely.
It seems certain that Lizzie was planning to poison somebody. Mr. Bence is so certain in his identification of her, what with his coming to the house to look her over (again) and hear her talk.
That shows premeditation, on Lizzie's part. Planning. I think Lizzie had a "D Day" in mind, perhaps to coincide with the police picnic, and I think Emma knew about it. I also think Uncle John was dragged in, with his info about the planning of the new will.
What was his exact motive? I don't know, but it's rather dismissive to think he couldn't easily have had one, perhaps nothing more than he loved Emma more than Mr. Borden, and would do anything in the world for her. She's his blood.
There have been indications Morse wanted to buy one of the farms in Sawnsea, the one Mr. Borden said he was thinking of leaving to the Old Ladies Home. Morse could have been put off by that, or some other aborted transaction. It's easy for people who "do business" together, particularly family members, to have a falling-out over something. Morse could have held his tongue and inwardly stewed over something, while remaining "cordial" with the Bordens. There are plenty of people who carry slights around like that. Don't think he would ever admit this, however.
When Morse dies, he has a fraction of Mr. Borden's wealth. Morse is doing okay, but he's nowhere in Mr. Borden's league.
*** Morse apparently knows about investing, but he doesn't have the "risk funds" to invest and become a major-league player.***
Anyway, it's not out of the realm of possibility that there could have been a slight that festered between Mr. Borden and Mr. Morse, but on Morse's side. Morse is not going to bring this up, anymore than Bridget glosses over the lack of cordiality in the household at trial.
****Anyway, we don't know for sure if Morse was harboring a grudge over something concerning Mr. Borden, one that he kept to himself, or perhaps shared with Emma.*****
*************************************************************
To reiterate, I believe Lizzie killed both parents. I think Emma asked Morse to go down and help with "damage control."
*************************************************************
Now that I've shared, again, my thoughts, instead of receiving another round of attacks, I would be interested in hearing other theories.

[Shelley]

Oh, I don't think anybody here has ATTACKED you , DJ. This is a pretty civil bunch. Cordial too- depending on your idea of cordiality. If you come out with a theory, or strongly back a certain idea, then be prepared for people to challenge you for some testimony or factual evidence to back it up. Telling us all to "do the digging" sort of suggests you may not want to do it yourself. Yes, we have had that sort of response from another poster who held strong opinions- so you may understand how this could ruffle a feather or two.

Many theories have been expounded on this forum in other threads. This particular thread you have created deals with Morse's behavior and possible involvement in or knowledge of the homicides-so we are addressing ideas relevant to this topic here. In the end none of us knows for sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what happened on August 4th, and foolish would be the individual who would set themselves up as final arbitrator on all that transpired on that day. The pleasure of discussion and debate comes in the not knowing.

[Allen]

In the end none of us knows for sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what happened on August 4th, and foolish would be the individual who would set themselves up as final arbitrator on all that transpired on that day. The pleasure of discussion and debate comes in the not knowing.

Well said Shelley. The case would not be half as fascinating as it still is today if it weren't for the "not knowing".

[Kat]

There might be a misunderstanding here, about my original question. To recap- Shell, you wrote:

Andrew Jennings picked Emma up with her traveling bags at the depot. Morse would not have had a carriage unless he rented one.

and

The fact of Andrew Jennings going to the station for Emma is in the newspaper and Len says it is in his book somewhere. Makes
sense- he no doubt, like Dr. Bowen, had a carriage handy and what better person to make Emma aware of the situation at home. Jennings may even have foreseen the possibility that Lizzie could in the future need legal counsel-there would at the least be the inquest to get through.

Then Tina-Kate wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong---I thought Emma testified (Prelim or Trial) that she "called for" Andrew Jennings.

and Harry posted in response:

T-K, right you are. It's on page 107 of the Inquest:

"Q. What time did you get back?
A. I came on the train that left New Bedford 3.40.
Q. You came right to the house. You went up to Weir Junction and came down. Who sent for Mr. Jennings?
A. I think I did. I know I did."

I'll have to do a newspaper search to see what I can find.

So then I asked where in Rebello do you find that Jennings picked up Emma at the train:
partial-

Thanks for the info on Bowen's equipage, Har.
Maybe it was Dr. Bowen, who had a conveyance handy, who picked up Emma at the train, since he also sent the telegram to ask her to return, and checked th schedule.
I've not found that Jennings did that. Have you a Rebello page number Shell?

and you answered:

Emma testifies herself that she asked for Jennings- we have the Inquest citation on this thread somewhere.

Sorry to go through all that again, but it may have been a confusing question because much of this was on the prior page here. So do we have the info from Rebello where Jennigs picked up Emma from the train? Thanks!

[Kat]

As for DJ, your pertinent posts are food for thought and are keeping things lively. Good for you.

I'm still, after all these years, a fence-sitter when it comes to whether Lizzie-dun-it. Always willing to speculate with someone who does have the background to debate. Of course it's understood it's theorizing at this point.

[FairhavenGuy]

It's only theorizing until Stef finds that there's been a signed confession scotch taped to the wall at the Luther Museum behind a display of canning jars for 75 years. . .

[DJ]

There'll always be scores of unanswered questions regarding this case, even if something is released from an attorney's office in near future or far. Which is what makes it so intriguing.
Alone and for instance, how did Lizzie (if she did it) "clean up" so quickly after Mr. Borden's murder? (Aside from wearing a coat, or some such.) If there's a confession tucked away in a file drawer, I doubt it'll answer that question-- or who might have had prior knowledge, destroyed or removed evidence from the house, etc., etc.
Also, who's telling the truth in testimony-- fudging, giving partial truths, or out-and-out lying?

[camgarsky4]

My post is just to reactivate this 'rousing' 4-page debate on the goings and comings of Mr. Morse from 2008 (only 15 years ago ).

Kat, you have a number of posts to this thread. You seem to have been more suspicious of Morse back in 2008 than I've perceived is your perspective 'today'.

Not posting my thoughts on this thread debate just yet, but activating so I don't forget and its towards the top of the forum.

[Reasonwhy]

Camgarsky, what have you done?

This post of yours caused me to spend several hours re-reading (it has been many years) all of that thread, as well as the three threads Kat references therein as relating to Jeffery’s theory:

"Jeffery's Theory", May 29, 2004
viewtopic.php?t=168

"William A. Davis", November 9,, 2004
viewtopic.php?p=5467&highlight=#5467

"L.A.B.did not kill...", November 14, 2004
viewtopic.php?p=5614&highlight=#5614

So, now I am thoroughly intrigued to know your take on this theory as well as Kat’s current point of view! Before I get into more depth on my own thoughts, I just wanted to throw out a few reactions:

1. If Morse did all this for half of a duplex on one of the farms — or even if he also did it to help Emma (and maybe even Lizzie, though L & M did not exchange letters as much as Emma and Morse) get a bigger inheritance, then he sure didn’t get much out of it! No duplex and no farm for himself — and not even enough gratitude from his nieces to sell that farm to him. But after Lizzie’s incarceration, maybe uncle and nieces thought any gift or sale would rain more suspicion on all in the family?

2. I have always seen Morse’s testimony to be evasive. To have been as successful in business as he was, he had to have had a better command of details than his testimony showed. So why was he so vague on many points? Protecting himself, I’ve concluded. In reading it, I’ve always been surprised Knowlton didn’t press him much more to explain several things. Was his manner that convincing? His alibi seems to have been accepted at face value as proving he did not personally murder, but I am not aware of an investigation into possible motivations of Morse to hire it done.

3. A possible objection to Morse’s involvement, if part of his motivation was to enrich and avenge his nieces, might be that he sure landed Lizzie into trouble. But if he was involved, perhaps Morse assumed, as I believe Lizzie did, that she would never be accused, as it was too preposterous to believe a young, church-active, higher-class maiden could possibly have hatcheted her own father and step-mother.

3. I agree with one of the earlier posters who wrote that this theory at least involves trouble over who would get the farm/s. I believe that the outward expression of all that inner tension in the family centered on who would end up with Andrew’s property.

I have more observations, but hope others will offer their views first. Jeffery’s theory is worth another good discussion, don’t you all think? So thanks, Camgarsky! And as always, thanks to Kat, who in all of her forum and Hatchet work set such a bounteous table for us.

[camgarsky4]

Hi Reasonwhy!

Here are a couple of initial, high level thoughts on Jeffrey's theory:
I personally place ZERO credence in any of Mrs. Lincoln's uncorroborated inputs into the case. Along that line and based on my view of the historical accuracy of "A Private Disgrace", I specifically don't buy into the 'banking circles' rumors. Why would the fact that Andrew is thinking about selling an 'out of town' piece of real estate to a family member (Morse or Abby) even enter the 'banking circles" rumor mill? It didn't involve the banks from a financing perspective and was not some major (or minor) investment initiative that would get bankers or the local business communities attention. Andrew doesn't strike me as someone who would have discussed a transaction involving the Swansea farm and his family with other bankers....why would he? It had nothing to do with the banks. Transferring title did not involve the banks and to our knowledge banks weren't needed for financing. On top of that, the rumor would likely be hearsay on hearsay on hearsay to a very young person when Mrs. Lincoln would have overheard that piece of gossip.

Secondly, I find the idea that Morse (or anyone not a homicidal maniac or extreme psychopath) would plan the brutal slaughter of two people because he wasn't able to purchase a piece of property to be in the realm of fantastical. It comes across as an example of forcing a solution to this case. To my knowledge there is nothing we know about Morse that would lend credence that Morse would react to a retracted land deal in a physically hostile or violent manner. Folks who lean into this thought aren't suggesting it was a single moment of reactionary violence, they are suggesting he carefully plotted out his violent revenge.
I bet we would be hard pressed to identify a single real case when two people were butchered because of pulling out of a real estate transaction with a family member. Maybe family members would never speak to each other ever again. But carefully plot out their assassination?
What made this property so unique that purchasing an alternative (but like) piece of property wasn't an option?

Those are my quick, 'shooting from the hip' thoughts. I'll read Jeffrey's theories in more depth over the coming couple days.

I am very open to the idea that Lizzie had an accomplice, so looking forward to reading Jeffries views on the dynamic interactions of two separate killers.

Thrilled you are posting Reason!!

[camgarsky4]

Ok....I think I've read thru the pertinent sections of the links that Kat provided. Jeffrey certainly did an excellent job of revisiting the source documents and newspapers to assemble pieces that fit his (I suspect) predetermined puzzle.

I think he he stretched a bit far to retro-decide that the getaway driver ran off scared, leaving William high and dry. But by him abandoning William, it allowed Jeffrey to incorporate his clever suppositions that happened the next day with the roaming alcoholic gypsy.

I've read multiple times how suspicious it was that Morse picked up the eggs, thus avoiding the farm hands to visit Second Street on the 4th. I think it is just another of the numerous weird coincidences in this case. First, it would be efficient and logical for Andrew to avoid a paid trip for his hired hands by having someone visiting the farm bring back the eggs. Second, Morse gave the farm hands the pears from Andrew. Do we really think Morse would have thought thru that detail....I don't. I think it was, what it was. Andrew was able to avoid his hired staff chewing up half a day coming into town and he was polite enough to send them a little gift (albeit it a free one) with the pears.

A reneged upon sale of a Swansea farm to Morse is a bedrock component of Jeffries theory and to my knowledge there is no substantiation of that theory. I'm repeating myself, but if Morse needed acreage for his horses or a home to live in, there was plenty of land opportunities outside of the land owned by Andrew. It is inconceivable that a sane person would massacre anyone in this situation. To our knowledge Morse was not a homicidal mad man.

That all said, Jeffrey dug up some pretty cool newspaper articles that open up a few intriguing ideas and thoughts. Now I definitely want to get access to the New Bedford newspapers archive.