Dinner on August 4, 1892, and John V. Morse

[DJ]

Good luck with the walking tour, Shelley.
I don't doubt Morse's word as to that, particularly as Mrs. Emery corroborates the times fairly close to what he says. I don't believe she's covering for him, either, because she diverges with him on what he says about dinner at the Bordens' and going straight back to New Bedford.
Which is one of the reasons for this topic.
Also, that Morse's testimony as to what he did upon his return to the Bordens' does not corroborate with Mr. Sawyer's, and others.
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What I'd really like to know is exactly when Morse arrived back at the Bordens' (it would be difficult to nail down the time of the streetcar ride), and when he enters the house. Exactly how much time elapsed between arrival and entrance. When did Sawyer sweep the crowd from the side to the front? Was Morse already there? If it could be proven that he was, then he's lying through his teeth.
Do you see why I keep hammering at this, and the other discrepancies in his testimony?
How long did he *actually* spend in the yard, not according to just what *he says*, but as corroborated by other witnesses who were present.
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Of course, there's a problem with timepieces, as you say, the confusion of the scene, and people making guesstimates, based on hindsight.
It's unnerving to, say, have Mrs. Kelly see Mr. Borden at the front upon his return the morning of the murders, and then for her not to be able to fix a time, because her clock is broken.
*************************************************************

[Shelley]

"What I'd really like to know is exactly when Morse arrived back at the Bordens' (it would be difficult to nail down the time of the streetcar ride), and when he enters the house.
That is, how long did he *actually* spend in the yard, not according to just what *he says*, but as corroborated by other witnesses who were present."

The pears must have been small ones- like a seckel pear. The streetcars must have had a schedule, and I believe Morse says he got off and arrived at the house sometime around 11:45, expecting to have lunch pretty soon. Of course the street car may have stopped a couple of times to let people off or pick up others. It would not take long at all to walk up from the foot of old Second Street to the Borden house, maybe 3 minutes. If Mrs. Emery said John left about 11:30 or just shortly before, John walked a short distance, caught the car back and walked up the hill and into the back yard , doing all of this in about 15-20 minutes- which sounds just about right. By 11:45 the police were on the scene and had shooed people out of the side and back yards onto the front pavement. When John says he was not particularly noticing of anything strange out front, I believe that because it was lunchtime on a very busy street, there was a market about 2 doors down, a depot, etc. And the streets were very different then than now- shadier with trees, and lined with fences. Visibility around the house today is very high with all of this now gone.
I think Sawyer had stepped into the kitchen and was not right out on the stoop. If he had been, I am sure John would have seen him. Even if he had seen him- he may have assumed he might be a client of Andrew's as all of them had to call at the house to do business. Sawyer was not a policeman- he had on just civilian clothing. Also, notice the next time you are out walking somewhere with a purpose, where do you focus? - I notice I tend to look at the ground in front or what is directly in front of me when I am headed to a destination for a particular arrival time. When you are out just strolling alone-no particular place to be, not on anybody's clock- you tend to notice other things around you more.

[DJ]

Yes, it could have happened that way, but there are important, inexact variables, such as the precise time he left the Emerys', how long he had to wait for the car, and how many got on or off, as you say.
I never rode on a horse-drawn streetcar, but I rode the electric ones in New Orleans many times, and forward motion is entirely dependent on the number of stops, and the on's/off's at each stop. If someone is fumbling around getting on or off, there are expected delays.
Unfortunately, there is no way to put an exact time on the length of Morse's streetcar ride, even if a schedule is produced. They, too, can be off by quite a few minutes, as anyone who takes modern public transport knows.
Morse's story isn't way off, but he could have returned before the crowd dispersed at the side of the house.
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Again, if he's absolutely on the up-and-up, and he does return after 11:45, and dinner is at noon sharp: Why does he eat even one pear?
Why doesn't he go in, wash up, and, if dinner is late or his blood sugar is that low, say, "May I have a piece of fruit from the dining-room table, or from the tree outside?"
I will defend Morse's manners to the point where, if he didn't have decent ones, he would not have been asked to dine at many places.
************************************************************
Again and also, the streetcar ride is out of character for someone so close with money. He is not running late for dinner. He has evidently been pretty much in repose at the Emerys'. He was able to walk there in the first place, so he is not injured.
************************************************************* When people do things that is out of character for them, "why" is a reasonable question.

[Shelley]

Oh, I quite agree that when one acts out of character, it is important. The thing is we do not KNOW enough of John Morse's character to make large assumptions of what and what not he would or would not do as a rule. I eat a cookie before dinner. Why? Because I want to-maybe spoils the appetite and I know better, but there it is. John eats a pear- probably 2-3 small pears. Why? Maybe he knows there will be mutton -again. Maybe he is thirsty- pears are juicy. Maybe he just loves pears- I know people who do. None of them are killers.

He doesn't go right in and wash up because someone has to let him in. As in ALL of his arrivals and departures- somebody lets him inside the house. He does not charge in on his own as a resident of the house might do. This is Abby Borden's home- not Sarah Morse Borden's home. The more important issue is- maybe we would have expected him to KNOCK at the door and expect Bridget to have let him in. Then he could wash up for lunch. Thing is- are you going to hang a man because he goes into the yard and has a piece of fruit and doesn't knock on the door to come in because we think he ought to have done that? It proves nothing except maybe he was hungry. It does not tarnish him as accessory to a murder, conspirator with Lizzie, a homicidal maniac or anything else. Maybe he decided to take a tinkle behind the barn for all we know.

How do we know he never rode streetcars as a rule? We do not. How much was a streetcar ride? If I wanted to be somewhere on time and had overstayed myself visiting, I would have opted for the nickel or dime to get back on time too. Maybe he was tired and it had gotten warmer and he didn't want to walk back. The day before Abby was good enough to scramble John up some lunch after they had finished and cleaned up. Maybe he did not want to put her to trouble again by not being prompt. The case must fit the facts, the facts (opinions, suppositions, impressions), can't be forced into making a case- most especially 116 years later about people we have never met. Even newspaper material on these people is highly suspect, frequently inaccurate, and should not be taken as undisputed fact.

Oh, I love a rousing debate-yes indeed. We are handicapped here in not having undisputed facts to hand and only testimonies as reference-, and so we rely on gut instincts, personal prejudices, modern-day behaviors, and contemporary mindsets on certain behaviors- which can lead down a pathway of unfruitful and irrelevant speculation.

[nbcatlover]

I've been out of touch with the forum for almost a month and have just been reading through this topic.

When Morse says he didn't know his nience and nephew were there at the Emerys, I don't believe he was saying that he didn't know they had come East. I believe he picked his niece up in Warren where they had other relatives.

Years ago, when people came from a distance for an extended visit, they frequently did not have relatives who could afford to extend hospitality and free meals for an extended period of time.

They may have stayed with Uncle Charles in Warren for several days or a week, and then gone to stay at Morse's sisters house for a few days, etc. I believe what Morse was saying was that he had not had time to visit with his niece and nephew in terms of catching up with family info, etc. from the West and he did not know which relatives they were staying with at the current time, namely the Emerys.

I found it interesting to note that the farm might have been deeded to Abbie, and that Andrew was thinking about donating land for a Ladies Home. Do you think Abbie was going to be pensioned off to the farm in Swansea when Andrew died, and the girls would have gotten the house in Fall River. Were all the trips to Swansea with Emma, Miss Davis, and I believe separately, Annie Morse to get their feedback as to the appropriateness of a Ladies Home location since they were the type of single ladies who would probably stay there?

[Allen]

I'm not sure that Morse, Emma, and Miss Davis went to Swansea together. All I found mentioned is the testimony I previously posted that they "went to ride, we went down to the steamboat." And that he brought Emma home after dark.

Reading through testimony you can find several instances of Morse's tendency to not really plan things too far ahead. This is one more brief example.

Inquest testimony John V. Morse page 95:

Q. Is your last residence in the West?
A. Yes, my property is there.

Q. Did you come here with the intention of staying here?
A. I rented my farm for one year. I did not know how long I might stay. I calculated to stay, then I rented it for another year.

[Yooper]

To me, Morse behaved very much like a man who expected to return to the Borden house for lunch, and not much other than that. To assume his involvement in a conspiracy to commit the murders presumes that the murders could be planned to happen in the way they did. He would have to know that both Andrew and Abby would be dead before his return if he was trying to establish an alibi and avoid involvement. How could anyone predict an opportunity to kill Andrew that day?

Perhaps a better question is, why return at all? Why not simply visit the relatives to establish an alibi and go straight home?

[SallyG]

I doubt the murders were a well planned out thing...I think Lizzie seized on an opportunity to kill Abby, then decided she had to finish off Andrew as well.

There was a case here in Maryland about a week or two ago that struck me as being similar to the Borden murders. A young man, I believe he was about 16 or so (wish I could locate the news story), had basically been verbally abused by his mother for a long time and one day finally snapped and took a baseball bat to her.

He moved her body outside to the shed/garage, and later that night when his father came home and laid down on the couch to sleep, he attemped to kill him with the baseball bat, too.

Fortunately, his father overpowered him and was able to call the police.

This was not a planned out murder...the boy just snapped one day. I think Lizzie did plan to murder at least Abby..but I think taking the ax or whatever she used was done because the opportunity presented itself that morning and she took it. I think she probably did want to poison her...it was a neat and efficient way to rid herself of Abby, but it didn't work out as planned.

I think after she murdered Abby, she realized she really had to do in Andrew as well because it would be obvious to him who murdered Abby.

I don't think John Morse played any role at all in the whole thing. He may have actually been a fly in the ointment to Lizzie, who previously had had the house to herself once Emma was gone.

[Angel]

I don't think Uncle John knew there was going to be a murder that day, but I think he may have found out some way (telephone perhaps) before he got home that something had happened. He knew of whatever dysfunctional activity that was going on in the family and knew Lizzie did it. So he made sure before he got there (remembering numbers on caps, no. of priests on streetcar, etc.) that he would be able to cover himself in case anyone started questioning him. I've been to the house and have seen how it sits on the road, so I don't think there's any way he could not have noticed a bevy of people milling about in front. I think he deliberately went to the back yard to have time to size up the situation before he went inside. He prepared himself because he knew things were going to get crazy.

[SallyG]

How much foot traffic would there be on a normal day.

My office is downtown in a small town and when I have to go across the street to the bank, etc, I look up and down the streeet and see 4 or 5 people walking along on any given day. 130 years ago, the street would have been swarming with people and activity. All you have to do is look at a photo of the 1880's to see the difference. If I walked out my front door now and saw that many people, I would definitely think SOMETHING was wrong. Back then, it would have been normal.

Perhaps the number of people John saw seemed normal to him in that year, month, and time of day.

Or ... maybe he knew there had been some trouble lately in the household, and feared things may have come to a head. Maybe he was just putting off facing the bad news.

[Angel]

There would be something noticeably different between people walking up and down the street on a busy day, and a group of agitated people all looking towards the front door of a house and talking excitedly.

[DJ]

Bottom line is, Morse knew about (some of) Mr. Borden's plans for a new will.
Emma testifies Morse had spoken to her about the previous will.
Morse has some mighty powerful information at his disposal, some that could have easily thrown Lizzie and/or Emma into a (murderous) rage.
He is therefore not to be disregarded lightly.
Also, *any person* who was at the murder scene the night before, during the night, the morning of/prior to, the morning of/shortly thereafter comes under suspicion and ought to be examined carefully, particularly because of his close ties to both the deceased as well as those who benefit most from the deaths of those murdered.
He wasn't on the scene when the crimes were committed, but he could have well set them into motion, however innocuously in his own mind, and then found himself an unwitting part of the plot.
The indisputable fact is, from his own testimony, he had incendiary information.
He had passed on similar information before, for whatever reason. That's a fact.
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Yes, he should have knocked at the screen door, especially since he passed right by it, upon his return. It makes no sense, if one is hungry or thirsty, not to take the path of least resistance.
Morse is up early that morning, comes downstairs, waits patiently for the household to stir and breakfast to be prepared. He doesn't go outside and eat pears then. He has manners, as demonstrated. For some seemingly inexplicable reason, he fails to show them at dinnertime.

[Allen]

I am really not seeing why eating a pea before dinner is considered such bad manners? Or even so suspicious? It isn't as though Abby or Andrew, if alive, would've been aware of it unless they were standing at the window watching him sidle up to the side door pear in hand. Even if they had I don't think they would've thought of it as such a socially offensive lack of manners. If he had forgone dinner in preference to eating pears and had sat at the table happily munching away while the Borden's dined on their mutton, that might have raised a few eyebrows. Nibbling on a pear before the noon meal does not, to me, shout that he is in possession of any knowledge of a double homicide.

[Allen]

How much foot traffic would there be on a normal day.

My office is downtown in a small town and when I have to go across the street to the bank, etc, I look up and down the streeet and see 4 or 5 people walking along on any given day. 130 years ago, the street would have been swarming with people and activity. All you have to do is look at a photo of the 1880's to see the difference. If I walked out my front door now and saw that many people, I would definitely think SOMETHING was wrong. Back then, it would have been normal.

Perhaps the number of people John saw seemed normal to him in that year, month, and time of day.

I tend to agree with this assessment. There were many businesses nearby, the stables being one of them. How many of the witnesses were out walking that day going on errands of their own? How many people testified that they were basically just hanging around on that day, in full view of the Borden house?

[Yooper]

Bottom line is, Morse knew about (some of) Mr. Borden's plans for a new will.
Emma testifies Morse had spoken to her about the previous will.
Morse has some mighty powerful information at his disposal, some that could have easily thrown Lizzie and/or Emma into a (murderous) rage.
He is therefore not to be disregarded lightly.
Also, *any person* who was at the murder scene the night before, during the night, the morning of/prior to, the morning of/shortly thereafter comes under suspicion and ought to be examined carefully, particularly because of his close ties to both the deceased as well as those who benefit most from the deaths of those murdered.
He wasn't on the scene when the crimes were committed, but he could have well set them into motion, however innocuously in his own mind, and then found himself an unwitting part of the plot.
The indisputable fact is, from his own testimony, he had incendiary information.
He had passed on similar information before, for whatever reason. That's a fact.
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Yes, he should have knocked at the screen door, especially since he passed right by it, upon his return. It makes no sense, if one is hungry or thirsty, not to take the path of least resistance.
Morse is up early that morning, comes downstairs, waits patiently for the household to stir and breakfast to be prepared. He doesn't go outside and eat pears then. He has manners, as demonstrated. For some seemingly inexplicable reason, he fails to show them at dinnertime.

To involve Morse in a conspiracy, he would have to know with certainty that information about plans for a will would cause the deaths of Andrew and Abby. That's really reaching. Having told Emma about a previous will does not indicate he would tell her about any current plans, it only implies that he might.

Morse may have had close ties to Emma, but I get the idea that he and Lizzie were not particularly close. I don't understand how John Morse would benefit from the murders of Andrew and Abby Borden.

Passing information to Emma, which is subsequently passed to Lizzie, which causes Lizzie to react and behave in a certain way does not make Morse guilty of anything besides passing information. He was not responsible for either Emma's or Lizzie's actions. The information was incendiary only given the proper conditions and reactions to the information. Anywhere else in the universe, it would have been the intimation to a niece that her father had spoken to him about making a new will, and nothing more. There is no evidence which suggests that the conversation took place between Morse and either Lizzie or Emma.

Morse was the primary suspect originally, and I imagine he was questioned by the authorities at length before he was dismissed as a suspect.

The real bottom line is that there is no evidence suggesting Morse's involvement in the Borden murders to any extent whatever.

[Shelley]

If you have a good look at Rebello's map of what was on the street in 1892 you also see Wade's market one door over from the Kelly house, the Boston Express across the street, a boarding house (Mrs. Churchill's next door), a livery stable diagonally, Bowen's house and office, Kelly's house and office, and other small businesses on that street- at lunchtime! There would be extra people on the street at his time. No uniformed policeman was at the gate or side door of #92- there was a fence all the way across the front of most of the houses, two large shade trees in front of #92, and a rise coming up from the bottom of old Second Street which does not immediately give a full view of the front of #92.
I traced this route early this morning, beginning from where John got off the horse car, and I must say, I can easily see (considering the grade of the street and sight lines) he would not have been able to observe anything in particular out of the ordinary in the front of #92 until he got to about the point of Mr. Sawyer's house coming up that rise. You can see the gentle hill in this slide show. Of course we assume he was coming up the east side of Second Street. http://www.slide.com/r/2eyMf7Oy4z_oFoiD ... bedded_url
It was so humid this morning, my "Uncle John" did not make the trip to Weybosset St. as planned- so, that will wait until next Saturday morning. I did however, check on Mrs. Churchill's trip to Hudner's Market, and her timing checks out with her testimony and her viewing of Bridget's actions.

[Allen]

I was mulling a few things over about the case last night, and something else that has been stated through out this thread kept coming back up for me. The fact that John Morse hired a team or rode a horse car is cited as odd or out of character. If he did not possess a horse and carriage of his own, he would have to if he wanted to travel any distance. Not just from Fall River, but New Bedford, and all of the other places he spent time. And it seems like Morse was a man who liked to travel around. I'm betting he employed those type of services a lot.

What occurred to me last night is the fact that John Morse is described as tight fisted enough with his money that hiring a team to go to the farm is out of character. That he possibly should have owned equipment of his own for such purposes. If we go by the assessment in this argument, that a tight fisted man wouldn't part lightly with money to hire a team, and should probably have owned his own rig, we should look at the similar actions of Mr. Borden. Andrew actually sold his horse not long before the murders. And from Bridget's testimony we can show there had been someone there to at least look at the carriage as well. Andrew sold his transportation to and from his own properties in Swansea. Which would in all likelihood leave him no choice but to hire a team himself if he wanted to travel there. And by all accounts we know he was close with his money.

[Shelley]

Good point. As I understand it, any household in the city, having less than 5 horses would have to pay a city tax for a single horse and carriage would be similar to property taxes we pay on our car today. A larger number of livestock made one eligible for a "farm" status break. Yes, I kept two horses for many years and the vet, blacksmith, hay, food, and such cost the earth. I expect that Andrew could and did walk to most of his holdings which is why he had the house on Second Street, and had hired men to handle the farms. He only needed a "rig" from time to time to go to Swansea to check on things-and his girls could take the horse car!
Much cheaper in the long run- not to mention not having to muck out stalls!

[Yooper]

Would living on "the hill" prevent Andrew from walking to his holdings? If that put the family far enough away from the downtown area, especially with Andrew approaching seventy years of age, the walk might have become taxing. What I'm getting at is, perhaps the sale of the horse indicated that they wouldn't be moving from Second Street anytime soon, in spite of Lizzie and Emma's wishes.

[Shelley]

Well, getting up and down some of the streets on the Hill can be a bit much. But going down Rock Street is a pretty comfortable straight shot , as well as going down North Main to South Main, where Andrew had his empire. I doubt it would have been a consideration in Andrew's mind. I think his house on Second Street suited him to a T- and he could not imagine needing more space, -he was not exactly entertaining much. I expect he would have lived on comfortably at #92 until his last hours.

[Kat]

It was asked *when Morse arrived?* and about a *crowd.*
Mr. Morse's timeline from the Prelim., at:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... yMorse.htm

When Morse left, "I looked at my watch," it was. . . "within a few minutes of it (8:45). (pg. 243).

"I came down to the post office". . . with a card to "I think William Vinnecum" of Swansea. (pg. 243).

". . . then went from there out to the north door, and went up (walked) Third St.; from there to Pleasant St., up Pleasant St. to Weybosset St., No. 4 to Daniel Emery's." . . . "a good mile," eastward, to see "a niece and a nephew from the west; my brother's children." (pg. 243, 244).

11:20 a.m.

Morse started to come away from there "I think about 20 minutes past eleven." (pg. 243).

Morse fixed the time by looking "at my watch about going back to dinner." (pg. 244).

The usual dinner hour at the Borden's was "About 12 o'clock."

Morse came back "on the car". . . that comes down Pleasant St.

"I got off the corner of Pleasant and Second Streets". . . went right up home. (pg. 244).

11:45 a.m.

Got home "about quarter to 12; I do not know exactly." Did not look at watch. (pg. 244, 245).

Noticed ". . . Nothing that attracted my attention. . . I did not notice anything about the place." (pg. 244).

". . . might have been a few men along, the same as generally. I did not see anything unusual about it." (pg. 253).

Came "Into the north small gate. . . I went around to the pear tree"-(didn't see anybody in the entry way by the screen door)-stayed out under the pear tree "two or three minutes." (pg. 253).

11:48 a.m.

First learned what happened "at the door," by way of "I think the servant girl." (pg. 244).

Mr. Sawyer was inside the house.

"The first man I saw in there was Dr. Bowen," and "I think two policemen." (pg. 244).

~ ~ ~ ~
Then we check Sawyer:
Inquest
Sawyer
Q. Were you there when Morse returned?
A. I was there when Morse returned, I suppose the time he returned; whether he had been there before, I dont know.
Q. Where did you first see him?
A. He came towards me from the gate. I stood on the steps at that time, standing outside of the door and holding the door outside. He came along to the steps, and he says “for Gods sake what has happened here”? I looked at him, I had not seen him, he was a stranger to me, I told him Mr. and Mrs. Borden have been murdered, been killed, something to that effect. “My God”, he says, “and I left Mr. Borden right at this door, and he told me to come back to dinner.”
Q. How long was that after you got there, as far as you can estimate time?
A. I should judge somewhere in the neighborhood of very near twelve o’clock, or a little after; of either way, I should say a little after.
Q. Where did you see him first?
A.. Coming [from] towards the gate, along the walk; whether he had come through the gate or not, I dont know.
Q. Was anybody with you at the time?
A. I am not sure about that, I dont think that there was, unless the servant girl might have been inside the door, or somebody inside the door at that time. The servant girl would go out and in there through that entry sometimes, when I was outside.

139 (46)

Q. Was there much of a crowd there at that time?
A. At that time there was quite a little crowd there.
Q. In the house, or out in the street?
A. They had been driven out of the yard by an officer there in attendance.
Q. The officers were there then?
A. Yes, when he came.
Q. Were the people in the street?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Many?
A. Well, yes sir I should say there was. My view was limited, not more than the width of the yard, but the fences appeared to be pretty well filled up; and previous to that, there had been quite a crowd in the yard.
Q. Did you notice whether Mr. Morse was eating a pear or not, or eating anything?
A. No Sir he was not when he spoke to me, at that time.
Q. What did he do when you told him?
A. “My God”, he says, “what kind of a God have we got that will permit a deed like this to be done?” Something like that.
Q. What did he do then?
A. He stood there a few minutes, and finally went inside of the door.
Q. Whether he had been in before or not, you dont know?
A. No Sir, he had not been in at that door before; that was the first time I had seen him.
Q. You had been near the door all the time?
A. Yes Sir, from the time I went there with Officer Allen, I should judge that might have been a little after eleven.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

They didn't even ask about his first sight of Morse at the trial, that I could find.

[Kat]

About Mrs. Dr. Kelly's clock:

Prelim
Q. Did you speak to him?
A. No Sir. I looked up to speak, but he did not see me.
Q. What time was that?
A. I think about 27 or 28 minutes to eleven.
Q. How do you fix the time, Mrs. Kelley?
A. I was due at the dentist’s at half past nine, and I looked at
Page 210

the clock, and I saw I was about an hour late, before I started.
Q. At half past nine you were due at the dentist’s, and you were an hour late before you started?
A. Yes Sir, as near as I can fix, it was about 27 minutes of eleven.
Q. You went to the dentist’s?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where is the dentist you went to?
A. Corner of Borden and Main streets.
Q. Do you now remember what time it was when you got there?
A. No Sir.
Q. You did not take any notice of that time?
A. No Sir.
. . . .

Q. How do you know you were about an hour late?

Page 211

A. Because I looked at the clock. I was detained by this nurse; and I went and looked at the clock before I left the house.
Q. What time was it when you looked at the clock?
A. Between half past ten and 25 minutes of eleven.
Q. That was just before you left the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that the clock in your house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know how that clock compares with the City Hall time?
A. No Sir, I do not. We consider it is about right; we consider it keeps pretty good time. I do not know how it compared that morning. If it was anything, it was a little fast.
______

[Next that clock at the trial]

Trial
Mrs. Dr. Kelly's clock:
Q. To the dentist's?
A. To a dentist's.

Q. Did you start and go down town?
A. Yes.

Page 212

Q. Did you consult any time piece before you started?
A. Yes.

Q. What time piece was it?
A. Kitchen clock.

Q. After you consulted the kitchen clock, did you remain about the house any before you went out?
A. No, I went right out.

Q. You went directly out?
A. Yes.

Q. And from your yard did you go out into the street into Second street?
A. Yes.

Q. Now what time did your kitchen clock show?
A. About twenty eight minutes of eleven.

Q. What sort of a clock was that?
A. An old fashioned clock.

Q. Wooden clock?
A. Square, wooden clock with weights.

Q. How long had you had it?
A. It has been in the family for years; I have only had it for two years in my house.

Q. At that time in August of last year, what sort of time-keeper was it?
A. Not a good one.

Q. Was it a time keeper you could depend upon for accurate time?
A. No, sir.

Q. Since then has anything happened to that clock?
A. It does not run at all; it is broken.

MR. ROBINSON I do not see how that is material.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~

--Once that clock was *broken* no one could then check her timing against the City Hall clock. Weird.

[Kat]

Mrs. Emery was not called to the Preliminary or Trial.
I don't know why. I guess they didn't think they needed any more info on oath about Morse's whereabouts.
Basically they are each other's alibi, technically.

[Kat]

In catching up on this topic, I seem to notice an emphasis on when Morse returned. (The topic title, no less).
I've been suspicious of when Morse left, and the time he took to go to Weybosset. There's no witness to that except Bridget, that we know of, on oath- who was left alive to answer.

[Kat]

I'm also trying to imagine what Lydia Emery and John Morse talked about during that visit!

[Kat]

Also, Morse might have returned simply because he had a hint of tensions and wanted to know what was going on in the household.
He didn't seem very solicitous or helpful towards Lizzie that day, after the bodies were found, that we know of- he pretty much says he stayed in the yard for hours. Maybe he was listening to the scuttlebutt?
I might have expected him, as uncle, to be in charge at the house and to agitate for Lizzie's rights to be left alone (like Harrington offered). We don't know even if he was useful in picking up Emma at the train!

[Shelley]

Andrew Jennings picked Emma up with her traveling bags at the depot. Morse would not have had a carriage unless he rented one.

[DJ]

Kat,
I'm glad you posted Sawyer's inquest testimony, because I was about to quote what he said about people being lined up along the fences.
There's no way Morse could have missed that, from whatever direction he came in the front, or even if he was doubling back from the pear tree to the side door. Sawyer's testimony is specific and trustworthy, as he was standing at the door, where he had been asked specifically to observe the crowd, and he could see them clearly along the fence that bordered the side yard from his vantage point, at the time he sees Morse approaching (curiously, from the front, not the pear tree, as Morse testifies.)
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If Morse suspicions something has happened, owing to tensions in the household-- and, he desires no part of it-- why is he lingering in Fall River? Why stick around that morning and try to visit the Emerys and his niece and nephew? Why not come back for that? Why not just get the heck out of Dodge? He could always have come down at some future time or date, to help his nieces, if they required him. And/or to attend the funerals.
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If Morse is not involved, beyond having suspicions or fears that something could happen, and that very morning even, then:
Why doesn't he warn Mr. Borden? Mrs. Borden? Or, better yet, hang around the house and watch Miss Lizzie Borden? Talk her out of it, if he fears she's on the verge of committing murder?

[Shelley]

Morse: Noticed ". . . Nothing that attracted my attention. . . I did not notice anything about the place." (pg. 244).

". . . might have been a few men along, the same as generally. I did not see anything unusual about it." (pg. 253).

This confirms to me what we have already mentioned before, namely that this was a high traffic area of businesses and offices and generally there was plenty of foot traffic and horse traffic, especially in the lunch hour.

Q. Was there much of a crowd there at that time?
A. At that time there was quite a little crowd there.

Q. In the house, or out in the street?
A. They had been driven out of the yard by an officer there in attendance.
Q. The officers were there then?
A. Yes, when he came.
Q. Were the people in the street?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Many?
A. Well, yes sir I should say there was. My view was limited, not more than the width of the yard, but the fences appeared to be pretty well filled up; and previous to that, there had been quite a crowd in the yard.

This is pretty subjective as to Sawyer's idea of what number it was and he changes his testimony about when he was at his post and when he was in the back hall and kitchen. If he had stayed at the side door, his view of the street would have consisted of the narrow strip of driveway between the Borden house and the Churchill house. You cannot see either of the front fences from there at all; possibly the southwesternmost corner of the Churchill house fence. Sawyer would have to have walked down the steps to the end of the driveway to make this sort of observation. Morse, when he returned to the gate no doubt finally realized that there was something amiss and overheard some of the conversation going on - his reaction and what he says to Sawyer, who has now returned to the side entry sounds pretty typical to me. The uniformed officers had driven the people who had sneaked into the yard outside the fence into the street, and may have turned their attentions then to what was going on inside the house. Morse does not mentioned seeing any uniformed policeman when he returned- I am sure that would have gotten his attention.

[Shelley]

1892 limited visibility between the two house

A Sawyer 1892 POV from the side steps-no visibility of the front from the stairs. and very little of the street at all, over the gate in the driveway



Today's increased visibility minus trees, gate, fence and the Churchill house and also the barn pushed back an additional 10 feet

[Kat]

Wow, posting in bold about made my eyes crossed!

You know, I got reprimanded by a member here for putting up that same photo as to the bad view from the street to the house because of that tree in leaf, in the past.
I was trying to show Hyman Lubinsky's bad view in his ice cream wagon. As far as I can say, if that view was in August and that tree was in leaf and there was that shadowing, that was the ice cream man's view. (But in color, of course.)

I will never understand Morse when it comes to his return to the house and the crowd.

I'm impishly suggesting now that *eating a pear* is a Borden/Morse euphemism for taking a pee in the back of the barn.

[Shelley]

Yes- I think I mentioned a tinkle behind the barn a few pages ago! Well, why not? No worse an euphemism than "Having Fleas". As far as Lubinsky, I at one time gave him a lot of credit as a reliable witness, until you read how muddled he got about the TIME he saw a woman in the yard, and how narrow that tiny strip of visibility would be over the fence. I also wonder if he was remembering the day correctly- when you habitually do an action-day after day- it is easy to mix up which day it was. I am no longer as certain about him and the importance of his testimony.

[DJ]

I'm wondering whether Mrs. Borden could have mentioned to Morse that she thought she had been poisoned (something aside from spoiled-food poisoning).
Problems with Lizzie?
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Of course, Morse would be the sole source to verify/disclaim those issues, and he's "on good terms" with Lizzie, even though she allegedly won't appear when he visits, at least during the past three months; she won't make an exception and take a meal with him and her parents; and she's never written him. Also, allegedly.
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If "eating is a pear" is a euphemism for urination, I'd hate to think he was still "eating a pear" when he entered the house, as he claims.
Thank goodness Sawyer said Morse wasn't.
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If Morse is entering the side yard after it has been cleared, as Sawyer claims, then he must pass the people who are up against the fence, staring at the house.

[Allen]

Morse isn't the only one who claims to have eaten pears from the back yard. Those pears sure were popular that day. Lizzie also claims to have picked some up on the way to the barn, which she stood munching at the window. I'm wondering why Lizzie would take pears from the yard when there was a basket of them on the table that morning. Andrew had picked some up from the yard and brought them in and left them on the table according to Bridget's testimony. The table Lizzie claims to have been sitting at reading a magazine. Why pass up the basket for the loose ones in the yard?

It could've been a euphemism but why wouldn't he have just used the facilities in the barn? It would ensure more privacy. If he really wasn't aware anything was amiss, Bridget could still have been outside or in the barn as she worked on her windows.

[Shelley]

I was kidding about the tinkle behind the barn- and I am pretty sure Kat was too. Well, I am satisfied with Morse's testimony and the scenario. I expect if 50 men were pressed up against the fence, eyeballs rolling, crying MURDER MURDER under their breath when John came up the street and went into the gate, then maybe I would think something was wrong with John for not noticing or he was part of some sinister coverup plot.

He says when he came up the street and went through the gate on the side yard, nothing was noticeably outstanding to him where as he would notice red flags raised and alarming, unexpected ructions before his very eyes out in the street. I won't repeat the quote from the preliminary again.

When Sawyer says people were evacuated from the yard and made to go out in the street- we do not get the time this occurred. How he knew there were people leaning against the front fence is also a mystery unless he heard somebody say so or went out front to look himself, thereby leaving his post. Were the people against the fence when John first came home? Were they against the fence after he came out from the back yard and went up to the front of the driveway by the gate? I think it can be unproductive in the end, to take one person's statement as absolute Gospel fact of how things unfolded minute by minute. Sawyer was not at the side door outside on that stair platform the whole time uninterrupted. He admits he went inside in the back hall and in the kitchen. If I were Sawyer I would be all agog and looking and listening inside that house for all I was worth!

The very fact that Morse admits to not noticing anything other than what was "generally" the case on the street tells me that he was not suspicious that something sinister was going to happen and did not approach the house with eyes peeled for nefarious evil-doings. He was probably like most people, looking at the ground as he climbed that little sloping hill up to the house, lost in his own thoughts. I could not tell you if my life depended on it what was in front of my house when I came home today-all I can say is that there was nothing that looked particularly different than yesterday to the casual eye which was primarily trained on my driveway. I went into my backyard to pick some roses before I went in the house too- not as good as the pear story though- and there were no dead bodies on the sofa either.

[Harry]

I, too, feel that there were many people on Second Street that morning. IMO, that was its normal state at that time of day. Now we drive but people walked in those days. I recently put a video up on YouTube of street scenes in Belfast in 1901. The number of people walking on the streets is remarkable. In a recent Hatchet I listed all the entries in the 1892 City Directory for people living or working on Second Street. It was at best only a partial list as the Directories do not include everyone but it was a lengthy list. Add that Second Street is but one short block away from the heart of the city, and the odds would certainly favor crowds gathering fairly quickly.

However there is this:

Morse said he arrived back at the Borden house at 11:45. I looked at the Witness statements and found this entry on page 19:

"Alexander H. Coggeshall No. 143 Second street. “Was on Second street opposite the Borden house at 11.45 saw no suspicious person around.”

Odd that he makes no mention of a crowd in front of 92 Second.

[Allen]

I think it can be unproductive in the end, to take one person's statement as absolute Gospel fact of how things unfolded minute by minute. Sawyer was not at the side door outside on that stair platform the whole time uninterrupted. He admits he went inside in the back hall and in the kitchen. If I were Sawyer I would be all agog and looking and listening inside that house for all I was worth!

I agree Shelley. If Sawyer had stood at the back door and made no efforts to learn what was going on in the house from time to time I'd find that pretty amazing. Even Mr. Pettee, the previous tenant at 92 Second, got in to see the bodies when he really had no business being there. I also agree with you on not taking one persons word as Gospel. I think the best thing to do is look at all the statements given and see how they mesh. Then take into account things like you had pointed out, that Sawyer was not a constant presence at the door.

[Kat]

Yes Sawyer even went upstairs to see Abbie's body but I can't figure out when.

Question: where do we know Jennings picked up Emma at the train? Is that in Emma's statements or in the newspaper, maybe?
(It doesn't preclude Morse going along, tho. He strikes me as a guy-on-the-go. Ants-in-his-pants kind of guy...)

[Shelley]

The fact of Andrew Jennings going to the station for Emma is in the newspaper and Len says it is in his book somewhere. Makes sense- he no doubt, like Dr. Bowen, had a carriage handy and what better person to make Emma aware of the situation at home. Jennings may even have foreseen the possibility that Lizzie could in the future need legal counsel-there would at the least be the inquest to get through.

[Tina-Kate]

Correct me if I'm wrong---I thought Emma testified (Prelim or Trial) that she "called for" Andrew Jennings.

[Harry]

T-K, right you are. It's on page 107 of the Inquest:

"Q. What time did you get back?
A. I came on the train that left New Bedford 3.40.
Q. You came right to the house. You went up to Weir Junction and came down. Who sent for Mr. Jennings?
A. I think I did. I know I did."

I'll have to do a newspaper search to see what I can find.

[Tina-Kate]

Thanks, Har!

[FairhavenGuy]

Hey, Kat, I think one of my very first posts back on the old Arborwood forum was to reprimand you for posting that shadowy picture as evidence that Lubinsky couldn't have seen anyone in the yard. . .

My point then still stands. That's a very contrasty B&W photo and the view into the shadows in real life, and in color, would not be nearly as dark as it looks in that photo.

Besides, with sun shining on the front of the house, that's an afternoon photo and Lubinsky would have been looking into the yard earlier in the day when the shadows were different.

Anyway, none of that has any bearing on Shelley's posting it to show the width of the side yard and the limited view Sawyer had from the porch.

So, in my opinion, the photo can be used to prove Shelley's point that Sawyer had a limited view of the street looking out from the back steps, but it doesn't prove your point that Lubinsky would have had a bad view into the side yard from the street.

[DJ]

According to John Fleet's police report:
John Morse said:
"Saw a number of persons around the house, and was told that Mr. and Mrs. Borden was killed. That was the first I knew of their deaths."
This material is quoted in the police report, given the afternoon of the murders, when the incident would have been freshest in Morse's mind.

[Allen]

The statement is rather vague about when or where he saw this "number of persons". I'd hazard to say that the "number of persons" could've been Mrs. Churchill, Charles Sawyer, Dr. Bowen, Miss Russell, etc.

[Allen]

Wow, posting in bold about made my eyes crossed!

You know, I got reprimanded by a member here for putting up that same photo as to the bad view from the street to the house because of that tree in leaf, in the past.
I was trying to show Hyman Lubinsky's bad view in his ice cream wagon. As far as I can say, if that view was in August and that tree was in leaf and there was that shadowing, that was the ice cream man's view. (But in color, of course.)

If you look at the reverse view, from the yard out to that same tree and into the street, you don't see that. I would think if it was actually that shadowy this picture would not have turned out as bright and well lit.

[DJ]

The police report doesn't read that he saw the people inside the house, but around the house, when he arrived. As in, outdoors. Someone out there told him the Bordens were dead. It's quoting him, too.

[DJ]

Another thing about the police report and its quoting of Morse-- it's highly detailed and accurate, at least according to what Morse says later.
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Also, another point of interest: According to Dr. Bowen, when he returns from telegraphing Emma with news of Mr. Borden's death:
He pulls up in the side yard, as I understand it, down the drive along the side. He instructs the boy (his assistant) to stay at the carriage.
If that carriage and "the boy" are in the side yard, and Morse did go to the pear tree in back, I don't see how he could have passed the boy and not received news of Mr. Borden's death, at least, then and there.

[Allen]

You are positive in your mind that Morse is guilty of something, whether he actually helped plot the murders, or just wanted Andrew dead so he fed Lizzie information supposedly with the knowledge it would make her kill him. You are specifically looking for information which might support Morse's guilt or guilty knowledge. When I read the same information in my mind, as much as I can be comfortable with the evidence given, I don't find anything suspicious in Morse's actions. Everyone looks at the evidence and arrives at their own opinions. Any one of us could be right, and I may be totally wrong, we will just never know. In my opinion the only thing that makes Morse's actions suspicious is the knowledge that two people were murdered. He is put under a microscope because he happened to be there. Every move he made, even walking into the back yard to pick up a few pears, is put under a microscope. Since we both have made up our minds I would only like to restate my opinion that no matter how you slice it Morse had a solid alibi for the time of Abby and Andrew's murder, he gained nothing what so ever from their deaths, he was a man of his own means, and if he had wanted the farm badly enough to kill Andrew for it, why didn't he end up with it? He was family to Andrew and if he had ended up with the farm after Andrew's death it wouldn't have been that uncommon an occurance.

[Yooper]

What could Morse have done differently in order to not seem suspicious? A conscious effort to not seem suspicious would seem suspicious! Even when he recalls specifics about the trolley ride which substantiate his alibi, it looks suspicious. I guess no matter how he behaved, he was going to be the goat at first!