A heavy over coat on a stifling hot day?

[MysteryReader]

There is another reason (other than what the times dictated a male would wear) he'd wear a heavier coat. While it was in the 80s, he had been recently sick. There is a good chance that he still wasn't feeling so great that morning and perhaps, felt a bit colder than normal.

[dalcanton]

shakiboo said: “Some think Lizzie put the coat on backwards and used it to keep blood from getting on her dress…”

I have no trouble seeing this as a likely scenario – however, one thing bothers me. Would the coat have fit Lizzie, even backwards? Wasn’t she on the plump side & wasn’t Andrew tall & skinny?

[Curryong]

I actually performed an experiment some time ago, using a toy hatchet, water, a relative's overcoat and a female lying on a chaise longue. It was good fun, though completely unscientific! I posted about it on another thread.

I put my relative's coat on backwards (he is 6ft, I am 5ft I".) The coat slipped a bit on me, but the large sleeves on 1890's dresses would stop that. Also, if Lizzie had buttoned one button at the back of the Prince Albert that would also have stopped slippage.

I was completely covered to the top of my ankle boots. If Lizzie's hand, face or boots got blood-splashed she could have used a wet hankie to wipe herself down and them put the hankie in the stove.

[isn'tthat special1]

I'm sorry for some of y'all, but it was hot that day. I know given the Victorian Era style dress, but Andrew was wearing a three piece suit....that in of itself would have been ridiculous for me, not for the times, definitely hot though!! Andrew being almost 70, I'm not a doctor, but the long walk he did that morning around town, would have led to heat stroke. Not to mention, no one, at least what I have read, says anything about seeing Andrew around town in a coat. If I would have seen him, I would have been like, wow Andrew, aren't you just a bit hot in that? It just seems odd, even with the arguments I have read, that Andrew being proper and all, I can't see him wearing a three piece suit, and a wool overcoat in that heat, makes no sense. I can see how the coat could have been used by the killer, whether Lizzie or someone else, folded up and placed after killing Andrew. Would explain why covered in blood as killer wore it. It would not have been thought of at that time, but would show how if Lizzie, she could have done it, removed coat, placed under Andrew, wiped face, and hands and threw hatchet down privy, return and yell to Bridget for help. Would have taken no time between Bridget going upstairs, to be called down by Lizzie reporting father murdered.

just my thoughts.

[camgarsky4]

The Prince Albert coat, whether worn by Andrew or not, could have been used by the murderer. Per Bridget's testimony, the coat was kept in the closet just inside the dining room from the sitting room. Less than 5 feet from where Andrew's head was resting.

[Kat]

I understand what you’re thinking of, but the coat was not like an overcoat (on top of a suit coat), but rather worn like a suit coat. It would be shirt, tie, vest, and Prince Albert coat.
Picture a man grabbing his suit coat to put on, to make him presentable as he goes out.
It was sort of still in style, to wear a longer “suit coat.”
He changed from his “suit coat” to his “cardigan” or “reefer” when he got home, which is what he was wearing when found.

Lizzie’s Inquest:
Q. When you went out to the barn, where did you leave your father?
A. He had laid down on the sitting room lounge, taken off his shoes, and put on his slippers, and taken off his coat and put on the reefer. I asked him if he wanted the window left that way.
Q. Where did you leave him?
A. On the sofa.
- - - - - - -
Prelim
Dr Dolan
Q.What, if any blood was there on his clothing?
A.There was very little blood on his clothing, except on his bosom, his shirt bosom, and of course the back where the blood ran down, that is, the back of his cardigan, and his clothes were soaked, where it had run down from his face to the lounge, as it lay on the lounge.

—notice, he is still not just in his shirtsleeves, in his own home, but that may be because (my understanding is) Mr. Borden accepted business visitors in the sitting room around 11 a.m. after his walk.

[camgarsky4]

Kat, thanks for a much better and more thorough answer than I tossed out.

One of the reasons I think Andrew came 'back down' from his bedroom that day (per Bridget AJB went up to bedroom for a brief period) and kept the reefer on was that he knew John Morse was coming for lunch. These folks were so much more clothes formal that we are today, that I'm sure it was protocol that Andrew wear the reefer vs. go with shirtsleeves for even Morse.

Interesting how the story might have unfolded differently if Morse wasn't returning and Andrew had instead laid down in his bedroom.

[Kat]

If Andrew laid down in his bedroom, and was killed there, someone might have gone thru Lizzie’s room using the locked adjoining door, which would really point to her!
He pretty much had to be killed downstairs, then.
Or attacked while away from the house, altogether.

[isn'tthat special1]

ok, i still believe too warm a day for such a long wool coat. Andrew already wearing 3 piece wool suit, but if I accept that he wore it given the Victorian Era, and Andrew being a Gentleman, one issue.......why would it be bunched up under his head? makes no sense. Bridget upon letting him in, why would he have given to her to properly hang? It doesn't make sense he would fold it up, place under the pillow and then lay down. That is absurd to me

[camgarsky4]

Many folks have expressed the same viewpoint. It would also help explain how someone assaulting Andrew might avoid getting blood splatters on themselves. That said, it could have been worn by whomever the assailant was.

[Kat]

Yes it is a very large coat compared to his short cardigan, as we see in this picture. It definitely is in a very weird place and I don’t know why anyone would fold up and muss up their outdoor suit coat like that, when we know how hard it was to clean and brush down and iron clothes back then.
And remember, Dr Bowen thinks Andrew has slipped down in his position since he first saw him newly killed. The photos were taken around 3 -3:30 pm, I believe?

Here is a closeup, and I’ve outlined that coat, but I blurred Andrew’s face.
One can clic on pic to make bigger if one wants.

[camgarsky4]

And as we know from Bridget's testimony, the dining room had a similar lounge. So it seems highly likely that a sofa pillow was also available via the dining room lounge (just a couple feet away) if Andrew needed more head cushion.

The house just wasn't that big that it would take much of an effort to find cushioning that didn't include folding up a costly piece of clothing.
Andrew had just walked up the stairs to his bedroom, so he wasn't so sick or tired that he had zero energy to find something more appropriate than his nice 'going out' coat.

[Kat]

You may be surprised at the size when you visit the house!

Do we believe Andrew did go upstairs? I’ve wondered about that. When a man first gets home and wants to relax, doesn’t he empty his pockets? Say, on his bureau? But Andrew had stuff in his pockets: money, change, chewing tobacco, what else?
Why did he go up there, if he did, do we know?