Lizzie's Dresses

This the place to have frank, but cordial, discussions of the Lizzie Borden case

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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by debbiediablo »

• Perhaps it's not a matter of listening; maybe no one gives a damn whether you talked with Allen outside this forum.
• What I have learned from you (not Allen) is that if I ever leave I'm not going to have a narcissistic tantrum in the process.
• The easiest way to cancel your own membership is to log off and stay off.

• For everyone else: let her have the last word. Her ego demands that she have the last word. Likely it will also demand that she come back under another name or as 'guest' to read what else might be written about her. *blocking FactFinder now*
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Catbooks »

my last post on this.

you're perfectly right, debbie. she can have the last word. i imagine you're correct about signing back under another name or as guest. i'll block now as well. this has taken up too much otherwise good time and energy.
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

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Apparently the flounce is complete. May I suggest that we change the subject to something more cheerful, like corpses and slop pails? :)
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Curryong »

Yes, a discussion, just before I have my breakfast here, on pears lying in vomit and poo will do me the world of good!
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

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Lol....everybody.
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Curryong »

This isn't a question about Lizzie's clothing but Andrew's. Has anybody found out what happened ultimately to the famed Prince Albert? Was it buried with the other bloodied clothing and not listed? Possible but hardly likely. Anyway, if it had been it would surely have been dis-interred like some of the other pieces were later.
Was it delivered into the prosecution's hands before the trial, but then not listed and was forgotten about, rather like John Morse's last letter from Andrew that he would liked to have had returned but was never heard of again.
Is it possible that, for sentimental reasons, the Borden sisters decided to have Daddy buried in his Prince Albert? A quick trip to the local dry cleaners and all that unfortunate blood would be gone. There is, after all, nothing like having your father buried in a coat that would bring back so many memories!
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

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Curryong wrote:There is, after all, nothing like having your father buried in a coat that would bring back so many memories!
You are a deeply sick woman. I love that about you. ;)
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Curryong »

So many have said that very thing before you!
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by NancyDrew »

My God, what the heck happened? I took a few days off and all hell broke loose!

I have some very definite opinions about WHO FactFinder is, but I'm going to keep them to myself.

This is not the place to come and bash other people. Nor is it a scholarly site. My Goodness...I didn't know I was going to get flamed for saying "I'm too lazy to look up the source documents right now" I made it quite clear that I didn't expect ANYONE to do the work FOR me, but rather I said "if anyone happens to know it easily, please post, thank you."

Manners go a long way with me. So do being gracious and polite. The "rant" FF wrote is completely inappropriate and immature. The proper thing to do would be to simply leave the Forum if it didn't suit her. Someone who tells anonymous posters on an internet message forums to take their "head out of their behinds" has a problem with understanding how to behave and get along with others. There will be many instances in her life where she will feel smarter or more knowledgeable than others. That does not grant automatic license to be insulting and condescending.

I used to teach high school, and this type of behavior on the part of a 16 year old would necessitate detention, and a gentle but stern talk about social graces. It's big world, Fact Finder (because I am 100% positive you are reading all these posts) and frustration tolerance is an important skill to develop, in my opinion.

BTW, Yooper was hardly an expert on the case. He stopped posting after he wrote a post saying he'd like to physically assault Franz. I'M THE ONE who wrote to the administrator and complained about this. Oui, c'était moi! En outre, je ne suis pas désolé. (I'm not sorry.) I assumed his membership had been revoked.

Okay...I know there was a call for the ending to this unpleasantness, but I wanted to put my 2 cents in. And, FWIW, I will endeavor to cite sources myself from now on.

Regarding Lizzie's dresses: she certainly liked blue! And regarding pants, I have a photograph of my paternal grandmother from 1936 in which she is sporting long white pants. They are wide-legged; what we called "palazzo trousers" in the 1960's and 1970's. She was a rather tall woman, and they looked attractive on her.

I sew, and although not impossible, it is difficult to design wide leg pants for a very short women; there isn't enough length for the gradual tapering flare which makes them so pleasing to the eye. I'm barely 5 foot 2 inches tall, and in palazzo pants, my legs look like tree stumps.

I must dash off to work, however, I will be back tonight. I'm interested in two letters, the existence of which I had not known. They are discussed in this article: http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-fr ... ref=slogin.

I'll find the appropriate thread in which to discuss them.

Also, I'd like to THANK the members on here who more or less vouched for folks such as myself. I confess to using Google, offering personal opinions vs. cold hard facts, and engaging in flights of fancy at times. This forum has provided me with endless hours of enjoyment, and I'm glad that my less-than-perfect posts are welcomed. I apologize if my behavior has ever been inappropriate.
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by PossumPie »

We love you Nancy Drew!
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Catbooks »

Curryong wrote:This isn't a question about Lizzie's clothing but Andrew's. Has anybody found out what happened ultimately to the famed Prince Albert? Was it buried with the other bloodied clothing and not listed? Possible but hardly likely. Anyway, if it had been it would surely have been dis-interred like some of the other pieces were later.
Was it delivered into the prosecution's hands before the trial, but then not listed and was forgotten about, rather like John Morse's last letter from Andrew that he would liked to have had returned but was never heard of again.
Is it possible that, for sentimental reasons, the Borden sisters decided to have Daddy buried in his Prince Albert? A quick trip to the local dry cleaners and all that unfortunate blood would be gone. There is, after all, nothing like having your father buried in a coat that would bring back so many memories!
you are a riot :grin:

i found it strange that the only items of andrews listed that were buried were his truss, necktie, and perhaps a bit of braiding (could have been abby's, who knows), while it looked that all of abby's clothing was listed and buried. i'd think at least his prince albert would have been mentioned! the prosecution thought it was of note, so i'd think it would have been in the possession of the police. but i have nothing to cite saying so. there may be something and i haven't come across it yet. if anyone knows, i'd like to know, and what happened to the rest of andrew's clothing.

nancydrew, i noticed factfinder singled you out and flamed you. good grief, there's nothing wrong with any of those things. people here have done all of them from time to time. basically she flamed everyone here. i have no idea who she might be, but i missed a lot between visits.

anyway, i'm glad the unpleasantness is over now. i too value your posts. everyone's, really. including factfinder's until a few days ago.
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Mara »

There are trolls on message boards. They behave exactly as FactFinder did. Almost every aspect of her presence here was calculated to irritate, including the poor grammar that was so at odds with her demand for greater academic rigor (mortis?) and the repetition of irrelevant observations about the handful of "learned" ex-posters she had catalogued. I'm sure that NancyDrew is correct in her assumption that FF is reading these posts. She continues to earn her blue roadster and flame-colored party frock. I will plant larkspur in my garden this year in her honor ;)

Where did the rest of Andrew's habiliment go? Interesting thought. If these items were not kept with other "souvenirs" of the trial in that washtub where the bedspread was stashed, maybe someone connected with case or family, and owning a macabre sense of recycling, helped himself to some free duds. Might even have been John Morse. But I'm sure news of such a thing would have gotten out. I suspect they are in the possession of that law firm that is clamping down on notes and other things associated with Lizzie's defense. Does anyone at the FRHS have a clue?
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by NancyDrew »

BTW, I didn't know I was flamed, except for the "lazy" insult, I thought FactFinder was fixating on beach pants.; really freaking out about them, and then had her meltdown. I feel badly for people that live in a state of indignation. It's a powerful but ugly. She is obviously someone with a lot of issues; life is too short to get yourself worked up over a website about a 120 year old murder mystery. I'll reserve that energy for when it is really needed; if it is ever needed (no one gets out alive here, but some have a bumpier journey than others :color:
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by debbiediablo »

Jim Morrison?..:-)
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Catbooks »

yes, mostly the 'lazy' remark, not locating the information yourself. but, come on, i don't see any problem with occasionally wanting to discuss a point and not recalling where the specific information is, and so asking here, because chances are good someone will know.

she was fixating on the beach pants, and it appeared that was the tipping point leading to the double flounce.

but she also flamed the entire forum.

it is an awfully hard row to hoe when one lives in a state of such ready agitation, i give you that.
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by NancyDrew »

Deb,

"nobody gets out alive" sure sounds like Jim Morrison, but I made up the rest of the sentence myself.
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Curryong »

:grin: :grin: :grin: FactFinder must have been reading different earlier posts than I was before I joined up. There were several members who speculated, others who had information at their fingertips and quoted it, some who went off on tangents, a mix in fact, just like now.
I think FactFinder had files and a large library on Lizzie, and forgot that others, especially those quite new to the case, don't have those advantages. I, for instance, would absolutely love to own both 'Parallel Lives' and 'Lizzie Borden:Past and Present,' but the prices, plus shipping costs, mean I have to wait for a while.
Anyway, FactFinder (and her three friends) are no doubt setting up a rival Lizzie site for themselves, and good luck to them. So long as she doesn't come back here in another 'form' in a few months time, who cares!
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Mara »

Thanks for that link, Miss Nancy. I'll have to wait until tomorrow to check it out. Tonight, tax returns. Ugh.
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Curryong »

Do you do your tax returns in March in the U.S.? In Australia it is the end of June. When I was in Britain it was the end of March, which I understood was for historical reasons. Lady Day, a day for signing contracts and paying bills, was a Quarter Day and falls toward the end of March. The Legal Calendar started on that day, so I suppose they thought it useful!
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by debbiediablo »

They're due on April 15 for the most part. Different rules for corporations that operate on a defined fiscal year and the self-employed who pay in quarterly on their estimated taxes. This is entirely my husband's domain.
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Curryong »

Thanks, debbie. We also have special arrangements for the self-employed in the form of quarterly BAS statements, and heaven help you if you're late!
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

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I wasn’t going to submit a post regarding the members we have lost, but I’ve changed my mind. Allen and mbhenty were long term members, which was not the case with FactFinder. Allen had been a member for a little over 9 years and mbhenty was a member for almost 8 years. FactFinder, on the other hand, was a member for 36 days! I find it incredible that she was very disappointed and frustrated in that short amount of time.

One thing I found interesting is that FactFinder claimed she had been around during the RayS years. RayS joined the forum in December of 2005, that’s over 8 years ago. If FactFinder was indeed around for that length of time, then she knew exactly what she was getting herself into by becoming a member. In her post dated, Feb 09, 2014 9:26 pm, she stated: I had been already frustrated before I even talked myself into joining after seeing some of what goes on here. Well, if she was already frustrated with this forum, then why in the world did she decide to become a member?

As Stefani stated, there are a number of reasons members decide to stop posting. When a member stops posting it is a great loss; sometimes they return, sometimes they don’t. However, it is very disturbing when a member request their membership be removed. The member who came as a total surprise to me was when mbhenty requested that his membership be removed. Allen, on the other hand, was not a surprise, since she expressed her frustrations. The thing I don’t understand is the fact that she continued to post several times after doing so. FactFinder copied Allen’s exit. She submitted 5 posts after her initial post of saying she was out. I don’t get it, if a member is frustrated to the point of considering the removal of their membership, then why not simply stop replying to the threads or members that are the source of frustration. As Stefani has stressed time and time again, ignore them. It is a shame that mbhenty and Allen had their memberships removed; they both had extremely valuable information to share. I greatly miss both of them.
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by debbiediablo »

I noticed, too, that for being a member of such short term FactFinder had a lot of knowledge of people and posts of the past plus a particular predilection for Allen. (How's that for alliteration?...:-) This forum is sort of like a one-room school where grades K-12 and maybe even undergrad and grad courses are offered in the same environment, and everyone is exposed to everything. I'm guessing there's a level of frustration for some people, especially over almost a decade, to watch 'new' information be discovered for the 343rd time or to watch people offer theories that have no rational basis in fact. In a place like this the best skill anyone can have (and this includes knowing every Lizzie fact evah!) is to be able to agree to disagree.
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Catbooks »

well, i've been reading this forum for at least as long as factfinder said she had. although, somehow i missed rays, until the week i was waiting for my account to be sorted out, and had been reading lots of old threads. (not sorry about having missed rays, judging by the posts i did read! good grief, talk about rude.)

but yeah, why join now, if one already has a good sense of the forum, and then get so bent out of shape and apparently disappointed, you flounce off in a great big huff? i don't know.

i've always liked allen myself, from having read her posts over the years, along with a number of other members who aren't here any longer. i don't recall mbhenty, except from reading old threads recently. maybe he was most active during the rays period, at a time when i wasn't visiting, or i just don't recall the name. i do remember kat, fallriverguy (or was it newbedfordguy?). no doubt a number of others i've forgotten.

twins, to be fair, i'm the one who posted (the beginning of) allen's parting post. i hadn't realized allen had left until factfinder mentioned it. i'd seen allen posting in threads on page one, in december, figured she'd just taken a break for some reason and would be back. then i ran a search on allen's posts to see why she'd left, and found that one. i did notice she'd posted a few times after her farewell post. i posted it because i thought there were a few things in there factfinder might learn from, relating to factfinder's unpleasant posts about the forum.

it is like a one-room schoolhouse! i've always kind of liked that aspect of it, though. mostly what i observed over the years *was* people being very friendly, and polite even when disagreeing. i don't think i'd have finally joined otherwise.
In a place like this the best skill anyone can have (and this includes knowing every Lizzie fact evah!) is to be able to agree to disagree.
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Curryong »

I too liked Allen's posts, Catbooks. I think she was a loss to this Forum as she was extremely knowledgable. I did notice though that a couple of other members (who also no longer post) did seem to find her a bit dogmatic in her views and told her so, in subtle and not so subtle fashion on occasion. I guess she just got tired of it. Harry, a member from way back, was also a fount of information, and FairhavenGuy had a lot of local knowledge. It's sad that some of these earlier members are no longer posting. I don't know much about rayS, other than he offended people a lot!
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Catbooks »

fairhavenguy, d'oh, that was his name! yes, i love his local knowledge. any of the posters who lived in the area, it was fun to see photos they posted and so on.

i didn't realize some members found allen's posts a bit dogmatic. i guess if you've been a member of this forum, discussing and researching it for a very long time, it could get tiresome, personalities causing friction between one another. sort of like a family, in ways.

as debbie said, there's only so much that can be discussed without repeating over and over. unfortunately we have the same info to sift through and sift through yet again.

i didn't know the jennings 'hip bath' material hadn't already been released, so i thank you for that. i wonder what the hold-up is? march of 2012 is nearly 2 years ago. maybe there's nothing new in that either.

harry, yes, i remember him. i liked him. also edesto (sp?) although i only came across him within the past week or more now, looking through old threads.

i guess some people finally burn out, others leave for any number of other reasons, and some only post a few times. all i know is i like it here and am glad i finally registered and worked up my nerve to make that first (and second) post.
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Curryong »

So am I!
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

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Catbooks wrote:well, i've been reading this forum for at least as long as factfinder said she had. although, somehow i missed rays, until the week i was waiting for my account to be sorted out, and had been reading lots of old threads. (not sorry about having missed rays, judging by the posts i did read! good grief, talk about rude.) …
Yes, RayS was something else. Although, he and I ‘butted’ heads a couple times, I have to admit that in a way, I miss him. He sure kept the forum active with his never ending Brown opinions. I agree with Stefani, he was one extremely frustrating member!
Catbooks wrote:… i don't recall mbhenty, except from reading old threads recently. maybe he was most active during the rays period, at a time when i wasn't visiting, or i just don't recall the name. …
I enjoyed mbhenty’s reports of the goings on at Maplecroft, even when he was outraged by the changes Bob Dube made to Maplecroft. Mbhenty grew up in Fall River and lives in a house next door to Maplecroft.
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Catbooks »

twinsrwe wrote:
Catbooks wrote:well, i've been reading this forum for at least as long as factfinder said she had. although, somehow i missed rays, until the week i was waiting for my account to be sorted out, and had been reading lots of old threads. (not sorry about having missed rays, judging by the posts i did read! good grief, talk about rude.) …
Yes, RayS was something else. Although, he and I ‘butted’ heads a couple times, I have to admit that in a way, I miss him. He sure kept the forum active with his never ending Brown opinions. I agree with Stefani, he was one extremely frustrating member!
Catbooks wrote:… i don't recall mbhenty, except from reading old threads recently. maybe he was most active during the rays period, at a time when i wasn't visiting, or i just don't recall the name. …
I enjoyed mbhenty’s reports of the goings on at Maplecroft, even when he was outraged by the changes Bob Dube made to Maplecroft. Mbhenty grew up in Fall River and lives in a house next door to Maplecroft.
i was surprised when i came across rays's posts. the vast majority of the people's posts i'd read here, people were very polite, friendly, maybe occasionally annoyed, but never rude. so when i read the first few of his, whoa! :shock: terminally grumpy.

just found another thread of mbhenty's tonight, filled with amazing photos of the beautiful old houses in the area, most of the ones on this thread had mansard roofs. what a treat for me to see those photos! i'd read with great interest he lives in the house next door to maplecroft, and found a thread where he'd deleted a whole lot of his posts that i supposed were rants about the changes made to the house. in ways i understand how he feels. i'm a preservationist at heart and hate seeing beautiful old houses torn down or remodeled.

i didn't know he grew up in fall river. that explains why he knows so much about the area, and is so passionate about it. i wish he'd come back.
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Curryong »

dubiousmike must have been Mr Dube's son. Remember he posted that Emma's room was the smallest of the lot, etc and that he used to live at Maplecroft with his family?
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by PossumPie »

I believe that some people just tire of Lizzie Borden. I myself get "obsessed" over things, and research them for a while, then move on. Perhaps that is some of what happened. Some people butt heads with another member and say, it isn't worth the frustration. Some take a mini vacation from the forum and come back. Some seem not to understand that many of us actually like a polite argument. I don't want a forum where everyone agrees. I LOVE arguing with my father about different things, especially controversial topics. We love each other, and enjoy the polite arguments.
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by debbiediablo »

I'll be done when and if I've come to a satisfactory conclusion in my own mind. Right now my only working theory is that Lizzie did it. Everything else is subject to change at any moment...:-)
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by twinsrwe »

Catbooks wrote:… i was surprised when i came across rays's posts. the vast majority of the people's posts i'd read here, people were very polite, friendly, maybe occasionally annoyed, but never rude. so when i read the first few of his, whoa! :shock: terminally grumpy. …
RayS was convinced that Billy Borden murdered Abby and Andrew. Therefore, he was forever throwing Arnold Brown’s theory at us, and when a member would disagreed with him, then look out!

Have you read the book, Lizzie Borden The Legend, The Truth, The Final Chapter, By Arnold R. Brown?

Following is a film is an overview of Arnold Brown’s theory and book, which was edited by Stefani Kooray. Mr. Brown published his book as a ‘nonfiction’ account of the Borden murders. Unfortunately, there is no evidence, whatsoever, to support his theory. Check it out…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjPheZblQL4


RayS submitted a 5 topics regarding the Proof for Arnold Brown’s Theory. These links will give you a better understanding of the frustration forum members encounter with RayS.

viewtopic.php?t=2205

viewtopic.php?t=2242

viewtopic.php?t=2384

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2462&start=50

viewtopic.php?t=2525


If you are interested, I submitted an updated version of the ‘Blister Beetle Poisoning’ in this topic: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3162

Catbooks wrote:… just found another thread of mbhenty's tonight, filled with amazing photos of the beautiful old houses in the area, most of the ones on this thread had mansard roofs. what a treat for me to see those photos! i'd read with great interest he lives in the house next door to maplecroft, and found a thread where he'd deleted a whole lot of his posts that i supposed were rants about the changes made to the house. in ways i understand how he feels. i'm a preservationist at heart and hate seeing beautiful old houses torn down or remodeled.

i didn't know he grew up in fall river. that explains why he knows so much about the area, and is so passionate about it. i wish he'd come back.
Yes, mbhenty submitted some awesome photos and information on Maplecroft. Now you know why I miss him. I also wish he would come back, but I don't think he ever will. :sad:
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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twinsrwe
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by twinsrwe »

Curryong wrote:dubiousmike must have been Mr Dube's son. ...
Yes, you are correct.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by twinsrwe »

PossumPie wrote:I believe that some people just tire of Lizzie Borden. I myself get "obsessed" over things, and research them for a while, then move on. Perhaps that is some of what happened. Some people butt heads with another member and say, it isn't worth the frustration. Some take a mini vacation from the forum and come back. Some seem not to understand that many of us actually like a polite argument. I don't want a forum where everyone agrees. I LOVE arguing with my father about different things, especially controversial topics. We love each other, and enjoy the polite arguments.
I agree with everything you stated, Possum.
Last edited by twinsrwe on Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Catbooks »

twinsrwe wrote:
Catbooks wrote:… i was surprised when i came across rays's posts. the vast majority of the people's posts i'd read here, people were very polite, friendly, maybe occasionally annoyed, but never rude. so when i read the first few of his, whoa! :shock: terminally grumpy. …
RayS was convinced that Billy Borden murdered Abby and Andrew. Therefore, he was forever throwing Arnold Brown’s theory at us, and when a member would disagreed with him, then look out!

Have you read the book, Lizzie Borden The Legend, The Truth, The Final Chapter, By Arnold R. Brown?

Following is a film is an overview of Arnold Brown’s theory and book, which was edited by Stefani Kooray. Mr. Brown published his book as a ‘nonfiction’ account of the Borden murders. Unfortunately, there is no evidence, whatsoever, to support his theory. Check it out…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjPheZblQL4


RayS submitted a 5 topics regarding the Proof for Arnold Brown’s Theory. These links will give you a better understanding of the frustration forum members encounter with RayS.

viewtopic.php?t=2205

viewtopic.php?t=2242

viewtopic.php?t=2384

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2462&start=50

viewtopic.php?t=2525


If you are interested, I submitted an updated version of the ‘Blister Beetle Poisoning’ in this topic: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3162

Catbooks wrote:… just found another thread of mbhenty's tonight, filled with amazing photos of the beautiful old houses in the area, most of the ones on this thread had mansard roofs. what a treat for me to see those photos! i'd read with great interest he lives in the house next door to maplecroft, and found a thread where he'd deleted a whole lot of his posts that i supposed were rants about the changes made to the house. in ways i understand how he feels. i'm a preservationist at heart and hate seeing beautiful old houses torn down or remodeled.

i didn't know he grew up in fall river. that explains why he knows so much about the area, and is so passionate about it. i wish he'd come back.
Yes, mbhenty submitted some awesome photos and information on Maplecroft. Now you know why I miss him. I also wish he would come back, but I don't think he ever will. :sad:
:lol: i had come across quite a lot (maybe all? definitely most) of rays's posts where he was very insistent on arnold brown's theory being the one and only, as far as he was concerned. i did read the book, and while i don't mean to insult anyone, i thought it was a terrible book. the worst lizzie book i've read.

i'll take a look at rays's threads a bit later, and am very curious about what ‘blister beetle poisoning’ might be. it sounds intriguing and i've not heard of it before :)

yes, i do see why you miss mbhenty. aside from his knowledge, those houses, and the photos themselves. seeing the houses in all the seasons, with snow-covered roofs and bare trees, or blazing amber-colored leaves, or in full spring or summer green leaves. just beautiful.
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Catbooks »

:grin: well that was entertaining. brown's theory and prose were even more over the top than i'd remembered them. i remember him talking about a stench, but not the beetle blister horse urine whatsit hooey.
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Curryong »

I haven't read Brown's book but I take it that he propounded the theory of the illegitimate son, William, being the unknown killer, but without any proof, and rayS argued it on the Forum, a bit like Franz did with his theory of John Morse's involvement. I also take it, am I wrong, that mbhenty was more a believer in Lizzie's innocence than in following any particular theory about it, though he did support rayS at times.
I agree with you, twinsrwe, and Possum that it would be very good to get a full spectrum of views on the Borden case on board the forum, and I am sorry that the Lizzieites seem to have largely left, leaving the 'Lizzie is guilty' posters largely in the majority. Was it always so, even in the early days, that Lizzieites were vastly outnumbered?
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by twinsrwe »

I must apologize to everyone. The link I gave you for part 4 starts on the second page! Jeez!!!

Here is the link I meant to post:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2462
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by twinsrwe »

I feel the one thing that ties the entire Arnold Brown theory together, is the part regarding the stench of a dead horse's urine infected with the disease called Blister Beetle Poisoning. I’d be very interested to hear your opinions after reading these two posts.

My first post regarding the Blister Beetle Poisoning is here (See post dated: Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:54 am):

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/LBFor ... 7&start=50


My revised version is located here (See post dated: Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:30 pm):

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3162
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
Catbooks
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Catbooks »

ugh, i can't read any more rays or arnold brown or any combination of the two. it gives me a headache. as far as i'm concerned, both are a bunch of hooey. that's my honest opinion :)
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by twinsrwe »

Curryong wrote:I haven't read Brown's book but I take it that he propounded the theory of the illegitimate son, William, being the unknown killer, but without any proof, and rayS argued it on the Forum, a bit like Franz did with his theory of John Morse's involvement. I also take it, am I wrong, that mbhenty was more a believer in Lizzie's innocence than in following any particular theory about it, though he did support rayS at times. …
You are correct about Brown’s book, and RayS.

Hmmm, I don’t recall if mbhenty was a believer in Lizzie’s innocence or if he believed her to be guilty. Sorry. Most of his post were in regards to Maplecroft.

Curryong wrote:… I agree with you, twinsrwe, and Possum that it would be very good to get a full spectrum of views on the Borden case on board the forum, and I am sorry that the Lizzieites seem to have largely left, leaving the 'Lizzie is guilty' posters largely in the majority. Was it always so, even in the early days, that Lizzieites were vastly outnumbered?
I think it has always been that the majority of members believe Lizzie was guilty. However, I do enjoy the posts by members who believe her to be innocent.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Curryong »

This is from the testimony of Officer Harrington of the Fall River Police Dept, taken from 'Lizzie Borden: Warps and Wefts'.

Harrington seemed to entertain serious doubts about Lizzie from his first encounter with her, but here is his description of her pink wrapper.

'It was a house wrap, striped with pink and white stripes alternately. Pink was the predominant color. In the light stripe was a diagonal formed by lighter stripes, some parallel and others bias. It was fitted to the form in a tailor-made manner. It had a standing collar. It was closely shirted, gathered closely at the front. From the waist to the neck it was puffed with a number of folds. On either side, directly over the hips, was a narrow red ribbon. This was brought around in front and tied in a bow knot. It was cut with a demi-train or bell skirt which the ladies were in the habit of wearing last year.'

Oh, Officer Harrington, why oh why weren't you at the Borden house earlier. The mystery of the Bedford cord could have been solved!
Apparently Lizzie smiled broadly at this unusually detailed report from a male, and laughed softly, turning to see what the crowd in the courtroom thought of it.
Last edited by Curryong on Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Curryong »

Sorry, put Borden, meant Harrington, of course.
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Catbooks »

holy cats, what great detailed testimony! thanks so much for finding that. i know i've not seen that before. yes, if only harrington had come to the house earlier.

i'm impressed he knew as much as he did about ladies' clothing, and was so incredibly observant.
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Curryong »

It's sad to think that he died at 34, soon after he married. He had a large funeral so must have been popular. It's said that he lived with his sister Mary before marriage so maybe she taught him about ladies' dresses.
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by PossumPie »

Scientific deduction says you take known facts, and DEDUCE what happened from those facts.

After a thunderstorm You find a dead cow under a tree which has blackened areas down it's length, and it is split in half. Using the facts: there was an electrical storm, a tree appears hit by lightning, and there is a dead cow under it, we DEDUCE that it was electrocuted.

My frustration, want to pull out my hair and scream problem with Franz and the rest is that they start with a theory, and manipulate some facts to fill in the gaps. Using my above example, I could say "I believe aliens abducted the cow for experiments, put it back under a tree that had been hit by lightning to make it look like that is what killed it." The problem here is you are manipulating known facts to come up with an outrageous theory.

There is NO evidence that there was any animosity between Morse and the Bordens, There is NO evidence of motive for Morse, there is NO evidence that two men pulled off a lure to get Abby outside while one went to hide, there is NO evidence a fake note was written, then taken back by the killer, there is NO evidence that the front door was even unlocked before Andrew returned,There is NO evidence Lizzie was smoking, drinking or masturbating in the barn, there is NO evidence of an illegitimate son, there is NO evidence that the Pope in Rome ordered them killed b/c of the Illuminati....You can't take a wild theory and fit the known facts in to lend credence to it. You MUST take known facts, and try to make sense of them. Will this always work? No. Sometimes there is a piece of the puzzle that is missing BUT until you find it, you can't 'pretend it is there'

End of temper tantrum...
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Curryong »

It's all right PossumPie. Go and have a nice soothing hot chocolate, or bourbon on the rocks! I think Brown wanted to sell lots of books. Don't know whether he did so though!. And where did this illegitimate Borden son come from, anyway?
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Re: Lizzie's Dresses

Post by Catbooks »

Curryong wrote:It's sad to think that he died at 34, soon after he married. He had a large funeral so must have been popular. It's said that he lived with his sister Mary before marriage so maybe she taught him about ladies' dresses.
aw, that is sad. 34, so young. someone taught him, that's for sure. probably was his sister. 'In the light stripe was a diagonal formed by lighter stripes, some parallel and others bias,' that's detail! very close detail. he must have really been studying her.
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