According to John V. Morse, when he sees A.J. Borden for the last time on August 4, 1892, Mr. Borden shakes his hand and asks him to join the Bordens for dinner.
(1) Do you believe this is true? One must accept Morse's word on this.
Morse spends about two hours at the Emerys' that morning. He hasn't seen them in several years. He hopes to see a niece and a nephew he has never met. However, he departs without having seen them. Mrs. Emery tells police that she invited Morse to dinner.
(2) Why doesn't he stay and have dinner? After all, he hasn't visited with Mrs. Emery in several years. (Maybe he could have met the niece and nephew after all, too, if he had stayed a bit longer, through dinner.)
Mrs. Emery tells police that Morse leaves her with the impression that he is headed straight from her home to New Bedford. He doesn't mention going back to the Bordens' for dinner.
(3) Why is he in such a hurry to get back to the Bordens' that a.m.?
Why doesn't he linger through dinner at the Emerys', whom he hasn't seen in several years? (How can the bill of fare be worse there?) Mr. Borden would have understood, given the circumstances.
If Morse were truly intent on seeing this niece and nephew, why didn't he stay a few hours longer?
Again, he seems to be in a steaming hurry to return to no. 92. Why? Does he fear something has happened?
Dinner on August 4, 1892, and John V. Morse
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DJ
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Tina-Kate
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I believe the story went that the nephew wasn't there when Morse visited. I suppose JVM may have planned to come back at a later time when he could see him.
From the sounds of things, Andrew & co were used to JVM bumming dinners, etc. Andrew & JVM seemed to get along well.
From the sounds of things, Andrew & co were used to JVM bumming dinners, etc. Andrew & JVM seemed to get along well.
“I am innocent. I leave it to my counsel to speak for me.”
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
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Allen
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You're right Tina-Kate.Tina-Kate @ Tue May 27, 2008 2:17 pm wrote:I believe the story went that the nephew wasn't there when Morse visited. I suppose JVM may have planned to come back at a later time when he could see him.
Inquest testimony John Morse page 103:
Q. Did you see the relatives you went there to see?
A. I saw one; the young man was out, I did not see him.
Q. What was the young woman's name?
A. Annie Morse, she was indisposed while I was there, she was on the lounge part of the time. She is my brother's daughter.
Q. You had not seen her for a good while?
A. A great many years.
Q. Did she come from the same part of the West you lived?
A. She belonged up in Minnesota. I went there first.
Q. The first you heard of her being there was from Mr. Borden?
A. No, I was at her grandmother's, they told me she was there, and had gone to Providence with one of her cousins. When I got off the cars, they got on, I just barely saw her.
Bridget also testified she heard Andrew asked John Morse to come back to dinner as he let him out the door that morning. I think this was at the prelim. So that would corroberate his statement of being asked to return. It would seem the niece was "indisposed", or feeling ill, and the nephew wasn't there. This could explain why Morse didn't visit longer at that time. As Tina-Kate suggested maybe he expected to return later.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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DJ
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Still, why does he not say he is returning to dinner at the Bordens'?
It would have been easy enough to say, in refusing the dinner invitation at the Emerys', that he has a prior dinner engagement.
Instead, he leaves the impression that he is headed directly for New Bedford. That's what Mrs. Emery tells the police when they check up on Morse's alibi.
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And, I'm still fixated on his passing the side door at the Bordens', upon his return, and heading for the pear tree, when dinner is imminent. He says he noticed "no one" around the house upon his return, although there were "two or three" policemen inside already, when he does decide to enter. All that is in his trial testimony.
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Lizzie exonerates him immediately when the police question her about him, shortly after they are summoned. Also, Morse takes the police down to the cellar door and tells them he thinks the murderer could have entered there and spent the night in the house.
That's a tad far-fetched, isn't it, as opposed to someone just entering the house that morning and committing the murders?
Each seems to be covering for the other, within an hour or so of the murders. (This info is in the police reports.)
***Lizzie and Morse both seem to have a very good idea of whom the murderer isn't.***
For people who supposedly haven't spoken at all during Morse's most recent visit, they sure seem to be "on the same page."
Of course, Bridget was out the night before the murders, returning after everyone in the household was abed. It's Lizzie's and Morse's word against everyone else's that they had no communication the night of August 3rd.
It would have been easy enough to say, in refusing the dinner invitation at the Emerys', that he has a prior dinner engagement.
Instead, he leaves the impression that he is headed directly for New Bedford. That's what Mrs. Emery tells the police when they check up on Morse's alibi.
**********************************************************
And, I'm still fixated on his passing the side door at the Bordens', upon his return, and heading for the pear tree, when dinner is imminent. He says he noticed "no one" around the house upon his return, although there were "two or three" policemen inside already, when he does decide to enter. All that is in his trial testimony.
***********************************************************
Lizzie exonerates him immediately when the police question her about him, shortly after they are summoned. Also, Morse takes the police down to the cellar door and tells them he thinks the murderer could have entered there and spent the night in the house.
That's a tad far-fetched, isn't it, as opposed to someone just entering the house that morning and committing the murders?
Each seems to be covering for the other, within an hour or so of the murders. (This info is in the police reports.)
***Lizzie and Morse both seem to have a very good idea of whom the murderer isn't.***
For people who supposedly haven't spoken at all during Morse's most recent visit, they sure seem to be "on the same page."
Of course, Bridget was out the night before the murders, returning after everyone in the household was abed. It's Lizzie's and Morse's word against everyone else's that they had no communication the night of August 3rd.
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Shelley
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Bridget's Prelim testimony
Q. Did Mr. Borden go out when Mr. Morse did?
A. No Sir.
Q. He went to the door?
A. Yes Sir, with him.
Q. Did you hear him say anything to Mr. Morse?
A. I heard him ask him to come to dinner.
Q. What did Mr. Morse say?
A. I do not know.Q. That is when they were at the door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. After Mr. Borden had let Mr. Morse out, where did he go then?
A. The sitting room.
Since nobody heard what Morse replied- I might suggest he said "We'll see", "Perhaps", or"Thanks, if I get a chance", or something of that nature. He may never have given a definitive YES to that invitation. Not knowing more of the Emery house details, I am not sure when that dinner invitation was tendered, or at what time they planned to eat or what the circumstances were. Clearly Morse preferred the company for dinner of Andrew it would seem over the womenfolks. I don't believe he rushed back to the Bordens,- he did not have enough time to walk the distance as it was getting on for noon, the hour when the Bordens ate promptly, so he took a streetcar the rest of the way so as not to be late.
Q. Did Mr. Borden go out when Mr. Morse did?
A. No Sir.
Q. He went to the door?
A. Yes Sir, with him.
Q. Did you hear him say anything to Mr. Morse?
A. I heard him ask him to come to dinner.
Q. What did Mr. Morse say?
A. I do not know.Q. That is when they were at the door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. After Mr. Borden had let Mr. Morse out, where did he go then?
A. The sitting room.
Since nobody heard what Morse replied- I might suggest he said "We'll see", "Perhaps", or"Thanks, if I get a chance", or something of that nature. He may never have given a definitive YES to that invitation. Not knowing more of the Emery house details, I am not sure when that dinner invitation was tendered, or at what time they planned to eat or what the circumstances were. Clearly Morse preferred the company for dinner of Andrew it would seem over the womenfolks. I don't believe he rushed back to the Bordens,- he did not have enough time to walk the distance as it was getting on for noon, the hour when the Bordens ate promptly, so he took a streetcar the rest of the way so as not to be late.
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Allen
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Lizzie pretty much exonerates everyone Andrew knew, including hired hands at the farm, except for Hiram Harrington and this strange man Andrew supposedly had words with at their front door. From what I've gathered so far I'm not sure Morse said the killer could've been hiding inside the house, it seems more of an inquiry as to whether or not the police thought it possible. If I came upon such a horrible crime as this my first thoughts on the killer would be who were they, and how did they get the opportunity to commit the deed?
The Witness statements page 3-4, notes of Doherty and Harrington:
Mr. Morse afterwards asked if I suspected that the murderer could have been concealed in the house last night. I replied that I did not. Then I said he might have been in the house, but could not see how he could have been there without some of them seeing him. He said it is very strange that this should be done in the day time, and right in the heart of the city. It put him in the mind of the Nathan murder which was twenty or twenty five years ago. In that case they never found the murderer.
The Witness statements page 3-4, notes of Doherty and Harrington:
Mr. Morse afterwards asked if I suspected that the murderer could have been concealed in the house last night. I replied that I did not. Then I said he might have been in the house, but could not see how he could have been there without some of them seeing him. He said it is very strange that this should be done in the day time, and right in the heart of the city. It put him in the mind of the Nathan murder which was twenty or twenty five years ago. In that case they never found the murderer.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Allen
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Inquest testimony of Charles S. Sawyer page 138:
Q. Were you there when Morse returned?
A. I was there when Morse returned, I suppose the time he returned; whether he had been there before, I don't know.
Q. Where did you first see him?
A. He came towards me from the gate. I stood on the steps at the time, standing outside the door and holding the door outside. He came along to the steps, and he says "For God sake what has happened here" ? I looked at him, I had not seen him, he was a stranger to me, I told him Mr. and Mrs. Borden have been murdered, been killed, something to that effect. "My God," he says, "and I left Mr. Borden right at this door, and he told me to come back to dinner."
Q. How long was that after you got there, as far as you can estimate?
A. I should judge somewhere in the neighborhood of very near twelve o'clock, or a little after; of either way, I should say a little after.
Q. Where did you see him first?
A. Coming [from] towards the gate, along the walk; whether he had come through the gate or not , I don't know.
Q. Was anybody with you at the time?
A. I am not sure about that, I don't think there was, unless the servant girl might have been inside the door, or somebody inside the door at that time. The servant girl would go out and in there through that entry sometimes when I was outside.
Q. Was there much of a crowd there at that time?
A. At that time there was quite a little crowd there.
Q. In the house, or out in the street?
A. They had been driven out of the yard by an officer there in attendance.
Q.The officers were there then?
A. Yes, when he came.
Q. Were the people in the street?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Many?
A. Well, yes sir I should say there was. My view was limited, not more than the width of the yard, but the fences appeared to be pretty well filled up; and previous to that, there had been quite a little crowd in the yard.
Q. Did you notice whether Mr. Morse was eating a pear or not, or eating anything?
A. No sir he was not when he spoke to me, at that time.
Q. What did he do when you told him?
A. "My God," he says, "what kind of God would permit a deed like this to be done?" Something like that.
Q. What did he do then?
A. He stood there a few minutes, and finally went inside of the door.
Q. Were you there when Morse returned?
A. I was there when Morse returned, I suppose the time he returned; whether he had been there before, I don't know.
Q. Where did you first see him?
A. He came towards me from the gate. I stood on the steps at the time, standing outside the door and holding the door outside. He came along to the steps, and he says "For God sake what has happened here" ? I looked at him, I had not seen him, he was a stranger to me, I told him Mr. and Mrs. Borden have been murdered, been killed, something to that effect. "My God," he says, "and I left Mr. Borden right at this door, and he told me to come back to dinner."
Q. How long was that after you got there, as far as you can estimate?
A. I should judge somewhere in the neighborhood of very near twelve o'clock, or a little after; of either way, I should say a little after.
Q. Where did you see him first?
A. Coming [from] towards the gate, along the walk; whether he had come through the gate or not , I don't know.
Q. Was anybody with you at the time?
A. I am not sure about that, I don't think there was, unless the servant girl might have been inside the door, or somebody inside the door at that time. The servant girl would go out and in there through that entry sometimes when I was outside.
Q. Was there much of a crowd there at that time?
A. At that time there was quite a little crowd there.
Q. In the house, or out in the street?
A. They had been driven out of the yard by an officer there in attendance.
Q.The officers were there then?
A. Yes, when he came.
Q. Were the people in the street?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Many?
A. Well, yes sir I should say there was. My view was limited, not more than the width of the yard, but the fences appeared to be pretty well filled up; and previous to that, there had been quite a little crowd in the yard.
Q. Did you notice whether Mr. Morse was eating a pear or not, or eating anything?
A. No sir he was not when he spoke to me, at that time.
Q. What did he do when you told him?
A. "My God," he says, "what kind of God would permit a deed like this to be done?" Something like that.
Q. What did he do then?
A. He stood there a few minutes, and finally went inside of the door.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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DJ
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Allen,
You found my quote!!! (Morse's exclamation.) Thanks!
Isn't this weird-- how much Sawyer's testimony differs from Morse's?
It's Morse who says he passed by the side door, went to the pear tree, picked two or three, and "maybe" ate one, before entering the side door. He does place Sawyer there, but inside, and I believe Bridget on the foot of the back stairs.
Sawyer also mentions the crowd, when Morse says there was "no one."
If Sawyer's right, could it be Morse lingered at the pear tree, circled out to the front, talked to the crowd, then come back by the gate?
It just doesn't make sense for Morse to say he was at the tree when he wasn't. In fact it paints him in a very odd light.
Maybe someone (or some people) saw him there (and he saw them), and he was afraid to fib about it at trial. Well, perjure himself to that extent.
If Sawyer is correct, then Morse must have circled around and come back.
You found my quote!!! (Morse's exclamation.) Thanks!
Isn't this weird-- how much Sawyer's testimony differs from Morse's?
It's Morse who says he passed by the side door, went to the pear tree, picked two or three, and "maybe" ate one, before entering the side door. He does place Sawyer there, but inside, and I believe Bridget on the foot of the back stairs.
Sawyer also mentions the crowd, when Morse says there was "no one."
If Sawyer's right, could it be Morse lingered at the pear tree, circled out to the front, talked to the crowd, then come back by the gate?
It just doesn't make sense for Morse to say he was at the tree when he wasn't. In fact it paints him in a very odd light.
Maybe someone (or some people) saw him there (and he saw them), and he was afraid to fib about it at trial. Well, perjure himself to that extent.
If Sawyer is correct, then Morse must have circled around and come back.
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Shelley
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I am thinking the fence went entirely across the front yard with the gates being at the front door, and one at the driveway. If Morse had entered the driveway gate , walked down the driveway and into the backyard, paused under the tree and picked up a pear - he would not have been able to circle around the south side of the house, get through the fence on the west side of and around to the front again. I have always wondered if Sawyer got the order of things correctly- that is, the conversation above came first, then Morse walked out back under the tree, then went into the house,
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There is a gate in front of the front door and another just like it in front of the driveway between the Churchill and Borden house on the North side. You can clearly see in this 1892 photo, the support posts on each side of the 2 gates.
We have this photo in the hall at the house in the front entryway. When the two trees were in bloom, the front of the house was more sheltered from view. Also, there were lots of shrubs in the Churchill yard. I have always been amazed that Hyman Lubinsky saw anything in that tiny sliver of space at the angle he approached of the spot between the barn and house. The Churchill house really blocked the view as it was a tall, wide house. You just have a TOTALLY more open vista today which simply was not there in August 1892. LeeAnn has a nice display of these photos in the barn giftshop and the Virtual Library has even more which show the gates and foliage at http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries ... St1892.htm
We have this photo in the hall at the house in the front entryway. When the two trees were in bloom, the front of the house was more sheltered from view. Also, there were lots of shrubs in the Churchill yard. I have always been amazed that Hyman Lubinsky saw anything in that tiny sliver of space at the angle he approached of the spot between the barn and house. The Churchill house really blocked the view as it was a tall, wide house. You just have a TOTALLY more open vista today which simply was not there in August 1892. LeeAnn has a nice display of these photos in the barn giftshop and the Virtual Library has even more which show the gates and foliage at http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries ... St1892.htm
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Kat
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Prelim
Morse
256
Q. Did you notice at all the cellar door, whether it was open or shut?
A. I think when I came from the back of the house, when I got the pears, I think it was open; I wont be sure, but I think it was.
Q. When you first went back of the house?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Wide open, or only partly open?
A. Well I could not say.
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264
Q. How soon was it, you saw that cellar door, as you think, open?
A. That was when I first came, I think when I went right after the pears.
Q. Are you sure the cellar door was open then?
A. I think it was; I am not sure.
Q. Did you shut it up?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you do anything to it?
A. No sir.
Q. Supposing a great many people say it was found shut, would you
Page 265
undertake to contradict them?
A. No sir, I would not.
Q. Was not that door usually kept shut and locked?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Do you have any special remembrance of its being open that day?
A. I think when I came around there, I think I saw that door open.
Q. Did you mention that fact to anybody?
A. I do not know as I have.
Q. Did you ever mention it to any police officer?
A. I cannot say.
Q. Have you ever mentioned (it) to anybody before now?
A. I think I have mentioned it.
Q. To who?
A. I dont know as I could tell you.
Q. I wish you would try and think.
A. I dont think I could tell you.
Q. I mean outside of the counsel for Lizzie Borden. In the course of this investigation, before Lizzie Borden was arrested, will you tell me any officers to whom you ever mentioned the fact that you found that cellar door open?
A. I do not think I could.
Q. You regarded it as of importance enough to talk about did not you?
A. I did not think much of anything about it.
Q. You knew an active inquiry was being prosecuted as to how the murderer got in or out?
A. Yes sir, I supposed so.
Q. Yet you never mentioned that fact?
A. No sir, I may have spoken of it; I think I did.
Q. To a police officer?
A. I think not.
Q. Or anybody connected with the police department?
A. I guess not.
Q. Or to me?
A. No sir.
Q. On the contrary, have not you told me that it was shut?
A. No sir.
.......
266
RE CROSS EXAMINATION.
Q. (By Mr. Jennings.) Allow me to recall to you; didn’t you tell Mr. Charles J. Holmes the first time he came to the house there that you thought this cellar door was open?
(Mr. Knowlton.) I object to the question. What consequence is it whether he told Mr. Holmes or not?
(After a discussion the objection was withdrawn.)
Q. Do you recollect whether the first time Mr. Charles Holmes came there, you told him you thought the cellar door was open?
A. I could not say.
Q. You do not recollect? Do you remember having talked with Mr. Holmes about the matter at all?
A. Yes I think I have talked with him.
Q. This gentleman here?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did he ask you about various things that you saw?
A. We have had conversation.
Q. When was that talk, do you know?
A. I could not tell.
Q. Was not Mr. Holmes up there Thursday night with his wife?
A. I think he was there; I do not think I saw him Thursday night.
Q. Do you remember when he was up there again?
A. I do not. I saw him some night, I cant tell what night it was.
Q. Do not you remember Mr. Holmes asking you to take him out around the house and show him, and asking about the cellar door, and your pointing it out to him, and taking him out there, and showing him where the cellar door was?
A. I do not recollect anything about it.
.....
268 [end of Morse testimony at Prelim]
Mr. Morse recalled.
Q. (By Mr. Jennings.) You were asked the other day when you were on the stand with regard to whether you had informed any person about seeing the cellar door open, and you were asked by me whether you had informed Mr. Holmes or not, and you remember of course what reply you made to the questions; I now want to ask you if you have thought the matter over since?
A. I have.
Q. Do you desire to make any change in your testimony with regard to that?
A. Yes sir.
Q. State what it is.
A. I met Mr. Holmes and his wife down in front----
Q. (By Mr. Knowlton.) What person did you mention it to?
A. Mr. Holmes.
Q. Where and when did you mention it to him?
A. I think at the house after we got through.
Q. Did you meet him at the house?
A. I met him first down in front of the city hall.
Q. Did you walk up with him to the house?
A. Yes sir.
Q. After you got to the house what did you do?
A. Went into the house and showed him over it.
Q. Did you go outside afterwards with him?
A. Yes sir.
Page 269
Q. What did you do outside?
A. Went to the barn.
Q. Did you go into that with him?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Now at what time was it during those proceedings that you told him about the cellar door being open?
A. I think it was after we went out of the house, after being in; I think it was.
Q. While you were going out to the barn?
A. Yes sir, I think it was.
Q. Was that the day of the murder?
A. No sir.
Q. What day was it?
A. I could not tell you; it was after the murder; I do not know but several days after.
Q. What did you do, if anything, at the time you told him about this cellar door? I mean as to whether you pointed it out, or anything of that kind?
(Mr. Knowlton.) It seems to me it is entirely immaterial. He told you he had not told anybody, now he says he has.
(Court.) If you deem it as all material, you may ask the question.
Q. Whether at that time you pointed out the cellar door to him that you said was open?
A. I do not know as I pointed it out, I told him I thought the cellar door was open.
Q. As to whether you pointed the door out to him at the time you told him?
A. I think I did.
- - - -There were 2 doors to the cellar tho. An outer door and an inner door that opened into the cellar. So what Morse thought he saw of the outer door, compared to the condition of the interior door (whether the inner door was *open* or not) makes a big difference. So I don't quite grasp why Morse was fixed on this idea.
Morse
256
Q. Did you notice at all the cellar door, whether it was open or shut?
A. I think when I came from the back of the house, when I got the pears, I think it was open; I wont be sure, but I think it was.
Q. When you first went back of the house?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Wide open, or only partly open?
A. Well I could not say.
-------
264
Q. How soon was it, you saw that cellar door, as you think, open?
A. That was when I first came, I think when I went right after the pears.
Q. Are you sure the cellar door was open then?
A. I think it was; I am not sure.
Q. Did you shut it up?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you do anything to it?
A. No sir.
Q. Supposing a great many people say it was found shut, would you
Page 265
undertake to contradict them?
A. No sir, I would not.
Q. Was not that door usually kept shut and locked?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Do you have any special remembrance of its being open that day?
A. I think when I came around there, I think I saw that door open.
Q. Did you mention that fact to anybody?
A. I do not know as I have.
Q. Did you ever mention it to any police officer?
A. I cannot say.
Q. Have you ever mentioned (it) to anybody before now?
A. I think I have mentioned it.
Q. To who?
A. I dont know as I could tell you.
Q. I wish you would try and think.
A. I dont think I could tell you.
Q. I mean outside of the counsel for Lizzie Borden. In the course of this investigation, before Lizzie Borden was arrested, will you tell me any officers to whom you ever mentioned the fact that you found that cellar door open?
A. I do not think I could.
Q. You regarded it as of importance enough to talk about did not you?
A. I did not think much of anything about it.
Q. You knew an active inquiry was being prosecuted as to how the murderer got in or out?
A. Yes sir, I supposed so.
Q. Yet you never mentioned that fact?
A. No sir, I may have spoken of it; I think I did.
Q. To a police officer?
A. I think not.
Q. Or anybody connected with the police department?
A. I guess not.
Q. Or to me?
A. No sir.
Q. On the contrary, have not you told me that it was shut?
A. No sir.
.......
266
RE CROSS EXAMINATION.
Q. (By Mr. Jennings.) Allow me to recall to you; didn’t you tell Mr. Charles J. Holmes the first time he came to the house there that you thought this cellar door was open?
(Mr. Knowlton.) I object to the question. What consequence is it whether he told Mr. Holmes or not?
(After a discussion the objection was withdrawn.)
Q. Do you recollect whether the first time Mr. Charles Holmes came there, you told him you thought the cellar door was open?
A. I could not say.
Q. You do not recollect? Do you remember having talked with Mr. Holmes about the matter at all?
A. Yes I think I have talked with him.
Q. This gentleman here?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did he ask you about various things that you saw?
A. We have had conversation.
Q. When was that talk, do you know?
A. I could not tell.
Q. Was not Mr. Holmes up there Thursday night with his wife?
A. I think he was there; I do not think I saw him Thursday night.
Q. Do you remember when he was up there again?
A. I do not. I saw him some night, I cant tell what night it was.
Q. Do not you remember Mr. Holmes asking you to take him out around the house and show him, and asking about the cellar door, and your pointing it out to him, and taking him out there, and showing him where the cellar door was?
A. I do not recollect anything about it.
.....
268 [end of Morse testimony at Prelim]
Mr. Morse recalled.
Q. (By Mr. Jennings.) You were asked the other day when you were on the stand with regard to whether you had informed any person about seeing the cellar door open, and you were asked by me whether you had informed Mr. Holmes or not, and you remember of course what reply you made to the questions; I now want to ask you if you have thought the matter over since?
A. I have.
Q. Do you desire to make any change in your testimony with regard to that?
A. Yes sir.
Q. State what it is.
A. I met Mr. Holmes and his wife down in front----
Q. (By Mr. Knowlton.) What person did you mention it to?
A. Mr. Holmes.
Q. Where and when did you mention it to him?
A. I think at the house after we got through.
Q. Did you meet him at the house?
A. I met him first down in front of the city hall.
Q. Did you walk up with him to the house?
A. Yes sir.
Q. After you got to the house what did you do?
A. Went into the house and showed him over it.
Q. Did you go outside afterwards with him?
A. Yes sir.
Page 269
Q. What did you do outside?
A. Went to the barn.
Q. Did you go into that with him?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Now at what time was it during those proceedings that you told him about the cellar door being open?
A. I think it was after we went out of the house, after being in; I think it was.
Q. While you were going out to the barn?
A. Yes sir, I think it was.
Q. Was that the day of the murder?
A. No sir.
Q. What day was it?
A. I could not tell you; it was after the murder; I do not know but several days after.
Q. What did you do, if anything, at the time you told him about this cellar door? I mean as to whether you pointed it out, or anything of that kind?
(Mr. Knowlton.) It seems to me it is entirely immaterial. He told you he had not told anybody, now he says he has.
(Court.) If you deem it as all material, you may ask the question.
Q. Whether at that time you pointed out the cellar door to him that you said was open?
A. I do not know as I pointed it out, I told him I thought the cellar door was open.
Q. As to whether you pointed the door out to him at the time you told him?
A. I think I did.
- - - -There were 2 doors to the cellar tho. An outer door and an inner door that opened into the cellar. So what Morse thought he saw of the outer door, compared to the condition of the interior door (whether the inner door was *open* or not) makes a big difference. So I don't quite grasp why Morse was fixed on this idea.
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Kat
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The preceding testimony seems to show the sequence where Morse came to the property and went to the pear tree first, according to him.
Also note that he did not take police to the cellar to say he thought a murderer entered there and might have stayed until the murders. Maybe that was an author? Or a video misrepresentation about Morse and the cellar door?
Also note that he did not take police to the cellar to say he thought a murderer entered there and might have stayed until the murders. Maybe that was an author? Or a video misrepresentation about Morse and the cellar door?
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Kat
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Allen
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I reread Mrs. Churchill's testimony to find her recollection of John Morse returning.
Inquest testimony of Adelaide B. Churchill page 130:
Q. Where did Mr. Morse come from?
A. That back part of the yard, or from the street.
Q. Where did you first see him?
A. He stepped up on to the steps. I think he came from the east, the steps that come from the yard, but I am not sure, I can't tell you surely.
Inquest testimony of Adelaide B. Churchill page 130:
Q. Where did Mr. Morse come from?
A. That back part of the yard, or from the street.
Q. Where did you first see him?
A. He stepped up on to the steps. I think he came from the east, the steps that come from the yard, but I am not sure, I can't tell you surely.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Shelley
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Maybe too much is inferred from the pear-eating business. Morse may have either simply been hungry, self-absorbed- or at the worst, finally sensing something was badly amiss, realized that there may be NO dinner forthcoming with all that was going on, and had what was to hand and ripe. How I wished somebody had asked the question- "Why did you go pick up pears and eat them before coming inside?" I bet the answer would have been a humdinger. When he does respond to the scene- he says pretty much what all of us would say or expect him to say. Too bad he is tarred with the suspicious brush for not saying it just when we want him to, and for eating a pear to boot.
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Harry
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Morse's stories (plural) in the Evening Standard of Aug. 5th add to the confusion of his trip to the Emery's:
"John W. Morse's Stories
He said that about 20 minutes after 9 o'clock in the morning he left Mr. Borden's house and walked to the City Hall, where he took a car for Weybosset street. He arrived at No. 4 Weybosset street at 9:30 and called on a niece and nephew, who were visiting a family there named Emery. "The first I knew of this affair," said Mr. Morse yesterday noon just after 12 o'clock, "I received a telephone message and went down town. I arrived at Mr. Borden's house at 11:40 and walked in at the gate. I picked up a couple of pears, and glancing in at the door, saw the uniforms of policemen. Bridget met me and said 'Do you know what has happened? The folks are killed.' I went in and saw Mr. Borden's body lying on the lounge; then I went up stairs and saw Mrs. Borden's corpse."
________________________
Mrs. Emery Talks
Mrs. Emery, upon whom Mr. Morse called, was disposed to talk freely to Officer Medley, who interviewed her last evening. She said in reply to questions that she had several callers during the day, and that one of them was John Morse.
“Was Morse the name we heard?” asked the officer of a companion.
“Yes,” retorted Mrs. Emery, quickly, “Morse was the man. He left here at 11:30 o’clock this morning.”
“Then you noticed the time?” observed the officer.
“Oh, yes,” was the reply. “I noticed the time.”
“How did you fix it?” was the next question.
After some little hesitation, Mrs. Emery said that one of her family was sick, and that Dr. Bowen was her physician. “Dr. Bowen came in just as Mr. Morse left.”
“Did they meet?” queried the officer.
“No, they did not,” said Mrs. Emery.
At this point, the niece in question entered the room and corroborated Mrs. Emery’s statements, though both women finally fixed upon 11:20 as the exact time of Mr. Morse’s departure.
Mr. Morse states that he was in the Borden yard at 11:40, and it is a quick trip from Weybosset street to Second street in 10 minutes. He needed the extra 10 minutes which the women gave him. It is necessary to be accurate.
Mrs. Emery volunteered information that Mr. Morse was well-to-do, at least she supposed he was comfortably off and that he had come East to spend his money. She was not positive on this point, however. Morse’s niece was asked if she had ever seen her uncle before, and replied that she had. She had met him when she was five years old, and three weeks ago he had taken her from the cars at Warren to the Borden farm, Swanzey.
Mr. Morse’s memory in regard to his niece is somewhat defective. He had said that he went to call on her for the first time yesterday. He was interviewed again.
“I thought that you told me, Mr. Morse,” said the interviewer, “that you never saw your niece before to-day?”
“I never did,” replied Mr. Morse.
“She says,” was the rejoinder, “that you met her in Warren and drove her to Swanzey.”
“Ah, that is so. I did,” said Mr. Morse. “I saw her for just a moment or so.”
“And I thought you told me,” resumed the interviewer, “that you first learned of this affair by a telephone message when you were in another part of the city?”
“You are mistaken,” said Mr. Morse, “I said no such thing.”
“But you did,” persisted his questioner, “and I will take my oath on it.”
“You are mistaken,” Morse replied once more."
No mention of Sawyer. No exclamation of "How did this happen ...". No mention of crowds.
His reference to the telephone call and Mrs. Emery's to Dr. Bowen have always been mysteries.
"John W. Morse's Stories
He said that about 20 minutes after 9 o'clock in the morning he left Mr. Borden's house and walked to the City Hall, where he took a car for Weybosset street. He arrived at No. 4 Weybosset street at 9:30 and called on a niece and nephew, who were visiting a family there named Emery. "The first I knew of this affair," said Mr. Morse yesterday noon just after 12 o'clock, "I received a telephone message and went down town. I arrived at Mr. Borden's house at 11:40 and walked in at the gate. I picked up a couple of pears, and glancing in at the door, saw the uniforms of policemen. Bridget met me and said 'Do you know what has happened? The folks are killed.' I went in and saw Mr. Borden's body lying on the lounge; then I went up stairs and saw Mrs. Borden's corpse."
________________________
Mrs. Emery Talks
Mrs. Emery, upon whom Mr. Morse called, was disposed to talk freely to Officer Medley, who interviewed her last evening. She said in reply to questions that she had several callers during the day, and that one of them was John Morse.
“Was Morse the name we heard?” asked the officer of a companion.
“Yes,” retorted Mrs. Emery, quickly, “Morse was the man. He left here at 11:30 o’clock this morning.”
“Then you noticed the time?” observed the officer.
“Oh, yes,” was the reply. “I noticed the time.”
“How did you fix it?” was the next question.
After some little hesitation, Mrs. Emery said that one of her family was sick, and that Dr. Bowen was her physician. “Dr. Bowen came in just as Mr. Morse left.”
“Did they meet?” queried the officer.
“No, they did not,” said Mrs. Emery.
At this point, the niece in question entered the room and corroborated Mrs. Emery’s statements, though both women finally fixed upon 11:20 as the exact time of Mr. Morse’s departure.
Mr. Morse states that he was in the Borden yard at 11:40, and it is a quick trip from Weybosset street to Second street in 10 minutes. He needed the extra 10 minutes which the women gave him. It is necessary to be accurate.
Mrs. Emery volunteered information that Mr. Morse was well-to-do, at least she supposed he was comfortably off and that he had come East to spend his money. She was not positive on this point, however. Morse’s niece was asked if she had ever seen her uncle before, and replied that she had. She had met him when she was five years old, and three weeks ago he had taken her from the cars at Warren to the Borden farm, Swanzey.
Mr. Morse’s memory in regard to his niece is somewhat defective. He had said that he went to call on her for the first time yesterday. He was interviewed again.
“I thought that you told me, Mr. Morse,” said the interviewer, “that you never saw your niece before to-day?”
“I never did,” replied Mr. Morse.
“She says,” was the rejoinder, “that you met her in Warren and drove her to Swanzey.”
“Ah, that is so. I did,” said Mr. Morse. “I saw her for just a moment or so.”
“And I thought you told me,” resumed the interviewer, “that you first learned of this affair by a telephone message when you were in another part of the city?”
“You are mistaken,” said Mr. Morse, “I said no such thing.”
“But you did,” persisted his questioner, “and I will take my oath on it.”
“You are mistaken,” Morse replied once more."
No mention of Sawyer. No exclamation of "How did this happen ...". No mention of crowds.
His reference to the telephone call and Mrs. Emery's to Dr. Bowen have always been mysteries.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
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Shelley
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Yes, they sure are full of contradictions. I have learned through years of pulling through Titanic newspaper articles, that more often than not, newspaper articles are not the best sources to be trusted, and reporters either fill in the blanks, get it all wrong, out of context, or outright make-up stuff to sell papers. Things have improved somewhat today- thanks to the possibility of law suits !
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SallyG
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It sounds as if Mrs. Churchill is really not certain WHERE John Morse came from...he COULD have come from the back yard...but he also COULD have come from the street. Mr. Sawyer seems to be more sure that John Morse came from the street.Allen @ Thu May 29, 2008 4:00 am wrote:I reread Mrs. Churchill's testimony to find her recollection of John Morse returning.
Inquest testimony of Adelaide B. Churchill page 130:
Q. Where did Mr. Morse come from?
A. That back part of the yard, or from the street.
Q. Where did you first see him?
A. He stepped up on to the steps. I think he came from the east, the steps that come from the yard, but I am not sure, I can't tell you surely.
There DO seem to be a lot of versions of John Morse's movements. If he had been involved or known what was happening before the fact, wouldn't it make sense that he would have had his story down pat and not diverted from it? His uncertainty gives the impression of someone who is trying to remember exactly what DID happen.
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Shelley
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It's the nature of the beast- everybody remembers a thing differently after the fact. I put the most faith in the early witness statements- things were still fresh in the mind. Still, it is so easy to muddle the just whens and hows and wheres, especially if there is a great comotion, many people coming and going, distractions galore, many people pressing you for answers, etc. I am a hopeless case when it comes to household appliances- did I turn the iron off today, or am I recalling it yesterday? Did I put the damper down on the woodstove this morning?- did I see a delivery van this morning or was it Sunday morning? I would also point out that men from a distance, could look similar in 1892. Beards, dark suit- great conformity in daywear. Was it John Morse or John Coughlin out in the street, at the gate, from the back,etc.? Just how well did some of the neighbors know John Morse's appearance?
I have to agree, Sally- none of the doings smack remotely of the John Morse approach -he would have had a MUCH better plan, execution, and story.
I have to agree, Sally- none of the doings smack remotely of the John Morse approach -he would have had a MUCH better plan, execution, and story.
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DJ
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Shelley, thanks for the wonderful pictures!!!
Couldn't Morse have gone around from the pear tree, out the gate at the front door, then back through the driveway gate, which is where Sawyer claims to see him, from the top of the steps at the side door?
***One thing remains steadfast about Morse's testimony, all the way through, and it's picking/eating those pears! I still say someone must have seen him doing it, and he knew he'd better at least stick to that part of his story.***
Harry, thanks for the newspaper articles-- they don't speak well of Morse's veracity, if all the facts are correct.
Kat, here's a quote from John Fleet's police statement on Morse, the day of the murders. Right after Fleet questions Morse: "Mr. Morse afterwards asked if I suspected that the murderer could have been concealed in the house last night."
It's the flip side of Hiram Harrington saying it's one of the household. Morse is immediately attempting to lead the police down an "outsider did it" route. He has an alibi. Why should he be concerned what the police think, or attempt to lead them?
Thanks for the testimony about the cellar door-- Morse definitely tries to leave that possibility "open," as it were. He could have said, "I don't remember whether it was open or closed," and left it vague at that. Instead, he opts for "open."
Another thought: Why does a notorious penny-pincher pay for a streetcar ride back? He leaves the Emerys' at 11:20. He's been sitting around ever since he arrived-- he's not pooped. He has forty minutes till dinner. Isn't that enough time to walk back?
Couldn't Morse have gone around from the pear tree, out the gate at the front door, then back through the driveway gate, which is where Sawyer claims to see him, from the top of the steps at the side door?
***One thing remains steadfast about Morse's testimony, all the way through, and it's picking/eating those pears! I still say someone must have seen him doing it, and he knew he'd better at least stick to that part of his story.***
Harry, thanks for the newspaper articles-- they don't speak well of Morse's veracity, if all the facts are correct.
Kat, here's a quote from John Fleet's police statement on Morse, the day of the murders. Right after Fleet questions Morse: "Mr. Morse afterwards asked if I suspected that the murderer could have been concealed in the house last night."
It's the flip side of Hiram Harrington saying it's one of the household. Morse is immediately attempting to lead the police down an "outsider did it" route. He has an alibi. Why should he be concerned what the police think, or attempt to lead them?
Thanks for the testimony about the cellar door-- Morse definitely tries to leave that possibility "open," as it were. He could have said, "I don't remember whether it was open or closed," and left it vague at that. Instead, he opts for "open."
Another thought: Why does a notorious penny-pincher pay for a streetcar ride back? He leaves the Emerys' at 11:20. He's been sitting around ever since he arrived-- he's not pooped. He has forty minutes till dinner. Isn't that enough time to walk back?
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Shelley
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Couldn't Morse have gone around from the pear tree, out the gate at the front door, then back through the driveway gate, which is where Sawyer claims to see him, from the top of the steps at the side door?
Well, after studying the photos further, it looks like the front fence is not attached to the side of the house on the southwest end, which means somebody could walk around the south end and be inside the fence and gates at the front of the house. Initially though, he would have had to go through one of those west gates to get inside the fence. He either went to the side door first and had that conversation with Sawyer, then went to the back yard, or vice versa. Logically, I think he entered the driveway gate, walked to the back yard pear tree (which is only steps from the side door-not a great distance at all- picked up the pears, then approached the side door with his query. Makes more sense to me that way.
Well, after studying the photos further, it looks like the front fence is not attached to the side of the house on the southwest end, which means somebody could walk around the south end and be inside the fence and gates at the front of the house. Initially though, he would have had to go through one of those west gates to get inside the fence. He either went to the side door first and had that conversation with Sawyer, then went to the back yard, or vice versa. Logically, I think he entered the driveway gate, walked to the back yard pear tree (which is only steps from the side door-not a great distance at all- picked up the pears, then approached the side door with his query. Makes more sense to me that way.
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DJ
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Shelley, thanks-- I'm just trying to create a scenario in which Sawyer's testimony could be correct, vis a vis Morse's. Morse says he goes from the pear tree to the side door, evidently without being seen approaching the pear tree. He testifies that Sawyer answers the side door.
Sawyer says he sees Morse approaching from the driveway gate and coming directly to the side door, then entering the house forthwith. No pear tree.
If Sawyer is correct, then the only way Morse could have had his pears was to have approached the tree without being seen by Sawyer, come round the front and out the gate at the front door, onto the sidewalk, then back through the driveway gate.
If Sawyer is incorrect, then all this is moot.
If he is correct-- and Morse is correct about his eating pears before entering-- then what other explanation is there?
Sawyer says he sees Morse approaching from the driveway gate and coming directly to the side door, then entering the house forthwith. No pear tree.
If Sawyer is correct, then the only way Morse could have had his pears was to have approached the tree without being seen by Sawyer, come round the front and out the gate at the front door, onto the sidewalk, then back through the driveway gate.
If Sawyer is incorrect, then all this is moot.
If he is correct-- and Morse is correct about his eating pears before entering-- then what other explanation is there?
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Shelley
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Morse would not have had to go out the front gate and back on the street to go in the driveway gate- he could just have gone around the house, passed the front door and walked right onto the driveway. Seems a VERY odd thing to go in the driveway gate, go all the way around the house, back to the front gate (inside the fence), go out the front gate, walk a few steps then go IN the driveway gate again. With all those people on the sidewalk peering at the house- you have to believe somebody would have seen that oddball maneuver. Yes, I see the dilemma. Well, you also have to remember that the barn and house were 10 feet closer together than they are today, the back yard was shadier, and standing on the side step platform on the threshold (and in 1892 it had NO canopy as it does today) you cannot SEE into the back yard at all at the place where the pear trees were located.
My gut feeling is that Sawyer did not see Morse go to the pear tree, or Morse went to the pear tree, then returned to the gate to learn more, , then approached to address Sawyer when he learned something was wrong and thus approached somebody in authority or somebody who looked like they may know something. Remember , this was not his own house and he would not have just burst in without being admitted. Sawyer does not say if he ever looked inside the house, turned his back, was distracted, went into the long back hallway, changed directions on his post, etc. If I had been Sawyer, you bet I would be nosy enough to peer inside the screen, try to listen what was going on inside- all he was charged with doing was preventing unwanted people from going in the side door.
My gut feeling is that Sawyer did not see Morse go to the pear tree, or Morse went to the pear tree, then returned to the gate to learn more, , then approached to address Sawyer when he learned something was wrong and thus approached somebody in authority or somebody who looked like they may know something. Remember , this was not his own house and he would not have just burst in without being admitted. Sawyer does not say if he ever looked inside the house, turned his back, was distracted, went into the long back hallway, changed directions on his post, etc. If I had been Sawyer, you bet I would be nosy enough to peer inside the screen, try to listen what was going on inside- all he was charged with doing was preventing unwanted people from going in the side door.
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Harry
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Partial quote:
In Sawyer's Preliminary and Trial testimony he said he was inside the house several times. He describes seeing Lizzie in the kitchen and being a few feet from her, seeing Dr. Dolan and Mrs. Churchill, Mayor Coughlin examining the axes, locking the cellar door, walking back and forth in the passageway, etc. Morse could have passed easily by when Sawyer was away.Shelley @ Thu May 29, 2008 3:05 pm wrote:My gut feeling is that Sawyer did not see Morse go to the pear tree, or Morse went to the pear tree, then returned to the gate to learn more, , then approached to address Sawyer when he learned something was wrong and thus approached somebody in authority or somebody who looked like they may know something. Remember , this was not his own house and he would not have just burst in without being admitted. Sawyer does not say if he ever looked inside the house, turned his back, was distracted, went into the long back hallway, changed directions on his post, etc. If I had been Sawyer, you bet I would be nosy enough to peer inside the screen, try to listen what was going on inside- all he was charged with doing was preventing unwanted people from going in the side door.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
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DJ
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Harry,
Going back to your newspaper-clip postings--
If Morse left just as Dr. Bowen entered-- that's quite something. And that's such a definite thing for Mrs. Emery to recall-- one man entering, one leaving--
Makes one wonder just how long Morse was back at that pear tree.
It's ironic that those pears are so tied to Lizzie's absence from the house when her Father was murdered, and that they're so tied to questions about Morse's actions, upon his return.
Going back to your newspaper-clip postings--
If Morse left just as Dr. Bowen entered-- that's quite something. And that's such a definite thing for Mrs. Emery to recall-- one man entering, one leaving--
Makes one wonder just how long Morse was back at that pear tree.
It's ironic that those pears are so tied to Lizzie's absence from the house when her Father was murdered, and that they're so tied to questions about Morse's actions, upon his return.
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bob_m_ryan
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Harry
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Yes, DJ, the reference to Dr. Bowen is peculiar. We have looked at that in the past and I have never lent much credence to it.
Dr. Bowen at the inquest said that his "boy" drove him to the telegraph office and then to Baker's drug store and then back to the Borden house. It would seem to me that if he was on some secretive mission to the Emery house he wouldn't want his driver along. The "boy", last name of Chase, could have been easily questioned about any side trips.
If Mrs. Emery and the niece are correct and Morse left at 11:20 then Dr. Bowen would have had to arrive there at that time since they claim Dr Bowen arrived just when Morse was leaving. Dr Bowen says he learned of the murders sometime after 11 and before 11:30. He would have had to have left for the Emery's almost as soon as he found out. We know that that isn't true since he went into the Borden house upon learning of the murders.
We know Dr. Bowen was at the telegraph office at 11:32 so he would have had to go to the Emery house before he sent the telegram.
Dr. Bowen at the inquest said that his "boy" drove him to the telegraph office and then to Baker's drug store and then back to the Borden house. It would seem to me that if he was on some secretive mission to the Emery house he wouldn't want his driver along. The "boy", last name of Chase, could have been easily questioned about any side trips.
If Mrs. Emery and the niece are correct and Morse left at 11:20 then Dr. Bowen would have had to arrive there at that time since they claim Dr Bowen arrived just when Morse was leaving. Dr Bowen says he learned of the murders sometime after 11 and before 11:30. He would have had to have left for the Emery's almost as soon as he found out. We know that that isn't true since he went into the Borden house upon learning of the murders.
We know Dr. Bowen was at the telegraph office at 11:32 so he would have had to go to the Emery house before he sent the telegram.
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And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
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Harry
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Yes, Bob, you could get to the front door from the driveway or the south yard. This is a view showing the south side of the house and the front entrance. Both gates are visible.bob_m_ryan @ Thu May 29, 2008 5:56 pm wrote:About the gates ---
So, a person could walk around the house from the driveway to the other side and be able to exit the backyard in the front of the house via the front gate, correct?
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
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Shelley
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Good- I had a feeling Sawyer was not just staring at the street and who came up and down the driveway all day. I also think if anyone walked all the way around the house and came up from the southwest corner to the front door, they would have been seen by somebody as this is the facade where all the crowds were waiting and watching like hawks.
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Allen
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The Witness Statements page 29, notes of William H. Medley, Aug. 4, 1892:
John V. Morse stated to me that be left the Borden homestead on Second street at about 8.50 A. M. and went to see a nephew and niece whom he had never seen before, so he said, who were stopping at Mr. Emery’s at No. 4 Weybosset street. Mr. Morse said he went there, and remained until 11.30 arriving there at about 9.30. Leaving No. 4 Weybosset at 11.30, he said he took a street car going directly back to the Borden home, arriving there about 11.50, when he found that Mr and Mrs. Borden had been
murdered; that was the first he knew of it. He told Reporter Porter of the Daily Globe that the first he knew of it was when he was telephoned for.
I'm wondering if this was somehow misunderstood by Porter. How could Morse have learned of it by telephone? Did the Emery's have a telephone?
Where else could anyone have reached him, and who would've had a telephone to make the call in the first place? Simple questions, but very important.
John V. Morse stated to me that be left the Borden homestead on Second street at about 8.50 A. M. and went to see a nephew and niece whom he had never seen before, so he said, who were stopping at Mr. Emery’s at No. 4 Weybosset street. Mr. Morse said he went there, and remained until 11.30 arriving there at about 9.30. Leaving No. 4 Weybosset at 11.30, he said he took a street car going directly back to the Borden home, arriving there about 11.50, when he found that Mr and Mrs. Borden had been
murdered; that was the first he knew of it. He told Reporter Porter of the Daily Globe that the first he knew of it was when he was telephoned for.
I'm wondering if this was somehow misunderstood by Porter. How could Morse have learned of it by telephone? Did the Emery's have a telephone?
Where else could anyone have reached him, and who would've had a telephone to make the call in the first place? Simple questions, but very important.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Shelley
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DJ
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I'm wondering if the Emerys had a phone, too, Allen.
If they did, Mrs. Emery makes no mention of the call, according to the police statement from when Morse's alibi was checked with her. However, she does say that Morse leaves her with the impression that he is headed straight for New Bedford, which I find odd. Why not say he's headed back to the Bordens', because he's been invited to dinner, which would also have excused him from her dinner invitation, if that's something he didn't care to pursue anyway.
Anyway, if the Emerys' didn't have a phone, this would appear to be an erroneous newspaper report.
What if they did-- and what if someone were trying to reach Dr. Bowen with the news? It's all possible, if the 11:20 is off by a few minutes, on the short end. Bridget doesn't learn that Mr. Borden is dead till after eleven. (BTW: Did the Bowens' have a phone? It seems as if an MD would.)
If they did, Mrs. Emery makes no mention of the call, according to the police statement from when Morse's alibi was checked with her. However, she does say that Morse leaves her with the impression that he is headed straight for New Bedford, which I find odd. Why not say he's headed back to the Bordens', because he's been invited to dinner, which would also have excused him from her dinner invitation, if that's something he didn't care to pursue anyway.
Anyway, if the Emerys' didn't have a phone, this would appear to be an erroneous newspaper report.
What if they did-- and what if someone were trying to reach Dr. Bowen with the news? It's all possible, if the 11:20 is off by a few minutes, on the short end. Bridget doesn't learn that Mr. Borden is dead till after eleven. (BTW: Did the Bowens' have a phone? It seems as if an MD would.)
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Kat
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Dr. Bowen in The Knowlton Papers:
HK113
Letter, handwritten in ink, enclosed in holograph [handwritten] envelope.
Fall River Dec 2nd/92
I have a few words of importance that I think will be of service in
Lizzie Borden’s Case. on the day of the murder I was coming towards Fall
River from the Shove Mill, where I met Doctor Bowen and a young man
In a Carriage, driving so fast that I turned around to look after them. I
thought at the time that someone was dieing and He was going to see
them. I am well acquainted with Him, but I never saw Him look so wild in
my life before, it was 15 about minuets to eleven. the young man
was sitting on the left side of the Doctor. I met them near the Slade
School house, the Doctor had hold of the reins with both hands, driving
for dear life. has Doctor Bowen ever been questioned were He was on the
morning of the Murder. this is the truth and nothing but the truth.
A map showing this area might be helpful.
HK113
Letter, handwritten in ink, enclosed in holograph [handwritten] envelope.
Fall River Dec 2nd/92
I have a few words of importance that I think will be of service in
Lizzie Borden’s Case. on the day of the murder I was coming towards Fall
River from the Shove Mill, where I met Doctor Bowen and a young man
In a Carriage, driving so fast that I turned around to look after them. I
thought at the time that someone was dieing and He was going to see
them. I am well acquainted with Him, but I never saw Him look so wild in
my life before, it was 15 about minuets to eleven. the young man
was sitting on the left side of the Doctor. I met them near the Slade
School house, the Doctor had hold of the reins with both hands, driving
for dear life. has Doctor Bowen ever been questioned were He was on the
morning of the Murder. this is the truth and nothing but the truth.
A map showing this area might be helpful.
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Kat
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If you'all missed the theories our old member Jeffery had proposed, here are links to 3 discussions.
"Jeffery's Theory", May 29, 2004
viewtopic.php?t=168
"William A. Davis", November 9,, 2004
viewtopic.php?p=5467&highlight=#5467
"L.A.B.did not kill...", November 14, 2004
viewtopic.php?p=5614&highlight=#5614
"Jeffery's Theory", May 29, 2004
viewtopic.php?t=168
"William A. Davis", November 9,, 2004
viewtopic.php?p=5467&highlight=#5467
"L.A.B.did not kill...", November 14, 2004
viewtopic.php?p=5614&highlight=#5614
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Allen
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If Dr. Bowen was indeed driving so frantically, wouldn't he have been noticed by others in town as well? Wouldn't someone else have come forward about it? There were others who were reported to have been acting strangely on the day of the murders. Dr. Handy is one of those people that a witness saw allegedly acting strangely. But there were so many who came forward with information that was later proved false, or inaccurate, I take it all with a grain of salt.
The Witness Statements page 19, notes of Harrington and Doherty:
James E. Cunneen, No. 17 Freedom street. “Drove up Second street that day, and the only strange thing I observed was Dr.Handy’s actions. His carriage was drawn up to the west side of the street, about opposite Dr. Kelly’s yard. He sat in the buggy and was quickly turning his head from right to left, and left to right. He seemed very nervous, and his strange actions caused me to look around to see what was the occasion of this; but I observed nothing. Before I reached where he was standing, he started and drove slowly down the street by me.
The Witness Statements page 19, notes of Harrington and Doherty:
James E. Cunneen, No. 17 Freedom street. “Drove up Second street that day, and the only strange thing I observed was Dr.Handy’s actions. His carriage was drawn up to the west side of the street, about opposite Dr. Kelly’s yard. He sat in the buggy and was quickly turning his head from right to left, and left to right. He seemed very nervous, and his strange actions caused me to look around to see what was the occasion of this; but I observed nothing. Before I reached where he was standing, he started and drove slowly down the street by me.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Allen
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As for the theory John Morse killed Andrew over his Swansea farm, if this was the case after their deaths why did he not just buy the property? He was family after all. If Lizzie was in on the murders her motivation would've been Andrews money and the fear of it going to Abby. If Morse bought the property she would profit from it, adding to her wealth, and Morse would get the property he supposedly was angry enough to kill for. Yet this never took place.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Harry
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According to Mrs. Dr. Bowen (Witness statements, p10) the doctor went to the Borden house at 11:25:
"Mrs. Doctor Bowen. “Was sitting at the parlor window awaiting the return of my daughter. I concluded she was not coming; got up, went through the sitting room, looked at the clock which indicated 10.55. Went through the dining room into the next room for a piece of cloth of ten yards, which I wished to measure and cut in two. I had not finished measuring, when the door bell rang violently. I went to the call, and found Mr. Borden’s work girl, who wanted the Doctor, who was out. Dr. Bowen returned home and went to Mr. Borden’s at 11.25.”
He could make it back home from Weybossett street in 5 minutes in a carriage (assuming he arrived at 11:20 when Morse was said to leave) but his visit must have been an awfully short one.
The Slade school was in the south part of Fall River about 10 blocks south of Kennedy Park (then South Park). There would be no reason to drive furiously to get to Weybossett at 11:20 when he was supposedly seen near the Slade school at 10:45. You probably could walk there in that 35 minutes.
I would take that letter more seriously if it had been signed and not dated 4 months after the crimes.
"Mrs. Doctor Bowen. “Was sitting at the parlor window awaiting the return of my daughter. I concluded she was not coming; got up, went through the sitting room, looked at the clock which indicated 10.55. Went through the dining room into the next room for a piece of cloth of ten yards, which I wished to measure and cut in two. I had not finished measuring, when the door bell rang violently. I went to the call, and found Mr. Borden’s work girl, who wanted the Doctor, who was out. Dr. Bowen returned home and went to Mr. Borden’s at 11.25.”
He could make it back home from Weybossett street in 5 minutes in a carriage (assuming he arrived at 11:20 when Morse was said to leave) but his visit must have been an awfully short one.
The Slade school was in the south part of Fall River about 10 blocks south of Kennedy Park (then South Park). There would be no reason to drive furiously to get to Weybossett at 11:20 when he was supposedly seen near the Slade school at 10:45. You probably could walk there in that 35 minutes.
I would take that letter more seriously if it had been signed and not dated 4 months after the crimes.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
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DJ
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It's interesting that Morse is out to the farm the day before the murders. As I recall, he has to hire the team to get there, just as he opts to pay for two streetcar rides the a.m. of the Fourth. For a man who does not part with money lightly, those expenditures are of note.
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If the Emerys' had a phone, and, if a phone call came for Dr. Bowen (perhaps from his wife, after Bridget ran over there?) before he arrived to examine the ailing niece, with someone saying that he was needed at the Bordens' urgently, and Morse overheard this--
It would explain why he didn't say he was going back there for dinner. ***It's odd that he chooses to disassociate himself from the Bordens that a.m.***
Morse leaves in haste, missing Dr. Bowen on his way in-- the Dr. turns around and heads back to the Bordens' in his carriage.
Morse arrives earlier at the Bordens' house than previously thought, heads out to the pear tree, sizing up events as they develop. When Sawyer clears the crowd, Morse slips around the side of the house in the hubbub and around the front, so that Sawyer's testimony of seeing him come up the drive, around noon, is correct.
Morse sticks with his story about the pears because he has been seen, and he fears a witness(es) coming forward.
Of course, all this "works" only if Mrs. Emery is correct about Dr. Bowen dropping by-- it would be interesting to know if he was indeed their physician of choice, as she claims.
************************************************************
A side note here: There's Mrs. Bowen, conveniently looking out the front all a.m. for her daughter, who is conveniently late, or so she says. Maybe she was never expected that a.m., but later. Could be on the up and up. The Dr. seems to be more on Lizzie's side than not-- could Mrs. Bowen be fudging here? Did the Bowens have a phone? Could Mrs. Bowen have phoned Mrs. Emery after Bridget came running over?
************************************************************
I realize it would be difficult to get to the bottom of the phone business. However, you noble historians of life in Fall River at the time surely have a take on how widespread phones were in the city at the time.
*************************************************************
************************************************************
If the Emerys' had a phone, and, if a phone call came for Dr. Bowen (perhaps from his wife, after Bridget ran over there?) before he arrived to examine the ailing niece, with someone saying that he was needed at the Bordens' urgently, and Morse overheard this--
It would explain why he didn't say he was going back there for dinner. ***It's odd that he chooses to disassociate himself from the Bordens that a.m.***
Morse leaves in haste, missing Dr. Bowen on his way in-- the Dr. turns around and heads back to the Bordens' in his carriage.
Morse arrives earlier at the Bordens' house than previously thought, heads out to the pear tree, sizing up events as they develop. When Sawyer clears the crowd, Morse slips around the side of the house in the hubbub and around the front, so that Sawyer's testimony of seeing him come up the drive, around noon, is correct.
Morse sticks with his story about the pears because he has been seen, and he fears a witness(es) coming forward.
Of course, all this "works" only if Mrs. Emery is correct about Dr. Bowen dropping by-- it would be interesting to know if he was indeed their physician of choice, as she claims.
************************************************************
A side note here: There's Mrs. Bowen, conveniently looking out the front all a.m. for her daughter, who is conveniently late, or so she says. Maybe she was never expected that a.m., but later. Could be on the up and up. The Dr. seems to be more on Lizzie's side than not-- could Mrs. Bowen be fudging here? Did the Bowens have a phone? Could Mrs. Bowen have phoned Mrs. Emery after Bridget came running over?
************************************************************
I realize it would be difficult to get to the bottom of the phone business. However, you noble historians of life in Fall River at the time surely have a take on how widespread phones were in the city at the time.
*************************************************************
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Allen
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I do not put any faith into the newspaper report that John Morse first learned of the murders by telephone. There are too many uncertainties attached. As I stated before we don't know that the Emery's had a telephone. Or who would have a phone to make the call, or how they would even know his whereabouts. However, just out of curiosity I did check into a few things to try and answer DJ's questions about the telephones.
Trial testimony Dr. Seabury Bowen page 324:
Q. When was the autopsy or official examination for the purpose of getting the cause of death made on the Body of Mr. Borden?
A. I had a telephone messege to be there at 3 o'clock.
Trial testimony of John Cunningham page 421:
Q. In consequence of learning that what did you do, or after learning it what did you do?
A. There is a paintshop on the corner of Borden and Second Streets, that is Mr. Gorman's paint shop. I went in there and asked for the use of his telephone.
Q. Did you telephone?
A. To the city marshal.
Trial testimony of Patrick H. Doherty page 594:
Q. Did you go to the police station?
A. I did not.
Q. After that was done, what did you do?
A. I went to notify the Marshal.
Q. That is, you did nothing else in the house at that time?
A. Not at that time, no, sir.
Q. Did you go to the police station?
A. I did not; I went to the nearest telephone that I could get.
Q. Perhaps you will tell us where that telephone was?
A. Mr. Gorman's or Mr. McDermott's undertaking rooms, I don't know which.
Dr. Chagnon also had a telephone that Lucy Collet said she was sitting outside listening for while Dr. Chagnon was away that morning.
Trial testimony Dr. Seabury Bowen page 324:
Q. When was the autopsy or official examination for the purpose of getting the cause of death made on the Body of Mr. Borden?
A. I had a telephone messege to be there at 3 o'clock.
Trial testimony of John Cunningham page 421:
Q. In consequence of learning that what did you do, or after learning it what did you do?
A. There is a paintshop on the corner of Borden and Second Streets, that is Mr. Gorman's paint shop. I went in there and asked for the use of his telephone.
Q. Did you telephone?
A. To the city marshal.
Trial testimony of Patrick H. Doherty page 594:
Q. Did you go to the police station?
A. I did not.
Q. After that was done, what did you do?
A. I went to notify the Marshal.
Q. That is, you did nothing else in the house at that time?
A. Not at that time, no, sir.
Q. Did you go to the police station?
A. I did not; I went to the nearest telephone that I could get.
Q. Perhaps you will tell us where that telephone was?
A. Mr. Gorman's or Mr. McDermott's undertaking rooms, I don't know which.
Dr. Chagnon also had a telephone that Lucy Collet said she was sitting outside listening for while Dr. Chagnon was away that morning.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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DJ
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This raises a question about businesses and perhaps residents "relaying" messages to individuals without phones. I wonder about the availability of public phones, too: Were there boxes on the street, or just in business establishments, for public use (pay)?
What I'm saying is-- it seems as if it would be handy enough to find a pay phone to place a call. I'm wondering, too, if someone from, say, the drugstore would be willing to run a phone message to a nearby house (in hopes of a tip, no doubt, as well).
IOW: What was *customary* at the time?
What I'm saying is-- it seems as if it would be handy enough to find a pay phone to place a call. I'm wondering, too, if someone from, say, the drugstore would be willing to run a phone message to a nearby house (in hopes of a tip, no doubt, as well).
IOW: What was *customary* at the time?
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Shelley
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Here's a good round -up of phone facts http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inven ... ephone.htm
Pay phones were around according to the link, in 1888- but I suspect there were not many. As to whether Fall River had them, or widespread private home telephones, that needs to be delved into by those folks who love to do it!
Pay phones were around according to the link, in 1888- but I suspect there were not many. As to whether Fall River had them, or widespread private home telephones, that needs to be delved into by those folks who love to do it!
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DJ
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Sorry to double-post again, but I did want to address the question, per my possible (???) scenario, about knowing where to find Morse to telephone him--
If the call came for Bowen, and not Morse (but Morse overheard: "You're needed at the Bordens', double-quick," or some such), one could see why Morse would backtrack on having received a telephone message-- he did, but it wasn't intended for him.
Of course, all this depends on the accuracy of the newspaper account, as well as Mrs. Emery's statement that Bowen was arriving as Morse was leaving. However, what these two accounts have going for them is that they come so close to the murders, not weeks or months in hindsight.
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Thanks, Kat, for your posting the thread, and it is interesting that Morse went to Swansea the day before the murders.
I can picture a ticked-off Morse saying to Lizzie, "Your Father won't sell me the farm; he's deeding it to Mrs. Borden."
We know how the daughters reacted before when he deeded property to Mrs. Borden's relations.
This goes back to my references re Morse feeding the nieces info about Mr. Borden's business, knowing full well that they might resort to murder in retaliation over some of their Father's business transactions (as well as the will, if Morse knew about that, too).
It seems probable that there wasn't too much love between Mrs. Borden and Morse. Maybe he was hoping Lizzie would whack Mrs. Borden, and leave it at that. It's entirely possible, if the "I want the farm"
story flies, that he had turned against Mr. B as well, for refusing to sell.
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It's so easy for family members to turn bitter against one another, to stop speaking, to start speaking ill of one another, to create festering problems with other family members forced to take sides-- particularly over intra-family business proposals gone sour.
I see it happen too frequently-- and I think we can all think of "for instance's." Sadly.
I can picture Morse being ticked to his core if he wanted that farm, and Mrs. Borden didn't want him to have it, and Mr. Borden was caught in the middle.
I still think Morse (and Emma) had prior knowledge of Lizzie's plan, and that he was there for "damage control." Emma may have sent him there with the hatchet, because the plot to poison wasn't working.
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If the call came for Bowen, and not Morse (but Morse overheard: "You're needed at the Bordens', double-quick," or some such), one could see why Morse would backtrack on having received a telephone message-- he did, but it wasn't intended for him.
Of course, all this depends on the accuracy of the newspaper account, as well as Mrs. Emery's statement that Bowen was arriving as Morse was leaving. However, what these two accounts have going for them is that they come so close to the murders, not weeks or months in hindsight.
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Thanks, Kat, for your posting the thread, and it is interesting that Morse went to Swansea the day before the murders.
I can picture a ticked-off Morse saying to Lizzie, "Your Father won't sell me the farm; he's deeding it to Mrs. Borden."
We know how the daughters reacted before when he deeded property to Mrs. Borden's relations.
This goes back to my references re Morse feeding the nieces info about Mr. Borden's business, knowing full well that they might resort to murder in retaliation over some of their Father's business transactions (as well as the will, if Morse knew about that, too).
It seems probable that there wasn't too much love between Mrs. Borden and Morse. Maybe he was hoping Lizzie would whack Mrs. Borden, and leave it at that. It's entirely possible, if the "I want the farm"
story flies, that he had turned against Mr. B as well, for refusing to sell.
***********************************************************
It's so easy for family members to turn bitter against one another, to stop speaking, to start speaking ill of one another, to create festering problems with other family members forced to take sides-- particularly over intra-family business proposals gone sour.
I see it happen too frequently-- and I think we can all think of "for instance's." Sadly.
I can picture Morse being ticked to his core if he wanted that farm, and Mrs. Borden didn't want him to have it, and Mr. Borden was caught in the middle.
I still think Morse (and Emma) had prior knowledge of Lizzie's plan, and that he was there for "damage control." Emma may have sent him there with the hatchet, because the plot to poison wasn't working.
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Shelley
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Just pondering all of the above, I have to say:
1.Morse had enough money to buy his own farm in Swansea.
2. What is the source for Morse not liking Abby and vice versa? I never saw any testimony to that effect anywhere.
3. Morse was going over to see about some oxen, and also about a hired man he had mentioned to Andrew some time before (I think Andrew was needing one). He ate supper over there, picked up the eggs to bring back to Andrew, and probably because the hour was getting late when he returned, he was invited to stay over. I imagine he slept on the second floor instead of the usual third floor spare room because it may have been hot up on the third floor. I think if Abby had disliked Morse, she would not have gone out of her way to heat him up lunch Wednesday after the family had already eaten and make him comfortable on Wednesday night.
I do agree it is common to see family members squabble over silly things and to stop speaking to each other.
1.Morse had enough money to buy his own farm in Swansea.
2. What is the source for Morse not liking Abby and vice versa? I never saw any testimony to that effect anywhere.
3. Morse was going over to see about some oxen, and also about a hired man he had mentioned to Andrew some time before (I think Andrew was needing one). He ate supper over there, picked up the eggs to bring back to Andrew, and probably because the hour was getting late when he returned, he was invited to stay over. I imagine he slept on the second floor instead of the usual third floor spare room because it may have been hot up on the third floor. I think if Abby had disliked Morse, she would not have gone out of her way to heat him up lunch Wednesday after the family had already eaten and make him comfortable on Wednesday night.
I do agree it is common to see family members squabble over silly things and to stop speaking to each other.
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DJ
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Shelley
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In this prelim testimony, Morse is hoping Andrew will ride over with him. The three, Abby , Andrew and Morse all seem cordial and normal in their conversation. Andrew was taking Garfield Tea, and probably did not wish to be far from the privy under the circumstances.
Q. You said you asked Mr. Borden to go over to Swansea with you?
A. I did.
Q. What did he say when you asked him to go?
A. He said he did not feel able to go.
Q. Did you say anything about waiting for him until the next morning?
A. I told him if he would go the next morning, I would wait for him and go then.
Q. What did he say to that?
A. He said he guessed he would not go on account of taking some medicine; that is all he said about it.
Q. From any talk that you had with Mr. and Mrs. Borden at that time did you understand there was any intention, or had been any intention on their part to go over to their farm in Swansea?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did they say about that?
A. They said they wanted to go, providing they could get Mrs. Vinnecum to go with them. She is a lady that lives over in Swansea.
Q. What did she have to do about it, do you know?
A. She was expecting her sister here from the West; and if she came they could not go.
Q. Is that what Mr. or Mrs. Borden told you?
A. Mrs. Borden told me that.
Q. They were waiting to hear from Mrs. Vinnecum to see whether her sister came from the West or not?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that told you before you went over to Swansea?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then you went over to Swansea and did an errand for Mr. Borden, got some eggs for him?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did he request you to get them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And you saw Mr. Borden’s farmer about some cattle which you had bargained for from Mr. Borden, I understood?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And got home about what time?
A. Somewhere not far from quarter to nine.
Q. Had they been to supper when you returned?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you have any supper at the house?
A. No Sir.
Q. You returned, as I understand you about quarter to nine?
A. I think so.
Q. You went in at the front door?
A. Yes Sir.
Too bad Andrew did not wait and go with Morse on the Thursday- things might have been very different!:
Q. You said you asked Mr. Borden to go over to Swansea with you?
A. I did.
Q. What did he say when you asked him to go?
A. He said he did not feel able to go.
Q. Did you say anything about waiting for him until the next morning?
A. I told him if he would go the next morning, I would wait for him and go then.
Q. What did he say to that?
A. He said he guessed he would not go on account of taking some medicine; that is all he said about it.
Q. From any talk that you had with Mr. and Mrs. Borden at that time did you understand there was any intention, or had been any intention on their part to go over to their farm in Swansea?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did they say about that?
A. They said they wanted to go, providing they could get Mrs. Vinnecum to go with them. She is a lady that lives over in Swansea.
Q. What did she have to do about it, do you know?
A. She was expecting her sister here from the West; and if she came they could not go.
Q. Is that what Mr. or Mrs. Borden told you?
A. Mrs. Borden told me that.
Q. They were waiting to hear from Mrs. Vinnecum to see whether her sister came from the West or not?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that told you before you went over to Swansea?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then you went over to Swansea and did an errand for Mr. Borden, got some eggs for him?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did he request you to get them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And you saw Mr. Borden’s farmer about some cattle which you had bargained for from Mr. Borden, I understood?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And got home about what time?
A. Somewhere not far from quarter to nine.
Q. Had they been to supper when you returned?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you have any supper at the house?
A. No Sir.
Q. You returned, as I understand you about quarter to nine?
A. I think so.
Q. You went in at the front door?
A. Yes Sir.
Too bad Andrew did not wait and go with Morse on the Thursday- things might have been very different!: