What Time Did Abby Really Die?

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irina
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by irina »

Look at the bric a brac on the dresser top~and none of it knocked off or even knocked down on the floor! I think a doctor testified that the space between bed and dresser was 34 inches. That isn't very much and considering that Abby was "stout" it doesn't seem right when looking at the pictures as it seems her body would have completely filled the space.

Anyway that the items on the dresser weren't knocked down apparently, might tell us something abut the killer. For instance the killer was small and compact (I can hear the Lizzie did it people murmuring agreement), or the killer was careful or the angle of swinging the hatchet avoided the dresser or even the killer bumping the dresser. I have really long arms. I can't imagine doing what the killer did in that small space without knocking stuff off the dresser, if not in process of swinging the hatchet, then in simply bumping into it. Unless Dr. Bowen or someone tidied up the dresser top so Abby wouldn't look like a bad housekeeper. I wouldn't be surprised at that.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Bronte »

I was thinking the same thing all of the items are too perfect you would think something would have been knocked to the floor or tossed around on the dresser during such a violent attack..I also found myself feeling sorry for Abby here was a lady who obviously took such pride in her home and to be slaughtered like that while tidying up the room for her next guests is really sad..
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

The only person who said Abby was expecting guests on the following Monday was Lizzie. Nobody came forward to say it was them and it doesn't seem to have been mentioned again. There's been a bit of a running joke that Abby was up in the guest room fumigating the place as Uncle John was such a grub! (No luggage, not even a toothbrush.) Presumably he did have a comb in his pocket.

When I first joined I suggested that it was weird that the dressing table didn't get one chip, but people who were used to hatchets, like PossumPie and others, said that if the body was down on the floor blows wouldn't necessarily be wild side ones. This would be especially so if the killer was close (as in actually sitting on Abby's butt) as a hatchet is smaller and easier to handle than say an axe. The strokes would then be just up and down. There was blood spotting on the dressing table, though.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by debbiediablo »

Did anyone ever explore with someone other than Lizzie as to whether Abby was in the habit of wearing two aprons, especially when not engaged in truly dirty work.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

We don't know whether she was wearing two aprons, debbie, or even one! Remember the squabble about that with FactFonder, or, as you once called her, FactFlouncer? I don't know whether Bridget was ever questioned on it. I'll have to look up her testimony.

My guess is that they were in fact two bloodied and disgusting surgical aprons, used when the stomachs were removed later in the day and then thrown out, and (for reasons best known to themselves), whoever wrote down the list of items shoved the aprons in the middle of Abby's bits and pieces- drawers, dress switch, bit of skull, etc etc. in spite of what I said to FactFinder. I'll have a look, though.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

Haven't been able to find anything about Bridget being asked about Abby's apron(s) yet, but get this, from Knowlton's closing remarks at the prelim.

''It has been a source of great disappointment that we have not been able to find the apron with which she must have covered her dress, and which must contain blood, just as surely as did the shoes. It is a source of regret that we have not been able to find the packet, but she had fifteen minutes in which to conceal it".

It's clear they suspected that Lizzie was wearing an apron to murder Abby (which makes me think that the aprons that were buried were not female aprons, or, they didn't check the bloodied clothing carefully!)

BUT 'WE HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO FIND THE PACKET'. WHAT PACKET?? Andrew's packet that was in his hand when he came home??
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Bronte »

I just cannot place anyone as the killer but Lizzie I used to lean towards the "stranger" theory until I read about how she had no fear to stay in that house alone while she sent Bridget to get help..I am sorry but she just witnessed her beloved father with his face half chopped off and she was not freaking out over that nor was she afraid that the killer could still be in the house and could off her before anyone arrived on the scene.. I am also leaning towards greed as the reason for the murders instead of any kind of mental or sexual abuse..I also think that if Emma was not in on the plan then I do feel that deep down she knew that Lizzie was guilty.Maybe she was secretly afraid of Lizzie and that was why she played the roll of the loyal sister before and certainly after the murders..
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

Yes, I would be away from that house after discovering my father butchered faster than my little high button boots could carry me! Away to Mrs Churchill or the Bowens or Kellys, anywhere!

Emma is an enigma to most people, I think. If Lizzie's the killer exactly how much did her sister know or suspect is one of those questions that we shall never know the answer to.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by debbiediablo »

Potentially we have two aprons, one that was worn by Abby and one that was worn by Lizzie and then tied onto Abby's body??? I've not been a big fan of Andrew's coat being worn to cover the murderer, but it's not beyond possibility. And what works, works. People are creatures of pattern. Perhaps Lizzie wore Abby's clothing, too, and then placed it on the corpse...this might even explain the oversized boots that we're all laughed about. Maybe Lizzie wore them, too, and then slipped them onto Abby's feet. All of this would explain why Abby's body just doesn't look 'right' to me...instead of a fall, the last movement for Abby Borden may have been a posthumous rock and roll. So what comes home midday in a packet? It's late and this is bordering on stream of consciousness.

I have to smile at 'FactFonder' :smiliecolors:
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by irina »

I take Knowlton's use of the word packet to refer to any bloody clothing/items he suspected Lizzie had to get rid of or hide. Sounds right in the context. I'll have to look at it closer.

We discussed awhile ago that the killer likely held Abby by the hair with one hand while chopping with the other. That could have something to do with her position. Also while I understand the idea that hatchet blows need not be wide and arcing, as I recall the blows came from "left to right" which is not up and down. The right side of Abby's head was destroyed with left to right blows? If she had simply fallen I would expect perhaps the left side to be damaged more or the absolute back of her head.

In the small area there is for the killer to work I could fairly well say I would bump the dresser, this knocking over pictures, or in some way I would disarrange it. I am about 5'9" and have long arms and legs like a man. I am fairly thin. I just know myself and I can almost feel myself bumping into the dresser unless I got out over the bed.

Speaking of the bed I should put this on the thread about what would it take to solve the case, but I am tired. Recently there have been mentions of DNA and what could be tested. I think the FRHS has the bedspread from the guest room, do they not? There are smears of blood thereon, right? It would be interesting to see if those are all the same type, potentially Abby's or if they are more than one type, as in the killer was injured, etc. Possibly there would be stray cells from the killer wiping his/her hands on the spread. It wouldn't hurt for a blood pattern expert to look at that spread too. I have read there were a couple of bloody "smooches" on the spread. What the heck is a smooch? A hand wipe? A hand wipe might show size of hand. A splash? A brushing off as a bloody garment brushed against the spread? Might there be fibers in the smooches, like say woolen fibers from a man's sleeve? The hatchet brushing the fabric? There was a "tuft of hair" with a bit of skull attached on top of the bedspread at the time of the crime. Dis this leave any pattern that would indicate if it was thrown, flicked of the hatchet, deliberately placed, etc.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by irina »

When I was first here I got in a bit of discussion about if Abby was somewhat violated by an intruder. (I was basing this on Dr. Bowen supposedly pulling her skirts down a bit for decency. I never found a source for that BTW.) Folks here kind of dissuaded me from this line of thinking and that's OK. Maybe I was reading more into it, BUT if her skirts were a bit up, maybe exposing ankles (OMG) or (God forbid) calves~all of which were called "limbs" in Victorian times because the word leg was obscene and even piano legs weren't called that~maybe the killer did do it.

It is generally thought the killer straddled her body or "sat on her butt" or something like that. What if the killer straddled one leg? In other words scooted his/her foot up between her legs and carried the skirts forward? What if the killer didn't exactly straddle the whole body? How might that affect the general idea that he/she had Abby's hair presumably in the left hand while killing with the right? Abby's feet/legs look a bit farther from the edge of the bed than her head/shoulders. Was the killer closer to the bed than dresser? Is that why the dresser items were not disturbed? Does it matter? Can we learn anything from any of this? I doubt it would give us any idea of WHO the killer was but it might give us an idea of the size of the killer. Did the killer lean his/her right side against the bed for leverage perhaps? Could he/she have kneeled on Abby's back?
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

In the 'Fudge Head Abby' thread from 2008 the possible positions the killer took was discussed. Shelley, who had been a tour guide at the Borden B and B, made a few insightful comments about how she got guests to stage re-enactments of the attack on Abby and the different approaches men and women took when performing that task. I'll have to see if I can drag it up from the depths!

Later: Got it!

You see, as Shelley says, and I agree, women are natural squatters! I have quite obviously never murdered anyone (pause for evil cackle) much less using a hatchet! However, I don't think that I (at 5ft tall and plumpish, though not fat) would be standing bent over, chopping downwards. It would seem very awkward to me. I know those who believe Lizzie to be innocent won't see it that way, but for the life of me I can't imagine a male stranger not feeling extremely confined in that 33 inches of space, with scarcely room for a male foot each side of the body. As Dr Bowen inferred, Abby practically took up the entire space and he had to edge his way along. (Her ankles probably were showing as her dress seems to be rucked up somehow). An impatient and enraged male killer wouldnt be be worried about shoving the dressing table aside, or even pushing back the bed to get into a better position.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

Postby Shelley » Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:50 am
Well, I tend to approach things from a practical point of view, and like to reproduce the circumstances as nearly as possible. I find visitors on tour get a great deal of insight into the crime if I have them assume the roles of victim and killer, And after nine years of doing this almost once a week, certain patterns emerge. Men, who are not nearly as limber in the legs and are not "squatters", awkwardly try to bend over the body like a jack knife. This makes reaching down to the head on the floor and swinging the weapon very awkward and ineffective. The bed and side of the mattress gets in the way of swinging too, unless you swing in a straight up and down motion. Straddling the body helps the position somewhat, but still, the distance needed to reach the head is a long stretch.
When I give the hatchet to a woman, she instinctively wants to either put a knee in Abby's back or crouch closer to the body. When I suggest sitting on the back or squatting close over it and seizing the hair, a woman's face lights right up and they all agree THAT feels more natural and the hatchet can flash with deadly force and aim. Women are natural-born squatters. We have to be :grin:

You don't need to come to Fall River to try this. Just measure out 34 inches from the side of the bed, find a willing victim to lie face down, and place something to serve as the dresser on the other side. Try 1.bending over the body with both feet on Abby's left side, or then 2. standing while straddling the body, 3. try pressing the right knee into the back (that is a little awkward as it throws one's balance off)-or 4.sit right on your victim's back. Your "Abby" will not be able to move and struggle or get up and the head is only a short distance away. Then, with your left hand you can grab the hair to steady and control the head while chopping with great force and frenzy with the right hand. Make sure you use a GOOD friend who will go along with all of this! :shock:
Yes, I agree that Abby was probably not dead when she first hit the floor-and the killer had to make good and sure she could not get up, get away, or make much noise. Horrible.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by debbiediablo »

Imagine all the above described by Irina and Curryong but confined to a doorway...most interior doors are 32-36 inches, once in awhile 30 inches. Then move the victim off-center to the right. I do think it's likely that Bowen smoothed her clothing to make poor Abby more presentable, a terrible move from a forensic point of view but logical for a professional man of Victorian sensibilities who had a personal relationship with the victim.

The reason she doesn't look right to me is her clothing is far too neat for a woman who was bludgeoned to the floor either unconscious or nearly so, then knelt-crawled upon and whacked 18 more times, enough to cave in her skull. The murderer committed an act of undoing by placing the coat under Andrew's head. So either the murderer did the same with Abby by modestly arranging and smoothing her clothing, or Bowen did. Or someone else did.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by irina »

And because the skirts were apparently hiked up even a little I think the killer, male or female may have slipped a foot between her legs and moved forward before kneeling or whatever was done. Another possibility is that a foot was on Abby's hair. We have to always work with the "left to right" blows that damaged the right side of her head. That in itself is very odd to me and that something, hand or foot, held her hair is intriguing. I tend to think of crazed male intruder but we couldn't necessarily rule out crazed female intruder~family member -type I suppose. I really don't think Bridget did it and that her grief was honest and deep.

Women have looser ligaments in the hip area, especially if they have had children.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

I have yet to do the experiment with a friend that Shelley suggested, "Hey, do you want to be a murder victim?" but holding the hair of the potential victim with one hand does sound logical if you want to chop away at the head.

Surely a foot on the head would be a little awkward? You would have to jackknife right down to get a couple of chops in before settling yourself down on Abby's rear. Poor woman! Little did she know when she got up,that morning (feeling a bit better after the previous two days) what was going to transpire before lunch!
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by irina »

My thoughts exactly, Curryong...about what would happen before lunch.

I'm built like a man (think high fashion model appearance, though :wink: ) and I'm used to using hatchets and axes and I can't imagine doing it without knocking stuff down/off the dresser. Any chance the assailant was ahead of her, facing her feet? Has nothing to do with kneeling/squatting or not, but just a different angle.

Competent handling of a hatchet/axe is to hold the end of the handle, not close to the head as though one was pounding with a rock. It seems to me the killer was not used to competent hatchet handling. Good enough to commit a murder but not efficient IMO. Doesn't mean it was Lizzie but could have to do with why there were so many blows if it was more like a fist pounding and pounding and pounding. If it went that way I'd think the killer got quite a bit of blood on hand and forearm. Maybe that's the "smooches" on the bed cover?
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by phineas »

Curryong's post in another thread about the English murder in a similar small space that left items undisturbed is very convincing. It's possible Abby simply dropped after the first blow and a squatting killer had enough arm clearance to leave the bric-a-brac alone. Another thought it if Abby was caught from behind closer to the back of the bed for the first blow and second and stumbled forward then fell.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

The blood splatter has caused speculation over the years and of course no-one knows exactly how the first blows were struck. However, I believe the Falls River Historical Society does have the bedspread and pillow shams. These all have blood spots and smears on them.

Given that I think everyone's agreed that Abby didn't remain upright after the first couple of blows, it seems quite likely that Abby was probably very near the bed when the attack first occurred, perhaps leaning over it smoothing down the material. There are no defensive wounds but she may have staggered back, perhaps even caught a glimpse of her killer, (thus receiving the flap wound) before rapid unconsciousness and sinking to the floor.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by irina »

The way I take the flap wound to the side of Abby's head is that the assailant was facing her and aimed the first swing at the centre of her forehead/face. She ducked to the side and thus it made that particular wound. I figure she kept turning to her right and the next blow was to her back/shoulder. After that she was down. What's hard to figure is what preceded the attack. Apparently no shouting. If Lizzie did it did Abby turn aside and say, "Lizzie....why?" or "Lizzie...don't"?

From Victoria Lincoln through the various films, it is always portrayed that Lizzie brought the hatchet upstairs in a pile of laundry, barely got Abby's attention and started whacking while Abby was partially bent over, straightening the bed cover. (Like Curryong said.) But it really looks like Abby faced the assailant. If so it wasn't exactly a surprise/sneak attack. If Lizzie pre-planned to kill that day, why not sneak up on Abby and just get the job done? Some sort of less than pleasant words must have preceded the attack. Why face your victim then aim a hatchet blow at the victim's face if you didn't have a message to deliver? To me, whether Lizzie did it or someone else, there was a purpose, crazy or not, and conversation preceded the attack.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

Welcome back, irina! Hope you had a pleasant time away?
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by irina »

Thanks, Curryong. Everything went fine. I'm still kind of travelling and will be gone a bit this week.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by debbiediablo »

irina wrote:The way I take the flap wound to the side of Abby's head is that the assailant was facing her and aimed the first swing at the centre of her forehead/face. She ducked to the side and thus it made that particular wound. I figure she kept turning to her right and the next blow was to her back/shoulder. After that she was down. What's hard to figure is what preceded the attack. Apparently no shouting. If Lizzie did it did Abby turn aside and say, "Lizzie....why?" or "Lizzie...don't"?

From Victoria Lincoln through the various films, it is always portrayed that Lizzie brought the hatchet upstairs in a pile of laundry, barely got Abby's attention and started whacking while Abby was partially bent over, straightening the bed cover. (Like Curryong said.) But it really looks like Abby faced the assailant. If so it wasn't exactly a surprise/sneak attack. If Lizzie pre-planned to kill that day, why not sneak up on Abby and just get the job done? Some sort of less than pleasant words must have preceded the attack. Why face your victim then aim a hatchet blow at the victim's face if you didn't have a message to deliver? To me, whether Lizzie did it or someone else, there was a purpose, crazy or not, and conversation preceded the attack.
I think this was a premeditated crime and that Lizzie is likely guilty, but regardless, one of the main reasons the killer attacked from the front (agree with Irina on how this took place) is that the killer wanted Abby to know she was going to die and to see who was responsible. However, the killer did not want Andrew to know he was going to die and to see who was responsible.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

Someone on an early thread, can't remember who, suggested that, once Abby was down the killer could have laid across the bed on his/her stomach and chopped down that way, thus protecting much of themselves from blood splatter.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by twinsrwe »

I also think the assailant was facing Abby for the first blow. Abby may have even screamed out, but who was going to hear her? Certainly not Bridget who was busy washing those dang windows or she may have been talking to the Kelly girl. Since Bridget was outside, she would not have heard a thing that was going on inside the house. Lizzie on the other hand would have heard something – a scream – Abby’s body hitting the floor – the sound of an hatchet pounding away on Abby’s head. Something! Lizzie claimed she heard Abby’s dead body come in the house and asked that someone look upstairs for her, yet she heard absolutely nothing when Abby was being hacked to death. Really??? Lizzie never left the house during the time Abby was killed; where and what she claimed she was doing, would still have kept her within hearing range of Abby being killed.

I don’t think Uncle John was there on August 3rd for a social visit. I think he and Andrew were planning something big. Abby most likely knew what these two men were planning, before she went to bed. I think Lizzie overheard the details of their conversation when she returned from visiting with Alice Russell. On the morning of August 4th, Abby could have made a snide remark to Lizzie (I do believe Lizzie was most likely the killer) regarding what Andrew and John were planning, and then Lizzie lost it.

I am 5’ 2 ½“ tall. It would be literally impossible for me to lay across a bed and hack away at a body laying on the floor – my arms would not be long enough to accomplish killing a person in that position. It would also be difficult for me to straddle the body and sit on a person’s behind while hacking away at their head. However, it would be very easy for me to straddle the body, slightly bend my knees and lean my torso forward while hacking away at a body laying on the floor. The wounds indicated on Abby’s head show slashes going across her head sideways; I could easily inflict those wounds by moving my position to standing between the body and dresser, slightly bending my knees and leaning my torso forward.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by irina »

One misleading assumptions thing that bugs me is the idea that Lizzie overheard her parents and Uncle John discussing business through open windows in the evening. Even in my time personal and important things were barely whispered and certainly not discussed in a way that the news could float out a window. I grew up in the country, at least a quarter mile from neighbors and sometimes more. As a child if I said a neighbor's name, perhaps with a negative comment, my mother would caution me not to say something like that too loud because someone might hear. She would whisper a neighbor's name for fear someone (a mile away or more?) could hear. I could write this off as my mother's way of doing things except my first husband was the same way so I assume this behaviour was once manners of the times. (My opinion is if you're alone & can't see anyone else & you know your voice won't carry, there is no danger. Just be careful.)

So I don't think Lizzie heard anything through open windows. Also re-think the closeness of other houses on Second Street~anyone could theoretically heard anything through an open window. I could go for the idea Abby said something unfortunate. One (or more) of the old newspaper articles said definitively that Andrew had written a will and that he was going to give Abby more than her "dower right" as she had been a faithful wife and companion for many years and he believed she deserved more. We can't seem to prove all this with testimony and other sources, but this was written in some articles at the time. How unfortunate if Abby said something like, "Your father has made a decision & you, nor your sister, can do anything about it."

I don't think the attack could have been done from lying across the bed. The bedcover was smooth and there was the tuft of hair on top. The hatchet blows came from directions not possible from on the bed.

If one leaned torso forward as Twins has suggested, that should have cut down on blood spatter to the front.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

I don't think that the killer lay on the bed either. I just put it out there as something I read in an early thread.

I've always thought that the theory was that Uncle John may have had a voice like Foghorn Leghorn and spoke about the Swansea farm being sold. It was known in town and at Andrew's bank, according to Victoria Lincoln, that Andrew was becoming concerned at the profitability of the Swansea farm and wished to make some changes. Accordingly, he had consulted John Morse, who had agreed to take over the running of the farm for a while.

It's been theorised that either the making of a will was discussed or the transfer of property. Remember the summing up of the prosecution at the prelim in which Knowlton openly regretted that the small packet or parcel of papers that Andrew had been seen carrying had not been found. Now, I happen to think they were documents of some sort from the bank, the bank that Andrew had taken the trouble to visit that day, queasy though he seems to have felt. They may have been in draft form so unfortunately there were no copies. However, the police and the prosecution were mighty interested in finding them.

The theory discussed here, since I've been posting anyway, was not that this discussion floated through Lizzie's open window but that the noise reverberated through the small house. We know that voices were heard by Lizzie, at least in the afternoon, because she herself said in testimony that the noise disturbed her. She also knew by this that her uncle Morse had arrived for a visit. She didn't see him until after the murders.

It was postulated by posters at one stage that Lizzie may have listened to conversations between Andrew and Abby through her bed head being placed very near their blocked bedroom door. I think there's a whole thread on the strange way Lizzie's bed was placed in her room. I grew up in a house that was not large but was old and had thick walls. Cousins of mine lived in a very modern flat that, though large, had thin walls and, whatever the precautions, conversations were overheard. Different strokes for different folks!

The Borden family had some strange dynamics. Everyone who has been to the B and B emphasises how small the house is. That would be made even starker, I think, by the lack of corridors and passageways. I don't believe that it would take a great effort of will to overhear something in that house even if you weren't trying to. That's just my opinion, though.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by irina »

I remember the thread about what Lizzie could probably hear through the keyhole. I'm not very good at dimensions but I guess 92 Second must be about the size of one of my two story houses+a third story & basement. I think the cellar is overlooked for where people were and what they heard.

BTW why was the parlour fairly overlooked as to where an intruder could have hidden? I have read testimony & searched the forum. It was established no one went into the parlour that day. Bridget washed the outside windows but not the inside windows in the parlour, even though Abby had told her to wash all the windows inside & out. The curtains/drapes/blinds/shutters or whatever were down and Bridget couldn't see in. The defense attorneys took a picture of a closet and said someone could have hidden in there. (Has a criminal EVER hidden in a closet except in the movies?) Why doesn't anyone wonder who or what was in the parlour on August 4?. Seems like everyone, including investigators avoided the parlour.

One other stray thought is that I think I figured out in my regular old house, I can't tell if someone is going up or down the stairs when they are moving on the stairs, which are carpeted. I can tell when someone makes it to the top landing or the ground floor. My point here is that I think Lizzie was in the cellar while an intruder killed her father and that she heard certain things, like the intruder coming down the stairs. She said she thought she heard Abby come in, etc.... Well, we know the whole thing, but if she heard foot steps upstairs and steps on the stairs I think she couldn't tell if they were going up or down. It's been a million years since I was in anyone's basement so I can't remember what stuff sounds like in a basement.

My simpler point being I think Lizzie heard someone walking on the ground floor and on the stairs and thought Abby had arrived home.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

We don't have basements or cellars in most houses in Australia. It's not necessary because of the climate. (By the way, spoke to a couple from Western Australia at the beginning of winter. They had never seen snow and were so excited because they were going to a ski resort to experience it for the first time! Rather you than me, I thought to myself!)

You have a point about carpeted staircases etc and about the parlour. Did Officer Allen not look in the parlour when he arrived? Have to look it up! The trouble is, though, that Lizzie made up an entire scenario about being outside and in the barn from the beginning. She stated where she was to two females first, Bridget and Mrs Churchill. Mrs Churchill was a motherly older married lady. Surely there would have been no embarrassment if Lizzie had explained that she had her fleas, had been doing things down in the cellar etc when her father must have been killed?

Similarly, Dr Bowen arrived before the police. Surely she could have murmured in his ear that she had been down in the cellar doing necessary things, and she had already confided in Mrs Churchill etc. Bowen would have made it all right with the police, just as he did about the rags in the pail. Instead we get eating pears and searching for iron and scrapings and moans and all the trimmings of a story that appears to me to be made up as Lizzie is going along.

It's not as if Lizzie was given the third degree by fierce policemen. Fleet, Hilliard etc treated her with kid gloves. Admittedly Officer Harrington didn't like her very much but that's neither here nor there, really.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by irina »

My comments are kind of just comments. I don't believe the barn story either on several counts. A big deal for me is everyone reported how extremely clean her hands were. Knowlton asked questions about how dirty a person's hands would get rummaging around in a barn, at trial. Eating pears & rummaging around in the barn! No way. So I would theorize she wanted to mentally, psychologically distance herself from having heard her father's murder and not going to help, etc. Mentally she put herself as far away as possible & didn't admit even to herself what she heard.

Beyond that I am just interested in what she could have heard in the cellar if she was innocent, and how she reasonably might have interpreted that. She need not have been doing something extremely personal. After all the WC was down there & considering the family menu she may have been constipated. A lady in those days wouldn't have said she was in the WC "taking a sh**", though she might have said "indisposed". (When I was little a lot of "old timers", folks born in the 1880s took laxatives every day, fearing not going daily would lead to appendicitis.) I see the barn story as pure fiction and bad fiction at that. But that she reported a "groan", "scraping noise", "distressing noise" bothers me. Why not say something heroic about rushing in to save her father? (Of course if she was guilty she may have heard such sounds during the commission of murder.)

I had a horrid experience today that made me think of all this. I have come to the conclusion that my house is a little bigger than Lizzie's by 4 bedrooms in two stories. No third floor, no cellar. I was alone with one dog. I heard footsteps like human across a large room upstairs and then human foot steps on the stairs. They sounded purposeful and measured and human. I quickly moved to the exit door and then thought to call the dog. It was her ~an older dog~ going down the steps only. She could not enter the larger room upstairs. It is a quirk of the house that occasionally foot steps can be heard across the length of the upstairs when no one is there. Anyway I had no idea who or what was happening and I thought of Lizzie saying she thought Abby had come home and might be upstairs.

As I got to the front door in a couple swift steps I also thought of Lizzie staying in the house after discovering murder. Don't know about that. My safety depends on me and my dogs and I feel safer outside. I have a fear of being trapped. My car is a comfort zone too, so I'd likely jump in the car & drive away if I had an intruder.

Finally, the parlour is super interesting because it was so glossed over by everyone. Like I mentioned before, the defense took pictures of a closet & said someone could have hidden in there. WHY NOT THE PARLOUR WHERE NOBODY ENTERED THAT DAY? Maybe there was some reason the "knew" nobody had hidden there but I can't find what it was. Before I suggested an intruder hid in a closet I'd be suggesting the full sized room (probably crammed with Victorian furniture to hide under), where all the survivors said they didn't go that day! What's to lose?

Morse asked investigators if someone could have hidden in the house all night.(He was told no.) He obsessed about the locks on the cellar & front door. Lizzie asked Bridget the following morning, in presence of police, if Bridget was sure she had locked the cellar. (consciousness of innocence?) NOBODY seemed to give a thought to the parlour. Why? No bloody prints on the door knob perhaps? Am I mistaken that no one went in there that day? Did Lizzie say she went in? Bridget for sure didn't, nor was she even able to see in & she sure as heck didn't wash the inside of the windows, for reasons unknown. (I assume maybe because the room was seldom used, the inside of the windows didn't accumulate smoke, grime, fly specks and whatnot.) Those who think Bridget was involved, would it have been OK with Abby that the inside parlour windows went unwashed or did she know Abby was beyond caring? (I think Bridget was innocent, but it makes a person wonder.)
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

I certainly hope no-one was in your house! What a scary experience! Your feelings told you you would be safer outside, with your dogs. Why didn't Lizzie's tell her the same thing?

With regard to the windows, the Bordens seem to have compartmentalised their lives a lot. Bridget, for instance, wasn't required to do anything upstairs, sweeping, scrubbing lobby floors, cleaning windows. Nothing! That in itself is very unusual really, even though Abby obviously liked to keep busy and useful.

Could it be that, because care of the parlour was Lizzie's 'job', that also meant the cleaning of the inside window there was undertaken by her and not Bridget? It's probably true that, as the parlour was used only occasionally and this was the height of summer, there wouldn't be smoky grime from lamps, etc. Just an occasional wipe-over might be needed at that time of year.

Even though it isn't mentioned, I am sure that the first police would have at least looked in the parlour (and in all the downstairs rooms), though considering it was probably dim in there and undisturbed it's questionable how good a look it was!

If Lizzie was in the privy I don't see why using the toilet would be so shocking that she would never tell anyone, especially not a female neighbour or her doctor, in the circumstances, even if she was constipated.
When I was young everyone was encouraged to eat apples. 'An apple a day keeps the doctor away' they would say. People would dose themselves with syrup of figs in those days. Doctors probably dealt with constipation a lot! Considering the cream cakes etc she consumed one would have expected Abby to have had trouble in that direction! Maybe the pears were offered at meals as an antidote!
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

Remembering that the front door was locked and bolted that morning, at what time do you think that an intruder would be hiding in the parlour. I have no problem about the ability of someone to hide in there. It's the waiting ninety minutes after Abby's murder (why wait and kill Andrew, why not just get out of there) plus the departing out of the house without meeting anyone or being seen that is the problem?
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by irina »

I still think Abby let him(?) in the side door. Twice in the morning Lizzie was likely in the cellar, probably at a time when Bridget was not around. Around the time Lizzie went downstairs the first time, there is mention of a slop pail which indicates a need for the WC. Plus there could have been something to do with laundry yet in the cellar. But anyway the WC was in the cellar. A bit later Lizzie spent some time in her room mending a dress, etc. She might have been in Emma's room as well as it seems like she used Emma's room as a dressing room.

Because major players (Lizzie & Bridget) were absent from the main floor for some periods of time, all this is more possible. I would have to agree with Lizzie did it people if for example Bridget was cooking in the kitchen and Lizzie was ironing in the dining room, all morning. One of the things that keeps this a mystery is that it is possible, barely, but still possible, that an intruder had workable periods of time to move around.

So I am considering someone familiar with the family or who had the custom of going to the back door. I have wondered if someone didn't come to see Morse or retrieve something he left behind. I think the killer listened to movements and attempted to leave when things were quiet but Andrew wasn't fully asleep. If the killer was in the parlour he would have even better been able to know what was going on.

Why he would have hidden instead of leaving could be a number of reasons. Bridget may have re-entered the house. Maybe she was washing windows on the side of the house with the needed exit. Maybe Lizzie came back upstairs. I think it's possible there could have been a plan to murder Abby, whether or not Lizzie planned it, the killer couldn't get out to escape and Andrew became collateral damage when the killer thought the coast was clear.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

You'd have to say, wouldn't you, that Lizzie lied about wearing the Bengaline silk that morning, and repeated that lie at the inquest. You believe, now, I think, that her whole scenario of being outside and being in the barn and coming back is a lie, (for whatever reason.) That was important testimony that she gave as it covered the time of her father's murder.
That kind of leaves what Lizzie says about where she was when Abby was killed with more than a bit of a credibility problem doesn't it? Because if she was prepared to lie to the police and at the inquest about her whereabouts for one murder why wouldn't she lie about where she was for the other?

Lizzie made sure that she was placed downstairs in the kitchen and dining room for the earlier part of the morning waiting for those irons. How did she not see or hear someone come to the back door, even if she was in the cellar the entire time. (The cellar appears to be mighty convenient) 'smile'. How come Lizzie didn't hear hurried male footsteps (he would hardly have strolled after a woman he intended to kill) after Abby let him in? Of course, if she was sitting in the kitchen or the dining room, as she said she was, she would have heard him come in, wouldn't she?

When Bridget came in to do the inside windows she went through each room. No Lizzie. She didn't see a soul. However, in Lizzie's inquest testimony she denied being upstairs when Bridget was cleaning the inside windows, (though at first she said she was briefly upstairs and then on the stairs.) In fact Lizzie's testimony is muddled and seems designed to place her at all times where the bodies weren't.

Possum used to post a lot about how difficult it would have been for an intruder to remain in a house for ninety or more minutes when he doesn't know how many people are present in that house and where they are going to appear next. How would an intruder know that a cool parlour wouldn't be used as a sitting room?

Yet, according to the intruder scenario he seems to have remained there for ninety minutes. Why? Even if he had a quarrel with Andrew, or John Morse about something, would he kill Abby? Or why, if he objected to Abby's demeanour or something and killed her, would he stick around for ninety minutes, a very long time, and then kill Andrew? It just doesn't make sense.

What is more there were no washing facilities in the parlour or in Abby or Emma's rooms. Any blood on him from Abby would be well and truly dried on by the time he attacked Andrew and got some more blood and gore. Perhaps he cleaned up in the sink room or even the cellar? No, wait, that couldn't have happened because Lizzie was in the kitchen waiting for those flats!
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by irina »

Guilty or innocent, Lizzie failed to tell the truth. Either she made up very bad lies or she couldn't mentally handle being so close to two murders. She is totally scrambled on most of anything that morning.

I still think for Lizzie or anyone else in that house, footsteps going in and out wouldn't have meant a lot because there were a number of people who went in and out. Bridget seemed to have been built like a man so her tread could have been masculine. I don't exactly think an intruder would have been someone off the street. There is a possibility Abby let the person in, perhaps accompanied that person upstairs to get something. (If I hear steps in my house I'm in trouble. I wouldn't feel that way if I was used to comings and goings.)

A man likely would have worn dark clothing. Who knows but he could have wiped his hands on his clothes?

I don't have a problem with a psychopath hanging around because there are too many modern cases where creeps hung out and entertained themselves after crimes. Plus there is the good old Manson Family trick of "creepy crawling" homes while residents are asleep.

Anyway it's just an alternative way to look at things. Whether she's guilty or innocent I think that it was established, so far as I can see, that no one went into the parlour that morning, and there also wasn't interest in the parlour. There must be a reasonable reason and I am curious what it was. Prosecution wouldn't be interested because they said Lizzie was guilty. Parlour doesn't matter. Defense apparently wasn't interested. I who believe most anything (except Oscar Pistorius' story), have a problem with the defense suggesting the killer hid in a downstairs closet. To me that's really clutching at straws and borders on the ridiculous. The better story would be that there was a full sized room nobody entered that day. Curtains/drapes/blinds were all down, etc. THAT makes someone wonder. The pure drama of it would have been good in court. Closet is ridiculous.

What I really think about this case is we are missing some really important pieces. It's like that other case I mentioned to you specifically. Someone has the missing pieces and they are coming out. There was a tremendous mystery because the pieces didn't fit and too many were missing. It is possible that pieces are missing from the Borden case because nobody really wanted to convict her or perhaps there were extenuating circumstances that were known but nobody wanted to come out in a public forum. Or maybe she was innocent or partially innocent. It makes more sense to me that she knew who was the killer and covered. I don't think it was Bridget. There's a lot that doesn't make sense from either perspective.

I bought the oddest antique knife today. I needed better cooking knives with high carbon steel that would hold an edge. It's long and kind of square and weighted funny. I never saw anything like it. It's a little hard to use due to length but it will hold an edge. Anytime I see something like that I wonder again about what kind of hatchet or whatever was used in the Borden tragedy. It would be creepy if Lizzie did it and used a common kitchen item that nobody ever thought about. Like a mezza luna knife with a handle or something.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by debbiediablo »

I don't have a problem with someone hiding in the closet for 90 minutes or hiding in Emma's room overnight. What I can't put together is the level of rage involved in both murders and an outside killer who cooled his or her heels for an extended period of time.

People keep parts of their lives (and their homes) off limits for a reason. I will always believe that when-if we find the reason for the extreme secretiveness and compartmentalization in the Borden household, we will find the killer's motive.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

That is why I just can't see a stranger-trespasser killer being able to maintain the rage for an hour and a half. These murders have such a level of personal anger at their core that, unless both Abby and Andrew had done an outsider a great wrong, to me it has to be someone as killer who knew them intimately.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by debbiediablo »

I'm pulling this back up because the question of Abby's time of death has come up again.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

Good idea, debbie, but I just want to check on some debates on it in very early threads before I post, if I find anything!. It's a real disadvantage not having a medical background when such things are discussed.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

Postby Kat » Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:26 am
I don't wish to innundate anyone with too much testimony.
But, I have collected the big doctors testimony as to what they based their conclusions on as to the time-lapse of death between Abby and Andrew.
The big doctors are Dolan, Wood, Draper & Cheever.
They based their conclusions on mainly 3 things: digestion, blood and body temperature. Also included but not explicitly held out to us is their reliance on anecdotal information as to the habits and schedules of these 2 victims including what they ate and when they ate it that Thursday.
(This is for reference purposes):

--------------

Trial
Dolan
Q. What would you say now?
A. I will say, taking everything into consideration, what I saw then and what I have learned since by examination, that the difference between the deaths of the two bodies would be from an hour to an hour and a half.

Q. What have you seen since that alters your opinion?
A. I don't know anything in particular that I have seen except that I have studied the subject up, have thought the matter over. Though I had performed the autopsy at the time, I had not thought so much of it as I have since. But taking everything into consideration from the day of the tragedy, all that has taken place since and all I have studied, that is my conclusion at the present time.

Q. Does the coagulation of the blood which you speak of have any bearing upon the opinion which you have expressed?
A. It has; yes, sir.

Page 968

Q. How soon, taking the warm season of the year into account, does blood that is separated from the body begin to coagulate?
A. Various authors differ on that. The time is generally put down from three to ten minutes.

Q. Is it safe after fifteen minutes, assuming that you find a body, the warm season of the year, and blood which has come from the body and coagulated, is it safe to express any opinion after fifteen minutes upon the coagulation of the blood?
A. Of itself I don't think it would be very safe; no, sir.

Q. Would the blood then become darker in color?
A. Yes, I think it would become darker.

______________

Trial
Dr. Wood
Q. Your medical education has given you, of course, a general medical knowledge in addition to your chemical specialty?
A. That is included in the action of poisons, etc.

Q. And have you been present and heard the evidence in the case?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. So far as relates to the condition of the bodies?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the condition of the intestines?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the various witnesses who have testified to the appearance of the bodies after they were discovered, and to the description of the intestines?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Taking all those facts as you have heard them, and also the examinations that you made yourself, what of them do you deem to be important in determining the time, the relative time, of the death of those two people?
A. The difference in the period of digestion, both stomach and intestinal, the drying of the blood, and the temperature of the body.

Page 997

Q. And also the intestines?
A. I mentioned that.

Q. Yes, I guess you did. And taking all those circumstances that you say you regard as important, as a whole, all together, considering them together, do you desire to modify in any way what you have already said as to the difference in time of death of the two people?
A. I should think that one corroborated the other, that they all tended to the same conclusion.

Page 998

Q. And that conclusion---will you state that, Professor, so that there may be no misunderstanding?
A. And hour and a half, more or less, it might be half an hour more or half an hour less.

_____________



Trial
Dr. Draper

Q. Did you examine any of the other parts of the body of Mr. and Mrs.

Page 1044

Borden?
A. I did, sir.

Q. I won't trouble you with anything except the intestines. Were the stomachs there?
A. They were not.

Q. Were the intestines?
A. They were.

Q. What did you observe with regard to the intestines?
A. In the case of Mr. Borden digestion had gone forward in the small intestines so that they were relatively empty. The large intestines, the large bowel was filled with residue of the last digestion. In the case of Mrs. Borden the small intestine showed food in the process of digestion, and I saw two small fragments of fruit skin, either pear or apple. The large intestine was empty.

Q. That aids what I had in mind before. Is the process of digestion completed in the stomach?
A. No, sir.

Q. That continues how far?
A. Until it is finally delivered as residue in the large intestines from the small intestines.

Q. There is no digestion practically in the large intestines?
A. No, sir.

Q. But there is a continuous process of digestion in the small intestines?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was there anything in the appearance of those intestines or the contents of them which would indicate anything abnormal or irregular in the process of digestion?
A. Nothing that I observed, sir.

Q. You have heard the testimony of Prof. Wood in regard to the contents of the stomach?
A. I have.

Page 1045

Q. Without repeating it, was the condition of the intestines that you have observed consistent with the appearance of the contents of the stomach as you heard them testified to?
A. It was.

Q. Have you heard the other testimony in the case with relation to the appearance of the bodies as they were found and after they were found?
A. I have.

Q. And the testimony with regard to the color and the consistency of the blood?
A. I have sir.

Q. And the heat of the bodies?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Taking all those facts together, or taking those facts or any facts that you have listened to with regard to the condition of the bodies, including what you observed yourself at the time of the autopsy, are there any of them that you deem important in determining the question in priority of death?
A. There are.

Q. If so, state what they are?
A. I place first in the series the differences observed in digestion in the two bodies.

Q. By Prof. Wood?
A. By Prof. Wood, and by Dr. Dolan and myself.

Q. Give all those that seem to you material or important or significant?
A. The differences in the condition as regards the color and consistency of the blood in the two cases; and differences in the temperature, are all factors which lead me to a conclusion.

Q. Perhaps in your first fact that you have stated you included the condition of the intestines?
A. I did, sir.

Page 1046

Q. Taking those facts together and assuming that the two people ate breakfast at the same time and from the same table, or from the same supply of food, and that nothing abnormal occurred in the process of digestion, are you able from those facts to determine the question of priority of death and the time of such priority?
A. As to the priority of death I am sure. As to the time, it will be approximate, if I make a conclusion.

Q. You can state both conclusions approximately or how accurately you can give either one of them?
A. I am sure from the evidence of digestion, of the color and its condition and consistency of the blood, and of the temperature of the two bodies, that Mrs. Borden died before Mr. Borden. As to the interval, I think, taking all the facts together, they lead me to the conclusion that an interval of at least an hour passed between the two deaths.

__________

Trial
Dr. Cheever
Q. You have also heard Professor Wood's testimony and that of Dr. Draper and Dr. Dolan?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are there any facts that you have listened ton in your opinion important or significant in determining the question of priority of death?
A. Of Mr. and Mrs. Borden?

Q. Yes.
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And of the time of such priority?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Will you state what what witness or witnesses that you have listened to that seemed to you to be significant of the conclusion to draw from them, and how certain you are of your conclusions?
A. The fact that Mrs. Borden's body was sensibly cooler than Mr. Borden's, the fact that the blood which was poured out on the surroundings was coagulated to a certain degree about the person of Mrs. Borden and was entirely liquid and dripping from the wounds of Mr. Borden and the fact that in Mrs. Borden's case the digestion was still going on and that in Mr. Borden it was apparently almost completed---all these things taken together convinced me that Mrs. Borden

Page 1089

died first, and probably by considerable interval.

Q. What interval, Doctor, as to the minimum, in your opinion?
A. The minimum I should place at about an hour; the maximum I should not be willing to place at more than two hours.

Q. And the probabilities in view of all the circumstances?
A. Between one and two hours, probably.

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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

I thought the above testimony might be handy as a reference point, though there is a lot of it!
Scott Crowder
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Scott Crowder »

Necromancing this dead thread. First off, did Bridget clean the upper floor windows or just the bottom floor windows? Does anyone know? If she cleaned the upper floor windows, which one would expect she did, then she HAD to have seen the body of Abby Bordern lying there unless Abby wasn't yet dead when she cleaned that side of the house. Bridget did a very good job describing which sides of the house she cleaned and in what order, so that should help in determining the soonest Abby could have been lying dead on that floor - unless Bridget is the killer.

Secondly, I own a carpet cleaning company. I know all about blood in carpets. And like any other form of moisture, the hotter the day, the LONGER it takes to coagulate. Moisture doesn't evaporate in high heat. That runs counter intuitive to almost everyone's thinking, but it's true. I can't tell you how many times I've had to tell a customer please turn off the heat because your carpet will never dry. There's even a mathematical formula written centuries ago, about the rate of moisture evaporation. You turn down the heat, you open windows so there is air flow, the carpet dries faster. So, IF there was no air flow and IF the second floor was warmer than the first floor, it would take longer for the blood to congeal.

However, this ignores one other plain fact the police seemingly overlooked: It took a LONG time for anyone to even discover Abby's body. So we don't really know if the coagulation comparisons were made simultaneously or if the officers looked at all the fresh blood on Andrew's crime scene when they first arrived and only noticed much later when they finally found Abby's body that the blood was drier. Did they go back down and take a second look at Andrew's body or, as they seem to have been fairly inept at CSI, did they simply react upon first impressions? Is the doctor who testified that Andrew's blood was still dripping referring to immediately after the police arrived? When he refers to the level of coagulation, how long after they arrived did they actually discover Abby's body? Was Andrews blood still dripping at that point? Does the doctor making these statements even know?

Finally, houses have strange air patterns. Older houses, not the heavily insulated energy efficient houses from the 80's on. I know that carpets don't dry in the order the rooms were cleaned in older houses because they have drafts. Therefore, blood wouldn't necessarily dry in the order it was spilled either. If Abby died in a draftier room, then her blood would dry faster, even though heat rises, because the temperature in her room may not have been substantially different from the first floor. It would be the attic which was stifling, which makes Bridget the one with the unbelievable alibi, btw.

I've been to clean up crime scenes. I've also cleaned up plenty of fresh blood. I can say with certainty that no one that day could say definitively that Abby died between 9-10:00 based solely upon the coagulation of the blood. There is way too many variables in play that probably none of these people, not even the police, could be aware of. Reading the doctors testimonies and their incorrect belief that the heat would somehow dry out the blood faster, when, in fact, the opposite is true, doesn't give me much faith in their ability to determine time of death. Furthermore, Andrew was found in the central portion of the house, in fact, at the exact center of the first floor. That blood couldn't be exposed to less air flow. Abby, on the other hand, was near an outer wall. That's where the drafts flow strongest, suggesting that if both people were killed simultaneously, the blood near Abby should congeal soonest.

Finally, I don't know the orientation of the house. Was the sitting room facing the sun? Was sunlight streaming into the room his body lay? Was Abby's room towards the sun or away from it? If her room were away from the sun, then his room was facing the sun and his room would be substantially warmer than her room, meaning her blood would coagulate that much faster than his. His blood could literally still be dripping wet if he were in the center of the house, with no air flow and sunlight streaming in on a hot day while hers could be already drying as she lay on the cooler side of the house, near the wall, with air flowing out of the drafty room.
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NancyDrew
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by NancyDrew »

Hello Scott: I'm glad you're here. I love to discuss this case, but the board has been a bit slow lately (probably due to the holidays.)

What you say about blood, air flows, coagulation, etc, is very interesting. Let me throw a few thoughts in here:

1. Lizzie called for Bridget shortly after 11 (according to Bridget's testimony.) The policy didn't get the call until 11:15. By the time Bowen, the police officers, Mrs. Churchhill, Alice Russell, etc, were there, it had to be after 11:30. Lizzie is being tended to by the women, and is uttering about her step-mother. She wants her found...says she is "positive" she heard her come in (which I think is a lie) and asks someone to go upstairs and look for her.

This had to be 11:40 am when Abby is discovered. I don't know if the windows in the guest room were open or closed. It was only in the 80's that day in Fall River, but I don't know how humid it was (I live only 30 mins from 92 Second Street, and being a life-long New Englander, I can tell you it gets oppressively humid here in the summer months.)

It would be interesting to re-create this situation...the outside temp, the mugginess, etc, in a small 2nd story room and see how fast blood clotted. (Yes, I would actually do this.)

Okay, apart from the blood, what do you think of the digestion evidence? There was no food in Andrew's small intestines, but his large intestines were full. Abby, on the other hand, did have food in her small intestines. Upon death, digestion ceases. And, also, the temperature business. Abby was in a hot, confined 2nd story room...I've been there and can imagine it would be very warm in the summer. And YET...her body was cooler than Andrew's.
(Testimony from Dr. Cheever)
Q. Will you state what what witness or witnesses that you have listened to that seemed to you to be significant of the conclusion to draw from them, and how certain you are of your conclusions?
A. The fact that Mrs. Borden's body was sensibly cooler than Mr. Borden's, the fact that the blood which was poured out on the surroundings was coagulated to a certain degree about the person of Mrs. Borden and was entirely liquid and dripping from the wounds of Mr. Borden and the fact that in Mrs. Borden's case the digestion was still going on and that in Mr. Borden it was apparently almost completed---all these things taken together convinced me that Mrs. Borden

Page 1089

died first, and probably by considerable interval.

Abby was plump, Andrew was rail thin and probably underweight.

Here is an article from http://www.writersdigest.com/qp7-migrat ... cs-excerpt
A dead body looses heat passively by three distinct mechanisms: radiation (heat lost as infrared heat rays), conduction (heat passed on to any object that contacts the body), and convection (heat lost into the moving air). The state of the corpse and the environmental conditions greatly affect the rate of heat loss.

Obesity, heavy clothing, warm still air, exposure to direct sunlight, and an enclosed environment slow heat loss. Fat and clothing make good insulators, so an obese person in a sweater will lose heat much more slowly than would a thin, unclothed corpse exposed to cold or moving air, water, or shade. Children and the elderly tend to lose heat faster, as do those who are chronically ill or emaciated. If the body is in contact with cold surfaces such as marble or cool concrete, heat loss will be greater.
Bottom line here: If Abby and Andrew were killed at that exact same time, Abby would probably cool down less quickly than Andrew: reason: She was obese...and wearing a head scarf. She'd be warmer. But she wasn't. Her body was "sensibly cooler."

To me this says Abby was most probably killed FIRST and some time before Andrew....
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by NancyDrew »

P.S. If I'm wrong on the time that Abby was discovered, please someone correct me..thanks!
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Scott Crowder »

I don't know much about the digestion issue other than that the more high strung you are, the higher the acid content in your body. So if you throw up on a carpet, it's more likely to burn the stain into the carpet and become the new color. Also the acid continues to burn over time so the longer you take to clean it up, the more likely it will become permanent. Carpet being and acid dye receptor.

Which probably is of zero help in solving this murder lol.

But since I posted this I have discovered that indeed, Mrs. Borden was on the side of the house away from the sun, hence the coolest portion of the house. So blood there would dry faster and her body would cool more quickly than where Mr. Borden was murdered.

And you mention her obesity. This means less blood flow and therefore, she is naturally cooler to the skin in the extremities. They spoke of examining her wrist. If so, that would be cooler. An internal thermometer would be needed.

IAdd in the 30-40 minutes that passed before they found her and it doesn't mean she wasn't murdered first, but it does mean it's quite possible she was only murdered shortly before.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Jersey »

Irina brings up an interesting point -
from shows on the Borden home, it appears
that the basement ceiling is bare wood and
beams - in other words, it is not a finished ceiling,
just the wooden flooring of the 1st floor and beamwork.
We are now living in a home with the same type of basement,
and I can hear every movement on the 1st floor when I'm
in the basement, I can hear every footstep and even talking.
Interesting that even if the 1st floor occupants are tiptoeing,
I can still hear it when in the basement.
Not farfetched that Lizzie (or someone) was listening in that
basement - or even that someone was hiding there!
Lots of dark corners to hide in, and wait until the coast
was clear to go upstairs.
And even that back door leading out to the yard, an escape route.
As for motive - isn't it ALWAYS money??
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NancyDrew
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by NancyDrew »

Hello,

You've take a bit of a different tract than what Scott and I were discussing, but that's ok. Yes, I think Lizzie could hear what was going on in the house, provided people were speaking in a normal conversational tone. Here is the thing though: we have no idea how LOUD anyone was speaking. Maybe Andrew, Abby & Uncle John were talking in "hushed tones" or whispers, because they knew the subject matter was delicate.

To go back to the original topic here, of when Abby actually died, I think there is ample evidence she died well before Andrew. So I respectfully disagree with you, Scott, that Abby might have been murdered shortly before her husband.

I understand about the variables you mentioned regarding blood coagulation, but the digestion business is what convinces me.

Abby was killed while food was still being digested in her small intestines. When she died, the digestion stopped. Andrew's small intestines were completely empty; his body (while still alive of course) had completed digestion, and anything he consumed that morning was now 'residue' in his large intestines.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Jersey »

Well I'm sorry to have interrupted any conversations
with a 'different' train of thought,
isn't that what a forum is all about, discussions??
And I certainly didn't mean to butt in on 2 people's
conversations, from months ago.
I won't be posting anymore, you can keep your discussion.
So long.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Jersey »

And I was commenting on Irina's original comment,
I had no idea that only 2 people could discuss
an 'original topic'.
Good grief.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by twinsrwe »

Oh no, Jersey, I don't think NancyDrew meant that no one else can join in the discussion here. If you re-read the first sentence in her response to your post, she stated that it was OK to take a different tract than the one she and Scott have been discussing.

I have not thought of the Borden's unfinished ceiling in the basement as being something that someone would be able to clearly hear a conversation from the rooms above. You have a good point; Lizzie or someone else could have hid in the basement, and heard everything that was said between Andrew, Abby and Uncle John.

I hope you reconsider about leaving the forum, and decide to continue posting. I think you have some great information and I for one would like to read more of your comments and ideas.
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