All About Abby

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All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Could we please speculate for a while on Abby's demise, not so much on her relationship with Lizzie or the whys' of her murder, but other questions, that I would really like to get straight in my own mind?

Possible position assailant and victim during the attack, for instance. Blood splatter in the guest room, some of it in unusual places, just how much Abby's body was moved about before being photographed, the wounds on her head, and one on her back which was found in the second autopsy. How we think she was approached by her killer, why she didn't manage to scream her head off, and other questions which may have intrigued us.

I know most of these have been done to death (pun here) on this forum before, but some were discussed on very early threads and sometimes it requires a trawl to get them. Some very interesting discussions on facets of Abby's death have also come up on threads which began by discussing something else and so they got buried (no pun intended) and are not easily accessed.

Abby's time of death, for instance, has been disputed in some books such as "Lizzie didn't do it" and it's true, estimation of time of death is an inexact science, even today. Dr. Dolan arrived at the Borden residence at about 11:45am. He saw Abby for the first time at about 12 noon. He didn't use a thermometer, merely touch and observation.

At the preliminary hearing he stated "I couldn't say exactly how long she had been dead but it was my impression she was dead anywhere from an hour to hour and a half when I saw her". (It's highly unlikely that she would have been killed between 10:30 and 11:00am, as we know from other activity in the house) and by the trial he settled, conservatively, on a difference between the two deaths at 'about an hour and an hour and a half'.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/f ... imony.html
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Re: All About Abby

Post by debbiediablo »

This surprised me:

"The upper part of Mr. Borden's intestines was comparatively empty. In the upper part of Mrs. Borden's intestines was some undigested food."
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Yes, and there was quite a bit of discussion at the trial about the effect of 'summer sickness' on the digestive system and whether Abby, being rather large, would stay 'warm' after death longer than was usual!
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Aamartin »

Dr Bowen re-positioned the body in a more 'lady like' fashion.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Come on Aa don't tease! Tell us how she was lying before!
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Another meddler in a crime scene. A Dr Albert Dedrick was passing, saw Dr Dolan rushing into the Borden home, followed him inside to view Andrew and Abby's bodies and, according to his own testimony, put his hands in Abby's head wounds!
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Aamartin »

there have been reports that she was partially under the bed, as if trying to escape her killer, but I don't know if these reports are documented.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by snokkums »

I think Abby had a pretty miserable life at the Borden "institute". I think she was miserable. Ashe was sick on top of it. She might have been pleased to death to be killed. It got her out of a bad situation.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

thanks for posting for this thread, curryong! i'm struggling to revise my idea of how abby died too.

i recently read abby clothing was rearranged to be more modest. that her skirt was pulled down to cover her leg, or something like that. (yes, but where did i read it??)

from dr. dolan's trial testimony you linked to:
When I went into the guest chamber to view Mrs. Borden's body, the room surely was not dark. The shutter on the north window was open. I did not know then that Patrolman Doherty had lifted the body. I know it now. I did not know that Dr Bowen had pulled out her right hand and felt of the wrist. I know it now.
i believe it was doherty who rearranged abby's skirt. also her hands. i'll try to locate his testimony later. i think it was in the witness statements.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

here's some info on the photos taken.
Preliminary Hearing in the Borden Case before Judge Blaisdell, August 25 through September 1, 1892. Fall River, MA: Fall River Historical Society.

pg. 196, Dr. Dolan specifies the photographs that were taken of the crime scenes, and describes the order in which they were taken:

#1 pic=Abby slightly moved
#2 pic=Abby with bed removed (side shot)
#3 pic= Abby with bed put back again
#4 pic= Abby downstairs
first, a photo of her braided hairpiece that was found at the crime scene. you can see a hairpin in it on the lower left side.

second one shows that odd bulge around her waist. in studying it a bit more, the fabric looks the same as her skirt. so now i'm thinking it may have been that her slip or underclothes bunched up around her waist, and the policeman pulled her skirt back down. either that or abby herself rolled her skirt up.

the third is awfully grainy, but you can best see the soles of her shoes in it. strikes me as very sad that the toes of the shoes are so worn and shabby, when she was married to such a wealthy man. she was just doing housework, but still.

oops, thought the photos would show in order uploaded. oh well, easy enough to figure out anyway.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by debbiediablo »

Look at the blood splatter, or lack thereof, on her light colored blouse. It's easily visible on the dark carpet. Also the boots look three sizes too big.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Thanks for the attachments, good to study them here, Catbooks. Yes, the skirts do appear to be part of her dress but bunched or rolled up; perhaps they are like that because the skirts at the front, that we can't see, are caught up in some way under the body?
It was said that Abby sometimes wore an old pair of Andrew's boots when at home. For comfort perhaps. It may be that, as an older, heavier woman, her feet swelled with fluid retention.
She was 5' 3" or 5' 4 inches in height wasn't she? From the foot of the bed to where she fell is about 5' 3 inches precisely. She may have been bending over the foot of the bed when she was first attacked but that would mean Abby falling like a tree in the forest, just straight downwards, whereas she seems to have just slumped.
Last edited by Curryong on Mon Jun 30, 2014 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

yeah, i can't see any blood, except under her head in the 2nd shot. i do wish they'd taken a shot of the front of her! can't see the part on her back, on her spine, where one of the first cuts/blows was supposed to be, mentioned in the autopsy. frustrating.

it's really hard to make out exactly what's going on with that roll around her waist. something unusual.

right, she was 5'3". i read recently she was found with her feet below the foot of the bed. not by a lot, perhaps a foot. so her head was farther away from the east guest room wall than in the photos. also she was found with her arms above her head. i'm having a heck of a time finding where i found all that so i can post it here! also where i read her head was partially under the bed when she was found.

here's a video of one person's theory on how abby met her maker. it starts around 3:30. mention is made of a wound on the front left side of her face, over her ear - a flap wound, where the 'hinge' of it was towards the back of her face, indicating abby and her killer were face to face at one point. not the first time i've read that, but i don't recall reading that in the autopsy report, nor anywhere else in the statements or testimonies i've read so far.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW-mwDP8EPI
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

here's abby's autopsy report (thanks again, debbie). thought it'd be good to gather as much abby-murder-related info as we can in this thread.
SOURCE: Abby Borden’s Autopsy Report

Fall River, Mass. August 11, 1892

Record of Autopsy on body of Abby D. Borden, aged 64 years. Thursday August 11, 1892. at 12.35 P.M. One week after death. The Autopsy was performed by W. A. Dolan, Medical Examiner, assisted by Dr. F. W. Draper, and witnessed by F. W. Draper of Boston, and J. H. Leary of Fall River. Clerk of Autopsy D. E. Cone of Fall River. Body that of a female, very well nourished and very fleshy 64 years of age. 5 feet, 3 inches in height. No stiffness of death, owing to decomposition, which was far advanced. Abdomen had already been opened. Artificial teeth in upper jaw. No marks of violence on front of body. On back of body was FIRST an incised wound 2 and 1/2 inches in length, and 2 and 1/2 inches in depth. The lower angle of the wound was over the spine and four inches below the junction of neck with body, and extending thence upward and outward to the left. On the forehead and bridge of nose were three contused wounds. Those on the forehead being oval, lengthwise with body. SECOND The contusion on bridge of nose was one inch in length by on half inch in width. THIRD On the forehead one was one inch above left eyebrow, one and 1/4 inches long by 3/8 inch in width, and the other one and 1/4 inches above eyebrow, and one and 1/2 inches long by 1/4 inch wide. On the head there were 18 distinct wounds, incising and crushing, and all but four were on the right side. Counting from left to right with the face downwards, the wounds were as follows:
1. Was a glancing scalp wound two inches in length by one and 1/2 inches in width, situated 3 inches above left ear hole, cut from above downwards and did not penetrate the skull.
2. Was exactly on top of the skull one inch long penetrating into but not through the skull.
3. Was parallel to No. 2, one and 1/2 inches long, and penetrating through the skull.
4. Was 2 and 1/4 inches long above occipital protuberance and one and 1/2 inches long.
5. Was parallel to No. 4 and one and 1/2 inches long.
6. Was just above and parallel to No. 5, and one and 1/4 inches long. On top of skull was a traverse fracture two inches in length, a continuation of a penetrating wound.
7. Was two inches long and two inches behind ear hole crushing and carrying bone into brain.
All the wounds of the head following
7. though incised crushed through into the brain.
8. Was 2 and 1/2 inches long
9. Was 2 and 3/4 inches long
10. Was one and 3/4 inches long
11. Was 1/2 inches long
12. Was 2 and 1/4 inches long
13. Was one and 3/4 inches long
14. Was two and 1/2 inches long
15. Reached from middle line of head towards the ear 5 inches long
16. Was one inch long
17. Was 1/2 inch long
18. Was 3 and 1/2 inches long
These wounds on the right side were parallel, the direction being mostly from in front backwards. HEAD. There was a hole in right side of skull 4 and 1/2 to 5 and 1/4 inches, through which the brain evacuated in fluid condition being entirely decomposed. CHEST. The chest and abdomen was opened by one incision from chin to pubis. LUNGS bound down behind but normal. HEART normal. ABDOMEN, Stomach and part of bowel had been removed. Spleen, pancreas, kidneys, liver, bladder and intestines were normal. Womb was the seat of a small fibroid tumor on anterior surface. Fallopian tubes and ovaries normal. Lower bowel empty. Upper portion of small bowel containing undigested food. – W. A. Dolan, Medical Examiner

D. E. Cone, Clerk
the 'flap' wound must be the underlined one, but no mention of a flap on the autopsy report anyway, and it sounds to me like those wounds were all on the back of her head.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Thank you, Catbooks and debbiediablo for this. There was testimony from Dr Dolan, wasn't there, that she and her assailant faced each other at one point? Hopefully, for a brief moment, and that was how she got the glancing scalp wound near the ear, but right, no mention of a flap wound. Back to do more digging!
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

i don't remember that testimony, but i'm not through reading it all. haven't yet read his trial testimony, or any from the grand jury. i've started on the witness statements. that's what i was reading last. maybe that's where i read about the moving of her body!
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Re: All About Abby

Post by debbiediablo »

I 'lost' two posts when submitted so here goes again except they're combined.

I see Abby bending over to tend the bed or else she's retrieving her braid that fell off while cleaning. She turns to her right at the killer's approach. They are face-to-face or close to it. The killer swings, misses and opens a 1/2x2 inch flap above Abby's left ear. (Wound #1) But Abby isn't dead...she's not even unconscious. Instinct takes over; Abby turns to flee. There's no way to stand and fight in the face of a hatchet attack. The killer strikes again from behind and Abby drops*. She's badly wounded but still trying to get away...the only option is to edge under the bed. The killer climbs on her butt, not her back**, and proceeds to smash her head like a pumpkin. Well, almost. The killer's motion causes Abby's skirt to be hunched up around her waist. Either the killer didn't know when enough was enough or it was all about overkill. Either way, Abby Borden knew she was going to be hacked to death. She appears to have bled out close to where her head is positioned in the shot where the bed is moved. Maybe the blood would be more under her face than beyond the top of her head. Interesting the lack of splatter.

* In August 2013, Derek Medina from Miami, FL, shot his wife and then posted a photo of her corpse on Facebook. It's now pixelated so the wounds aren't visible, but her legs are. She "fell like a tree in the forest" onto her knees with her body slumped backwards over her feet in a position almost impossible in life except for a gymnast.
It's not awful but look at your own risk:

http://petapixel.com/2013/08/12/man-sha ... -his-wife/

** Think about the sitting on a person's back and hacking their head versus on their butt right below the waist. I'm thinking the killer's swing would be impeded if sitting on her back. Or maybe the Victorians simply didn't want to acknowledge that Abby had a butt.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by debbiediablo »

Do we know if there was blood on the braid?
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Catbooks, thanks for posting the video, too. I found it very interesting, especially as it was filmed in the room itself. The scenario described seemed to be very plausible and an explanation was provided too, for the blood near the window which has always intrigued me. It's good to get a view of the actual location for this murder.
Now, when I read in the testimony that the first policeman on the scene, Patrolman Doherty, had 'no room to go between the body and bed or body and dressing case' and he therefore had to push the bed about three feet to the side to get in there, I know what he is talking about.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

interesting theory!

if the killer did sit on abby's butt to deal the majority of the blows on the back of her head, it is likely abby's skirt would ride up. then there's the policeman pulling it down for modesty's sake, and it might look like what we're seeing in the photos. also abby's body was sat up. in order for that to happen they'd have had to first turn her over.

you'd think that once abby saw anyone coming at her with a hatchet, and survival instinct kicked in, she'd have attempted to go over the bed and to the door. if the info in that video is correct (i don't know yet), the bedspread was not mussed. it did have some blood on it, near or on the pillows.

ok, here's part of officer doherty's testimony at the trial:
Page 591

Went into the front chamber on the north side of the building where Mrs. Borden was lying. . . . Dr. Bowen pointed out the body and I went over, and the body was between the dressing case and the bed, and I wanted to see the head, and there was no room for me to go between the body and the bed or body and dressing-case, and I pulled the bed one side and walked up, and I stooped down and looked at the head, moved one of the hands to look at the head, and she was cut. I told Dr. Bowen that she had been murdered too.

Page 592

I saw [Mrs. Borden's head] was cut and hacked, and was lying in a pool of blood. . . . [The blood] seemed to be hard, seemed as if it had been there some time. . . . I saw blood spots on the pillow shams and a bunch of hair on the bed, black hair. . . . I think it was about on the middle of the bed, right on the spread. . . . It appeared to be a piece of hair which had been severed, I think. . . . it was half as large as my fist, I should think. . . . I left it right there.
i know i read more than that. but where?

added: no blood on the braid was mentioned. but that reminds me, on the list of items buried in the borden yard, a hunk of abby's hair with a piece of skull attached was mentioned. not this hairpiece, as there is no skull attached, or anything that looks like a piece of skull. it wasn't buried. what happened to it?

and more added :D : right the blood on the window! we need that, as well as the blood described on the ceiling, side of the bed … well all the blood evidence.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by debbiediablo »

She was stunned by the first blow, turned away, started to move and was brought down with the second blow. I don't see her as having time to think...maybe all in less than two seconds. There could be a small piece of skull attached or else on the underside. Too bad it isn't colorized... :lol:

I see Abby closing the blind in 84º weather...isn't that a south window? (I'm directionally challenged.)
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

it could have happened that way, which might account for the blood on the pillows. yeah, too bad, and too bad it wasn't photographed in more than one angle. i'm not clear there were two pieces of hair or just the one, although one was described as an artificial piece of hair, and then we have another rather detailed description of a piece of hair with a piece of apparent skull attached to it, that was cut with something very sharp - the edges of the skull.

the blind she closed was the front guest room window, which faces west. the other window, near the dresser, faces to the north.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

debbiediablo, patrolman Doherty, the first policeman on the scene, described the 'hank' of hair on the bed, (Abby's false braid) as 'black'. It doesn't look black in the photograph of it, but he doesn't seem to have examined it closely, just 'left it where it was'. I suppose whether it was matted with blood like the rest of her hair (which would 'darken' it, I guess) depends on just when it was cut /slashed/ fell off.


I just don't think Abby got the opportunity to panic or struggle much. Although Abby knew of Lizzie's dislike of her she would still have been unsuspecting of any harm and would have allowed Lizzie to stand reasonably close behind her. I can see Lizzie coming into the room, perhaps standing to the rear of Abby asking an innocuous question, and then suddenly, perhaps while Abby was bending, smoothing over the coverlet on the bed, 'Wham' with the hitherto hidden hatchet.
Abby may well have been stunned (in a literal sense), and perhaps twisted round to find out what had happened to her. She and her killer were face to face but only momentarily. Abby then probably received the blow that Dr Dolan described in his testimony, the flap wound, and then, turning, slumped to the ground, facing east.
Perhaps instinctively her hands went up to her head but I just don't believe there was too much reaction after that. No trying to wriggle under the bed or anything of that sort. I do believe the killer 'rode' or straddled her. I don't think sitting on Abby's back would be satisfactory at all!
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

okay, i've found some of that info about abby's body being moved after she was found, before she was photographed. it'll take me a bit to post it here.

i've also just found info where someone who's actually seen and handled the hair piece i posted above said it was definitely a hair piece, and there were four of those hairpins in it, so it would have been pulled off somehow during abby's murder.

i see it the way you do, curryong, but i want as much info to go on as we can scrape up!
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

ALBERT E. CHASE
Fall River, Mass. August 5, 1892. The following articles and wearing apparel were this afternoon taken from a washtub in the cellar wash room of the Borden House by orders of the City Marshal and Medical Examiner, and were buried under my direction in the yard back of the barn. 1 sofa pillow and tidy, one large piece of Brussels carpet, one roll of cotton batting, one sheet and several pieces of cotton cloth, three towels, one napkin, one chemise, one dress, one pair drawers, one skirt, two aprons, one hair braid and several pieces of hair from Mrs. Borden’s head from five to eight inches long, one neck tie, one truss, one piece of black silk braid or watch guard. I also found mixed in with the hair of Mrs. Borden a piece of bone, which from it nature I took to be a piece of Mrs. Borden’s skull, it was cut so smooth, that I thought it might be of use in determining what kind of instrument was used, as the bone and hair both had the appearance of being cut with a very sharp instrument; I gave this piece of bone to Dr. Dolan. About the middle of the next week Dr. Dolan ordered all the articles dug up. After taking out pieces of clothing and of the carpet, they were ordered buried again.
so where were the several pieces of abby's hair, 5-8 inches long, found? dr. dolan was given the hair with the piece of skull. what happened to it after that?
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Yes, absolutely! I'm trying to gather evidence of the blood splatter at the moment. How intriguing that the hairpiece wasn't slashed off, so to speak. I'm wondering now whether it was loosely pinned and Lizzie, in a fit of frustration, (perhaps it was getting in the way of her hatchet) pulled it off and threw it on the bed! I suppose if a hatchet was chopping away, several hanks of hair would go flying. They shaved the rest off, didn't they, for the autopsy? There's that pathetic photo of her head taken from behind, showing all the cuts on the skull.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

The piece of Abby's skull seems to have gone to the same place as Andrew's last letter to John Morse. The Prince Albert joined them there!
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

forgot to mention a couple of things. first abby's shoes. maybe they are andrew's old boots. if they are, it might explain why the toes are so scuffed up. they'd have been too long for her and ill-fitting, and the toes may well have hit the rise of the step above often as she was going up either set of stairs. but, andrew was a millionaire in terms of back then! he could more than have afforded to buy abby a pair of decent, comfortable house shoes.

also, i'm still not seeing evidence of a flap wound on the front of abby's face. what's described first is the blow on her back. then they go into what they found on her face, and then 'Counting from left to right with the face downwards, the wounds were as follows,' with the wound above her ear listed first. those wounds are on the back of her head.

oh good, thanks for gathering together the blood splatter evidence! i'm not certain if the hairpiece was also cut off, or pulled off, but pulling it off and throwing it on the bed because it was getting in the way sounds likely. yeah, they shaved her head. that photo is pathetic. poor abby.

so abby's piece of hair with skull, the prince albert, andrew's letter to morse, and the rest of andrew's clothing are all residing somewhere together in a black hole! :D
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Re: All About Abby

Post by debbiediablo »

Does anyone else have problems with posts simply vanishing after clicking 'Submit'? I've had four disappear in this thread this afternoon...none before today in any of the threads.

Do we know whether Abby made it a habit to close the blinds? Were all of them closed? Did Mrs. Churchill sleep where her Inner Voyeur would've had an opportunity to oversee activity in the Bordon second floor. Activity that was so terrible that her lips would never speak of it?

Thank you for the directions. I'm one those people who loses her car and spends an hour wandering on the opposite side of the mall parking lot, so I apologize for direction questions, but I'll never sort it out without asking. Even when looking at a diagram of the house.

Maybe the officer couldn't differentiate between dark brown and black hair or maybe it matched Abby's hair when she was younger. It sure doesn't look black to me, and it doesn't look like it was ripped from her skull similar to a scalping. What appears to be fasteners are on the left side in the thicker hair.

Yes, I can see your sequence, too, Curryong. An inconsequential discussion that ends in dire consequences. I stopped watching Dexter a few seasons in, but I'd love to have him analyze that blood splatter. To me, it appears that Abby would've bled out closer to under her head rather than beyond the top of her head. Despite what it may look like, I'm hesitant to Google "fatal head wound images" for comparison... :!:
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Re: All About Abby

Post by debbiediablo »

"1. Was a glancing scalp wound two inches in length by one and 1/2 inches in width, situated 3 inches above left ear hole, cut from above downwards and did not penetrate the skull."

/\ This is the flap wound which was delivered from the front because the attachment flesh was to the back of her head which would not be the case if the blow had been delivered from behind. (Think of peeling a potato from front to back at an angle and then leaving the peel attached at the bottom.) This is a glancing wound that didn't penetrate the skull and wouldn't have dropped her to the floor. It happened first because the rest of the blows to the back of her head would have dropped her to the floor and quite possibly one alone would've proved fatal. It's not described as a flap but if it's 2 inches in length and 1/2 inch in width cut downwards then the likelihood is that it's the flap. The confusion is width and length would seem be the same in this case (thank you PossumPie for calling attention to how no one seems to use words like lateral, dorsal, superior, etc.). Either it's a flap 2 inches across and 1/2 inch down on each side and still connected to the skull at the base or it's a flap 1/2 inch across and 2 inches down on each side and connected to the skull at the base.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by debbiediablo »

The only person who could've described Abby as being partially under the bed was Dr. Bowen. He's the only one who saw her before he moved her.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

i haven't had any problems losing posts here. sorry you are, it's maddening having to reconstruct them. a case of os maverick's bugginess striking in a delayed way?

only the window on the front of the house had its blinds closed. i don't know if she was in the habit of closing them or not.

no problem about the directions :). that's one thing that's always come easy to me, but i am slightly dyslexic, so some things are as tough for me as directions are for you. for instance, those mazes you hold up to a mirror and try to trace? nightmare for me! i feel like my brain's going to explode when i tried to do them.

the hair probably looked darker to him lying on a white comforter, and he wasn't paying much attention to it. it appears there really are two hair thingies we're dealing with here. that's how it reads to me.

but all that says is upwards and downwards. nowhere does it say the blow came from the front (or back), and i can't find any testimony about any flap, so as far as we know, the 'hinge' could just as well have been in the front.

i found the source of the abby's head partially under the bed statement. it was in the jennings' 'hipbath papers.' somewhere. but he wasn't even around, and i haven't found statements from any of the people who were saying that.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Strangely, there doesn't seem to have been as much upswing splatter in the bedroom as there was in the sitting room, perhaps because Abby was on the floor most of the time.

Testimony from Dr Dolan at Lizzie's trial June 13th 1893.

'With Mr Seaver I made a memorandum of the blood spots in the house. In the guest room there was one spot on the North wall 9 inches from the window and 2 and a half inches from the floor. There were about fifteen spots on one of the marbles of the dressing table. On the lower part of the dressing table about fifty spots. Fifteen spots on the mirror. On the east wall seven spots. (Abby was facing east when she was found.'
I think it's fairly clear that Abby died where she first collapsed, in that odd, kneeling position. Her head was laying in a pool of blood and the bodice of her dress was badly stained. The only blood spotting that seems slightly unusual is that found on the north wall near the window. It is low down, so I think it probably came from the killer, who might have been adjusting the shutters, I suspect.
Back with more soon.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

i'm dashing out the door, just wanted to quickly say i found testimony on the flap wound! yes, it came from the front.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Both Patrolmen Doherty and Fleet mentioned seeing blood spots on the pillow shams. Wonder whether they were placed on the end of the bed (the shams, I mean) or the head.
From 'Goodbye Lizzie Borden' by Robert Sullivan. Page 123.
Dr Dolan's testimony.

Q. Now, taking the position of Mrs Borden, the pillow shams, the bedspreads, the spots on the pillow shams, mirrors and baseboard, where in your opinion did the assailant stand when inflicting those injuries?
A. Astride the body.
Q. And over it?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How did the assailant face?
A. Faced the east wall.

At this point Juror Hodges became faint, affected by the grisly dialogue. Hodges was a blacksmith. The jury was allowed to retire to their room for a while. After he'd recovered they returned.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by debbiediablo »

My memory is good for what I read but just like directions, I often cannot remember where...:-) Happy you found as I can stop looking!
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Re: All About Abby

Post by debbiediablo »

The blow low on the neck: I wonder if this is what chopped off both hair and fake braid.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by debbiediablo »

Hi Everyone! Has anyone ever taken a body image like the ones where pain areas are marked at the chiropractric office and mapped the wounds on Abby. A head and upper shoulders are all that'd be necessary. Andrew's wouldn't be so fascinating, but I'd love to see Abby's wounds

• numbered in order received
• marked in three colors for
• delivered from front,
• delivered from back and
• accidental due to fall.

I have a brand new Canon printer-scanner-FAX-copier that isn't in sync with Maverick OS. Once it's up and running this might be a revealing project...unless PossumPie who undoubtedly knows a lot more about A & P than I do, who can read doctors meaning better than anyone and likes experiments...unless PossumPie would like to do it...:-))))))

Looking at her wounds on her head in the order received and those delivered from front and those from back would help me picture what happened in that guest room. I'm willing to give this a try unless someone else volunteers....and it hasn't been done before.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Dr Borden testifies Prelim Hearing
Pages 103-105

'Under her head and pretty well down her breast she was lying in a pool of clotted blood, quite dark, as if it had been there some time.
The front of the clothing was very much soaked, that is down to the chest and also the back, down about halfway, of
course going right through to her underclothing.
On the pillow sham, immediately above, about a foot or eighteen inches in front were three spots. On the rail of the
bed I should judge there would be from thirty to forty, perhaps fifty spots of blood.

Those on the shams were forward ones, about a foot or eighteen inches on the sham. The direction was forward from the head [nearer the wall].

[She was lying on the floor with her head towards the east wall] Probably four or five feet- four feet [from the east wall].

[Those were on the pillow shams some eighteen inches nearer the wall than her head. . . and that distance from her head].

[the direction of those on the wall] They were lateral first; they were direct, as if spattered directly against it. On the drawers of the dressing case, I presume they were swelled and could not be put in their whole length, on the projection of them, on the uppermost drawer, there were three or four spots. I think on the second one there were six or seven spots, quite large ones, as if they had gone up in the air and had fallen down.

On the moulding, the piece of moulding east of the north window, that is the moulding that caps the mop board, about five or six inches from the casing, there was a spot of blood.

On the moulding that caps the mop board. Above that, about two feet, there was a spot on the paper.

From the head they would be between six and seven feet at an angle, that is, the dressing case formed an angle, the body lying here, the spots were over here.

There was a straight line, but the dressing case intervened [No uninterrupted straight line].

I found on the east wall that is up against the head of the bed, where the head of the bed was, I found three or four spots there on the wall, and some on the moulding of the mop board.

Pg. 116:
[She was lying with both hands] more extended over the head, as it were, not over it, but around the head.

Yes but not resting on the arms; the head in a circle.

Pg. 197:
I am glad you spoke of that chair that is lacking from the photograph. There was a kind of camp chair, you might call it, an upholstered chair between her head and the east wall; and the feet of that were covered with blood.

[at the end of the bureau between the bureau and the window] I think there was a cane seated chair.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Yes please debbiediablo, volunteer. I think that would be good. My blood spot evidence post seems to be separated in two excerpts by a few of your posts and another of mine! A bit worrying! I wonder whether the site is playing up today?
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

oh, well done, curryong! ima have to read the blood splatter testimony over again. some of it i'm not understanding.

i like the idea of doing a map, as it were, of abby's body with the wounds called out. afraid i'm not who you want to do that. do we know for certain in what order the wounds were made?

it's near dark now and i have to take my dog out for a walk. be back in a bit.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Somehow or other Dr Dolan's notes got separated from the rest of the blood spatter post so I'm posting it again. Don't know what happened!
He took notes/ made a memorandum which he referred to during his testimony.

'With mr Seaver I made a memorandum of the blood spots in the house. In the guest room there was one spot on the North wall 9 inches from the window and 2 and a half inches from the floor. There were about fifteen spots on one of the marbles of the dressing table. On the lower part of the dressing table about 50 spots. Fifteen spots on the mirror. On the east wall seven spots.

He then obviously expands on same in his testimony, and gives evidence of more blood spots.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Mara »

Catbooks wrote:
...dr. dolan was given the hair with the piece of skull. what happened to it after that?
Doesn't the Fall River Historical Society own it?

This is a fabulous thread, by the way. Sorry I'm too busy with mundane stuff to jump in right now, but I will! ("Yeah, Mara, after all the hard work's been done" I hear you cry...).
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

good thing there's an almost full moon out tonight, or we'd have been walking in the dark.

dolan's testimony about the flap wound:
Dr. Dolan, Trial, pp. 922-923:
Q. Have you told us about the injury upon the left temple of Mrs. Borden?
A. The scalp wound?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. There was a flap cut here? (Indicating on forehead)
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Cut so it came forward like that (I am pointing to the right, because that is before the
Jury, but really on the left side of the head)?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it was cut from the front towards the rear?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. With the hinge on the back part of the cut so that it would lift up in this way, as on a
hinge?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When that blow was given, where in your opinion, did the assailant stand?
A. In front, facing the assaulted.
Q. That is, the assailant and assaulted faced each other?
A. Yes, sir.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

debbiediablo wrote:The blow low on the neck: I wonder if this is what chopped off both hair and fake braid.
it would have to have chopped off the part(s?) of her hair with the skull attached. i wonder if any attempt was made to fit that piece of skull into abby's skull to see exactly where it came from, if that was possible.

on one of them, not sure which now, testimony was that it was cut with a sharp instrument. someone was guessing the cut on her back/spine may have been the one to cut off the hair and no blood found on it because the blade went first into the hair, then her clothing, and then her back.

re: the jennings papers. it appears they were released march, 2012. i can't find anything in the journals themselves. here's one of the articles on it. interesting how lizzie and andrew were portrayed (revealed?) differently than as we tend to think of them.
The notorious 19th-century trial of Lizzie Borden, a wealthy New England woman accused of killing her parents with an ax, is back in the spotlight with the discovery of her attorney's handwritten journals, providing fresh insight into the relationship with her father.

Borden was acquitted in 1892, and much of the evidence in the case ended up with Andrew Jackson Jennings, Borden's attorney. The two journals, which Jennings stored in a Victorian bathtub along with other evidence from the case, including the infamous "handless hatchet," were left to the Fall River Historical Society by Jennings' grandson, who died last year.

The society received the fragile journals about a month ago but won't be exhibited until they are properly preserved, curator Michael Martins said.

Each journal is about 100 pages. One contains a series of newspaper clippings, indexed using a lettering and number system that Jennings devised. The second contains personal notes that Jennings assembled from interviews he conducted. Some of the individuals interviewed are people mentioned in the newspaper clippings Jennings retained.

"A number of the people Jennings spoke to were people he knew intimately, on a social or business level, so many of them were perhaps more candid with him than they would have been otherwise," Martins said. "But it's also evident that there are a number of new individuals he spoke to who had previously not been connected with the case."

Martins and fellow curator Dennis A. Binette published a book last year called "Parallel Lives" that included five photographs and 40 letters and documents in Borden's hand that had not been previously published.

Borden was imprisoned in Taunton, Mass., for 10 months pending her trial, and several of the letters published in "Parallel Lives" were written from her prison cell. Borden, who was 32 at trial, has been portrayed as a cold, stoic individual who showed no emotion, but the letters show a sensitive, grieving side of her.

Borden's father, Andrew Borden, became known as an evil man who did not provide for his daughters. But Martins says the journals and letters paint Andrew Borden differently.

"You have to create villains in order to justify the murders, and Andrew Borden is portrayed as evil, but he gave his daughters a lot more than some other fathers were giving theirs," Martins said.

Jennings' notes in his journals show he interviewed people who knew the Borden family intimately and were familiar with Andrew Borden's relationship with his daughters.

"Lizzie Borden cared for her father very deeply," Martins said. "There was a tremendous outpouring of grief in the letters, and that's a new side to the story."

Because the journals are so fragile, Martins has been unable to read them in their entirety, but he said it's unlikely they include a "smoking gun" that would prove Lizzie Borden killed her father and stepmother. Instead, they provide insight into the character of Lizzie Borden, who, despite her acquittal, was deemed by the public to be a brutal ax murderess, evident in the twisted nursery rhyme:

"Lizzie Borden took an Ax, And gave her mother forty whacks, When she had seen what she had done, She gave her father forty-one."

"Most of what is known about Lizzie Borden is based on legend, innuendo and outright lies," Martins said. "Fact has been suppressed by fiction, and the fiction is much more interesting to a lot of people."
edited to add: mara, you keep at those taxes or whatever mundane thing it is keeping you away. we look forward to your comments, whenever you can make them.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Do full moons do things to posts on forums?
Fabulous, Catbooks. If only we knew the sequence of the blows. The facial attack must have been an early blow, second or third at the most, mustn't it? No-one could have stayed upright under a savage assault. Perhaps one sneaky first one from the rear, then, as she twists around, dazed, the hinge blow follows.
If we take it Abby wasn't moving around the room an awful lot then the spot near the window must have been shed by the killer. Mrs Churchill gave evidence about seeing shutters closed. Will look it up.
The wound on the back between the shoulder blades and the one low on the neck are bizarre. I wonder whether you know who had completely lost it by then and the hatchet went wherever.
I thought the Jennings journals were in a rather delicate state and had to be repaired by experts before being completely transcribed. Admittedly it's taking a while.
I'm sure there was love between Lizzie and her father, and she probably did feel great grief, perhaps mixed with remorse. I remember someone remarking in a post when 'Parallel Lives' came out that, when researching it, a whole different side of Lizzie was revealed which shook even Stefani's belief in Lizzie's guilt. And Stefani's forgotten more about the Borden case than most of us have ever known.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by debbiediablo »

Curryong wrote:Thanks for the attachments, good to study them here, Catbooks. Yes, the skirts do appear to be part of her dress but bunched or rolled up; perhaps they are like that because the skirts at the front, that we can't see, are caught up in some way under the body?
It was said that Abby sometimes wore an old pair of Andrew's boots when at home. For comfort perhaps. It may be that, as an older, heavier woman, her feet swelled with fluid retention.
She was 5' 3" or 5' 4 inches in height wasn't she? From the foot of the bed to wear she fell is about 5' 3 inches precisely. She may have been bending over the foot of the bed when she was first attacked but that would mean Abby falling like a tree in the forest, just straight downwards, whereas she seems to have just slumped.
I was married for 39 years this past Friday. Andrew and Abby were married twelve years less. So often people who live together for many decades become more and more alike other as time passes. I'm guessing frugality was already part of Abby's character when Andrew picked her as a wife, and she continued to value a thrifty life just as much as her husband. Quite possibly Abby's care with money made Andrew more willing to help her family members during hard times. Those shoes might not so much Andrew's choice as Abby's. They were no longer decent for Andrew to wear out on business but sturdy enough when padded inside to serve as work boots for Abby.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

The body of Abby was examined/ touched by several people in the hours between being discovered by Bridget and Mrs Churchill and being photographed in the late afternoon.

Dr Bowen was the first. He entered the guest room, 'went round the foot of the bed and placed my hand on her
head. I found there were wounds. Then I felt her pulse; she was dead.'

Then came Dr Bowen with Officer Doherty, who moved the bed in order to view the wounds.

After that came Dr Dolan, followed closely by Dr Drederick, who just happened to be passing and followed Dolan into
the house and put his hands into Abby's wounds.

Dr Dolan gave evidence at the preliminary trial of his first look at Abby's body at 12 noon approx.

Q. As you saw it, without turning it over, what was the appearance of it ?
A. You could not see any part of the face. All that was exposed was the right half of the back of the head.
Q. What did you do then, did you turn the body over?
A. Yes sir. I turned the body up to get to the light to count the wounds better.'
(This was with the help of Dr Bowen.)
Q. She was lying with both hands under?
A. No sir, more extended over the head as it were, not over it, but around the head.
Q. This fashion, putting my hands in front of my face?
A. Yes, bur not resting on the arms; the head in the circle.
Q. In that fashion, with my hands being above the line of my face and the hands being together?
A. I would not say they were together exactly.
Q. Approaching?
A. Yes sir.

Then there is Second St resident George Pettee, who was invited by Dr Bowen to view both bodies. He saw Mrs
Borden's. 'It was quite dark in there' (the guest bedroom) 'and I couldn't see well. I put my hand on her head in order
That I might see and feel the condition the head was in. The hair was dry and it was matted. No fresh blood'
Pettee arrived at the Borden house at 12 noon.

Then came Marshall Fleet, who in the course of his investigations also took a look at Abby. She was finally photo-
-graphed late that afternoon, a session which resulted in Dr Dolan stating that the position of Abby's head was
changed from when he had first seen her.

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Re: All About Abby

Post by PossumPie »

Image

Where is he when we need him!
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Re: All About Abby

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Good one, Possum!!! :grin:
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