About uncle John’s behaviours (part 7)

[Franz]

I continue to investigate the “Tow bodies tour” of Morse after he entered into the house. In the topic “About uncle John’s behaviours (part 6)”, I said that “if Morse was innocent, he should have ignored the place where Abby’s body was lying. Someone might have informed him”. It should be the same for the location of Andrew’s body. Let’s read again Mrs. Churchill’s Inquest testimony (p. 130):

Q: About what time in the order of events did he (Morse) come?
A: Both Mr. and Mrs. Borden had been found when he came. I think I was the first one that let him in. I says, “Mr. Morse, something terrible has happened, someone has killed both Mr. and Mrs. Borden.” He says, “what”, and hollered “Lizzie”, as loud as he could holler, and rushed into the dining room. Alice heard him, and I think let him in, and he went into the sitting room and the door was closed between the sitting room and the kitchen.

According to Mrs. Churchill’s testimony, Morse entered first into the dining room from the kitchen. I think her testimony is reliable, not only because it is consistent with others, but also, she added an interesting detail: “the door was closed (at that moment) between the sitting room and the kitchen”, in other words, Morse couldn’t see Andrew’s body through that (closed) door and he couldn’t enter directly into the sitting room from the kitchen (without opening the door which separated these two rooms).

This is from Morse Preliminary Hearing (pp. 254-255):

Q (Dr. Jennings): After you got in you saw Dr. Bowen?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Anybody else that you recollect?
A: Two or three policemen, I think.
…
Q: All you saw was Mr. Sawyer, and Bridget, and Dr. Bowen, and two or three policemen?
A: There were several ladies there, I did not notice who they were.
Q: where were they when you came in?
A: I think some of them in the sitting room, and some in the dining room right close to the door.
Q: Do you know what they were doing?
A: I do not.
Q: Did you see Lizzie at that time when you first passed through to go up stairs?
A: No sir.
Q: Did you see these women when you first passed through to go up stairs?
A: I think I did.
Q: You did not notice who they were?
A: I did not.

And in Morse’s Inquest testimony (p. 104):

Q: Where did you see Lizzie when you got in there?
A: I think in the dining room.
Q: Who was she with?
A: That I could not tell.

So, if Morse were innocent, when he entered into the dining room, he should ignored still the place where Andrew’s body was lying, because, the persons present in the house, “some of them in the sitting room, and some in the dining room”. In other words, there was nobody who could inform Morse something before he reached the dining room. (Please keep in mind that neither Mr. Sawyer nor Bridget testified that they, outside of the house, had informed Morse the location of the two bodies. Mrs. Churchill should have had no time to give Morse any information, because after being told by Mrs. Churchill the horrible news (for the third time), Morse said “what”, and hollered Lizzie’s name, and rushed into the dining room.) At the very moment he entered the dining room, Morse should have had no idea at all about the location of the two bodies. (Mr. and Mrs. Borden might have been killed in their bed room, who knows?) But from the entrance door of the dining room Morse could not see at all the body of Andrew, and therefore, he couldn’t rush directly in that direction. So, if someone did inform Morse where Andrew’s body was, this must have occurred in the dining room.

Who was in the dining room, then? 1) Lizzie. But Lizzie didn’t tell Morse nothing, because they didn’t exchange any words at that moment, Morse even said that he didn’t see Lizzie when he “first passed through”. 2) Alice. Did Alice inform Morse about Andrew’s body? Highly unlikely, because, according to the testimony of Morse himself, he didn’t even notice who these women were; he could not tell with whom Lizzie was! 3) Dr. Bowen and two or three officers? I don’t know if they were or not in the dining room when Morse entered there, but always according to the testimony of Morse himself, he even didn’t know what they were doing. But more important here should be Alice’s Inquest testimony (p. 148). Let’s read it again:

A: I got Lizzie into the dining room, on to the dining room lounge, and we were there, I don’t know how long, when her Uncle came in.
…
Q: Who was with you and with Lizzie?
A: In the dining room, I dont think there was any one, no one in the dining room, except when Mr. Morse came in.

Is Alice’s testimony reliable? If yes, we could be certain that when Morse entered the dining room, there were only Alice and Lizzie. Lizzie didn’t speak with Morse. And, as I said, it should be highly unlikely that Alice exchanged any words with Morse. Now let’s read again Mrs. Churchill’s Inquest testimony: “He (Morse)…rushed into the dining room. Alice heard him, and I think let him in, and he went into the sitting room.” Between his rushing “into the dining room” and his going “into the sitting room”, Mrs. Churchill didn’t mention that something occurred in the dining room. Alice herself didn’t testify that she, completely ignored by Morse at that moment, informed him about Andrew's body by her own initiative. I wonder, how could Morse know the location of Andrew’s body without being informed neither by Lizzie nor by Alice, the unique two persons in the dining room when he entered that room and passed through?

If I am not wrong, what we have, in the source documents, are only the words of Morse himself: he mentioned twice that he was told – not “he asked and was told”, but only “he was told” – that Abby’s body was in the guest room. But, 1) I don’t know if this is true or not, because, I repeat, there were only Morse’s words, if I am not mistaken, we haven’t the testimony of any other person to confirm Morse’s words; 2) even if his testimony about Abby’s body were true, he could have been told this by someone in the sitting room when he “cast one glance” at Andrew’s body. In other words, if I recollect well, no one never testified that Morse was informed by someone in the dining room that Andrew’s body was in the sitting room. On the contrary, the testimonies make me think that it was not impossible that no one told Morse nothing in the dining room, nothing at all: considering the fact that he hollered Lizzie’s name but he didn’t see her when he first passed through the dining room, and he didn’t notice who was together with Lizzie, I hardly believe that Morse stopped in that room for any moment, because, if he rushed into the room hollering Lizzie’s name, and if he did stop in the room, why didn’t he see Lizzie and exchange some words with her, his poor niece who had just lost, in a most horrible way, her father and her stepmother? When Morse entered the dining room, if innocent – I repeat – he should totally ignore anything about the two bodies, so if Morse wanted to be given any information, shouldn’t be to his niece Lizzie that he addressed his questions? But, if I am not wrong, the fact is that Morse didn’t see Lizzie, and Alice didn’t testify nothing about Morse’s being informed (by Alice herself) in the dining room about the location of Andrew’s body, Mrs. Churchill didn’t testify nothing, Dr. Bowen didn’t testify nothing, Morse himself didn’t testify nothing, the officers didn’t testify nothing, Mr. Sawyer didn’t testify nothing, Bridget didn’t testify nothing. Nothing at all! It seems that what we have is only the total lack of any testimony about this important issue. Yes, one person could have forgotten something. But if all the people, when questioned what happened in those crucial moments, never mentioned something, do I have the right to doubt if this something actually occurred?

My question: after Morse entered into the house, did anyone tell him that Andrew was lying dead on the sofa in the sitting room? If so, who? and where was Morse given this information? Did the “brilliant” attorney Knowlton ascertain this point? If nobody had never given Morse this information, and if he was innocent, how could he know where Andrew’s body was?

Am I totally wrong? What do you think?

[PossumPie]

Franz, I like your enthusiasm, but you should read up some articles on "logic and arguments" There are some good webpages, type Logic and arguments into Google, and pick some of the pages to read.
Logic says that this was a small house, many people were inside, a body was in one of the downstairs rooms, and NOT every word said by every person was written down. I'm just guessing, but I BET even you could have found the body in that downstairs. Just a wild guess, but I bet you could. Someone could have taken his elbow and led him to it, someone could have pointed, or EVEN he might have wandered through 2 or 3 rooms and found it on his own. After all, people were in there snapping pictures, talking, etc. It is a TINY house. PLEASE read some articles on Logic and argument. It will help you form opinions better, and make you a better detective

[Franz]

Franz, I like your enthusiasm, but you should read up some articles on "logic and arguments" There are some good webpages, type Logic and arguments into Google, and pick some of the pages to read.
Logic says that this was a small house, many people were inside, a body was in one of the downstairs rooms, and NOT every word said by every person was written down. I'm just guessing, but I BET even you could have found the body in that downstairs. Just a wild guess, but I bet you could. Someone could have taken his elbow and led him to it, someone could have pointed, or EVEN he might have wandered through 2 or 3 rooms and found it on his own. After all, people were in there snapping pictures, talking, etc. It is a TINY house. PLEASE read some articles on Logic and argument. It will help you form opinions better, and make you a better detective

1. PossumPie, Morse, if innocent, should have no idea at all if the bodies were in a room downstairs or upstairs.

2. I don't know if the Borden house is tiny or not, I have never been there. I remember of having read some member say the house is a pretty comfortable one. Even if the house was really tiny, so the dining room a tiny one, Morse entered there hollering Lizzie's name, and there were only Lizzie and Alice, why didn't he see Lizzie? If there was nobody in the dining room, Morse could have passed the room and adventurely found Andrew's body in the sitting room afterwards. But he hollered Lizzie's name and Lizzie was in the dining room and he didn't see her, and he didn't notice who was together with Lizzie!!! So I think it should be not impossible that Morse didn't stop in the dining room at all, he probably rushed into the dining room and rushed through that room quickly, and then, rushed into the sitting room.

3. There were 7 or 8 persons in the house, and they were all questioned by the authorities, and if I am not wrong, none of them testified that someone informed Morse about Andrew's body. I repeat, one person might have forgotten something, but if all people never mentioned something, I doubt that this something actually occured.

[Franz]

I invite you to reread this topic. Good reading!

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3853

[Franz]

Franz, I like your enthusiasm, but you should read up some articles on "logic and arguments" There are some good webpages, type Logic and arguments into Google, and pick some of the pages to read.
Logic says that this was a small house, many people were inside, a body was in one of the downstairs rooms, and NOT every word said by every person was written down. I'm just guessing, but I BET even you could have found the body in that downstairs. Just a wild guess, but I bet you could. Someone could have taken his elbow and led him to it, someone could have pointed, or EVEN he might have wandered through 2 or 3 rooms and found it on his own. After all, people were in there snapping pictures, talking, etc. It is a TINY house. PLEASE read some articles on Logic and argument. It will help you form opinions better, and make you a better detective

PossumPie, thank you for your advice. We have always plenty of things to learn in our life.

What I did in this topic is this: according the testimonies and their reliability, I concluded that, most probably, when Morse entered into the house, Mr. Sawyer and Bridget were at the side door, Mrs. Churchill was somewhere in the entry corridor, Alice and Lizzie were in the dining room, and Dr. Bowen and the officers in the sitting room. Because Morse rushed into the dining room but he didn’t see Lizzie and he didn’t notice who was together with Lizzie, I speculated that, most probably, Morse rushed into the dining room but didn’t stop at all in that room, he rushed through the dining room and reached quickly the sitting room, without being informed by anyone.

Morse rushed into the dining room hollering as loud as he could Lizzie’s name, whoever present in the house might have thought that Morse worried very much for Lizzie and wanted to meet her immediately, in this case, who, without being asked by Morse, could have permitted himself (herself) to give Morse any kind of sign to indicate him the location of Andrew’s body? Taking Morse's elbow? Who? and where?

[Franz]

PossumPie, there is a discussion in the forum about the size of the Borden house:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2973

[Franz]

A few minutes ago I watched a documentary on the TV about Florence Unger’s murder. The woman was found dead while on holiday with her family. Three years after her husband was convicted. Besides other more significant proves, there was a circumstantial evidence: when the owner of the house told Mr. Unger that his wife’s body was found, Mr. Unger, instead of asking where the body was, went towards directly to the place of the murder.

I could not help me of thinking about the Borden case and … uncle John’s “two bodies tour” through the Borden house in that fatal morning.

Yes, there is a difference: in the Unger case, the owner of the house testified explicitly that Mr. Unger didn’t ask nothing; in the Borden case, if I am not wrong, the 7 or 8 persons in the house, Morse included, when questioned by the authorities, never mentioned that Morse had been informed by someone about the location of Andrew’s body. Even though, could I do some – if I dare say – reasonable speculation?

[twinsrwe]

Please note: The highlighting and underlining in the following quote is mine...

…

So, if Morse were innocent, when he entered into the dining room, he should ignored still the place where Andrew’s body was lying, because, the persons present in the house, “some of them in the sitting room, and some in the dining room”. In other words, there was nobody who could inform Morse something before he reached the dining room. (Please keep in mind that neither Mr. Sawyer nor Bridget testified that they, outside of the house, had informed Morse the location of the two bodies. Mrs. Churchill should have had no time to give Morse any information, because after being told by Mrs. Churchill the horrible news (for the third time), Morse said “what”, and hollered Lizzie’s name, and rushed into the dining room.) At the very moment he entered the dining room, Morse should have had no idea at all about the location of the two bodies. (Mr. and Mrs. Borden might have been killed in their bed room, who knows?) But from the entrance door of the dining room Morse could not see at all the body of Andrew, and therefore, he couldn’t rush directly in that direction. So, if someone did inform Morse where Andrew’s body was, this must have occurred in the dining room.

…

Is Alice’s testimony reliable? If yes, we could be certain that when Morse entered the dining room, there were only Alice and Lizzie. Lizzie didn’t speak with Morse. And, as I said, it should be highly unlikely that Alice exchanged any words with Morse. Now let’s read again Mrs. Churchill’s Inquest testimony: “He (Morse)…rushed into the dining room. Alice heard him, and I think let him in, and he went into the sitting room.” Between his rushing “into the dining room” and his going “into the sitting room”, Mrs. Churchill didn’t mention that something occurred in the dining room. Alice herself didn’t testify that she, completely ignored by Morse at that moment, informed him about Andrew's body by her own initiative. I wonder, how could Morse know the location of Andrew’s body without being informed neither by Lizzie nor by Alice, the unique two persons in the dining room when he entered that room and passed through? …

Franz, I have a couple of questions for you:

1. Why do you feel that ‘it should be highly unlikely that Alice exchanged any words with Morse’?
2. How did Mrs. Churchill know that Alice ‘heard’ Morse?

There is no doubt in my mind that Alice had to have been Mrs. Churchill’s informant about hearing Morse, letting him in and that he went into the sitting room. (If Lizzie had told Mrs. Churchill that 'Alice heard Morse', then Mrs. Churchill is testifying to second hand information). Therefore, I think it is highly probable that it was Alice who told Morse where Andrew’s body was.

[Franz]

...
Franz, I have a couple of questions for you:

1. Why do you feel that ‘it should be highly unlikely that Alice exchanged any words with Morse’?
2. How did Mrs. Churchill know that Alice ‘heard’ Morse?

There is no doubt in my mind that Alice had to have been Mrs. Churchill’s informant about hearing Morse. letting him in and that he went into the sitting room. (If Lizzie had told Mrs. Churchill that 'Alice heard Morse', then Mrs. Churchill is testifying to second hand information). Therefore, I think it is highly probable that it was Alice who told Morse where Andrew’s body was.

Thank you for you interest, twinsrwe. Maybe you have noticed that only one member answered my original thread.

Now I will try my best.

1. IMO it should be highly unlikely that Alice exchanged any words with Morse, I have at least three reasons for such a conjecture: a) no one testified she did; b) Morse himself said that when he past through the dining room for the first time, he even didn't notice who these people were in that room, it should not be so if he exchanged any words with Alice; c) please don't forget that when Morse directed himself to the dining room, he "hollered “Lizzie”, as loud as he could holler" (Mrs. Churchill's testimony). If he hollered so loudly, I imagine that everyone in the house should have heard him, Alice included. Because he hollered Lizzie's name, the most probable explanation should be that he probably worried for her niece and wanted to see her immediately. In this case, when Alice let him enter the dining room -- attention: Lizzie was there -- it's very difficult -- almost impossible --- for me to imagine that Alice could have permitted herself to interrupt Morse's directing himself towards Lizzie to meet her by informing him the location of Andrew's body. Because, judging by Morse hollering Lizzie's name, what he wanted to do at that moment was not to know where was the body of any of the two victims, but to meet her niece.

2. I think Mrs. Churchill didn't need an informant to know that Alice "heard" Morse. As we many times quoted, "Morse hollered “Lizzie”, as loud as he could holler". In this case, when Mrs. Churchill saw Alice letting Morse enter, she might have made esaily --- and correctly --- a conjecture that Alice heard, as all other people in the house, Morse's hollering, and therefore, let him enter the dining room.

[debbiediablo]

I testified under oath on Tuesday afternoon of this week regarding a traffic accident that I witnessed. My profession requires a high level of accuracy in relating conversation and behavior so I keep a hardbound notebook with me at all times. Absolutely everything that happens (or fails to happen) gets written down immediately. I can cite every phone conversation I've had since January 1, both time and place. I can also check to see what groceries I purchased each week since then. When the puppies had their vaccinations. How much fuel was purchased for the car, mileage at the time. My daily levels of pain. On and on and on.

What amazes me is how much my testimony disagreed with the investigating officer. He misquoted the driver of one car and her passenger, sometimes twisting what was said to fit his worldview that the driver's prescription medication caused her to fall asleep and drive into a ditch. The officer testified they had been in Elkader earlier in the day when they both said they'd been in Manchester. He said they were in the pharmacy, implying that the driver had access to painkillers which caused the accident. Never mind that the defense presented pharmacy records showing pick up of blood pressure medication. This officer of the court totally left out all discussion about the driver's health problems. Later he testified that his notes were made 3-4 days afterward and based on recollection - as opposed to contemporaneous notes.

The point I'm trying to make is that testimony is not all inclusive and sometimes, after a long period of time has elapsed, sometimes it's not even accurate. Taking an oath in court does not guarantee accuracy even if the witness is not deliberately committing perjury. At times of great tragedy humans rarely respond in what would seem logical or predictable ways. What you're saying, Franz, is possible...but I don't see it as probable. I'm more inclined to think Morse picked up on all the non-verbal signs - closed door, people gathered in the area around the sitting room, gestures and gaze toward the sitting room. Enough non-verbals that no one needed to tell him where the body was. His subconscious already knew.

[Curryong]

I am very impressed, deb, that occurs in your daily life! I'm sure police officers and officials of all kinds do the same thing as the investigating officer in this case. Often these people use the excuse that they are overwhelmed by paperwork. While I'm sure that's true inaccuracies in cases like these assume great importance.

(In my own work in the social welfare area I've often popped down a guesstimate of times etc because of the busyness of the day, though I keep an accurate record of interviews and write them up from notes.)

As far as Uncle John is concerned we really don't know, as you say, who told Uncle John what. A witness like Sawyer wouldn't have total recall of all he said to everyone on that day and the same with Bridget, who was probably in shock. As you say, testimony is not all-inclusive. In fact police nowadays become extremely suspicious of witnesses who are (a) overly helpful and (b) can recall absolutely everything they did and said to others for hours at a time. One's memory is a capricious thing, as you've pointed out Debbie.

IF Uncle John was told by anyone where Andrew's body lay I would guess it to be Bridget, who seems to have been, naturally, overcome by the events of that day. Later she obviously didn't recall it, if so. That doesn't mean anything more sinister than she was in turmoil and had other things on her mind. However, I agree that non-verbal signs are powerful and of course Uncle John knew that Andrew had not been well and was in the habit, when feeling seedy of lying on the sitting room couch.

[twinsrwe]

...

1. IMO it should be highly unlikely that Alice exchanged any words with Morse, I have at least three reasons for such a conjecture: a) no one testified she did; b) Morse himself said that when he past through the dining room for the first time, he even didn't notice who these people were in that room, it should not be so if he exchanged any words with Alice; c) please don't forget that when Morse directed himself to the dining room, he "hollered “Lizzie”, as loud as he could holler" (Mrs. Churchill's testimony). If he hollered so loudly, I imagine that everyone in the house should have heard him, Alice included. Because he hollered Lizzie's name, the most probable explanation should be that he probably worried for her niece and wanted to see her immediately. In this case, when Alice let him enter the dining room -- attention: Lizzie was there -- it's very difficult -- almost impossible --- for me to imagine that Alice could have permitted herself to interrupt Morse's directing himself towards Lizzie to meet her by informing him the location of Andrew's body. Because, judging by Morse hollering Lizzie's name, what he wanted to do at that moment was not to know where was the body of any of the two victims, but to meet her niece.

2. I think Mrs. Churchill didn't need an informant to know that Alice "heard" Morse. As we many times quoted, "Morse hollered “Lizzie”, as loud as he could holler". In this case, when Mrs. Churchill saw Alice letting Morse enter, she might have made esaily --- and correctly --- a conjecture that Alice heard, as all other people in the house, Morse's hollering, and therefore, let him enter the dining room.

I think it is unlikely that Alice exchanged any verbal words with John Morse, regarding the location of Andrew's body. However, I believe Alice most likely did indicate to John where Andrew's body was located via non-verbal communication.

Yes, Mrs. Churchill testified that John Morse hollered “Lizzie”, as loud as he could holler. However, you are assuming that everyone in the house heard him. If it is true, that everyone in the house heard him, then why didn't Lizzie respond to her uncle's hollering out her name? Could it be because she didn't hear him. I think it is a possibility. Lizzie testified that she did not hear anything when Abby was killed, even though she was the only one in the house at the time. So, if Lizzie didn’t hear Abby fall to the floor, and the killer hacking away at her skull, 19 times, then I believe it is possible that Lizzie did not hear her Uncle John hollering her name. It is also possible that she heard a voice hollering, but failed to register in her brain that the voice was her Uncle John, calling out her name. Lizzie’s thought and attention could very well have been focused on an entirely different issue. I’m just saying that there are varies possibilities.

I still stand by my previous statement: There is no doubt in my mind that Alice had to have been Mrs. Churchill’s informant about hearing Morse, letting him in and that he went into the sitting room. If Alice did not inform Mrs. Churchill that she heard John Morse hollering Lizzie’s name, then Mrs. Churchill only assumed that Alice heard him. Furthermore, Mrs. Churchill did not state if Alice heard John hollering Lizzie's name, or if she heard him open the dining room door when he rushed in.

Mrs. Churchill did not testify that Alice let John Morse into the dining room; she did not state exactly what room Alice let him into.

Mrs. Churchill’s Inquest testimony (p. 130):

Q: About what time in the order of events did he (Morse) come?
A: Both Mr. and Mrs. Borden had been found when he came. I think I was the first one that let him in. I says, “Mr. Morse, something terrible has happened, someone has killed both Mr. and Mrs. Borden.” He says, “what”, and hollered “Lizzie”, as loud as he could holler, and rushed into the dining room. Alice heard him, and I think let him in, and he went into the sitting room and the door was closed between the sitting room and the kitchen.

Mrs. Churchill stated that John 'rushed into the dining room'. She did not state that John rushed to the dining room door, and Alice let him in. I believe Alice let John into the sitting room.

[Franz]

Thank you for your replies, my friends.

It seems to me that we all agree that no one ever testified that anyone informed Morse about the location of Andrew's body.

Non-verbal signs... well... Did anyone testify to have informed uncle John with non-verbal signs? No. This is nothing else but a SPECULATION. No more no less than what I did: based on the FACT the no one ever testified to have given any kind of information to Morse about Andrew's body, I speculated that Morse went directly to his body without being told by anyone that the body was there, because -- my theory -- he knew, he had known (having been informed in one way or in another by his accomplice) that the body was there. He hollered Lizzie's name because the reason told him that this should be his reasonable reation in such a circumstance, but tortured by his curiosity --- it was he that orchestered the murder but still he didn't see the bodies! (the criminologues tell us that a killer very often returns to the place of the murder, right?) ---, he could not help himself of going directly to the sitting room, that's why he didn't care who were in the dinning room while passing through it, even though he hollered Lizzie's name: as I have said, Morse was a bad actor ("what (?)" he answered in this stupid way to Mrs. Churcill, even though he had been told twice that a murder occured in the house. LOL!).

So from the same fact we have two speculations: 1) Morse was informed by some one with non-verbal signs, or some one informed him explicitly but forgot to testify this detail (IMO very very improbable); 2) the mine --- Morse was not informed at all by any one with any kind of communication. I think we have each 50% chance to be correct. The first speculation would not add nothing to the case; the second (the mine) --- if proved, but I can't --- would be, on the contrary, a strong circumstancial evidence against Morse.

The unique member who had replied to my thread was PossumPie, who judged that I was not logic. Please tell me, if I speculated as you that some one informed Morse with non-verbal signs, would I have been more logic (according to PossumPie)?

[Franz]

P.S. --- I think that when we discuss a particular detail of the case, we should, before the discussion, assume that every one involved in the case was innocent. And then, from the fact that no one never testified to have informed uncle John the location of Andrew's body, we could arrive to two speculations:

1) Some one informed him in one or in another way but didn't testify this detail; or such testimony existed but was lost.

2) Morse was not infomed by anyone and he directed himself to the sitting room where Andrew was lying dead on the sofa. (And if so, why?)

As I said in the precedent reply, each of these two speculations has 50% chance to be the truth.

Instead, we could NOT assume before that Lizzie was guilty (Morse innocent), and therefore Morse must have been informed somehow by some one.

Any thoughts?

[debbiediablo]

I totally agree, Franz.

We can attribute motive to Lizzie but that's conjecture. She had opportunity, but so did Bridget. Maybe several others had opportunity that we don't know about. Testimony need not be perjury to be an untruth, plus it also depends entirely on who is called to testify and what questions are asked. There's a huge body of knowledge about the murder, the Bordens, Uncle John, Bridget, Dr. Bowen and the hatchet on Crowe's roof (plus all the other peripherals) that is most likely lost forever.

What I do think is that most unsolved crimes are not the result of perpetrator brilliance so much as luck and investigatory incompetence. We credit Lizzie with killing Abby first so Andrew's inheritance would pass to his daughters; with somehow avoiding blood splatter excepting one fleabite; with somehow hiding the dress worn in commission of the crimes in what would appear to be an overtly obvious place; with making the hatchet disappear forever; and with executing and cleaning up in record time which includes disposing of murder weapon and possibly blood-stained garments. Yet this brilliant criminal has a muddled alibi; is dumb enough to burn the murder dress in front of a neighbor; tries to purchase poison two blocks from home where her face is known; and has the chutzpah to commit the Victorian version of disrespect for one of the victims.

In the end, the best evidence we have against Lizzie is that we can't figure out who else might have done it given the evidence at hand, except for Bridget and she gets a bye from almost everyone.

So yes, there is no smoking gun or bloody hatchet...much of what we choose to believe or choose not to believe is based on assumption.

[Franz]

Thank you debbiediablo.

50%, this is a very very high percentage, IMO. And when I consider other strange behaviours of Morse all together...

You said: "What I do think is that most unsolved crimes are not the result of perpetrator brilliance so much as luck and investigatory incompetence." Right! Investigatory incompetence. Our Mr. Knowlton might have thought to ask Morse a number of questions. But, hélas, he failed. Just some examples:

1. Mr. Morse, you have brought with you to Fall River the letter Mr. Borden sent to you, why? You didn't need to justify to Mr. Borden your visit to Fall River wih this letter, did you?

2. Mr. Sawyer testified that you remained "a few minutes" before you entered into the house. Is it true? If so, why? "A few minutes" are a very long time in such a circumstance, why didn't you enter the house immediately after having been told the tragic news?

3. Immiediately after having been told the news, did you ever think to ask anyone: how have they been murdered? has the murderer been caught? Oh what about Lizzie please, is she fine? Mr. Morse, did you think to ask all these questions?

4. As Mrs. Churchill testified, you said "what" when you have been told the news by her. But before that you have been told twice, by Bridget and Mr. Sawyer. So what did your "what" mean, please?

5. As Mrs. Churchill said, you hollered Lizzie's name as loud as you could, is this true? What did your hollering her name mean? Did you want to see your niece immediately? If so, Lizzie was indeed in the dinning room by which you passed through, why didn't you even notice, as you yourself testified, who were there?

6. You have allegedly said to have received a call after the murder, and then you have denied to have received it. What is the truth, please?

7. Mr. Morse, please tell us who informed you about the location of Mr. Borden's body.