pictures of lizzie......

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Stefani
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by Stefani »

Look buddy, I have a high resolution copy of these images, from the Fall River Historical Society, and you personally can purchase such photos yourself. There is a fee.

Michael Martins, the curator of the Fall River Historical Society, verified the sheet and told me of the Sarah/Emma photo. So you really need to be reasonable here. I am not fighting you. But you seem to be wanting to disparage me.

I believe that you owe me an apology. I do my research. I stick to sources. I don't spread fake news or fake ideas. In fact, I hate it when myths are created and then get into the water supply. I fight against that all the time.

I am not a knowitall, or someone who is just "seeing things" in this regard. I have confirmation. Of both stories. Do you?
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by Stefani »

Read Mondo Lizzie!
https://lizzieandrewborden.com/MondoLizzie/

Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by mbhenty »

Hey Stefani... sometimes what you think you see is not really the story.

That lady in the picture may not be Abby at all, and that may not be a sheet but a parachute on a women who jumped off the clock tower on city hall and crashed through the window coming to rest by the side of the bed at the Kelly house.




.
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

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more.
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by mbhenty »

But let me conclude here.

My offer is not off the cuff, Wendy.

I sincerely regret my approach on this matter. And for that young lady I'm sorry.


My approach to your comments were not fair. Sorry if I ruined it for you.

But I did not bait you. Honest. When I posted that I had the facts they were not in my hand more than a couple of hours.

So, if you are still upset, I understand. In your post you appear to have other issues with me. It's my style and not for everyone.

Thus, hope you can ride above it, but if not I understand. Not saying that I'm happy about it. Just understand.

This is a fun site and you appear to be having a pleasurable stay.

I don't intend to spoil it for you. But be prepared. I have this censorious and accusatory sword by my side and at times I wheel it freely.

Enjoy the weather. Looks like England is having a pleasant one. Can't say the same for northern Scotland today.

:study:
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by KGDevil »

Officer Harrington's trial testimony:

Q. Where did you go after you first entered the house?
A. I asked a question or two, and I was directed to a door on the west side of the kitchen. It was closed. I opened it and went into a room which was called the sitting room.
Q. Yes. And you discovered Mr. Borden's body there?
A. Yes, sir; on a sofa which rested on the north side of the house was the form of a man partially covered with a sheet, going from the head, the west end of the lounge, down a little below the knees. Below that black pants and a pair of laced shoes.
Q. Did you do anything, or simply see the body covered with the sheet?
A. I raised the sheet from the face and looked at it.

-----------------------------------

Q. Then where did you go?
A. I asked a question in regard to the other murder, and they told me she was upstairs.
Q. Then you went up?
A. I went out the front hall, up the stairs, and as I got part way up I looked toward a door on the north side of the hall. On the far side of the room, under the bed, I saw the form of a woman. I went up and entered the room.
Q. Describe a little more particularly where you were when you saw the form of the woman?
A. Well, I should say I was about midway on the stairs.
Q. And your head was where with reference to the hall floor?
A. Just above the floor, sir.
Q. Was there any difficulty in seeing the body?
A. No, sir.
Q. Then where did you go?
A. I went upstairs, along the hall, into the room, around the foot of the bed, and stood a short distance from her body and looked at her.
Q. Did you notice anything? If you did you can state it?
A. I noticed that the head had been cut and there was blood around the floor, blood on the back of the dress. There was blood on the pillow sham nearest to her, and some on the spread.
Q. Did you observe anything with reference to the condition of the blood on or about Mrs. Borden's head?
A. Nothing more, sir, than it was quite dark.
Q. Thence where did you go?
A. I then turned around to come out, and on the threshold of the door stood Officers Cogswell and Riley. I stepped into the hall, turned toward these to go to the head of the stairs, and as I did so the door on the east of the end of the hall was ajar. In that room I saw Miss Borden and Miss Russell.
Q. That was Miss Lizzie Borden, of course, you mean?
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by Stefani »

Bridget was asked by Dr. Bowen to get two sheets and she went into Mrs. Borden's dressing room and got them. Andrew was covered with one and it stands to reason Abby was also covered. We have this from Dr. Seabury Bowen's testimony at trial:

Q. How did she then lie?
A. She lay directly on her face with her hands under her.

Q. Are you able to tell us how the hands were at that time? If you can, won’t you illustrate it?
A. Her hands were about that way. (Illustrating)

Q. She was lying on her face and her hands were under her in the manner you describe?
A. Yes, sir.

Page 318

Q. That is, they were below a horizontal line drawn across the sheet. They would be below that, would they, on a person?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. I don’t know that I get the line very exactly. At all events, below a horizontal line drawn across from one shoulder to another?
A. There was no particular angle of the arm up this way. The elbow was nearly at right angles.

Q. Now do you recall---of course you knew her well, and knew she was a stout woman ---do you recall how much of that space between the bureau and the bed she filled up; whether she practically occupied, when lying on her face, the space between the bureau and the bed?
A. She filled it up very well, very thoroughly, very fully.


So it seems the question is to him about where Abby's hands were in the photo of her dead body. As we know by looking at the image, the arms are under her above the line of the sheet.
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by KGDevil »

The sheet that photograph was on. You cannot draw a line across a body. "They would be below that, would they, on a person?"Not the sheet on the body. Do you read all of the witnesses who traipsed upstairs to look at the body, who do not mention anything at all about a sheet being over the body, yet they mention Andrew's sheet covered body. They were all free to look at it. They even moved the bed out of the way to get a better look at the body. Not for purposes of taking pictures. But no matter, 100 years plus later, you and the FRHS will always know better correct?

Also, the sheets were sent for before they had even discovered Abby's body. I think you know that right?
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by KGDevil »

I can get the lovely lady from the historical society here to type up something about NOT seeing a sheet if that helps. She also works in restoration of old photographs. But, I doubt that would be taken seriously either.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by KGDevil »

Anyway, I was enjoying my membership here. There are a few lovely people. But I think I'll keep my research to a personal level from now on. Thank you.
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by Stefani »

Again, you do not have a high res image of this. Or do you? If you did, you would see the sheet. Do you suppose Abby wore a white skirt? It certainly isn't her apron, wrapped all the way around her body.

So you doubt me and you doubt Michael Martins, the curator of the Fall River Historical Society. I guess your local HS is more authoritative on the Borden case. Who knew?

Many questions were posed about whether Andrew was covered by a sheet. However, NO ONE asked if Abby was covered. If you or I had been there, perhaps every little detail would have been cleared up. But part of the frustration in this case is that questions were not asked that we now wish were.

The sworn testimony mentions a sheet. Sorry if you have an issue with that.
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by KGDevil »

"So you doubt me and you doubt Michael Martins, the curator of the Fall River Historical Society. I guess your local HS is more authoritative on the Borden case. Who knew?"

What exactly does covering a body with a sheet, and whether or not you can see it in a photo, have to do with just the Borden case? You prove my point even further every time you reply. I don't think I can explain how strange it seems that nobody else in the world can look at a photograph, or read testimony, and understand it correctly except you and the FRHS. Nobody else can use a magnifying glass that skillfully. It must be a skill taught only to the elite few.

Nobody outside these elite few can comprehend anything correctly, it must all be clarified by them. Not even if you've been restoring old photographs for 15 years. They weren't photos related to the Borden case. So she couldn't possibly form a valid opinion. Who knew? I will have to explain to her that she will have to refer to you all in the future because she can't possibly know what she's talking about.
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by KGDevil »

Do you suppose Abby wore a white skirt?
It's a black and white photo. We can't see what color skirt she is wearing.
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by Stefani »

Dude, you are the person who brought up the sheet here. I didn't. I was responding to you questioning my scholarship and sources. Anyone could have found this out. Anyone. But they didn't. Nobody found those portraits of Andrew and Sarah in Swansea, either, until I noticed them. Or the Morse family images, including the new Emma and Lizzie, from the donations of Orrin Gardner. Or Emma's books there in Swansea. So my "discoveries" are well documented.

Your zeroing in on me, personally, makes me think you are very close with someone who is banned from this forum who likewise enjoys getting my goat and disparaging me. I've only met one other person who pursues this type of ridiculous attack.

I don't see the point of it.

Enjoy your day.
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by Stefani »

KGDevil wrote: Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:25 pm
Do you suppose Abby wore a white skirt?
It's a black and white photo. We can't see what color skirt she is wearing.
We can see the white of the skirt.
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by KGDevil »

You cannot see the color of anything in a black and white photo.That's why it is called a black and white photo. Unless you also have super powers to colorize prints in your mind. I see a lot of white in this photo. And a lot of black. Thanks for that bit of comic relief.
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by KGDevil »

:eye:
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by KGDevil »

:-|
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by amber_g27 »

Hmm this is a hard one, i'm not really getting "Lizzie" vibes off this photo... but here's a photo of "young" Lizzie. https://www.google.nl/url?sa=i&rct=j&q= ... 4309342338
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by BeeQueen »

That’s not Lizzie - that photo was discussed in a different discussion.
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by twinsrwe »

Hello, amber_g27. Welcome to the forum.

I agree with BeeQueen. I don't believe that is a picture of Lizzie Borden, either.

BeeQueen: I tried to find the other thread regarding the questionable picture of Lizzie, but could not find it. Do you recall the thread, and if so would you mind posting the URL to it? Thanks.
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by twinsrwe »

Questionable picture of Lizzie Borden:

180px-Elizabeth_Andrew_Borden_6.jpg


Known picture of Lizzie Borden:

showImage.jpg


Here are the differences that I see between these two photos:

Lizzie had thin hair along her part line.
Lizzie's ears are larger
Lizzie's lips are fuller.
Lizzie has a fuller face.
The chin and jaw lines are different.

Does anyone see other differences?
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by BeeQueen »

Yes - also Lizzie has a more prominent face whereas the other has a flatter face. In addition, Lizzie doesn’t have an upturned nose.
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by twinsrwe »

BeeQueen, I think you missed the question I posted above, so I will ask you again:

I tried to find the other thread regarding the questionable picture of Lizzie, but could not find it. Do you recall the thread, and if so would you mind posting the URL to it? Thanks.
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by BeeQueen »

Twinsrwe - sorry - I missed your question. I don't remember - I tried to search around now to try to find the discussion and couldn't. Sorry! Next time I'll ensure to post the URL.
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by BeeQueen »

For fun, I put the two photos above into http://www.pictriev.com/fc.php and the result was 55% similarity.

I also put the "not Lizzie" photo in Google images (https://images.google.com/) and it was amazing how many websites inaccurately state that the "not Lizzie" photo is Lizzie!
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by twinsrwe »

BeeQueen wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:52 am Twinsrwe - sorry - I missed your question. I don't remember - I tried to search around now to try to find the discussion and couldn't. Sorry! Next time I'll ensure to post the URL.
It's OK; I just thought you may have had the URL handy. Thank you for attempting to find the thread to that discussion, and for your future action of posting the URLs.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by twinsrwe »

BeeQueen wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:03 am For fun, I put the two photos above into http://www.pictriev.com/fc.php and the result was 55% similarity. ...
Wow, 55% similar features. Very interesting! I wonder if we would get the same results if we used this known image lizzie instead on the one above:

(8a) Family Photo - 12a ~ Lizzie in 1889.jpg

Thank you for providing us with the above link; I have not heard of it.
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Last edited by twinsrwe on Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by twinsrwe »

BeeQueen wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:03 am ... I also put the "not Lizzie" photo in Google images (https://images.google.com/) and it was amazing how many websites inaccurately state that the "not Lizzie" photo is Lizzie!
I agree, it is amazing how many people buy into the falsehoods of the Borden case. The questionable photo of Lizzie and William Borden being the alleged son of Andrew J. Borden are two that come to mind. We can thank Arnold Brown for the Billy Borden fiasco, but I have no idea who is responsible for the questionable picture of Lizzie that is shown above.

Thank you for providing us with the above link; I have not heard of it.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by PicturesOfLizzie »

Has anyone seen this photo? It’s obviously not Emma and Lizzie, but it appears on a website called Mass. Moments and has started to spread a bit on the Internet. I’m curious to know where it came from. https://www.massmoments.org/files/asse ... 1_1892.jpg
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