All About Abby

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Re: All About Abby

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Here is what I'll do. The pics are very poor quality BUT I will digitally enhance them with my PC. I'll use the verbal autopsy description to map out the location as best I can with a skull. I'll describe the area of the brain under the wounds to give an idea of the psycho-motor trauma that would have occurred had the wound been done pre-morem...Give me a little time, I WISH I had close ups of the wounds, and close ups of the skulls...when bone fractures, small spiderweb cracks go out in all directions. If another wound is near, those spiderweb cracks meet up with the first ones, and abruptly stop...SO...you can tell which wound happened first, second, etc. I could extrapolate these fairly well if I had a close up, but alas, all the pics are old, grainy and from a distance. Well, it's a blizzard here in PA and I have the day off, so here goes.
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Re: All About Abby

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PossumPie wrote:Here is what I'll do. The pics are very poor quality BUT I will digitally enhance them with my PC. I'll use the verbal autopsy description to map out the location as best I can with a skull. I'll describe the area of the brain under the wounds to give an idea of the psycho-motor trauma that would have occurred had the wound been done pre-morem...Give me a little time, I WISH I had close ups of the wounds, and close ups of the skulls...when bone fractures, small spiderweb cracks go out in all directions. If another wound is near, those spiderweb cracks meet up with the first ones, and abruptly stop...SO...you can tell which wound happened first, second, etc. I could extrapolate these fairly well if I had a close up, but alas, all the pics are old, grainy and from a distance. Well, it's a blizzard here in PA and I have the day off, so here goes.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You are the only one of us who can do this with expertise. I'd be guessing anything beyond where the wounds were located. Thank you again.
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Re: All About Abby

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ok, here's part of officer doherty's testimony at the trial:

Page 591

Went into the front chamber on the north side of the building where Mrs. Borden was lying. . . . Dr. Bowen pointed out the body and I went over, and the body was between the dressing case and the bed, and I wanted to see the head, and there was no room for me to go between the body and the bed or body and dressing-case, and I pulled the bed one side and walked up, and I stooped down and looked at the head, moved one of the hands to look at the head, and she was cut. I told Dr. Bowen that she had been murdered too.
i'm getting confused as to who first came into the guest room and moved abby. in this quote it seems like it was doherty and bowen in there, with doherty moving the bed to the side so he could get to her (on her right side, between her body and the bed), moved one of her hands, and pronounced to bowen she was dead. presumably before that, bowen didn't know for certain she was dead.

i'd love to know if it was abby or the killer who shut the shutters on that window. if it were later in the afternoon, it would make sense for abby to shut them, to keep the room cooler and darker, because the sun might pour in. unless the trees in the front, which were in leaf, would cover them anyway. but if the trees cover that window, why would the killer shut them?

would make more sense to shutter the window on the north side, where mrs. churchill might be able to see what was happening in front of it - or nearly in front of it. if mrs. churchill noticed the shutters being closed, that seems to indicate they usually weren't. hmm.
Testimony from Dr Dolan at Lizzie's trial June 13th 1893.

'With Mr Seaver I made a memorandum of the blood spots in the house. In the guest room there was one spot on the North wall 9 inches from the window and 2 and a half inches from the floor. There were about fifteen spots on one of the marbles of the dressing table. On the lower part of the dressing table about fifty spots. Fifteen spots on the mirror. On the east wall seven spots. (Abby was facing east when she was found.'
i'm now thinking abby stood or was upright longer than i'd first thought. 15 blood spots on one of the marble slabs that cover the top of dressing table, likewise on the mirror. then there are the blood spots on the pillows on top of and at the head of the bed.

possum, that's great you're willing to take this on! thank you so much. with your medical background, you'll do a wonderful job.
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Re: All About Abby

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PossumPie wrote:Here is what I'll do. The pics are very poor quality BUT I will digitally enhance them with my PC. I'll use the verbal autopsy description to map out the location as best I can with a skull. I'll describe the area of the brain under the wounds to give an idea of the psycho-motor trauma that would have occurred had the wound been done pre-morem...Give me a little time, I WISH I had close ups of the wounds, and close ups of the skulls...when bone fractures, small spiderweb cracks go out in all directions. If another wound is near, those spiderweb cracks meet up with the first ones, and abruptly stop...SO...you can tell which wound happened first, second, etc. I could extrapolate these fairly well if I had a close up, but alas, all the pics are old, grainy and from a distance. Well, it's a blizzard here in PA and I have the day off, so here goes.
Thank you, Possum!!! I am looking forward to this.
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Re: All About Abby

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Can we have a moment of silence to contemplate thinking out of the box...:-)...PossumPie, you may regret bringing this guy to my attention!!!

"Just to settle it once and for all: Which came first the Chicken or the Egg? The Egg -- laid by a bird that was Not A Chicken." – Neil deGrasse Tyson


This quote and the clarity of blood splatter description brings me to speculate again. How did the killer walk away with only two spots of blood on her – one written off to a 'flea bite' and one on the bottom of her slipper which could be attributed to walking around after the crime. The killer couldn't have worn Andrew's coat while killing Abby so what happened to the blood splatter. There's not a huge amount, no arterial spray, but there's enough that she should've been somewhat bloody. She had enough time to clean up, but I'm now wondering whether the TV movies didn't get it right...she stripped nude and fled to her room where she could wash up and the water could be consigned to the menstrual bucket in the basement. No doubt there was a mirror in her room...or better yet Emma's room which is even more private. This flies in the face of Victorian sexual repression, but folks of that era were disinclined to hatchet their parents to death, too.

My opinions about the Borden murders are a work in process. Especially when we get to how and why. And particularly about Abby and the how of her final minutes of life.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

ha ha! i've never read that quote before. it's a good one.

this is the first time i've heard about blood on the bottom of lizzie's house shoes. where did you read that? the 'flea bite' was on her white slip, or underdress - just to help set the visuals in this thread.

i still think it likely she went into the clothes closet and put on her waterproof before entering the guest room. or emma's waterproof, and emma was covering for lizzie when she said she'd taken it with her to fairhaven.

there was the mirror in the guest room as well, although i don't see her straddling abby's body, or lingering in the room at all, in order to see if she looked to be in order.

i'm going to post the shot of abby showing the dresser again on this page, for easy reference. seems likely to me that the marble part where the blood splatter was found was the lowest one, as it's right below the mirror.

as i was rewatching the movie the other night, i too wondered if it was possible they got it right, however sensational and out step with victorian mores as it sounds. in the movie they showed her bringing the basin down to the cellar and emptying the bloody water into the privy. that could have happened. but they also showed her then dropping the hatchet in, and we know that didn't happen.

oh, a question. just to the left of abby's elbow, is that white thing part of the rose pattern on the rug, or an object? the handkerchief? i can't quite tell.
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Re: All About Abby

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Ok, update. I opened the best head wound picture, inverted the pic to negative, outlined the wounds I could make out, labled them by number from the autopsy report (no easy task b/c most the pathologist didn't bother describing many of their locations...
NOW...
to figure how to upload it. The forum HATES pics from your PC, it only likes one's from the net so I'm working on it...
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Re: All About Abby

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Catbooks wrote:ha ha! i've never read that quote before. it's a good one.

this is the first time i've heard about blood on the bottom of lizzie's house shoes. where did you read that? the 'flea bite' was on her white slip, or underdress - just to help set the visuals in this thread.

i still think it likely she went into the clothes closet and put on her waterproof before entering the guest room. or emma's waterproof, and emma was covering for lizzie when she said she'd taken it with her to fairhaven.

there was the mirror in the guest room as well, although i don't see her straddling abby's body, or lingering in the room at all, in order to see if she looked to be in order.

i'm going to post the shot of abby showing the dresser again on this page, for easy reference. seems likely to me that the marble part where the blood splatter was found was the lowest one, as it's right below the mirror.

as i was rewatching the movie the other night, i too wondered if it was possible they got it right, however sensational and out step with victorian mores as it sounds. in the movie they showed her bringing the basin down to the cellar and emptying the bloody water into the privy. that could have happened. but they also showed her then dropping the hatchet in, and we know that didn't happen.

oh, a question. just to the left of abby's elbow, is that white thing part of the rose pattern on the rug, or an object? the handkerchief? i can't quite tell.
An object, handkerchief or the like. It blends in with the roses but the top edges cover Abby's skirt just a little.

Waterproof? :eek: :-) Was Emma's waterproof supposedly at Fairhaven and "it never returned, no it never returned and its fate is still unlearned?!?!?" Maybe the fire in the stove to heat the irons had more to do with burning the waterproof. I believe the word used was on the bottom of her 'slipper' not shoe.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

possum, if you'd like, you can pm or email the photo to me and i'll post it. i can pm you my email address. for whatever reason, i don't have trouble uploading photos from my computer. thanks so much for doing this!

an object, thanks for your eyeballs :). i thought it was. so likely it's the handkerchief. it's fabric.

emma testified that she brought her waterproof with her to fairhaven, which left lizzie's and abby's at the house. but i don't know if hers was ever produced, or if anyone she was staying with saw her in it and confirmed she did have it there.

from reading about andrew's congress boots, which he wore around the house, as being referred to as slippers, and lizzie testifying she wore her house shoes all the day of the 4th, 5th, and part of the 6th, i'm thinking that's what was being referred to.
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Re: All About Abby

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Image
Image

OK Wound 1 (from the front over her left ear) was the first wound inflicted. She probably turned to look over her RIGHT shoulder and was hit from the bed-side on the front of her face.
Wound 4 location was described well in the autopsy. I put it in yellow.
Wound 4,5, were parallel and probably from a right-handed person while the body was down.
Wound 6 is problematic it is "sideways" I take that to mean that at least one wound pushed the head toward the left shoulder (the dresser) and then 6 could have been from the same angel as 4 and 5.
Look at 2 and 3. The autopsy describes them as the top of the head, so the person was probably standing straddling the body and they hit the top of the head instead of the back.
The cluster of wounds behind the RIGHT ear are so ferocious and close together, that if you look at the skull, there is just a hole- the bone was destroyed.

The two on her upper neck/lower occipital bone are probably while she was leaning forward falling to the floor. That exposes the back of the neck

PLEASE understand I was working from grainy photos and poorly described wound areas. These are just my observation. I inverted the photo (looked at the "negative" and had a better view of the actual wound beds. I WISH the autopsy contained a drawing of the head with the wounds drawn in, but I have never seen one.
Last edited by PossumPie on Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All About Abby

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Image

The green area was shattered to bits and is missing from the skull
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Re: All About Abby

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This is great!! And fast!! Thank you so much!!! And also funny when underneath the skull it says, "Don't be so open minded your brain falls out."
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Re: All About Abby

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You like him, do you Possum? I think he's rather gorgeous myself!
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Re: All About Abby

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Curryong wrote:You like him, do you Possum? I think he's rather gorgeous myself!
That seems the consensus of women, my wife drools over him everytime we watch Sherlock... :wink:
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

By the way, you are such a help, Possum. Thank you very much for all your hard work on this thread.
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Re: All About Abby

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thanks so much, possum. those graphics are helpful.

looking at all of this, i'm now leaning towards abby being kneeling down when she was struck. perhaps fiddling with straightening the bedspread, or even picking up the braided hairpiece if it had somehow come loose and fallen off. it's still not clear if it is what was found in the middle of the bed, or one of the other hanks of hair.

but with the blood on the top of the dresser, as well as on the mirror, and a little on the pillow(s?), as well as the three wounds on the top of her head, seems likely abby was kneeling. even with the glancing blow above her ear, the autopsy stated the blow was struck from above.

if she were kneeling, that would give lizzie or the killer a definite advantage. she was a large woman, in a small space, and wouldn't have been able to get up quickly from a kneeling position.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Thank you so much again, Possum. And thanks everyone! When I woke up and had my breakfast I turned to the Forum and there was Sherlock on the Abby thread! Then I followed it through and all this effort and progress while I'd been asleep!!
The graphic on the pathetic autopsy photo is fascinating and Possum's commentary explains it all. I wonder whether wound 1 actually was wound 1, to make sure Abby knew who was attacking her, so to speak! Was she bending over the bed, I wonder, when Lizzie approached?
I take it that the two blows on the lower neck soon followed, as she staggered, probably, (if she was standing upright, not bending) and then crumpled to the floor? (She would have gone down quite early in the attack if I'm visualising it correctly.) Then the 'straddling' wounds commenced. The right side of the skull is, as Possum said, just a hole, and an illustration of utter hatred.

(Do you think it more likely that the sole of Lizzie's 'slipper' (probably what we would call an ordinary shoe) would have been in blood during the Andrew killing (more blood dripping down while she was towards the back of the couch) than with Abby? Bit of a blunder on her part not to check her soles but not a fatal one.)
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Re: All About Abby

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Wound 6 and the two at the base of the neck intrigue me most.
6 is at a virtually impossible angle given the body and the limited space on either side, that is why I am leaning to the ones on the right side of the head pushing the head to the left shoulder, and so wound 6 would have been more vertical.

The two at the base of the occipital bone (on the neck area) are at an awkward place with the back of the head blocking them. UNLESS after an early blow, her head fell forward, as her body fell, and it exposed that area to two whacks.
A right handed person standing straddle over her hitting one handed on her right temple would have destroyed the skull to the extent seen in the skull.
Again, all conjecture.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by twinsrwe »

Wow, Possum, you did an awesome job! I find it interesting that the wounds were struck in so many different angles. This visualization makes it easier to understand the autopsy report.

Thank you for all of your hard work, Possum, I am very impressed!
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Re: All About Abby

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numbers 2, 6, and the other horizontal hit on the right side behind her ear are the toughest to explain. i don't know how much space there was between the bed and the dresser. i'm sure that info is somewhere. enough for the killer to position her or himself between the dresser and abby's body to strike those blows?

the right side of her head, behind her ear, did get the brunt of it. looks like that's where the majority of the overkill occurred.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Judging by that video (completely unscientific, I know) it looks to be about 2 and a half feet between the bed and dresser. When the woman dressed as Abby lay down there didn't look to be much room there at all. The police or doctors didn't measure anything like that in those days, did they? I wonder whether it would have been too awkward for the killer to have knelt, either actually on Abby, or with their feet and lower legs between the legs of the dresser. On second thoughts, probably not. If there was any evidence that Abby had been killed elsewhere in the room and then moved it would be so much easier!
With regard to the window, unless Dr Bowen, with blood from Andrew on his trousers, adjusted the shutters to let light in (and I wouldn't put it past him) someone left a couple of blood spots near that Northern window and it wouldn't have been Abby. So much to ponder over!
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

It's very aggravating that I can't find any direct testimony about blood on the Borden bedspread. Dr Dolan recorded spotting on the shams but not on the bedspread, so he must have missed it. It was among the exhibits at the trial and the Fall River Historical Society have it in their care now. All I have been able to find out is from a poster on here ages ago who mentioned that it only had a few spots on one of the lower edges when he saw it on display once. So probably the spotting was negligible.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

i would think that somewhere in the testimony someone measured the distance between the bed and dresser, although maybe not. i'll see if i can find it.

if it's only about 31 inches, that would be a tight space for someone to straddle abby and have room for their lower legs and feet, i agree. i do think, looking at the blood stains on the carpet below her, as well as the testimony that her head was closer to the wall than in the photos, the original position of her body as she fell was 6 or so inches higher. i'm also thinking that if it was lizzie, given how much she disliked abby, she probably wouldn't want to sit on her butt, or even touch her.

the northern window is very close to the dresser, and the blood found there was very low, so it doesn't seem unreasonable it was a stray blood spot from the actual murder. didn't i read somewhere there was a cast-off blood spot on the ceiling from the hatchet being brought up and back?
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Re: All About Abby

Post by debbiediablo »

I see the killer crawling astride Abby's butt during the final part of the attack and either grasping her by the braid or balancing with her left hand on Abby's left shoulder which rotated the skull slightly to the right. This allowed multiple blows on the right side above and behind the ear that caved into the brain. Abby's efforts to shield that part of her head under the bed might have enraged the killer so as the focus on that area.

Hating Abby wouldn't have kept Lizzie from touching her; it was more about degrading and destroying. I've been on the fence about whether this was overkill or failure to recognize when enough is enough. My thinking has moved into the overkill side for now.

Tomorrow I'll try to map the blood splatter areas. Looking down on it should provide a clearer picture of how the attack evolved especially as to where it started, whether by the bed or the window or elsewhere.

Closing the room 'til Monday may have included closing the blinds.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Yes, the killer would have had to almost 'ride' Abby to get close enough to get horizontal hits in. If she was dead, no blood spray of course, though grasping her by her clothing might leave the person with blooded hands. Once he/she's adrenalin got pumping they probably wouldn't have ended it until their arm tired. With this murder plenty of time to calm down and checks on clothing etc. She may have wiped down the raincoat and replaced it in the closet.
It would be absolutely marvellous if we could get a map of the blood splatter, something that hasn't been done on the forum before, like the graphic of Abby's shaved skull. They should have photographed Andrew's, then we could have had comparison charts.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by debbiediablo »

lizzie with knee room.jpg
By this time no telling how much she was moved but her skirt shows evidence of being flattened by the lower half of the murderer's leg and being bunched by the killer's motion. This might be the result of 'tucking' by someone who wanted to restore her dignity...or make her more ladylike. But it's awfully flat for that.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Dr Dolan's testimony from the trial, after speaking of finding out that Dr Bowen and Patrolman Doherty had moved the bed and Abby's arm .earlier. Sounds shirty!

'When I later measured the distance between the bed and the dressing table, where the body lay, I found it to be 37 inches. I did not tell you' (in the prelim testimony, presumably) 'it was 2 feet or 2 feet 10 inches. I said a foot on either side of the body. There was enough room for a person to go between her and the bed.'
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

ah, bless you for finding the distance between dresser and bed! i was searching, got lost reading old threads, and never found it.

but i did find something else very interesting that i never knew. hold onto your hats, boys and girls, there were two chairs in that corner that aren't in the photos!

from kat (a knowledgable, reliable poster):
by Kat » Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:04 pm

Please remember there were 2 chairs in the area of Abby's attack. Here is a fakefoto designed by me to at least attempt to show those in their original positions.
this post: viewtopic.php?p=82158#p82158

maps of the blood splatter would be fantastic!

i just can't see lizzie wanting to get on top of and sit on abby. she didn't even want to eat meals with her, never mind get *that* close up and personal. when you dislike someone, it's natural that you want to keep as much physical distance as you can, and avoid entirely whenever possible.

if abby were kneeling when lizzie (or the killer) struck, it would account for the otherwise difficult to explain positions of some of the strikes. she could have turned towards her/the killer initially, perhaps hearing a sound or sensing something, turned to her right exposing the left side of her face, then struck on the top of the head, then tried to move in the other direction away, towards the east wall, exposing her back.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

oh wow, in that same thread i found these two pages from the jennings files of prelim testimony, and it answers one of my questions. the hair found on the bed was not abby's braided hairpiece, it was one of the several other pieces of hair. still don't know where the braid was found.

thank you for these, kat, wherever you are!

p.s. for debbie, when he says he pulled the bed away from abby, to the north wall (the churchill house side), he has to mean the opposite. he had to have pulled the bed south, away from her, towards the hall.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Oh, my goodness, how exciting! From the Jennings files! This isnt from the notebooks found in the hip bath but another source?
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

i think it's from the hipbath collection. i don't know of any other jennings files, do you?

here's something else in that thread, about abby trying to hide under the bed.
Postby Harry » Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:16 pm

Speaking of new evidence, this video put out by the Fall River Historical Society contains a finding in the Jennings' papers. It is about the position of Abby's body when first found. The finding confirms the long held suspicion by some of us that Abby tried to escape. That portion of the video is about 6:20 into it.

Well worth watching. A lot of the video is advertising for the FRHS but they do a tremendous job with the Borden material and deserve our support. Besides Michael and Dennis are great hosts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C77TckcWHlk
i watched it. the speaker (dennis? i don't know who he is, aside from someone who i guess works at the frhs) said she was found a foot under the bed, but doesn't say what that's based on.

i'm having a hard time with that. you'd think doherty would have mentioned it. wouldn't he have said 'i had to move the bed over because her head was covered by it'? wouldn't dolan have mentioned it when he first came in and saw her? not being able to view her head, even just to i.d. her, seems like a big point.

also, the clearance under the bed looks pretty low, too low for her head. i've read the bed currently there is a close reproduction of the original - is that true? can anyone here confirm or deny? - and it looks like there's maybe 8 inches of space under the bed.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by debbiediablo »

Yes, the video supports my idea about Abby being partially under the bed, trying to get away; however, there's always the possibility that the killer tried to push her under the bed to hide the body, possibly beyond view from the second story across the street. Then, when she didn't fit, the killer closed the blind instead.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

yes, it does substantiate your theory, but nowhere has anyone explained why they think it was a possibility or where this thing about her attempting to hide under the bed came from. i mean the actual source. i can't find anything. but we do have a lot of testimony stating otherwise.

i have my doubts that the killer closed the shutters on one of the two windows on the front. there's a large tree right in front of them, which was in leaf then, and would have covered them pretty well.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by debbiediablo »

I'm about to unsubstantiate my own theory. The ferocious bashing on the right side looks like enough to kill her or at least render her unconscious. If so, then she could not have attempted to edge under the bed after the injuries were inflicted, given that they appear to be repetitive rather than random. And if she were already under the bed, the killer wouldn't have had access to that side of her head. I still think Abby was attempting to flee because that's the logical thing to do unless the killer caught her on the way to close the other blind on that side of the room.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Take a look at that first video link you posted Catbooks. It shows the furniture in the room. In the last video I didn't understand whether Dennis was saying she was a foot under the bed or she had 'a foot' under the bed. I think it was the latter.

With all due respect to you, debbbie, I too am a sceptic about Abby being under the bed. (Or even trying to, as I think she would have been dead or deeply unconscious after a couple of blows.)

In the same thread Catbooks got Kat's Jennings' attachments from I am sure they discussed whether the bed was an authentic replica and, if it was, how much head-room there would be. Will check.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

In both the threads 'New Evidence' and The House' (where Allen is lying on the carpet while her partner takes a photo through the bannisters) you can see the height of the bed that is there now.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Mara »

This will be brief b/c I'm using my iPhone (computer's in Apple's hands for a few days).

With so many tightly clustered hack marks on the right side of Abby's head, I doubt she ever made it under even an inch of that bed before going unconscious or dying. Why would the killer pull her head back out from under to inflict those especially savage blows?

Ah, but ah ha! Maybe that did indeed happen, with the killer grabbing a fistful of hair with the left hand with the intention of yanking it more toward the dresser but coming away with the hairpiece. More frustration! More pulling, more blows!

Or not.

By the bye, I 'm trying to draw mental sight lines from various parts of the second floor of the Churchill house and can't come up with anything that would have admitted a vision of Abby on the floor where she was found. In fact, that spot was pretty well hidden, even with the shutters open. But then, I've not actually stood in the room. I defer to the surmises of anyone who has.

I do favor the idea that Abby was kneeling when the attack commenced. That would explain the spatters on the mirror and marble surfaces of the bureau (which I notice is sometimes called a "case" in testimony. Interesting.

In the photo of Abby done with the bed pulled back (and the camera reflected in the mirror), it's easy to see that odd roll just below Abby's waist. Could she have bunched her skirt up (maybe under the edge of her corset, if she was wearing one -- was one listed amongst her clothing?) to make it easier for her to climb the stairs and do her chores.

Happy Valentine's Day, y'all. My husband brought me home a bag of Pepperidge Farm Geneva cookies. Aww.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

What a lovely gift, Mara!

If you look at the bed that is there now, apparently a replica, I don't think a hedgehog could have rolled under it satisfactorily, let alone a rather large woman!

Maybe the hair braid was yanked off in frustration by the killer. Perhaps it got in the way of the hatchet! It would be nice to know where it (the braid) was found.

The room seems to have been very dark. I think Dr Bowen opened a shutter when he first entered, but you would think Abby would have wanted some natural light for her cleaning.

I used to think that perhaps Abby was near the window when she was first attacked, but now I've changed my mind. I think she was kneeling or at least bending over the bed when she was assaulted. This would leave her back and neck open and vulnerable to attack.

There is certainly something very peculiar going on with Abby's rucked up skirts. Maybe her corset got rolled up if she was sat or knelt on (straddled) during the attack. debbiediablo suggested that and I think she is probably right. Maybe you are too. Who knows.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

curryong, i watched the video again, and he says ‘about one foot underneath the bed,' and says something about her trying to escape. i just can't go along with that, unless they release the info as to why they think this and it's compelling enough to sell me on it :)

one thing's for sure, those strikes on the back right of abby's head that left a big hole in her skull got all of our attention.

i'm frustrated that i can't find the info on where that braid was found. but, at least now we know it wasn't found on the bed. that's better than nothing.

i've tried to figure out the perspective from mrs. churchill's house as well, and am coming up empty-handed. maddeningly, no photos i've found have shown the side of her house that faced the borden's. this is all i could find.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Yes, it looks as if that tree, in full leaf, would shade everything from any chance passer-by in the street, anyway.

I too just don't get the 'foot under the bed' theory. Even looking at what we can see of Abby in the old photographs, I just can't see her wriggling under there, or Lizzie, for some strange reason, hiding her under there. Dr Bowen, the first doctor in the room, didn't mention it, nor did Patrolman Doherty, and Dr Dolan certainly didn't. It would change the whole sequence of the murder and doesn't make sense. The blood pool is there under where her head rests according to the doctors.
By the way, on that 'New Evidence' thread I think Kat photoshopped a chair into the guest chamber attachment she posted. That upholstered chair would be the one Dr Dolan noted had blood on its legs in his report.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

uh oh, i'm pretty sure i said dr. dolan a few times when i meant dr. bowen. or vice versa. or both.

i agree, it's too important a piece of information for none of those who were first on the scene, before she was moved, to mention it. not to mention the logistics, and yes, the pool of blood under her head. there's no sign of any other blood on the carpeting in any of the photos, including the ones where the bed was moved away.

yes, kat used the site she mentioned to put that photo together, so we could get a better idea of what that space would look like with the two (somewhat similar to the original) chairs there. i didn't know dr. dolan mentioned a chair at all!

p.s. happy valentine's day, all!

p.p.s. mara, how sweet of your husband :)

p.p.p.s. judging by that graphic that says 'cut this out and keep it,' looks like if someone were in the churchill house on the 2nd floor, they'd have a very clear shot into that guest room window on the north side.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

At the end of his 'blood spotting' evidence Dr Dolan says 'I am glad you spoke of that chair, that is lacking from the photograph. There was a kind of camp chair you might call it, an upholstered chair between her head and the east wall; and the feet of that were covered in blood.'

Yes, well gee, thanks for mentioning it. Otherwise nobody would know! Dr Dolan doesn't seem to have exactly covered himself with glory when giving evidence! There was also a cane-seated chair squashed into that narrow place but that apparently did not get blood splashes.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by debbiediablo »

This diagram can be edited to a degree.

>7 about 7 splatters on the east wall
3? several splatters on the pillow shams
hair hair found on the bed
O * chair on east wall with legs covered in splatter
/50\ about 50 splatters on front of dresser
15 or 15 about 15 splatters on marble dresser top(s) (take your pick where)
1 one splatter 9 inches from which side of window and 2 1/2 inches up from floor
15 about 15 splatters on mirror

Was there also one splatter on the ceiling?

Clearly blood splatter was not given much attention. What it shows me is the attack took place on the far side of the bed. Abby didn't move very far from where the first blow was struck.

edited to reflect Curryong's next post...
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Thank you so much for this debbie. It's clear the only one interested in blood splatter was Dr Dolan! I am sorry to be a pig and you can curse me out, but in the longer report I posted he stated he found 'I should judge there would be thirty to forty, perhaps fifty spots of blood' on the rails at the foot of the bed. Is it possible to edit the diagram. If it isn't don't worry.
It's very interesting and shows, as you said, that Abby didn't travel far. She may have been bending, kneeling near the foot of the bed smoothing something down, when the killer came round the bed and virtually trapped her.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Thank you, thank you, thankou, debbie, a million kisses from Australia! I'm so sorry to have nit-picked.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by debbiediablo »

NO. NO NIT-PICKING. The blood on bottom rails tells a far different story than when it's not noted. Anyone else is open to comment, too...I want this correct! Off to bed now. It's 1:55 AM.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

What I am seeing here thanks to the diagram, and I may be hopelessly wrong, that, contrary to what I had always imagined, Abby most probably had a clear view of anyone entering the room. It couldn't really have been a stranger or she would have screamed the place down.
On the other hand, if she was bending, smoothing the bedspread, shams, down near the foot of the bed, leaving her back and neck exposed to sudden attack and then one, two, on the lower neck and spine, followed by her face to face potato peel encounter, she could well have been stunned enough to sink to her knees, hands on her head, near to where she was ultimately found.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

Curryong wrote:At the end of his 'blood spotting' evidence Dr Dolan says 'I am glad you spoke of that chair, that is lacking from the photograph. There was a kind of camp chair you might call it, an upholstered chair between her head and the east wall; and the feet of that were covered in blood.'

Yes, well gee, thanks for mentioning it. Otherwise nobody would know! Dr Dolan doesn't seem to have exactly covered himself with glory when giving evidence! There was also a cane-seated chair squashed into that narrow place but that apparently did not get blood splashes.
dr. bowen was even worse!

debbie, thanks so much for doing that!

one point. curryong, is this the blood splatter testimony you were talking about?
On the pillow sham, immediately above, about a foot or eighteen inches in front were three spots. On the rail of the
bed I should judge there would be from thirty to forty, perhaps fifty spots of blood.
i don't see where he said the blood on the bed rail was at the foot of the bed. i think was on the rail that was directly to the right of abby's body.
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Curryong »

Oh No! Do you think it was on the bed rail at the top of the bed? I took it as meaning at the foot. I wish the dear doctor would have been a bit clearer, or supplied a drawing, diagram or something!
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Re: All About Abby

Post by Catbooks »

i think it was the rail across the side of the bed, where abby's body was found. usually bed rail means the parts that connect the head and foot boards :)

it makes sense that's where it was, too, because that's where the majority of all of the other blood was.

a diagram would have been great! or at least clearer, more detailed notes. and photos!
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