Breaks in the Pattern

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:21 pm

i'm not a fan of mystery novels, but someone convinced me there was one i'd enjoy, and he was right. it was the daughter of time, by josephine tey.

if you haven't read it, it's about a detective who's laid up in the hospital for a good long while, and gets bored out of his head, so starts investigating very old cases. he gets intrigued by a portrait of richard the third, and ends up proving richard actually didn't murder his nephews. from what i understand, the book caused quite a stir amongst historians at the time. i don't know if that's changed.

anyway, the character was dealing with an even colder case than we are, and something he said has stuck with me. it was: look for the breaks in the patterns. patterns of movement, behavior, things that are known and verifiable. i thought it'd be interesting if we tried this with this case. maybe it'd be helpful.

putting my head into the ruby cameron/david theory probably has me longing for something concrete.

so, here's what i can think of. add whatever known breaks in the pattern you can think of - things that are out-of-the-norm behavior - and maybe a clear overview will form.

- emma goes on a two-week trip, leaving lizzie alone with abby and andrew.

- lizzie stops at new bedford and rents a hotel room, despite new bedford being close enough to come home. (i'm assuming it was unusual for her to rent a hotel room this close to home.)

- uncle morse comes to visit, invited by andrew. he didn't visit often, and this time he came without even a change of clothing or toothbrush.

- abby goes to dr. bowen across the street, concerned that the family is being poisoned.

- lizzie has a very strange conversation with alice russell the night before the murders, talking about foreboding, poisoning, and worried about someone burning the house down over their heads. since alice didn't say lizzie had said anything like this before, i'm assuming this is a break in lizzie's pattern.

that's all i can think of at the moment.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:37 pm

I'm going to have a good long think about this, so these are just my jumbled thoughts on your list at the moment.

Don't get me started on that tyrant King Richard III!

Emma goes on rare trip. Yes, a definite break in the pattern. She intended to stay the summer at Fairhaven.( that decision might be reflective of terrible tensions at home.)

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:53 pm

I'm going to have a good long think about this, so these are just my jumbled thoughts on your list at the moment.

Don't get me started on that tyrant King Richard III!

Emma goes on rare trip. Yes, a definite break in the pattern. She intended to stay the summer at Fairhaven.( that decision might be reflective of terrible tensions at home.)

Lizzie rents a hotel room. Yes, seems strange, but of course we don't know whether she was in the habit of doing that when going to and fro. Perhaps her odd demeanour at Marion, not wanting to speak, joke etc might be considered a break in her usual pattern.

Uncle Morse comes to stay. Yes, he hardly ever came, and as you know I think he was the trigger for what happened. As for him travelling light, he was a bit of a grub. Wore his shirts until they were filthy and then tossed them.

Yes, for Abby thinking she'd been poisoned, whether by adulterated produce or other.

Lizzie's conversation was certainly strange and a break in the pattern, whether by design or not.

Going away to think!

Sorry about the above post. I got distracted and pushed the submit button before time!

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:33 pm

*laughs* sorry about the richard the iii thing, but you might really enjoy the book. it's very convincing! so convincing, historians took it seriously and reevaluated their long-held positions. don't forget, the tudors were in power after richard, and had a vested interest in painting him very black. things aren't as they are now, as far as news and reporting. there's a word for this, which essentially means propaganda, but more so back in the day before everyone had access to newspapers and so forth. tey uses it, but i forget the word now.

i didn't know emma had intended to stay the entire summer at fairhaven. thanks for that. hmm, an even greater break in her pattern than i'd thought.

yes, her odd behavior at marion, if she was telling alice the truth. i don't know if anyone else present noticed and corroborated it.

i didn't know that uncle morse was in the habit of wearing his shirts until they were too filthy to be washed, and then tossed them. what is the source for that? we do know that he wasn't in the habit of visiting, and when he did, bringing nothing with him.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:00 pm

I read Alison Weir's 'The Princes in the Tower' twenty years ago and was later convinced, after reading Josephine Tye's book 'Daughter of Time' (I couldn't remember Josephine's book title, so long ago) and feeling doubtful. Remember, Richard had means, motive and opportunity!
As for Uncle John's filthy shirts, I'm sure I read it on the Forum. I'll try and look it up. I know I must source more, (from reputable sites!)
Back to thinking about breaks in the pattern, but nothing, apart from what you posted is coming up for me at the moment. Would Lizzie's probable quest for poison at the pharmacy count?

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:51 pm

I won't link it, but there is a very good thread called 'What do you think about John Morse?' in Page 3 of the topics, and in a post by Kat there is a joke about Morse's shirts. It's an interesting thread, with an attachment, again posted by Kat, on Lizzie and her lawyers sending the detective Hanscom to investigate her uncle, in late August 1892! Now, I'm off, as I know I'm completely off topic!

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:37 am

The front door had three locks, the middle one was a 'night lock' that needed a key to open it from either side. It was usually opened by Lizzie early in the morning, and re-locked before she went to bed at night. The day of the murders, Lizzie didn't unlock it. Bridget had to fool with it to let Andrew in b/c she assumed it was already open. She got frustrated, let out a little expletive which Lizzie heard and laughed at. This is a break in the usual pattern. I used this to argue that Franz's theory of a man knocking on the front door then his accomplice slipping past Abby and running upstairs unseen wouldn't have worked b/c no one had opened the front door that day before Andrew came home.

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:20 am

that lock on the front door they only used at night and lizzie usually unlocked, but didn't that morning. good one, that's a definite break in the pattern.

i'm trying to think of any others that happened before the murders and am coming up empty.

well, okay, these perhaps go back too far, but lizzie stops calling abby mother. 5 years prior to the murders.

emma and lizzie stop eating their meals with the elder bordens. not sure when that started, but quite a while before the murders.

curryong, thanks for bring up that john morse thread. i hadn't read it and it was very interesting. loved reading that newspaper article on john morse that kat transcribed! i'm not sure how much credibility to give it, because the author describes someone morose and unpleasant to be around, yet it's obvious many people liked uncle john and enjoyed his company. he was welcomed at many people's homes, not only for short visits, but to stay and live with them. but surely some of what the author wrote is true.

if it's true that uncle john basically wore the same clothes until they became too soiled or were worn out, then it doesn't seem odd that he brought no change of clothing with him. but did he usually bring a toothbrush, or some kind of articles, with him when he travelled?

i was amused to read how much like andrew john morse was, particularly about how closed-fisted he was with money. but also scrupulously honest. that's the impression i've always had of andrew. no wonder they were friends and andrew sought out and trusted morse's business advice!

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:17 pm

i forgot to respond to you, curryong, about adding lizzie's possible/probable going to bence's to try to buy the prussic acid. i didn't add it because there's some degree of doubt about it, and it was thrown out of court.

although i can't see how it's possible that lizzie, who'd lived 2-short blocks away from the pharmacy for 20 years, at a time when people walked as a main mode of transportation, could not know about the existence of bence's. so i have to conclude she's lying. but was she lying because it looked bad for her, the main suspect, even if she didn't try to buy the poison, or because she did try to buy it? i'm not sure.

that does bring me to another break in the pattern, a couple of years prior to the murders. it may not be at all related, but i'll post it anyway.

sometime around the time bridget was hired (not sure if it was right before or soon afterwards), over two years before the murders, andrew got rid of their horse and carriage. so the bordens no longer had any of their own means to travel, except on foot or hiring a hack. or by train. he may have done this when lizzie was off in europe, i don't know that for certain either way.

my guess is andrew got rid of the horse and carriage (no doubt selling them) as another way to cut costs. why keep a horse, having to spend the money to buy the hay, pay for it to be shod, possibly vet bills, and any maintenance that might need to be done to the carriage if he didn't need to? abby's half-sister was within easy walking distance, as was where he needed to go to conduct his business.

but emma and lizzie may have felt, and probably did feel, very differently about no longer having a ready mode of transportation to go any kind of distance. he would not be one to want to shell out money to hire a hack very often. if they wanted to, they'd have had to pay for it out of their allowances. they would have felt even more confined than they had before, and resentful of it.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:30 pm

I think all the suggestions are excellent, Possum's one about the locks too, that's a definite break in the pattern. I think John Morse was definitely like Emma in that he liked company around. He might have been a bit too talkative. Apparently he was fascinated by the subject of life after death and would go and sit in the shop of a friend of his for hours to chat about it!
I keep coming up blank about breaks in the pattern. If we are going pretty far back, what about Andrew killing the pigeons in the barn? To an animal lover like Lizzie you would think it would be upsetting, but it's not really a break, is it?

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:16 pm

yes! i posted that on the emma thread after reading that article on uncle morse, how similar they were. he even had two farms with houses on them, yet preferred to travel around and live with others. that's funny about him being a bit of a chatterbox! i wouldn't have guessed that about him. isn't it weird how much more we know about him than emma?

the killing of the pigeons was a kind of break in the pattern, i guess. didn't he say he did it because boys were breaking into the barn to go up to the pigeons? whether that was true or not, we don't know. i don't even know why they kept pigeons, come to think of it. *were* they lizzie's only pets? did andrew raise them for squab? it wouldn't be like him to keep them without there being a practical reason. if they were kept as pets, it would have been very upsetting to lizzie. if kept for a practical reason, as for squab for the dinner table, probably not.

just remembered another one. the daytime burglary of andrew and abby's room, and andrew locking their door afterwards. yet, weirdly, keeping the key in full view on the mantle.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:35 am

The dividing of the house following the daylight robbery, so that the older couple used one set of stairs to go to their bedroom and the 'girls' and any guests used another, (with, as you pointed out, Andrew's key in full view, giving a silent message,) was very much a break in the pattern (in their lives, really) wasn't it, as nothing was the same after that.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:10 am

The definition of the breaks in pattern (hope you agree) are those things that we KNOW were very unusual in the Borden family's usual routine leading up to the murders.

In the years running up to the murders we have the daylight robbery, Lizzie stopping the use of 'mother' when referring to Abby, the actual 'division' of the house, (including separate meals,) property deals between Andrew and the girls (which we know he had never done before,) and the selling of the horse and buggy.

In the weeks, days, leading up to murder we have Emma's very unusual vacation in Fairhaven, Uncle Morse coming to stay (with no luggage) maybe Lizzie's restlessness in Marion and staying in the boarding house, Lizzie's conversation with Alice Russell, Abby's suggestion to Dr Bowen of poison, and the lock being unchanged on the front door.
I think several of these are very significant with regard to what happened later.

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:23 am

yes, that's how i'm defining breaks in the pattern. it doesn't have to just be the bordens, it could also be anyone else involved :)

another one is andrew's sending lizzie off for her grand tour of europe 2 years before the murders. she was 30, past the age when families usually sent their offspring on a european tour.

and andrew giving that property to abby. i don't believe he'd ever given her anything like that before.

andrew's giving the property to the girls, and then buying it back from them (at a loss!) should count as two breaks in the pattern.

i wish there was a way to examine the actions of the family before emma left for her fairhaven vacation. something had to have happened to cause her to do that.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:37 pm

Lizzie may have been whining, moping, sulking about her life being dull and her never having travelled. Friends, including Anna Borden were arranging to go, So Andrew decided she could join them. For such a dour and penny-pinching man, Andrew certainly spent quite a lot of time conciliating and soothing his offspring, in particular Lizzie, who could be a little difficult! Didn't he ever think his wife might like to see Europe?

In 19th century Australia, most of the big squatter (Australian name for rancher) and professional families would send daughters Home (England was always referred to in those terms, even to native- born Australians) in the company of their mother. It was a very long journey, via Columbo and the Suez Canal. After going round Europe, these girls would usually be presented at Court in London and join the rest of the debutantes in doing the Season.

I used to think that Emma just wanted to get out of the simmering tensions when she proposed to go to Fairhaven for the summer, but maybe words were exchanged between Andrew and his daughters about the larger Swansea property, which, because of the wages bill for the farm help, maybe wasn't as profitable as Andrew would like. Perhaps he grumbled about it and the 'girls' took it to mean he was thinking of selling it off. Just a theory.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:10 pm

PossumPie wrote:The front door had three locks, the middle one was a 'night lock' that needed a key to open it from either side. It was usually opened by Lizzie early in the morning, and re-locked before she went to bed at night. The day of the murders, Lizzie didn't unlock it. Bridget had to fool with it to let Andrew in b/c she assumed it was already open. She got frustrated, let out a little expletive which Lizzie heard and laughed at. This is a break in the usual pattern. I used this to argue that Franz's theory of a man knocking on the front door then his accomplice slipping past Abby and running upstairs unseen wouldn't have worked b/c no one had opened the front door that day before Andrew came home.

Either it was never unlocked or the person who unlocked it purposefully relocked it. Either way, this is not part of the pattern.

Other Oddities:

• Andrew ends up with his coat as a pillow.

• Andrew is seen entering the house with a white package that seems to disappear.

• Abby has on a pair of boots that don't fit...maybe odd, maybe not.

• Emma takes a long time to come home although she may have had a lot of items to pack if her stay was to be extended.

• Dr. Bowen is burning papers during a murder investigation...what about his daughter needs disposal at that very moment? Or maybe it was a copy of the telegram he sent.

• Lizzie burns a paint stained dress (I'm old enough to remember keeping clothing for rag rugs).

• Morse is conveniently gone during the murders and then conveniently remembers numbers, names and places.

• Bridget is asked to wash windows on a hot day in August. Windows clean better in cooler weather, plus she was sick. I've always wondered if Lizzie says something like, "Mrs. Borden, last night when I visited Miss Russell she commented on how dirty our windows. She certainly is correct." To get Abby to send Bridget outside for the morning.

• Lizzie comes in and leaves her hat (supposedly) on the dining room table where lunch will soon be served. Throwing a hat on the table is about like Andrew folding his coat in the sofa.

• Lizzie has zero contact with John Morse until after the murders.

• Andrew and Abby sleep behind a locked door with a safe in Abby's dressing room and a club under the bed.<<<I'm unsure where the club comes from...just that it's in my head.

• The key is kept on the mantle where absolutely anyone would see it. Testimony is imprecise but it reads as though Dr. Bowen may know where the key is even though he's a rare caller in the home.

• Lizzie has a lot of the same dress material.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:21 pm

That is very true debbie, about the locks. Wonder who that person could have been!
The whole Borden family were oddities really, and there are some things we shall never know the answers to.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:13 pm

I found this, posted by Harry on Thread 'Prussic Acid and other Fabrications.'

Boston Advertiser Oct 11th 1892. 'Mr Borden talked with Secretary Rounseville of the Manufacturers Association shortly before his death' (actually only a few days before) 'about his family affairs. He told Mr Rounseville that he was not living on his farm during the summer because there was so much trouble in his family that he did not feel like going...'

This report and versions very like it were also published in other newspapers.

In the Jennings' notebook 'i. Rounseville told Phillips that Mr Borden speaking to him about going over to his farm for the summer said his family affairs were such this summer that he would be unable to go.'

I think that Andrew's (and Abby's) usual stay on the farm being postponed was a definite break from the pattern, and I just wonder if somehow the 'girls' had got a hint of a possible transfer of the Swansea property away from them, and that's what John Morse's visit was really about.
Andrew seems to have been anxious/dispirited about his daughters' probable reaction to any changes to the Swansea property and was probably in sore need of John Morse's support and advice. Maybe things had been brewing over this for some time.
Perhaps Emma both stoked Lizzie's resentment and went away herself on a long trip to show Andrew her disapproval of any transfer?

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:48 pm

Curryong wrote:That is very true debbie, about the locks. Wonder who that person could have been!
The whole Borden family were oddities really, and there are some things we shall never know the answers to.

The whole lock question was mysterious. I argued with Franz that all evidence pointed to the fact that NO ONE even opened the front door before Andrew's return. We had people leaving by side and back doors, and for Franz's theory to work, Abby had to unlock the night lock, and the other two, go outside, down the steps onto the sidewalk, while an "accomplice" of Morse sneaked behind her and into the house. Then Abby then had to go back inside and PURPOSELY re-lock the middle lock that was usually left unlocked during the daytime. Considering she was the one who was killed, I doubt she would have had a sinister reason for doing it, making the whole thing HIGHLY unlikely. My firm belief is that no one unlocked it before Bridget let Andrew in. This is suspicious b/c Lizzie was unofficially in charge of unlocking that door every morning, a fact that lead Bridget to assume it was unlocked when she tried to let Andrew in. She assumed it was unlocked, then had to unlock it when she found it still locked, causing her to say "Pshaw" (or something more vulgar.) Sometimes it is the things someone DOES NOT DO that are more suspicious than what they do...

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:01 pm

Yes Possum, and even odder, after Morse and Andrew's conversation in the sitting room on that Thursday morning, Morse later gave evidence that he went into the front hall/lobby to retrieve his hat,which was on the hall stand, before he went out.
In spite of the front door being only a couple of paces from the hall stand, John then returns to the sitting room and both men go through the kitchen so Andrew can let John out through the side door! It's as if the front door is regarded as impregnable and untouchable by the Bordens and their visitors until Lizzie chooses to come downstairs and unlock the thing!

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:49 am

andrew's coat being folded and slipped under/behind his head is a break in pattern. he usually hung it up on a hook in the dining room.

I found this, posted by Harry on Thread 'Prussic Acid and other Fabrications.'

Boston Advertiser Oct 11th 1892. 'Mr Borden talked with Secretary Rounseville of the Manufacturers Association shortly before his death' (actually only a few days before) 'about his family affairs. He told Mr Rounseville that he was not living on his farm during the summer because there was so much trouble in his family that he did not feel like going...'

This report and versions very like it were also published in other newspapers.

In the Jennings' notebook 'i. Rounseville told Phillips that Mr Borden speaking to him about going over to his farm for the summer said his family affairs were such this summer that he would be unable to go.'

very interesting. good find! not summering on the farm was a break in the pattern. they usually did that every year, right?

it's possible lizzie unlocked the door and then locked it again by the time andrew returned home. but i can't think of any reason for it, unless she did it before killing abby, to make sure andrew didn't come home and enter that way, buying her a little more time. otherwise it's most reasonable to think she never unlocked it that particular morning.

hmm. interesting about morse going into the front hall to get his hat, but leaving by the side door.

it just occurred to me that probably all of the bordens usually entered through the front door, because the screen door on the side was kept hooked. unless bridget or someone were near the back door to unhook it, they wouldn't be able to get in.

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:49 am

Curryong wrote:Lizzie may have been whining, moping, sulking about her life being dull and her never having travelled. Friends, including Anna Borden were arranging to go, So Andrew decided she could join them. For such a dour and penny-pinching man, Andrew certainly spent quite a lot of time conciliating and soothing his offspring, in particular Lizzie, who could be a little difficult! Didn't he ever think his wife might like to see Europe?

In 19th century Australia, most of the big squatter (Australian name for rancher) and professional families would send daughters Home (England was always referred to in those terms, even to native- born Australians) in the company of their mother. It was a very long journey, via Columbo and the Suez Canal. After going round Europe, these girls would usually be presented at Court in London and join the rest of the debutantes in doing the Season.

I used to think that Emma just wanted to get out of the simmering tensions when she proposed to go to Fairhaven for the summer, but maybe words were exchanged between Andrew and his daughters about the larger Swansea property, which, because of the wages bill for the farm help, maybe wasn't as profitable as Andrew would like. Perhaps he grumbled about it and the 'girls' took it to mean he was thinking of selling it off. Just a theory.

i think it was likely more than lizzie moping about that caused andrew to shell out the money for her to go to europe with her friends. andrew would have seen the trip as an obscene waste of money. frivolous. this was 3 years after the incident of andrew giving abby half of that house for abby's half-sister, giving the girls the other property, and lizzie no longer calling abby mother.

i wonder what else was going on around that time.

i don't think abby would have had any interest in going to europe. she was a plain woman, with plain wants and needs. she probably hadn't traveled much farther than to the swansea farms, and didn't want to. she wouldn't even have had the sort of wardrobe she'd need to go on such a trip, or any interest in acquiring it.

i also wonder what emma made of lizzie leaving for 3 months. leaving emma alone to deal with the dreaded abby. she wouldn't have likely minded being left there with andrew, but 3 months of no lizzie to commiserate with about how awful abby was no doubt grated on her. did emma avoid taking meals with the elder bordens during all that time?

maybe you're right, words were exchanged about selling or doing something with (giving it to abby?) the swansea farm, and emma withdrew to fairhaven as a way of expressing her extreme disapproval.

interesting to learn about the australian version of the american 'grand tour.' i didn't know they were usually presented at court at the end of their tours.

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:55 am

a literal break - the handleless hatchet, with the recently broken-off handle. i can see andrew wanting to keep the head of such a hatchet, same as picking up and keeping that broken lock on the way home that day. but as far as i know, no one could explain when or how the handle came to be broken off.

the guy who came from the farm and was the one who usually used the axes and hatchets was i'm sure asked about it, and obviously didn't say he'd done it. likewise bridget. i suppose they could have been covering for themselves if they had, wanting to distance themselves from all recent hatchet activities!

but hadn't the head been dampened and then covered in wood ash, so at first it appeared as though it were merely dusty? that seems an odd thing to do and *someone* there did it.

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:25 pm

I don't want to change the subject of the thread (breaks in patterns) but this post reminds me that several months ago, I took a Saturday, and researched testimony and quotes about the 'mood of the Borden home'. So many people made mention that things were tense, Abby was mistreated by both girls, Abby was a saint for putting up with them, things were 'miserable', people stopped visiting b/c they were uncomfortable with the interactions, the family didn't eat together any more... It seemed that people who talked with Abby AND people who came and went as guests of the Bordens ALL noticed how tense and miserable it was. It wasn't just a few people remarking this, it was a lot. Now, even giving allowances for the fact that they were being asked after the Bordens were dead, and Lizzie was a suspect, it still was remarkable to me.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:19 pm

I have read some statements to newspapers etc from Abby's family and others that the daughters virtually ignored Abby, making it very uncomfortable to be with them. Even Andrew was bursting out with hints! So it was generally known all over town! Very interesting!
This is a New York Herald Report August 7th 1892. The reporter must have grabbed John Morse for a minute!

'Mr Morse admitted that there had been ill-feeling between Mrs Borden and her step-daughters but would not discuss the matter further. Lizzie, he said, was a peculiar girl, often given to fits of sullenness.'

So all that ignoring of her uncle when he visited, not writing to him though Emma did, didn't go unnoticed!

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:05 pm

Catbooks, it would be good to read what went on in the Borden home with Lizzie off to Europe. Perhaps a considerable lightening of the atmosphere with only one person's coldness for Abby to deal with. Maybe Andrew and Abby took the opportunity of some time at the farm leaving Emma to stew at no. 92!

It's really odd, (always supposing that Andrew offered,) that Emma didn't want a European trip. Perhaps, as the other girls were Lizzie's friends, church-going acquaintances, Emma felt she would be imposing on them. Perhaps she was in martyr mode! "Yes, let Lizzie go away and enjoy herself!"
On the other hand, Emma only went to Scotland when she had the money and Lizzie didn't go back at all. Maybe, because I love travel and in our times it's so easy and convenient, I'm underestimating everything!

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:20 pm

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( I've transferred a whole lot of ravings on by me about the hatchet to the appropriate thread instead of the above post!)

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:23 pm

possum, i've read things similar or the same as you mentioned, but most all of them came from abby's side of the family, so i wasn't clear on how much weight to give them. have you read those things said by other people?

curryong, interesting that morse said that, and so soon after the murders. it surprises me. i got the feeling he was protecting either emma or lizzie, or both. i'd also thought that while lizzie have thought uncle john something of an embarrassment, the reason she didn't go in to greet him that night was primarily about avoiding abby, and her father, not him. did emma write to him before the murders? did lizzie? i know emma kept in touch with him afterwards, but i'm not sure what the relationship was before that.

there's so much information i wish we had access to! letters, that were no doubt destroyed because it was the custom. very annoying (for us) that everyone was so tight-lipped, even people who weren't directly involved.

i would think that although emma was the original source of ill will between lizzie and abby (and later andrew), she would have been far less expressive of her feelings than lizzie. so maybe it was more pleasant with lizzie gone, although the undercurrents would have still been palpable. did emma take her meals with them? probably she'd have made her excuses whenever possible.

i wouldn't have blamed andrew and abby for taking off for the farm! although i confess i do have some sympathy for emma, and lizzie (except for that small matter of murder, lol). andrew was part of the problem. abby, i feel, was essentially a victim of circumstance. a decent person. perhaps not the most interesting or lively conversationalist, probably quite repressed and even depressed, but a decent enough person who wished no one ill.

i wonder if lizzie's grand tour was in part andrew's way of making up to lizzie that he offered her no education. emma did go away to school, but lizzie didn't. or maybe he offered and she had no interest, having only been a middling student in high school with little interest in actual schooling, but a great deal of interest in culture.

i find it interesting that andrew offered emma any education at all, given the times.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:53 pm

I often wonder whether Emma was sent away to school in Boston because her coolness and aversion towards Abby was distressing her stepmother and not because of furthering Emma's schooling so much. The Ferry St home was already top-heavy with relatives as well. Perhaps Andrew thought such a move would give everyone a bit of breathing space and would give Abby some time to bond with young Lizzie.

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:15 pm

i hadn't thought of that. i just thought andrew was unusually forward-thinking for the times, and had the means.

i'm not all that familiar with the residents of the ferry street house, except that they were all considerably older than emma or lizzie.

we do know that during the time emma was away, and i think even before, abby and lizzie did bond to some degree. there is that silver cup abby gave lizzie, with lizzie's name engraved on it.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:46 pm

I can't remember (have to go and check) how many people lived in the Ferry St House before the Bordens moved out. I know that uncle Hiram Harrington lived there and so did John Morse for over a year at one point, too. It seems to have had an hospitable sort of atmosphere, not like the Borden residence.
The silver cup that was given to Lizzie had Abby's name mis-spelled Abbey, didn't it? Maybe Abby spelt her name two ways, who knows!

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:11 am

PossumPie wrote:I don't want to change the subject of the thread (breaks in patterns) but this post reminds me that several months ago, I took a Saturday, and researched testimony and quotes about the 'mood of the Borden home'. So many people made mention that things were tense, Abby was mistreated by both girls, Abby was a saint for putting up with them, things were 'miserable', people stopped visiting b/c they were uncomfortable with the interactions, the family didn't eat together any more... It seemed that people who talked with Abby AND people who came and went as guests of the Bordens ALL noticed how tense and miserable it was. It wasn't just a few people remarking this, it was a lot. Now, even giving allowances for the fact that they were being asked after the Bordens were dead, and Lizzie was a suspect, it still was remarkable to me.

Then I'm going to add another break in the pattern:

• Bridget claims under oath that there were no problems within the family and also that Lizzie and Emma ate late breakfast alone but the family ate lunch and dinner (dinner and supper) together.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:18 am

Curryong wrote:Yes Possum, and even odder, after Morse and Andrew's conversation in the sitting room on that Thursday morning, Morse later gave evidence that he went into the front hall/lobby to retrieve his hat,which was on the hall stand, before he went out.
In spite of the front door being only a couple of paces from the hall stand, John then returns to the sitting room and both men go through the kitchen so Andrew can let John out through the side door! It's as if the front door is regarded as impregnable and untouchable by the Bordens and their visitors until Lizzie chooses to come downstairs and unlock the thing!

I live in the rural Midwest and it's totally common for everyone other than strangers to go directly to the kitchen door or through the adjoining garage and into the house from there. However, that doesn't explain leaving from the side door and coming in through the front. So that's an odd pattern:

• Andrew leaves via the kitchen but comes home through the front door. His habit was to come in via the front entrance but did he always leave through the kitchen?

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:29 am

A good long look at the motives of some of the people quoted would have to be undertaken, I think, as well as Bridget's motives for saying what she did in court. However, didn't Bridget want to leave once or twice and Abby persuaded her to stay by offering higher wages? Of course, Bridget wanting to go might have been just restlessness, but I don't think it would have been overwork, or couldn't stand her employers who were terrible to her, or any of the usual reasons for servants wanting to depart.

Back to checking Borden habits on front door use before I comment!. Yes, many close friends, family do often come round to side/kitchen doors here too.
At the moment I think the use of the side door and the front door were pretty interchangeable in the Borden household except for Bridget who doesn't seem to have used the front door to enter or leave at all.
It was Emma and/or Bridget's duty (according to Emma's testimony) to make sure all doors were locked at night before retiring. In those days that was usually the 'master of the house's' role (or butler in large households) so that was quite unusual.
What is unusual too, as Possum pointed out in an above post, the front door remained locked for most of the morning until Andrew's arrival home. That too, was unusual.
However, Miss Lizzie was seemingly never the earliest of risers, and, as it was her duty to unlock the front door in the mornings, you would think that Andrew would have become used to leaving by the side door every morning unless he wanted to deal with bolts and locks every day.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:59 am

Bridget Cross examination by Mr Robinson June 7th 1893.

Q. It was a pleasant family to be in?
A. I don't know how the family was; I got along all right.
Q. You never saw anything out of the way?
A. No sir.
Q. You never saw any conflict in the family?
A. No sir.
Q. Never saw the least-any quarreling or anything of that kind?
A. No sir, I did not.
Q. Now the daughters, Miss Emma and Miss Lizzie, usually came to the table, did they not, as the father and mother did?
A. No sir, they did not.
Q. I thought you said they did.
A. No sir, they did not.
Q. Didn't you say this morning that they ate at the table with the family?
A. Nobody asked me whether they did or not.
Q. You did not say so this morning?
A. No sir, I don't remember anybody asked that question.
Q. Didn't they eat with the family?
A. Not all the time.
Q. But they did from time to time and day to day, did they not?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What?
A. Sometimes the family-most of the time they did not eat with their father and mother.
Q. Did they get up in the morning as early as the father and mother?
A. No sir.
Q. So they had their breakfast a little later?
A. Not all the time—sometimes. But sometimes they would be down with the family, more times they would not.
Q. How was it at dinner?
A. Sometimes at dinner; a good many more times they were not.
Q. Sometimes they were out?
A. I don't know where they were; I could not tell.
Q. You don't know whether out or in?
A. Sometimes I knew they were in the house.
Q. Were there sometimes when one would be at the table and the other was not?
A. Yes sir.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:21 am

Curryong wrote:... The silver cup that was given to Lizzie had Abby's name mis-spelled Abbey, didn't it? Maybe Abby spelt her name two ways, who knows!

I found a picture of the silver cup in the topic titled, Rebello’s Silver Cup – Half Empty or Full of It?

Here is the link: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1119

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:29 am

Oh, thank you twinsrwe, that is so kind of you!
So, it was Abbie not Abby. It's a very pretty engraved cup, but a bit of an odd gift for a child of eight, (more the sort of thing for baptisms or confirmations, which we have in the Anglican Church when a child is about twelve.) Lizzie might have preferred a new doll!

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:17 pm

twinsrwe wrote:
Curryong wrote:... The silver cup that was given to Lizzie had Abby's name mis-spelled Abbey, didn't it? Maybe Abby spelt her name two ways, who knows!
I found a picture of the silver cup in the topic titled, Rebello’s Silver Cup – Half Empty or Full of It?

Here is the link: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1119

that is a very interesting thread, which i hadn't seen before. thanks, twins :)

it looks like the mystery of the cup was never solved. i imagine someone did contact rebello and ask him what the story on the cup was, but never posted the response. i wouldn't think he'd have included it in the book if he had doubts about it being from abby to lizzie borden, not just from any abby to a lizzie.

i'd taken it for granted that the cup really was a gift from abby to lizzie, but that was long ago, before i started to realize (just this year, in fact!) that there are a lot of things i'd taken for granted as fact in this case, that may not be true at all. like that august 4, 1892 was an extremely hot day. it's disconcerting.

i also didn't know that lizbeth's middle name is misspelled on her grave! but allen says it is in the thread you linked to, and i can't imagine allen would be mistaken about that.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:50 pm

I wouldn't put anything past stonemasons, having seen some early gravestones here and in England. I saw a convict's gravestone in Tasmania where the stonemason came to almost the edge of the gravestone with one word, realised he didn't have enough room, and put the two end letters of the word on the next line!

IF they were our Lizzie and Abby's names on the cup, as the earlier posters were commenting Andrew would not have been pleased and would probably have demanded a discount! It's strange that Rebello didn't air on the side of caution, but he may have seen some provenance that came with the cup that satisfied him. Who knows?

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:56 pm

You're welcome, Curryong and Catbooks.

A couple of things, in the link I posted above, which I found interesting was:

1. The size of the cup!
I never in my wildest dreams, did I think that cup would be so small!!! (4" high with a 3" circumference decorated and adorned with raised grape vines at the base of the cup). Using the following link, scroll down to, Method 1 of 2: Using the Diameter ("c" represents the circumference of the circle, and "d" represents its diameter): http://www.wikihow.com/Calculate-the-Ci ... f-a-Circle

2. The spelling of Mrs. Borden’s first name.
Mrs. Borden’s headstone has her name spelled: ‘Abby’. However, Allen posted that Mrs. Borden’s first name was spelled, ‘Abbie” throughout the entire book by Edwin H. Porter, titled, The Fall River Tragedy: A History of the Borden Murders. Mr. Porter was the Police Reporter for the Fall River Globe at the time of the murders and trial. In another forum thread, Harry posted the following:

From the Knowlton Papers (Glossary A)

PORTER, EDWIN H. 1864 - 1904: born in Glasgow, Kentucky, son of Columbus and Margaret (Davis) Porter. Educated in the public schools of his native Glasgow, he was first employed as a teacher and, later, learned the trade of typesetting. He traveled extensively and for a time was employed by the Providence Telegram in Providence, Rhode Island. From there he went to Fall River, Massachusetts, to become city editor of the Tribune until its dissolution. He was then engaged by the Daily Globe, where he was on staff for a time with Thatcher T. Thurston. His specialty was police work and he became the correspondent to the Boston Herald for his district. He married Miss Winnie Leonard of Fall River in 1891. At the conclusion of the Borden murder trial, his book, The Fall River Tragedy: A History of the Borden Murders was published. He was in the city of Fall River at the time of his death."

At the time of the murders he resided at 10 Rodman (renumbered to 111 in 1896), which is about a block and a half south of 92 Second. The 1896 Fall River City Directory still shows him working for the FR Daily Globe as a reporter. At the time of his death, as Joe said, he lived on South Main.

Len Rebello wrote a very interesting piece on him in the January 1994 LBQ. In part it reads:

"There have been accounts that Porter left Fall River in haste after his book was published. Porter supposedly disappeared from sight and was never to be heard of again. Arnold Brown in Lizzie Borden: The Legend, the Truth, the Final Chapter, wrote: "Porter himself, like most everyone connected with the case, disappeared from sight" (p. 106). Brown further made the assumption that Porter was "paid to disappear, just as legend says Bridget Sullivan was. (Porter) was never heard from again" (Brown, p. 106). Was Porter's presumed and imagined disappearance a mystery that somehow implied Lizzie's involvement to suppress the book?
Edwin H. Porter and his family, like Miss Borden of Maplecroft, never left Fall River as some writers and Borden enthusiasts would have us believe.

Porter continued to work as a reporter for the Fall River Daily Globe and correspondent for The Boston Herald. At this time, he and his family lived at 704 South Main Street. Porter may have disappeared occasionally but for a viable reason. He had contracted tuberculosis (according to his Death Certificate) and, according to his obituary had sought treatment several times at the state sanitarium at Rutland.

Only his family and most intimate friends knew of his illness. When not confined to his home, Porter continued to work for the Globe and did so until his health had worsened on New Year's Day in 1904. Edwin H. Porter died at his home in Fall River on Sunday, February 28, 1904. He was thirty-nine years old. Surviving him were his widow, Winifred, and two daughters, Florence (12) and Winifred (5). ..... He was buried at St. Patrick's Cemetery in Fall River."

Rebello goes on to say Porter's daughter, Winifred, also contracted T.B. and passed away in 1919 at the age of 20.

Source: viewtopic.php?t=2312

Also, if anyone is interested, Stefani has a free download of Edwin H. Porter’s The Fall River Tragedy: A History Of The Borden Murders at: http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... dBooks.htm

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:27 pm

Oh, how sad that both Porter and his daughter Winifred died so young from T.B! That disease was the great killer in the 19th, early 20th centuries. I had read statements about Porter, that he had disappeared, been paid off, etc. And all the time he was fighting a deadly disease!
Interesting about the wee cup, which is very pretty. I still think Lizzie would have liked a toy or doll better. I suppose we assume that Abby's name was spelled that way because so many books have said so. Wonder how it was spelled on the family gravestone. I'll have to check.

Later. Abby Durfee, but the stonemasons might not have consulted her family.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:34 pm

Catbooks wrote:… i also didn't know that lizbeth's middle name is misspelled on her grave! but allen says it is in the thread you linked to, and i can't imagine allen would be mistaken about that.

Allen, is absolutely correct. Lizbeth’s middle name is Andrew, NOT Andrews. See pic of the side of the monument which list Andrew and Abby’s children below:

(8f) Cemetery Photo - 10 ~ Borden Grave Marker - 2.jpg

Lizzie Borden (Borden's Graves) & More at Oak Grove Cemetery
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwuS-aeZymI

The Borden Monument
http://friendsofoakgrovecemetery.org/20 ... -monument/

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:50 pm

Curryong wrote:Oh, how sad that both Porter and his daughter Winifred died so young from T.B! That disease was the great killer in the 19th, early 20th centuries. I had read statements about Porter, that he had disappeared, been paid off, etc. And all the time he was fighting a deadly disease!
Interesting about the wee cup, which is very pretty. I still think Lizzie would have liked a toy or doll better. I suppose we assume that Abby's name was spelled that way because so many books have said so. Wonder how it was spelled on the family gravestone. I'll have to check.

Later. Abby Durfee, but the stonemasons might not have consulted her family.

I agree, it is sad that Mr. Porter and his daughter died so young.

I also agree, that Lizzie may have been happier with a toy or a doll. However, for whatever reason, she apparently kept the cup. Being 8 years old when it was given to her, she probably did treasure it. Unfortunately, it is unknown what the occasion was that Abby got the silver cup for Lizzie. Actually, it is unknown if Abbie and Lizzie were our Abby and Lizzie. Yet another mystery!

Here is a pic of the Borden Monument which list Andrew and his two wives:

(8f) Cemetery Photo - 9 ~ Borden Grave Marker - 1.jpg

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:41 pm

twins, there's something off about the dimensions of that silver cup. if it truly had a 3" circumference (which would only be about an inch in diameter), it couldn't possibly look the way it does in the photos. the proportions would be wildly different - much skinnier.

if the height of it is correct, and it's 4 inches high, just eyeballing it, the width (including diameter) is a bit over half of the height, so more than 2 inches in diameter.

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:57 pm

darn it, this is the first time in my life i wish i'd paid attention in algebra class! or had my old proportion wheel from when i did art.

but, doing my best. using the photo, from the bottom of the cup to the top lip, it measures about 2 3/8ths of an inch. width of the mouth of the cup is just a little over 1 1/2 inches. don't remember how to convert 3/8ths, so used 2.25 or 2 and 1/4 inches for height and 1.5 for width.

that converts to a 4 inch height with a 2.67 inch width/diameter cup.

added: ha! figured out how to convert 3/8ths. so the real dimensions are 4 inches high by 2.53 inches wide/diameter (at the lip). if the 4 inch height measurement is correct.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:22 pm

Well done, Catbooks, you did that so well! I was always hopeless at algebra too. We have metric weights and measures in Australia but it wouldn't have made any difference! It is a very pretty little cup but I'd still like to know the provenance of it.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:38 pm

Catbooks wrote:twins, there's something off about the dimensions of that silver cup. if it truly had a 3" circumference (which would only be about an inch in diameter), it couldn't possibly look the way it does in the photos. the proportions would be wildly different - much skinnier.

if the height of it is correct, and it's 4 inches high, just eyeballing it, the width (including diameter) is a bit over half of the height, so more than 2 inches in diameter.

Yes, I know. Edisto had already pointed out that the measurements given by Len Rebello seemed 'peculiar'. Did you not read that part of his post?

Partial post submitted by Edisto on Fri Jun 17, 2005.

As I read the description, something "jumped out" at me. The measurements given seemed peculiar. I cut a strip of paper four inches wide and made a tube the supposed dimensions of the cup. A tube having a 3-inch CIRCUMFERENCE (as opposed to diameter) is a very small tube indeed and wouldn't hold much liquid. Sitting on a base, it would be a terribly easy thing for a child to knock over, too. My next thought was that the description was meant to say that the cup's DIAMETER was three inches. I cut another four-inch-wide strip and made a second tube -- this one having a diameter of three inches. Somewhat better. A cup this size would probably hold more than a measuring cup of liquid. However, sitting on its base, it would have a "squatty" appearance that wouldn't match the pictures.

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:13 pm

arg, algebra, lol! i'd love to know the provenance of it too. seems strange there were no follow-up posts.

yes, i had read that. but later on in the thread someone said the measurements were confirmed, i believe by rebello, and it was then dropped.

but it's very clear just by looking at the proportions of it in the photo, the measurements have to be off. the diameter can't be 3 inches; that doesn't work proportionately any more than a 3-inch circumference does.

edited to add: this reminds me of that old saying, 'who're you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?'

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:39 pm

Whatever! You addressed your post to me - I didn't have anything to do with posting the measurements of that cup. All I did was post the link to this thread.

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:44 pm

why are you taking this personally? you posted, i commented on your post, tried to suss out the actual measurements of the cup. that's it.