New evidence

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New evidence

Post by snokkums »

:shock: :shock:
I was reading something on the net about there is new evidence that "could blow the lid" off the lizzie borden case.


It stated that the Borden's lawyer Andrew Jennings kept some evidence in his possession. The supposed murder weapon among other things. But it turns out that he also kept handwritten journals and these have been given to the Fall River historical Society.

Has anybody heard or read about this?
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Re: New evidence

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Hmmm, no, I haven't heard anything about this. Can you provide us with a link to the article you were reading?
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Re: New evidence

Post by snokkums »

If you Google lizzie Borden- New Evidence it will come up with some articles. On was New Lizzie Borden Evicence could Blow up 120 year old axe murder. Most of the rest of the articles have a variation of that title.
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Re: New evidence

Post by PattiG157 »

All,

Regarding the new evidence, I've read that all of Jennings' journals from the trial, including newspaper clippings he kept, have been handed over to the Fall River Historical Society for preservation. Once they've preserved the writings, they plan to release to the public what was in them. The items were turned over to the Society in 2012, so I predict we should hear something soon.

At least that's what I've read.

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Re: New evidence

Post by twinsrwe »

Is this the link you are talking about?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/lizzie-borden- ... d=15910141
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Re: New evidence

Post by Franz »

Thank you, twinsrwe, I read the link's article. will the journals be published?
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Re: New evidence

Post by snokkums »

Yes, that was one of them. There was a bunch of them.
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Re: New evidence

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Franz wrote:Thank you, twinsrwe, I read the link's article. will the journals be published?
You’re welcome Franz. I don’t know if the journals will be published or not; that is a question for the Fall River Historical Society to answer.
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Re: New evidence

Post by Harry »

Speaking of new evidence, this video put out by the Fall River Historical Society contains a finding in the Jennings' papers. It is about the position of Abby's body when first found. The finding confirms the long held suspicion by some of us that Abby tried to escape. That portion of the video is about 6:20 into it.

Well worth watching. A lot of the video is advertising for the FRHS but they do a tremendous job with the Borden material and deserve our support. Besides Michael and Dennis are great hosts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C77TckcWHlk
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Re: New evidence

Post by Franz »

Thank you Harry. I watched the video and many times those seconds concerning Abby's body (for me listenning English is more difficult than reading it). If I am not mistaken, her arms position was not mentioned. How about them?

If I understood well, I think that she tried to escape should not be the unique conclusion. I still think that she was probably looking for something near and under the bed. We have all this experience: in order to know if the object we are looking for is under the bed, we can put our body slightly under the bed to look well (if the height of bed permits us to do so).
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Re: New evidence

Post by PossumPie »

It's been known since the murders occurred that both bodies were moved to some degree by the doctor before any photos were taken. No conclusions about their peri-mortem position (around the time of death) should be inferred based solely on the pictures.
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Re: New evidence

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PossumPie wrote:It's been known since the murders occurred that both bodies were moved to some degree by the doctor before any photos were taken. No conclusions about their peri-mortem position (around the time of death) should be inferred based solely on the pictures.
This is interesting. I have always pictured Abby as being the victim of a "sneak attack" of some kind, in which she was either rendered unconscious, or killed outright, with the first blow.
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Re: New evidence

Post by Harry »

Here's Dr. Bowen's testimony:

At the Preliminary hearing, (p412-413)

"(Court) Doctor, let me understand. When you saw the body of Mrs. Borden, as I understand you, lying flat on the face, were her arms folded across the face?
A. They were.
(Court) Under her?
A. Yes Sir, they were.
(Court) She was laying on her arms?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) How long a look did you take at the body at that time?
A. The first time up there, I do not suppose it was more than a minute or two.
Q. Were you taking particular notice of the position of things at that time?
A. No Sir I was not, except herself, except the body.
Q. You were not looking at it as a physician would look at an ordinary case?
A. No Sir. I was satisfying myself she was dead.
Q. You were then, if you will pardon me for saying so, quite excited?
A. I was.
Q. You were very excited?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You looked at that thing, however, so to satisfy yourself she was dead?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The position was only incidental?
A. It was incidental, for I saw it several times after that, and took several parties up.
Q. Who was up there, and saw it in the same position that you saw it?
A. I cannot tell.
Q. Tell me anybody that saw it as you have described it.
A. I dont know."
Q. You have seen the witnesses that testified on the stand who saw it; can you tell me any of them who saw it, so I could see whether their memory coincided with you.
A. I am not positive.
Q. When was the last time you saw the body in that position, with the arms under it?
A. After Dr. Dolan came we turned the body over on the back---
Q. When was the last time you saw her with her arms under her, instead of over her head?
A. Before she was moved by the direction of Medical Examiner Dolan.
Q. When Dr. Dolan first came, her arms were in the same position as when you first saw her?
A. So far as I know.
Q. So far as you remember?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So when Dr. Dolan first came, the position he found her in was the position you first found her in?
A. So far as I remember.
Q. So far as you remember now?
A. So far as I remember. I did not intend to have her disturbed until the medical Examiner was there. I intended to notify him as soon as I could.
Q. So far as you can remember the position in which Dr. Dolan found her, was the same position in which you found her?
A. So far as I know."

At the Trial (p310):

"A. So far as I remember. I did not intend to have her disturbed until the medical Examiner was there. I intended to notify him as soon as I could.
Q. So far as you can remember the position in which Dr. Dolan found her, was the same position in which you found her?
A. So far as I know."

Trial (p317)

Q. How did she then lie?
A. She lay directly on her face with her hands under her.
Q. Are you able to tell us how the hands were at that time? If you can, won't you illustrate it?
A. Her hands were about that way. (Illustrating)
Q. She was lying on her face and her hands were under her in the manner you describe?
A. Yes, sir.

Trial (p318)

Q. Now do you recall---of course you knew her well, and knew she was a stout woman ---do you recall how much of that space between the bureau and the bed she filled up; whether she practically occupied, when lying on her face, the space between the bureau and the bed?
A. She filled it up very well, very thoroughly, very fully.
Q. And when you went to ascertain whether or not life was extinct, upon which side of her did you go?
A. On the right side, between the form and the bed.
Q. And were you able to get there easily, or did you have some difficulty on account of the narrowness of the space?
A. I had some difficulty on account of the space. I didn't wish to move the bed at all; I didn't wish to move anything."

Trial (p323)

Q. At that time was an examination made by either you or Dr. Dolan or both of Mrs. Borden?
A. No examination that required any---It was merely an observation at that time.
Q. Was the body interfered with?
A. Not at that time.
Q. Do you know whether it had been interfered with by anybody between the time when you were up there first and the time when you took Dr. Dolan there?
A. No, sir, not to my knowledge.
Q. Your answer is you don't think it had been interfered with?
A. No, sir.
Q. At any time shortly after Dr. Dolan came was the body raised up?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And by whom?
A. Dr. Dolan and myself and some assistant. I don't remember who the assistant was.
Q. And when it was placed back, do you think it was put back in exactly the position you found it when you went up there first?
A. Somewhat similar. I won't say exactly."

Wow, this a long post for me. Thank goodness for copy and paste.
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Re: New evidence

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Harry wrote: "(Court) Doctor, let me understand. When you saw the body of Mrs. Borden, as I understand you, lying flat on the face, were her arms folded across the face?
A. They were.
(Court) Under her?
A. Yes Sir, they were.
(Court) She was laying on her arms?
A. Yes Sir.
Harry, regarding this section of the testimony, do you infer that Abby was making a motion of self-defense when she died? In other words, trying to shield her face with her arms? Or could that just be the way she happened to fall, with her face coming to rest on her arms? The phrase "her arms folded across her face" makes it hard for me to visualize how the body looked when the doctor first saw her.

It seems to me that if Abby had thrown her arms up in front of her face to protect herself, she should have had some wounds on her arms. Unless, in her panic, she threw her arms up in a motion of self-defense, then quickly turned away from her attacker.
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Re: New evidence

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No, I'm not inferring that since there was no self defense wounds. I'm inclined to believe that the first blow didn't kill her. That goes against the medical testimony, but there is a lot we don't know. I don't remember the doctors determining the first blow. If the first blow was to the head causing the flap wound she would not have been killed and that gave her a chance to drop to the floor and attempt to get under the bed. 100% pure speculation but that's the purpose of this forum.

I just re-listened to the video and unless I heard wrong Dennis says the body was one foot under the bed. That would seem to me, IMHO, to say she was trying to flee. But there are a lot of problems with that scenario. The killer would have had to drag her out if he/she were to straddle the body and rain down blows. No easy task on a 200 pound woman. Could Lizzie have managed that?

Only Dr. Bowen could answer questions about her position. If this information came from Jennings' journal then he must have gotten the information from Dr. Bowen. But for some unknown reason Dr. Bowen was never questioned about it in the Trial, etc.

Kat, did a drawing a few years ago of what she considered Abby's arms position. I don't like speaking for her but what it was, if I remember right, is that if you put both hands on the top of your forehead and extend your elbows out a bit and lie flat. I'll probably talk with her today and see if I'm remotely correct.
Last edited by Harry on Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New evidence

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Harry wrote:No, I'm not inferring that since there was no self defense wounds. I'm inclined to believe that the first blow didn't kill her. That goes against the medical testimony, but there is a lot we don't know. I don't remember the doctors determining the first blow. If the first blow was to the head causing the flap wound she would not have been killed and that gave her a chance to drop to the floor and attempt to get under the bed. 100% pure speculation but that's the purpose of this forum.

I just re-listened to the video and unless I heard wrong Dennis says the body was one foot under the bed. That would seem to me, IMHO, to say she was trying to flee. But there are a lot of problems with that scenario. The killer would have had to drag her out if he/she were to straddle the body and reign down blows. No easy task on a 200 pound woman. Could Lizzie have managed that?

Only Dr. Bowen could answer questions about her position. If this information came from Jennings' journal then he must have gotten the information from Dr. Bowen. But for some unknown reason Dr. Bowen was never questioned about it in the Trial, etc.

Kat, did a drawing a few years ago of what she considered Abby's arms position. I don't like speaking for her but what it was, if I remember right, is that if you put both hands on the top of your forehead and extend your elbows out a bit and lie flat. I'll probably talk with her today and see if I'm remotely correct.
Thanks, Harry. Very interesting possibilities. I had always assumed that Abby was immobilized, either knocked out or killed outright, very quickly. I had never even considered the possibility that there was any sort of struggle, or that Abby had tried to escape, because no one had heard any noise. But of course, if Bridget were outside washing windows, or chatting with the Kelly maid at the time of the attack, that would only leave Lizzie to hear any noise. (Did I just make another argument in support of Lizzie's guilt?)

It's hard to imagine that Abby sought to protect herself by trying to get under the bed. She would have known that this would only offer momentary protection, and it seems that even if she did try to hide under the bed, she would be simultaneously screaming for help, or at least screaming in terror, which might have been heard by someone outside.

It seems more likely that Abby would have either tried to escape from the room altogether, or at least fought, and maybe tried to disarm her attacker. Of course, I have never suffered an attack by a person wielding a hatchet or meat cleaver, so it's hard to say what a person's reaction would be under those circumstances.
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Re: New evidence

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Jennings gave an interview to the Boston Globe on August 8th. He said:

“It may be said to be next to impossible for one to have entered the house unobserved, commit the murders, and make his escape without being seen. Criminal history shows that many more remarkable acts have been done by murderers.
“The audacity of the Jack the Ripper cases in London is an illustration. The Bell murder in Boston some years ago is another.
“It is not unreasonable to assume that the murderer entered either the front or rear door unseen by the neighbors or by the women on the premises. During the time Miss Lizzie was absent he had sufficient opportunity to kill both victims, and, if he chose, to leave the house

By the Basement Door

leading from the cellar to the rear yard.
“As a matter of fact I understand this door was found open immediately after the tragedy, and as it was always kept locked the question arises how and by whom was it opened on the fatal day?
"During my examination of the house I observed spots of blood under a window sill a considerable distance from where the body of Mrs. Borden was found. The location of the spots and the apparent angle at which they struck the wall make me believe that the blow first inflicted upon the murdered woman was the glancing cut on the side of the head which tore off so large a piece of flesh. If Mrs. Borden had been standing by the window looking out into the yard, and had been approached from behind by a person who struck the blow I have described, I think the spatters would have gone in the direction of those I saw.
"If Mrs. Borden had not become instantly unconscious she might have naturally turned half round, staggered with hands uplifted in self-defense and then have fallen, head down, in precisely the position in which she was found.
"Considering the position of the wounds upon the head, I do not believe they could have been inflicted on the spot where she was found and still had the blood spots under the window sill.
“This circumstance at a later date may be of importance. I do not believe the mystery will be easily solved, but if it is solved, depend on it the perpetrator of the crimes was insane when they were committed."

Sound familiar. I probably read it in the past but came to the same speculation myself.

Also the blow to the back which was found at the second autopsy could have been the first blow. I don't think that blow would have been fatal. The shape of that cut has always puzzled me.
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Re: New evidence

Post by Allen »

I have had one problem with the idea of the body of Abby being found under the bed. That bed frame sat kind of low to the ground, I'm wondering if Abby could even have fit under there?
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Re: New evidence

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Allen wrote:I have had one problem with the idea of the body of Abby being found under the bed. That bed frame sat kind of low to the ground, I'm wondering if Abby could even have fit under there?

I thought the same thing, Allen. I know that Abby was a heavy woman, and I don't see her even trying to get under the bed, unless it was just an act of unthinking panic.

By the way, Harry, thanks for reminding me that Abby suffered a cutting wound on her back. I re-read the autopsy report, and Dr. Dolan had report that the wound was two inches by two inches, and four inches below the neck. I had forgotten about that.
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Re: New evidence

Post by Harry »

That's a good point, Allen. What was the height of the bed?' Never seen any mention of it, only that you could see under it from the stairs. Click on the photo below for magnification.

I'm not sure if that "new evidence" is true at all but it's worth picking it apart. The only source is Dr. Bowen and he was hardly a good witness that morning. It would be great to see the actual entry in Jennings' journal and when he found out about it.
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Re: New evidence

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Harry wrote:That's a good point, Allen. What was the height of the bed?' Never seen any mention of it, only that you could see under it from the stairs. Click on the photo below for magnification.

I'm not sure if that "new evidence" is true at all but it's worth picking it apart. The only source is Dr. Bowen and he was hardly a good witness that morning. It would be great to see the actual entry in Jennings' journal and when he found out about it.

It's a little difficult to judge from the photo, Harry, but I would say that a person trying to hide under that bed would need to be pretty slim. But like I said before, in a life and death panic situation, who knows what any of us would do. I'm sure that at the moment she was being attacked, Abby didn't really have time to wonder if she would fit under the bed. It may have just been her automatic impulse to try.
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Re: New evidence

Post by Harry »

BTW, that photo is a modern one and not the same 1892 bed.

When at the house I tried the experiment of trying to see under the bed from the stairs. A person climbing the stairs at a normal gait, watching their step, would easily miss that view. You have to stop at the exact point for your height.

However, I can see Bridget and Mrs. Churchill very slowly climbing the stairs and peeking over the landing when they reached it. Since the rooms had not been searched yet the killer may still have been in the house.
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Re: New evidence

Post by Franz »

Harry wrote:...
The only source is Dr. Bowen and he was hardly a good witness that morning...
I agree. His testimony is full of confusion, this is my impression while reading it.
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Re: New evidence

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Harry wrote:BTW, that photo is a modern one and not the same 1892 bed.

When at the house I tried the experiment of trying to see under the bed from the stairs. A person climbing the stairs at a normal gait, watching their step, would easily miss that view. You have to stop at the exact point for your height.

However, I can see Bridget and Mrs. Churchill very slowly climbing the stairs and peeking over the landing when they reached it. Since the rooms had not been searched yet the killer may still have been in the house.

Good point, Harry. I'm sure a person just walking routinely up the stairs would not notice anything.

Do you know if the bed is a replica of the original, or at least similar?
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Re: New evidence

Post by PattiG157 »

Darrowfan, when I toured the house (in '07 or '08) the first thing they mentioned was that all of the furniture are exact replicas of the furniture in the home on that fateful day. I took that to mean that the bed in the guest room (where Mrs. Borden was found) is the same size and height of the bed that was there on August 4, 1892.

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Re: New evidence

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PattiG157 wrote:All,

Regarding the new evidence, I've read that all of Jennings' journals from the trial, including newspaper clippings he kept, have been handed over to the Fall River Historical Society for preservation. Once they've preserved the writings, they plan to release to the public what was in them. The items were turned over to the Society in 2012, so I predict we should hear something soon.

At least that's what I've read.

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Re: New evidence

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PattiG157 wrote:All,

Regarding the new evidence, I've read that all of Jennings' journals from the trial, including newspaper clippings he kept, have been handed over to the Fall River Historical Society for preservation. Once they've preserved the writings, they plan to release to the public what was in them. The items were turned over to the Society in 2012, so I predict we should hear something soon.

At least that's what I've read.

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Re: New evidence

Post by snokkums »

Opps!! sorry double post sorry.
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Re: New evidence

Post by PossumPie »

I tend to think the first blow rendered her unconscious/dead. If not, she surely would have let out a piercing scream. The killer would have known that and would have put that first blow where it counted. The back blow you mention puzzles me, as do the 4 on her face above her eyebrows and on her cheek. There would have to have been a moment where she faced her attacker. As I've said before, I don't put too much weight on any given testimony, photo, or idea b/c as was said above, the bed isn't the same one. I also agree that walking casually upstairs one wouldn't tend to look carefully through the bannister, into the room, and under the bed.
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Re: New evidence

Post by Aamartin »

Good point Possum Pie-- but id the theory that Abby ran from her killer and may have tried to crawl under the bed is true -- did she scream when she saw him/her? Surely anyone inside the house would have heard that!
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Re: New evidence

Post by PossumPie »

Aamartin wrote:Good point Possum Pie-- but id the theory that Abby ran from her killer and may have tried to crawl under the bed is true -- did she scream when she saw him/her? Surely anyone inside the house would have heard that!
True. I'm fairly certain that if someone hit me on the face or back with a hatchet, I'd scream...LOUDLY! The neighbors in the next block would hear me, I'm not ashamed to say.
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Re: New evidence

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PossumPie wrote:I tend to think the first blow rendered her unconscious/dead. If not, she surely would have let out a piercing scream. The killer would have known that and would have put that first blow where it counted. The back blow you mention puzzles me, as do the 4 on her face above her eyebrows and on her cheek. There would have to have been a moment where she faced her attacker. As I've said before, I don't put too much weight on any given testimony, photo, or idea b/c as was said above, the bed isn't the same one. I also agree that walking casually upstairs one wouldn't tend to look carefully through the bannister, into the room, and under the bed.
I think you are right that the first blow was the one that killed her. I don't she had time to scream. Whom ever killed her made that first blow count. I think the rest of the blows were to make sure she was dead. It definitely was overkill though.
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Re: New evidence

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snokkums wrote:
PossumPie wrote:I tend to think the first blow rendered her unconscious/dead. If not, she surely would have let out a piercing scream. The killer would have known that and would have put that first blow where it counted. The back blow you mention puzzles me, as do the 4 on her face above her eyebrows and on her cheek. There would have to have been a moment where she faced her attacker. As I've said before, I don't put too much weight on any given testimony, photo, or idea b/c as was said above, the bed isn't the same one. I also agree that walking casually upstairs one wouldn't tend to look carefully through the bannister, into the room, and under the bed.
I think you are right that the first blow was the one that killed her. I don't she had time to scream. Whom ever killed her made that first blow count. I think the rest of the blows were to make sure she was dead. It definitely was overkill though.
True...LOL how ironic your avitar is "The Scream"
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Re: New evidence

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LOL!! I didn't think about that. Kinda cool, huh!
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Re: New evidence

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Harry asked me if I'd like to contribute some info here, on this topic.
I'd like to upload 6 items, which will take me a while- it's been a long time!

I want to show that the piece of carpet that was cut out as evidence extended under the bed.
I was able to draw the section by examining the floorplan at the FRHS, when Harry and I were there. The dotted lines were in chalk on an actual floorplan, and extend under the bureau as well.
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Re: New evidence

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Here is my drawing of the chalked lines that had designated the carpet area that was removed.
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Re: New evidence

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Please remember there were 2 chairs in the area of Abby's attack. Here is a fakefoto designed by me to at least attempt to show those in their original positions.
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Re: New evidence

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Doherty was there pretty early on- around 11:35 and he moved the bed to get at Abby's body. However, I've had a time trying to decide which way he moved it, because his use of north/south/east/west is a bit confusing.
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Re: New evidence

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Sorry to inundate you with all this material at once. Please excuse!

This is my drawing Harry referred to, as to where Abby's arms were positioned when she was seen by Dr. Dolan.
Please remember that Dr Bowen came, saw Andrew, and left. He had not a lot of time to move Abby much, upon his return- he really was more concerned about Andrew, I believe.
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Re: New evidence

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Another thing I'd like to add... It is Jenning's note on the back of page 115 in the Preliminary Hearing. The one word I circled, I can't quite make out and it is about Abby's hands.

"hands were extended ____ her head" (??)
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Re: New evidence

Post by Aamartin »

Poor Abby........ The killer robbed both her and Andrew of their dignity for all time.
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Re: New evidence

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Kat wrote:Another thing I'd like to add... It is Jenning's note on the back of page 115 in the Preliminary Hearing. The one word I circled, I can't quite make out and it is about Abby's hands.

"hands were extended ____ her head" (??)
Kat, as an RN I am used to reading sloppy Dr. Handwriting. I am 85% sure the circled word is "over" At first I thought it was "ant" short for anterior...meaning that lying down the hands would have been anterior to the head or underneath it in that position, but There is no crossing of the "t" so I am thinking it is "over" Over is not a medical term b/c it is relative. "Superior" means above. If I say put your hands "over" your eyes, that could mean 'superior' to them (on your forehead) or 'anterior' to them meaning covering them. The confusion would be gone if he hadn't used the word 'over'. In the testimony, the dr. was asked if the hands where 'over' the head. That was a poor choice of word b/c it could have meant covering the back of her head (over with respect to the floor/ceiling) or above the top of her head on the rug (superior to her head). Yikes! Stick to the medical terms. They can't be confused.

Superior- closer to the top of the head,
Inferior- closer to the feet,
Anterior- towards the front of the person
Posterior- towards the back of the person
Medial- towards the center line of the body, between the eyes/nose/breasts/bellybutton.
Lateral- towards the outside edge away from center-line of body
Proximal- close to where the body part connects to the body (ie shoulder joint)
Distal- farther away from where the part connects to the rest of the body (ie the wrist is distal to the elbow, the fingernail is distal to the wrist)

These are the same no matter what position the body is in, that is why a Doctor will use them instead of 'above' below' 'over' or 'under'
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Re: New evidence

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The concept that her hands/arms were superior to the top of her head, or slightly anterior (between her face and the rug) seems to point to an attempt to break her fall or protect her face which points to consciousness during the initial moments. This seems to contradict the fact that no scream was heard. I have assumed that the first blow rendered her unconscious b/c there was no scream heard. A person struck to the brain with sufficient force to kill/render unconscious immediately would fall with no arms protecting the head. Hmmm... I love this case. So much to ponder!
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Re: New evidence

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PossumPie wrote:The concept that her hands/arms were superior to the top of her head, or slightly anterior (between her face and the rug) seems to point to an attempt to break her fall or protect her face which points to consciousness during the initial moments. This seems to contradict the fact that no scream was heard. I have assumed that the first blow rendered her unconscious b/c there was no scream heard. A person struck to the brain with sufficient force to kill/render unconscious immediately would fall with no arms protecting the head. Hmmm... I love this case. So much to ponder!
To me, the fact that no scream was heard indicates that the killer struck quickly, allowing as little noise as possible, thus leading me to believe that Abby died without making a sound, other than her body hitting the floor. Of course, the problem with that is that it contradicts the idea of the killer being in some sort of psychotic rage.

How could the murderer perform such a violent, seemingly frenzied attack, and yet take care to keep the noise down? The same question arises in the killing of Andrew. Bridget was upstairs in her room, and by her own testimony, was not asleep. And yet, she did not hear Andrew cry out, or hear the signs of any sort of scuffle (interestingly, she did hear the town clock strike 11). Again, the killer struck quickly, but landed many vicious blows, and still managed to keep the process quiet.

As Possum said above, so much to ponder.
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Re: New evidence

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Kat wrote:Harry asked me if I'd like to contribute some info here, on this topic.
I'd like to upload 6 items, which will take me a while- it's been a long time!

I want to show that the piece of carpet that was cut out as evidence extended under the bed.
I was able to draw the section by examining the floorplan at the FRHS, when Harry and I were there. The dotted lines were in chalk on an actual floorplan, and extend under the bureau as well.
Oh my God! Kat, where have you been these years? Very happy to read you.
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Re: New evidence

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Franz wrote:Oh my God! Kat, where have you been these years? Very happy to read you.
Kat is one, if not THE most knowledgeable people I know about the Borden murders. Hopefully her work schedule will enable her to participate on a more regular basis.

Welcome back, Kat! :cheers:
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Re: New evidence

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You all know that I HATE to admit this....but Franz's idea that she was already stooping leaning forward would account for not seeing the attacker, and not flopping on the floor...she WAS a large woman. DON'T get excited, I don't buy any or the rest of Franz's theory, BUT she could have been bending over to tuck in a sheet or grab a dust bunny.
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Re: New evidence

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PossumPie wrote:You all know that I HATE to admit this....but Franz's idea that she was already stooping leaning forward would account for not seeing the attacker, and not flopping on the floor...she WAS a large woman. DON'T get excited, I don't buy any or the rest of Franz's theory, BUT she could have been bending over to tuck in a sheet or grab a dust bunny.

Actually, Possum, I had always assumed that she was doing something that required her to bend or stoop next to the bed, and that she was in that position when first struck.
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Re: New evidence

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Thanks you guys!

In the Preliminary Hearing, Dr. Dolan specifies that in his opinion the first wound to Abby was delivered while she was standing, facing the assailant.

144+
Q. What of these wounds on the head, in your opinion, if any of them, were given while the person were standing up?
A. I would say the glancing scalp wound, which I spoke of, on the left side, that did not mark the skull; that flap drew right back.
Q. Now you tell us of a glancing scalp wound on the left side of the head over the left ear?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You think that wound might have been given under what circumstances?
A. While standing up, and facing.
Q. That was not necessarily fatal?
A. No Sir.
Q. What were the dimensions of that wound?
A. I think one and a half by two inches.
Q. An inch and a half wide, and two inches running from front to back?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did it cut the flesh entirely off?
A. No Sir.
Q. If there was any supporting hinge, where was that?
A. At the rear.
Q. Exactly in the back, or toward the bottom?
A. More towards the bottom; I think it was about medium. I would not say positively whether it was towards the bottom or above; I think about the middle.
Q. Was this hinge practically the entire width of the wound?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So the flesh would fly back, like that?
A. Yes Sir, a flapping wound.

Page 145

Q. Now you were describing, in answer to my question, the wounds that she might have received when standing up; is there any other wound that you think of?
A. I do not think so, sir.
Q. In your opinion were all the other wounds given when the person was lying down, prone on the floor? Could they be?
A. Yes Sir, they could be.
Q. In your opinion, from what you saw, were they so given?
A. Yes Sir.


There's a difficulty I'm having with the video story that Harry offered us from the FRHS. In it, it's inferred (?) that the handle-less hatchet head was found with a hair attached to it; and then it is remarked as being a cow hair. Did other's get the same impression?

The handless-hatchet only had ashes on it, which seemed dissimilar to the normal dust accumulating in that cellar.

The Claw-head hatchet is the one from the chopping block- that was the hatchet that had the hair, and also had cotton fibers! In fact, this weapon was so suspicious at the time of the first searches that it was hidden for further perusal; and was the weapon-of-choice throughout the preliminary hearing!
We don't know why it was lost in the background during trial preparations- and we don't know what eventually happened to it.

See Prelim, Ed Wood, pages 370+
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Re: New evidence

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Kat wrote:Thanks you guys!

In the Preliminary Hearing, Dr. Dolan specifies that in his opinion the first wound to Abby was delivered while she was standing, facing the assailant.

144+
Q. What of these wounds on the head, in your opinion, if any of them, were given while the person were standing up?
A. I would say the glancing scalp wound, which I spoke of, on the left side, that did not mark the skull; that flap drew right back.
Q. Now you tell us of a glancing scalp wound on the left side of the head over the left ear?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You think that wound might have been given under what circumstances?
A. While standing up, and facing.
Q. That was not necessarily fatal?
A. No Sir.
Q. What were the dimensions of that wound?
A. I think one and a half by two inches.
Q. An inch and a half wide, and two inches running from front to back?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did it cut the flesh entirely off?
A. No Sir.
Q. If there was any supporting hinge, where was that?
A. At the rear.
Q. Exactly in the back, or toward the bottom?
A. More towards the bottom; I think it was about medium. I would not say positively whether it was towards the bottom or above; I think about the middle.
Q. Was this hinge practically the entire width of the wound?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So the flesh would fly back, like that?
A. Yes Sir, a flapping wound.

Page 145

Q. Now you were describing, in answer to my question, the wounds that she might have received when standing up; is there any other wound that you think of?
A. I do not think so, sir.
Q. In your opinion were all the other wounds given when the person was lying down, prone on the floor? Could they be?
A. Yes Sir, they could be.
Q. In your opinion, from what you saw, were they so given?
A. Yes Sir.


There's a difficulty I'm having with the video story that Harry offered us from the FRHS. In it, it's inferred (?) that the handle-less hatchet head was found with a hair attached to it; and then it is remarked as being a cow hair. Did other's get the same impression?

The handless-hatchet only had ashes on it, which seemed dissimilar to the normal dust accumulating in that cellar.

The Claw-head hatchet is the one from the chopping block- that was the hatchet that had the hair, and also had cotton fibers! In fact, this weapon was so suspicious at the time of the first searches that it was hidden for further perusal; and was the weapon-of-choice throughout the preliminary hearing!
We don't know why it was lost in the background during trial preparations- and we don't know what eventually happened to it.

See Prelim, Ed Wood, pages 370+
If so, should I speculate that when the killer gave the first blow, he was being between Abby and the east wall? And gave all other blows from that position? did I understand well?
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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