What Time Did Abby Really Die?

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What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by debbiediablo »

Abby's time of death is summarily assumed to be around 9:00 - 9:30 because experts in the late 1800s said so. This is based on stomach and bowel contents, temperature of the bodies and condition of the blood lost by each of them. Possum has long argued that an outside killer didn't hack up Abby and then hang around in a strange house for 90 minutes to hack up Andrew. I agree unless Lizzie was complicit in the killings (instead of committing them herself) and hid the killer in Emma's room. That's the only place in the front of the house without windows where the likelihood of being disturbed was close to zero, especially if Lizzie was on the first floor monitoring the stairs with the front door locked three times and Bridget outside washing windows.

First for the digestion: no one now really knows what the contents of Andrew's and Abby's stomachs looked like much less whether they both consumed the final food of their lives at breakfast. Digestion to determine the time of death is still a controversial science given the arguments about how early or late Meredith Kircher died and whether Reeva Steenkamp last ate at dinner or nibbled a late night snack.

Forensics experts in 2014 recognize that the state of digestion isn't a strong determinant for time of death. Too many elements factor in including food that was last eaten, age, sex, body mass index, exercise and illness. A 2003 study by Chen et al, in the Journal of Gastroenterology and Hepatology determined the time taken for the same meal to move from the stomach to the duodenum ranged from 37.1 to 117.8 minutes from person to person. That's a variance of 80 minutes, almost the total difference between the time Abby was supposedly killed and the time we're fairly sure Andrew died! Another paper in 2006 by Hellmig, et al, in the Journal of Gastroenterology and Hepatology showed a difference within individuals ranging from 66 to 200 minutes for the same meal!! (This is a peer reviewed journal.)

Touching the bodies to compare temperature is bad science. If Andrew was ill he may have had a fever or his temperature could have been elevated from exercise. Or maybe Abby's post-menopausal engine just ran cooler than his. Or the doctor could have been misjudged the difference. According to Healthline, "Cooling does not follow predictable time intervals as once thought. Cooling is often too imprecise to estimate time since death. It turns out that the widely held dogma that body temperature drops at a precise and steady rate of 1.6 degrees an hour (later rounded to 1.5 for ease of calculation) was never the case. Inaccuracies and things that were never true have been found to be printed and reprinted in medical books, repeated by instructors who heard it from their teachers. Be careful of medical 'facts' learned in school untested."

Further, "Some heat production occurs after death. The time in which the body does not begin to cool is known as the “Temperature Plateau”. This can last from 2 hours to 6 hours after death. In order to accurately predict the length of time which has elapsed since death the investigator would need to know the temperature at death and the length of the temperature plateau. As the plateau varies from person to person both the plateau length and the temperature at death are impossible to know. The only useful information which can be gotten from the body temperature is taken in the period between the time that cooling begins and the time the body reaches environment temperature." (Dolinak, Matshes and Lew, 2008). Here's where a thermometer comes in handy :smiliecolors:

Now for the blood evidence. This gets a bit stickier, so to speak. "Over time, blood spatters dry. How quickly this happens depends on the surface where the blood landed, how much blood is contained in the spatter, and the heat and humidity in the crime scene. The outer edges dry first. A really dry blood spatter can skeletonize, flaking off and leaving a ring around the original diameter of the spatter. An analyst can help to pinpoint when the crime occurred based off the dryness of the blood. Although initially it behaves as a liquid, blood eventually begins to clot after it leaves the body. Clotting can occur within 15 minutes. If some blood spatters are more clotted than others, it can indicate that multiple blows or gunshots occurred over a period of time."

If it takes 15 minutes to begin clotting outside the body, then a 30 minute time difference of death might make a lot of difference in how the blood from each victim looked. Maybe it wouldn't need to be a 90 minute interval. I'm struggling to find a good online reference for this. Dolan did a fair job of describing the blood splatter, especially since it was reasonably apparent what happened with Abby and somewhat apparent with Andrew. But I know of no specific scientific observation or description of the condition of the blood from either of them.

Another quote from Bloodstains as Investigative Evidence: "The body has a defense mechanism against excessive bleeding. As soon as bleeding starts in any great quantity, the blood pressure automatically drops. Consequently, the rate of bleeding slows. Upon death, blood pressure falls to zero and bleeding ceases. The only exception is a large wound located where drainage due to gravity will occur. This drainage is a mixture of blood cells, serum, and often, other materials. It is generally quite dark in color, and may collect in great quantity. The amount of blood around a body may be important. A lot of blood seemingly coming from a small wound would indicate that the victim survived the attack for a fair length of time."

Nowhere can I find how to ascertain time of death from condition of blood puddles...only the logical stuff like it dries faster when it spreads out...that the drying takes place at different rates depending on the surface it collected on, temperature, humidity and the amount of blood loss.

Possum, help! You are the blood expert!!

What I'm getting at here is maybe Abby didn't die so early in the morning. Maybe her death occurred much closer to Andrew's. For one thing, this would allow for the 'crazed outsider' to sneak in, commit the crimes and sneak back out. That's not my #1 theory; but regardless, changing Abby's time of death to within 30 minutes of Andrew's has the potential to change a lot of opinions.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curiousmind2014 »

Great post Debbie. I will ask some of my friends in the medical field about it. Maybe get them into this murder mystery too!

I will start off with your last line. Changing the death time of Abby changes many things about the whole murder mystery. It is interesting that no one questions the time of death for Abby. I wonder if Jennings thought that it works in their favor as it complicates the case for the prosecutor given that Abby may have not actually died when they thought she did. Anyways, let me break it down the scenarios.

1. Abby murdered while Bridget is cleaning the windows from outside. (Opportunity of Murder: Lizzie)
2. Abby murdered while Bridget is back in the house to clean the windows from inside (Opportunity of Murder: Lizzie, Bridget)
3. Abby murdered after Andrew comes back home and before Andrew is killed. (Opportunity of Murder: Lizzie, Bridget, Andrew)
4. Abby murdered after Andrew is killed. (Opportunity of Murder: Lizzie, Bridget, Abby)

Scenario #1 is over analyzed and we already have many in the camp of "Lizzie did it". Scenario #2 gets interesting, however, Bridget becomes an accomplice here. Like Lizzie, I won't be surprised if Bridget lied too. If she did, she definitely was a better liar than Lizzie. However, from newspaper articles, she did have a break down during the inquest wherein she stated "the murderer must clear me". Of course we can't trust the newspapers. But it definitely seems to be supporting scenario #2. Apparently, she was noticed bringing a package out of the Borden home and she never bought it back with her on the Saturday after the murder.

Scenario #3 & 4 gets very interesting. I don't believe Andrew had a reason to kill Abby. However, if one believes Andrew has a sexual relationship with the maid and his daughter, Abby might have killed him. And she later gets killed by Lizzie & Bridget. However, I personally won't like to entertain this story at all.

I would love to know what everyone thinks might have transpired.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by debbiediablo »

I'm not saying the time of death isn't correct, but like you, that is has never been challenged. The forensics in 1892 seem always to have been a given. Changing the time of death also increases the possibility of an intruder being the killer. And yes, no one saw a stranger enter the house, but only one person claims to have seen Lizzie near the barn. And no one saw her or someone else throwing a hatchet onto Crowe's roof. I go back to one of Possum's favorites, Neal deGrasse Tyson: "If scientists invented the legal system, eye witness testimony would be inadmissible evidence."

"Scenario #3 & 4 gets very interesting. I don't believe Andrew had a reason to kill Abby. However, if one believes Andrew has a sexual relationship with the maid and his daughter, Abby might have killed him. And she later gets killed by Lizzie & Bridget. However, I personally won't like to entertain this story at all." <<< That's yet another book in the making. :smiliecolors: I do wonder about Andrew and the maids.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by irina »

If we can find it, I just wrote a long and thoughtful reply. Taking good advice from someone I "saved the draft" and have no idea where it is or where to find it.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by irina »

One problem I have with Masterton is that he suggests a scenario FAR different from the supposed facts. I find a lot of good ideas in his book but don't think the general story has to be radically changed to allow for an intruder. Nobody in the house that day was exactly trying to keep to a time table. Perhaps Bridget was anxious to finish the windows so she could lie down but she did take time to visit with a friend over the fence. Even if Abby planned to go out~note or marketing~she probably wasn't rushing to get her work done before going out. Lizzie said in her testimony that she "could never do anything in a minute" and as far as we know she had no plans for that day.

So we have three people meandering around the house doing ordinary things. Nothing says Abby HAD to meet her end at 9:30 that morning. If she was in a hurry to see a sick friend for example, and rushed through her chores,she could have been killed as early as about 9:00. We don't have any indication anyone was in a hurry to do anything. Thus some time around 9:00 Abby is dusting down stairs, talking with Lizzie and planning to put pillow shams in the guest room. Did she have to go back upstairs to her room for the shams? If so did she spend a chunk of time in her room doing something? Perhaps she took the feather duster up there and spend 10 minutes dusting. Maybe she applied her hair piece at this time. From what I understand the stairs in that house are steep and Abby was older and over weight on a warm day. How long did it take her to climb and descend stairs?

On the other hand she might have had the shams already down stairs or perhaps upstairs from the cellar due to Tuesday's wash. Maybe she ate a pear or had an extra cup of coffee before she went to the guest room. Maybe she didn't get up to the guest room until 9:45 or later. Maybe it was 10:00 or a bit later. Maybe she was killed a bit after 10:00.

The difference this makes is that it would support the idea of an intruder. My general theory is that Lizzie was down cellar, maybe in the WC. Bridget was outside, maybe talking to her friend at the fence. A man came to the side door. Maybe a business acquaintance of Andrew's. Maybe a family member or a bum off the street. I think this person was mentally off, whether mentally ill or under the influence of something. Perhaps Abby told him to come back later to talk to Andrew. Perhaps he wanted to wait inside but Abby said she couldn't allow that since only the women folk were at home. I think Abby thought the situation was under control and didn't see the need to latch the screen which would hamper Bridget's window cleaning efforts.

I think the man was ticked off and seethed inside. "What right do you, Abby Durfee Grey have, to tell me to wait outside in the heat?" comes to mind.

I think he let himself in after Abby had moved away from the door. Perhaps he heard her walking up the stairs. If he was known to the family and could logically explain his presence he may not have been overly concerned about Lizzie seeing him. Possibly he believed Lizzie was in Marion and had no knowledge of her return.

I think the man confronted Abby in the guest room, voicing his anger. I think Abby was a strong character in her own right. Perhaps she did know him and ordered him out in no uncertain terms. Maybe she threatened him. Considering how uninlvolved Lizzie seemed to be in her parents' affairs I could even imagine her knowing someone was in the house and not paying attention or being curious. Anyway I think things went very bad in the upstairs room and the man's anger turned to rage.

If Abby was killed around 10:00 or a bit later then we don't have to deal with the agonizing 90 minutes for an intruder to hide in the guest room. (Though I still believe this wouldn't have been a problem for a psychopath who perhaps enjoyed dead bodies.) Possibly he felt momentarily detained while Lizzie was in her room. Possibly he went downstairs to the parlour where people seldom went and no one entered that morning. By that time he may have been a bit concerned about possible blood stains but chances are his clothing would have been dark and there wasn't a lot of blood.

Someone said my idea that an intruder could have heard downstairs conversation and actions, is not possible. OK. I haven't been there. Conversation COULD be heard from the parlour if a person was hiding there. Maybe his next choice was to slip out past Andrew but Andrew wasn't asleep. Possibly he wasn't afraid of Lizzie seeing him but Andrew would be another matter. On the other hand I think it is very possible that Lizzie went back down cellar after Andrew laid down, and not to the yard or barn at all. (Perhaps this is why she initially said she heard a "groan", heard her father groan, or "heard a distressing noise". Perhaps she did, from downstairs.) If she DID go outside the man may have heard the screen door close.

I don't think there would have been much sound with the actual killing of Abby. I would expect muffled thuds. Whack on a watermelon behind a closed door sometime. I think the sounds of Abby being killed would be less than that. Plus Bridget was washing windows with a brush. I can imagine there would be thudding against windows as Bridget worked. Even if Lizzie heard the sound of Abby being hacked, she may have thought it was Bridget washing windows down stairs.

Finally concerning Abby's blood, hydration status counts. She had vomited so severely on Tuesday night that she thought she had been poisoned. It was hot and people wore lots of clothes so they probably sweated a lot. Older people frequently don't drink enough fluids and Abby was older. Exactly how much fluid would people of those days consume? Water? Coffee or tea with meals? I'd bet that Abby was in a somewhat dehydrated state and that her blood coagulated and dried a lot faster than it would have if she had not been so ill less than 48 hours earlier.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by irina »

Maybe I found it. More options after I had actually saved a draft. Think I did it. :cyclopsani:
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Franz »

Irina, I read your theory with interest. For the moment two points:

1. If I understand well, in your theory, the killer (an intruder) didn't premeditate the murder. Do I understand well? If so, it should imply that he (I think you mean the killer was a man) brought with him something that could be used as the criminal weapon. If not, when and from where did he find it and then used it to kill Abby (and then Andrew)?

2. The note story. If Lizzie was innocent, I don't see why she told a lie, so the note story should be true. So, when did Abby tell her the note story?

(P.S.: Abby's death time never troubled me: for me it is totally possible that a killer hid himself together with his victim in the same room for 90 minutes or more. Even if I believed Lizzie guilty, I would think as well that an intruder could hide himself in the guest room with the body of Abby lying there.)
Last edited by Franz on Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by irina »

Franz: The key to my thought processes is I ask a lot of why and how questions. If I have a theory I work with the simplest possible elements. Since I am a writer I am always thinking, "How would I write this?"

SOMEBODY was REALLY, REALLY mad at Abby that morning in the guest room. I don't think it was premeditated, even if Lizzie did it. I think there was rage.

92 Second St. was a business district. There were stores and places to buy tools...like hatchets...or steal them. When people bought things in those days they didn't throw the package in their car and go on shopping. The hatchet in the Borden murders wasn't that big. One article said a 3.5 inch blade. I think I have read four inches in other places. It would be easy for a man to carry a newly purchased hatchet in a jacket pocket. I have also theorized the hatchet might have been a tool a workman used in his profession. About eight days after the murders apparently someone wrote to Knowlton that the murder weapon was a "lather's hatchet". (This is a very interesting letter purportedly by a Phillip Gordon Reed who no one ever, even until the present day, could find existence for.) I can see this scenario as a reason why the hatchet was taken away by the killer. He may have needed it in the work he did or it may have helped identify him if it was in any way specialized and left behind at the scene.

I think the police checked to see if Lizzie had bought any hatchets in various stores, even stores outside FR. I don't know how hard or if they checked to see how many other people bought hatchets at that time. It wouldn't matter if the hatchet was part of a tool kit a workman used, carried, had, whatever.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Franz »

Irina, we have one common point: me too I think that if the killer was an intruder, it should be much more prudent for him to take his weapon away, for whatever precise reason(s), instead of leaving it at the murder scene.
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curiousmind2014 »

I was in favor of the intruder theory initially. However, given what many witnesses have stated, I feel like the probability of it is low. Also, DNA testing or blood testing was a science never heard of in those days. I don't think presence of a murder weapon would have helped in any way.

My biggest problem with the intruder theory is motive and he had to be extremely lucky for Lizzie, Bridget, Andrew and everyone else not noticing him going in or out of the residence. Also, if we had to believe that he killed Abby at 9:30am; why in the whole world would he stick around upstairs for almost an hour before killing Andrew. And, if we believe that the murder was pre-planned, then Andrew was supposed to come home later than at the time he showed up because of his stomach sickness. This meant the murderer had to stick around longer than he actually did.

This coupled with position of the bodies when being attacked, Lizzie's inconsistent testimony and Bridget's hideous and temperamental behavior during the inquest definitely points towards the fact that the double murder is way beyond a story which claims some crazy person getting in and killing two of them and leaving the house.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by phineas »

I like this thread! I'm not totally sold on the time of death either...and the contents of the stomach compared with Andrew's presupposes that Abby, a large woman, didn't sneak food or continue to eat after breakfast. Maybe Andrew looked askance at her food intake, or the girls pointedly looked in her direction if she took another helping. Maybe she was a secret eater who kept food in the guest room. As to the coagulation of blood, the temperature of the body, as DebbieDiablo says, there's a lot of science that indicates these things don't move with precision in every body.

My bigger problem with time of death is, if Abby is alive at 10AM or 10:20 and there's an intruder scenario, what was she doing upstairs? How come she is never heard from again after heading up to put on the shams. It's perfectly possible that she sewed, or lay down because she felt ill. But her absence does seem to indicate she died early as the doctors believed. Otherwise, I feel like she would have been heard from - my picture of Abby is that she was present, bustling about, always trying to please, a hard worker. Did people disappear in this small house for hours? Despite the locks, it's always seemed to me like a giant fishbowl of too many people and not enough privacy. A hothouse environment where resentment grew because there was no escape. Did they read to escape? I know there were books in the house and magazines, I'd love to know how many.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

Phineas, I agree with you. Apart from an intruder not being seen by neighbours/bystanders, which presents a problem at a time when many people were keenly interested in the local world around them (hey there was no TV or Internet!) the possibility of Abby staying silent in the guest room for hours doing whatever is about nil.

I haven't been to no. 92. However, there is a common theme in the statements of those who have, and that is, how small the house is. However much a person wished to avoid someone you would still be keenly aware of their location. In my brief art school days I shared a very large house with three others. If we had to remain indoors and didn't want to socialise with each other for some reason (concentrate on work) then it was easy to do so. It would not be so in No 92.

Lizzie stated to Fleet, in her first witness statement, that she passed Abby in the guest room when she went down to breakfast at 9am. If we believe her (and there's no reason not to) then Abby had gone up early to make the grubby John Morse's bed, possibly soon after he saw her pass into the front lobby to dust that room. Is it likely that in such a household Abby would remain closeted upstairs in the guest room for the rest of the morning, especially, as you have pointed out, she was the bustling housewife type?

The fact is, that apart from Lizzie, no-one can track Abby's movements from the time Bridget received her orders about the windows and John Morse saw her go into the hall. I am inclined to vote not for a later than 9:30am death but in fact for a slightly earlier one, after Andrew's departure and Bridget collecting all her equipment and departing to get water from the barn.

I'm now not going to spoil the theories on this thread by being a wet blanket and arguing it, as I think everyone should have the freedom to develop alternative theories on another murderer without a Lizzieite interfering.

I wish Possum would have given his theory of the time of death one more time however. Possum, where are you??
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by debbiediablo »

Let's say Abby died a little after 10:00 AM. This gives Lizzie (or any other killer who plans to take out Andrew, too) one hour less to for the body to be discovered. That's an advantage to whoever the murderer was. If Abby planned to babysit and then wasn't needed she may have been doing almost anything up there....maybe airing out the room after Uncle John....or taking a sneaky nap because she was unwell...or mending something...or airing out the room after Uncle John for a second time... :smiliecolors:

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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

I'm back! That resolution didn't last long!

Debbie, I haven't read Masterson's book, 'Lizzie Didn't Do It! I understand he proposes, as well as another murderer, a different later time of death for Abby. What is his explanation for this and his theory of the blood evidence?

Incidentally, I think it would be marvellous for any poster who has contact with doctors, psychiatrists, chemists etc (I don't) to run the case past them and get their opinion. This was done with Jack the Ripper, and in fact a London surgeon started The Ripperologist, an early magazine, because of his interest in the case. Modern opinions on time of death, blood evidence, (thank you Possum, debbie) are always useful.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by debbiediablo »

Oddly Masterson refutes the gastric emptying opinions but is perfectly willing to accept 1890s blood evidence. As you might guess he thinks a thermometer to measure body temperature would've been a good idea. The GE research is mine...but Masterson found much of the same information elsewhere. He thinks Abby was killed shortly after Andrew, and I find this difficult to believe without a clearer picture of how blood oozes out and congeals once the heart stops. Plus we don't have much in the way of original blood analysis. The book itself veers into uncharted and highly questionable territory, but it did point me to some interesting directions. Masterson ends by refuting evidence against Lizzie without thoughtful analysis which I found highly annoying. Then he picks one of three suspects Palmer, Clegg and Carpenter as the likely Borden "Nemesis"...or maybe somebody else. I did like his method of comparison in the first half, and the guy can be very funny.... :smiliecolors:

Corrected the sentence, "Plus we don't have much in the way of original blood analysis," where I left out three words that made the meaning incomprehensible.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by PossumPie »

OK...It all depends what perspective you are arguing. A defense attorney would take each "evidence" that Abby died early, and pick it apart. She COULD have had slow digestion, she COULD have nibbled, her blood COULD have somehow had slow clotting...etc. This puts reasonable doubt in people's minds. A more scientific perspective looks at ALL of the evidence, acknowledges that there be variance, and says that the parsimonious answer is that if a dozen separate variables point to 9:30 than that is PROBABLY the time she died.

Let's say as a historian you came across an old cabin. You did tree ring studies on the wood, and the trees dated from 1723-1760. You conclude that it was built no earlier that 1760, and probably around that time. Someone says "It could have been built yesterday, with very old logs!" You then look inside and see an old stone hearth with wear marks in it from pots being dragged across. The soot in the chimney is an inch thick. You deduce that it indeed was in use a very long time, and used for cooking, all which support your theory that it was probably from the mid 1700s. The skeptic says "Yes, but it COULD have been built yesterday, and just made to look very old by someone sand blasting the hearth and spraying the soot on thick.

You see how a slick person can argue ANYTHING logically, but in reality, if you look at what MOST LIKELY happened, the simplest explanation is usually correct. Abby was seen about 9:30 then NEVER SEEN ALIVE AGAIN by any of the people in the house. Abby was seen last in the room she died in. Abby had stomach contents that had not digested much. Abby's blood had coagulated longer than Andrews. Heat, Humidity, etc were the same for both bodies. COMPARING the clotting to how much Andrew's clotted - we know his T.O.D. Compared to Andrew's time of death, Abby's blood was in an advanced state of coagulation. Sure a defense attorney can pick that apart and say some rare blood disorder could have caused her blood to clot faster (excess of vitamin K for example) BUT as I said, take all of the small things together, and it points to an early death.

The coagulation of blood in the larger pools happened much earlier in Mrs. Borden. The chemical process of fibrinogen converting to fibrin and clotting in large pools can be roughly calculated based on time since spilled, amount of blood, and temperature. The blood in a dead body ceases to be able to coagulate due to the release of fibrinolysins, That is why we can tell if a body has been moved post mortem- Livor Mortis is the pooling of un-cloted blood in the lower areas of the body due to gravity. The back, arms and legs of a body laying on it's back will be purple, while the belly and chest will be white. BUT, the blood that has pooled around a body will harden and clot at a given rate because there is no fibrinolysis outside the body. There was extensive clotting/drying of the blood around the body, pointing to a much earlier time of death than Mr. Borden.
Also, they ate about the same time but the peristalsis through the upper GI tract of Mrs. Borden shows much less digestion than Mr. Borden, pointing to death of Mrs. Borden very soon after ingestion of the food. If she had been killed much later than 9:30 the stomach acid and pancreatic enzymes would have digested her food to a greater extent than was seen in autopsy.
Taken along with the blood coagulation, Andrew had about an hour and a half longer time to live.
Abby left to go upstairs about 9:30am with some slip covers for the bed in the room she was found dead in. She more than likely was putting on those covers when she met her death. No one else saw or heard from her after that period. We know T.O.D. of Mr. Borden was about 11:00-11:10am, working backwards, Mrs. Borden was likely killed about 9:30-9:45am. Masterson cherry-picks the blood coagulation argument (that they didn't find her body until later explaining the coagulation) but ignores the fact that at the moment of death, pancreatic enzymes and digestion stops, giving you and accurate length of time between ingestion of food and stoppage of digestion.

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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Franz »

Curiousmind2014 wrote:I was in favor of the intruder theory initially. However, given what many witnesses have stated, I feel like the probability of it is low. Also, DNA testing or blood testing was a science never heard of in those days. I don't think presence of a murder weapon would have helped in any way.
...
I think the point is more psychological than technical or scientifical. If I were the killer and if it were easy for me to take away my weapon, I would certainly take it away, in order not to leave nothing in the hands of the police. And then, who knows? Could the weapon be an instrument the killer used to use, so it could run the risk to reveal the identity of its owner?

If the killer was an intruder, I think the note couldn't come from anyone but the killer(s) himself (themselves). So within the hypothesis that the killer was not Lizzie, I am not surprised that the note was never found. The reason is the same: the real killer, as for his weapon, somehow regained the note in his possession and took it away, in order not to leave it (as an evidence) in the hands of the police.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by PossumPie »

Franz wrote:
Curiousmind2014 wrote:I was in favor of the intruder theory initially. However, given what many witnesses have stated, I feel like the probability of it is low. Also, DNA testing or blood testing was a science never heard of in those days. I don't think presence of a murder weapon would have helped in any way.
...
I think the point is more psychological than technical or scientifical. If I were the killer and if it were easy for me to take away my weapon, I would certainly take it away, in order not to leave nothing in the hands of the police. And then, who knows? Could the weapon be an instrument the killer used to use, so it could run the risk to reveal the identity of its owner?

If the killer was an intruder, I think the note couldn't come from anyone but the killer(s) himself (themselves). So within the hypothesis that the killer was not Lizzie, I am not surprised that the note was never found. The reason is the same: the real killer, as for his weapon, somehow regained the note in his possession and took it away, in order not to leave it (as an evidence) in the hands of the police.

Any time we say an answer to a problem should be found psychologically not technically or scientifically, we move from evidential proof (we proved that the earth revolves around the sun, not vice versa) and into guesswork ( I would have...I think someone would...). I have a Master's degree in Psychology, and it is NOT science, no matter what anyone says. It is guesswork, interpretation, and 90% Horse manure...

If anyone has any interest in the difference, pick up a copy of M.Pigliucci - Nonsense on Stilts, How to Tell Science from Bunk It is a bit tough to read 'for fun' but he does a WONDERFUL job differentiating between the soft sciences such as ecology and economics, pseudo-science like psychology, and the hard sciences such as physics and chemistry which are 'provable'.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Franz »

PossumPie, Curiosumind2014 said that he didn't think "the presence of a murder weapon would have helped (to identify the killer) in any way", because there were no DNA or other scientifical methods as today. In my reply to his observation, my point is this: (what he said is certainly true), even though, the killer might have thought that it would be more prudent to take away his weapon instead of leaving it on the murder scene.

By saying so, I certainly make a conjecture (scientifically I can't prove that the killer (if an intruder) did think so in his mind). I am not sure if my argument is psychological or pseudo-psychological, but I realy DON'T think that an argument like the mine is not admissible in our forum.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

Whoever took the hatchet away or hid or disposed of it or threw it on the barn roof, did it because, in my opinion, it had identifying features or manufacturing number or retail number on it which could not easily come off. Or else it would have been left in the house!
Nothing to do with fingerprints, science or anything else!
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Franz »

Curryong wrote:Whoever took the hatchet away or hid or disposed of it or threw it on the barn roof, did it because, in my opinion, it had identifying features or manufacturing number or retail number on it which could not easily come off. Or else it would have been left in the house!
Nothing to do with fingerprints, science or anything else!
Curryong, what you said is probable.

But IMO, even if there was nothing on the weapon that could reveal somehow the identity of the killer, it would be in anyway more prudent to take it away (if it was easy to do so).
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by PossumPie »

One thing for sure, it was not found. Franz is correct, most people would hide/take the weapon away b/c the risk of it being used to identify the killer would be too high. If Lizzie was the killer, she would have had to hide it well. If an outsider was the killer, they either hid it well, or took it with them.

It is reasonable to speculate psychologically as long as we don't throw away scientific evidence. If an owl swoops down on me in the dark of night, it could be an alien life form disguised as an owl come to observe our planet....or it could be a plain old owl. Neither is impossible, but using basic science (Nothing can travel faster than light and 99.999999% of planets are too far away from earth to travel to in a lifetime, chances are scientifically that it was NOT an alien who traveled millions of years just to dive bomb my head and fly away.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by irina »

I never accepted Masterton's theory that Mr. and Mrs. Borden were killed at about the same time. Increments of a quarter to half an hour might be important in the case but I absolutely reject the idea that Abby was killed any later than 10:15 and I favour the idea she was killed anout 9:45.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

Abby, who had managed to wolf down some baker's bread and a pork chop for her Wednesday breakfast before rushing over to Dr Borden's complaining of sickness and poison, may well have felt more spry on the Thursday morning. Her breakfast may therefore have been larger than Andrew's, who, after all, complained of feeling ill when he was downtown.
As I've said in another post I think Abby died at around 9:30am or even a few minutes earlier.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by debbiediablo »

I don't know when Abby died, and if Lizzie killed her then it makes no difference. However, I'm not willing to accept 1890s forensics when we know so much more now, and much of what we know now contradicts what was believed back then.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Bronte »

I am probably wrong about what I am going to ask but I cannot help myself since this is a thread about the position that Abby's body was found..I was watching a clip from the FRHS and on it one of the directors said that it had just recently came out through letters that Abby was actually found half under the bed and that the doctor had to pull her out in order to examine her..I wish I could find that clip because I know I heard it..Someone please let me know if there is any truth to this? to me it seems impossible that she would have been able to crawl like that after the first blow hit her ..
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by irina »

There has been some discussion about that over time. What I get from what's posted is that the bed was too low to the floor for her to have really tried to crawl under. The forensics, such as they were, said the blows to her head came from left to right which makes me think her head was kind of pounded toward under the bed. It is also said that the killer straddled her body and that the first couple blows killed her so I don't think there was much time for her to crawl under the bed. There were a number of questions asked of those first on the scene as to whether they moved her body and if so, how much. The main thing I think about her body being moved is the ultimate position of her arms and hands, whether under her body about chest high or slightly above her head.

Please don't worry about asking questions. I belong to several forums and whenever someone is new they don't know everything that has happened. I started posting here last spring. I have made my mistakes also and recently there was a little dust up which also concerned some of my mistakes. There is a way to send personal messages to other members. You can find it on the control panel. How it works for me is the message comes to my regular e-mail, so I get it like regular mail & can respond quickly. Feel free to contact me anytime with any question. I'm not saying I'm the best expert but I like to answer questions. I promise I won't push any theories on you or anyone and if I don't feel I can answer something I'd sure pass it on to others. :wink:
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

That goes for all of us. Also, the answering questions bit! We are all learning here on the forum and giving our opinions as well!
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

I think this is the link, Bronte.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5315&p=84580&hilit= ... bby#p84580
the video is on page 3 of the All about Abby thread and we discuss that very subject!
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by twinsrwe »

Bronte, according to the Andrew Jennings Journals, which were donated to the FRHA, the original position of Abby’s body was about a foot under the bed. (NOTE: There was no indication of which part of her body was under the bed; I'm wondering if it was just her right elbow and upper arm, since she had her hands under her head. If her head was under the bed then how in the world would the killer have administered the blows after she had died? I'm sure she didn't crawl under the bed after 19 blows were administered to her head!) However, neither Dr. Bowen nor Dr. Dolan pulled her out from under the bed in order to examine her; the bed was moved by Officer Patrick Doherty. (Check out the threads I have post below, the first one goes in depth about the position of Abby's body).

I found a video on YouTube where Dennis Binette, the Assistance Curator at the Fall River Historical Society, states that when Abby’s body was found it was about one foot under the bed. Is this the clip you are referring to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C77TckcWHlk


You may be interested in reading through the previous threads, which I found here on the forum, regarding Abby’s body. Note: there are other threads, but these are the ones I found most interesting, especially the first one listed.

New evidence
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5227

Abby's body moved?
http://tinyurl.com/k7q72k8


I also found the following news articles about the journals of Andrew Jennings being donated to the FRHS, which you may find interesting:

http://tinyurl.com/7op63tk

http://tinyurl.com/k9jtjwq

http://tinyurl.com/odsgvxa
Last edited by twinsrwe on Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by twinsrwe »

Oops, Curryong, I didn't see your post before I submitted mine. Sorry. :oops: It should be OK though, because I have different topic threads than you do. :grin:
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by twinsrwe »

I agree with Irina and Curryong. we welcome questions, and do our best to answer them. As far as making mistakes goes, I've been a member of this forum since 2005, and I still make mistakes! The other members are very good at correcting the incorrect information, without making me feel like a fool, which I greatly appreciate. :grin: So, feel free to post questions, as well as your opinions!
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

No, that's absolutely fine twins, the more info the better!
Now, in my opinion ('smile') there is no way, having seen a photo of the original bed, that Abby would have been able to get anything but perhaps a hand under it.

I'm not medically trained but Possum is, and he posted his professional opinion on several threads (including the All About Abby one where we looked at the video and discussed the subject) that Abby would have been deeply unconscious after the first couple of blows. She had facial bruising, which Possum believes is because she didn't even throw her arms out to save herself as she was falling (which we all do instinctively when we trip) and therefore her face hit the carpet.

Deeply unconscious and dead people don't crawl under beds. I think the FRHS ought to take another look at the subject with a medical professional. In addition, no testimony of Dr Bowen or Dr Dolan, both of whom ought to know, speaks about Abby being found under the bed, let alone a foot under. They moved the bed in order for grown males to get into that narrow space where Abby was lying between dressing table and bed. Also, the cumbersome photographic equipment of those days meant the photographer's tripod had to go where the bed usually stood so the bed was pushed back again.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by twinsrwe »

The statement of 'Abby was about one foot under the bed' came from Andrew Jennings private journals. Dennis was only relating what was noted by Jennings in those journals.

As I stated in my post: There was no indication of which part of her body was under the bed; I'm wondering if it was just her right elbow and upper arm, since she had her hands under her head. If her head was under the bed then how in the world would the killer have administered the blows after she had died? I'm sure she didn't crawl under the bed after 19 blows were administered to her head!

Why Dr. Bowen and Dr. Dolan were not questioned about this is, IMO, another Borden Case Mystery!

Yes, Possum's professional opinion was posted in several threads, and it is the best detailed description I've ever seen!
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

With all due respect to Jennings I think he was mistaken or muddled or something! Dr Bowen gave testimony that when he saw her (and he was the first medico in the guest room) Abby's elbow was at right angles and her hands/lower arms were a little above her breastbone, under her body. I know the poor old thing got into a bit of a state seeing his old friend like that, but if any parts of Abby's body were under the bed I think he would have mentioned it. Abby crumpled and then fell after two blows, possibly even one blow, and was unconscious. I think she probably didn't know what hit her, it was so swift and sudden.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by irina »

But then we take into account the flap cut on the left side of her head~was she facing the assailant? And the chop a bit below the neck to her back which also hit part of the spine~is that what knocked her down to the floor? Was the death blow the third or fourth? How much might a body relaxed in death have eased toward under the bed? A foot isn't much.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by debbiediablo »

Curryong wrote:With all due respect to Jennings I think he was mistaken or muddled or something! Dr Bowen gave testimony that when he saw her (and he was the first medico in the guest room) Abby's elbow was at right angles and her hands/lower arms were a little above her breastbone, under her body. I know the poor old thing got into a bit of a state seeing his old friend like that, but if any parts of Abby's body were under the bed I think he would have mentioned it. Abby crumpled and then fell after two blows, possibly even one blow, and was unconscious. I think she probably didn't know what hit her, it was so swift and sudden.
Didn't Bowen also think she might still be alive? For this alone I'm inclined to significantly discount his testimony, not because he was so dumb that he couldn't distinguish living from dead but because of the shock of finding his across-the-street neighbors and friends of his wife's parents dead by hatchet to head.

Agree with Irina: the force of blows from a left handed killer could've moved Abby's upper body to where it might look as though she were attempting to crawl under the bed. Sadly, Abby knew what hit her, however briefly, long enough to turn away from the first blow and then fall face forward. Exactly like a tree.

Somewhere I copied and pasted eye witness testimony to a woman being struck in the head from behind with the blunt side of an 8 lb. axe. The victim's hands came up about chest high in a defensive motion even though the first blow alone would've been fatal. Maybe this is an autonomic response to being struck in the back of the head...just guessing.

I think Abby turned to flee, started to raise her arms either to protect the back of her head or else against falling onto her face. But she never got her hands fully into the air. Instead they fell beneath her...which is not the natural position when being hit from behind and then falling forward like a tree. This would seem to leave the arms splayed at the sides, not at angles from the elbows.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by irina »

I remember you posting that Debbie, last summer. It was about another criminal who hit women in the head with a sledge hammer type thing. I remember that case also.

I don't think the killer of Abby need be left handed to deliver left to right blows. As a right handed person (primarily) I visualize the killer swinging the hatchet across the body, to the left and up in almost an arc. The down swing would be similar. Think about it. If we could absolutely say the killer was left handed then we could discuss Lizzie's handedness, but I see nothing to say the killer was necessarily left handed or that there is anything that definitely rules out Lizzie as being physically able to have done both murders. (That's too bad since I think she's innocent. :wink: )
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by twinsrwe »

I agree, Debbie. Dr. Bowen initially thought Abby had just fainted, didn't he? I'm sure he was shaken seeing two of his patients, neighbors and friends of his wife, hacked to death in such a horrible manner! :shaking:

I also agree with Irina. Both Debbie and Irina bring out very good points.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by irina »

Consider poor Dr. Bowen's life on that day. As a good Christian man he probably didn't read true crime of penny dreadfuls or whatever they had. I don't know if he had experience in the Civil War but think he did not. There was nothing to prepare him for what he saw and the concept of double homicide (family by axe no less) was unimaginable to him, as well as undiagnosable. (It bothers me he didn't assess Abby's condition or try to revive her if he thought she had fainted.) Every so often I accidentally see something on the internet which is intensely upsetting to me, but considering some of my hobbies (true crime), and medical training, I have a little bit of preparation. Bowen walked right into it, murdered friends and neighbors no less.

Now if someone could scratch up some diaries or personal papers from Bowen, we might have some new information...
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Bronte »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5p8-MOvXnU
I found this clip of Maple Croft ..I was so excited just wish it had been longer and really allowed the viewer's to see what her house was like on the inside..
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Bronte »

I just got through watching the YouTube from FRHA and yes that is the one that I watched a few months ago..I knew I had heard them discuss her body being halfway under the bed like she was trying to crawl away from her killer.I personally do not see how that would have been possible but I am such a "Newbie" that I get excited over this stuff that is spoken by the experts and the I have to catch myself from accepting it as so just because they said it was ..Lol!..I am also reading through the links thanks to each one of you for taking the time to answer my questions and I will continue learning about all things Lizzie by such a knowledgeable group of people..
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

Maplecroft was a beautiful place, wasn't it and I'm sure Lizzie kept it in wonderful condition. I can just see her on her porch feeding the squirrels and glorying in her two reading rooms and bathroom! Unfortunately Maplecroft's fallen on hard times in the last few years and apparently is looking a bit shabby and in need of some TLC. It was a rather unsuccessful B and B I believe. I think Anthony was seriously thinking of putting in a bid for it a few months ago when it was on the market and restoring it to its former glory. The owner wanted a lot for it, though.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by twinsrwe »

Bronte wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5p8-MOvXnU
I found this clip of Maple Croft ..I was so excited just wish it had been longer and really allowed the viewer's to see what her house was like on the inside..
That is an interesting video of Maplecroft, for sure. I also wish it had been longer! It’s very unfortunate for us Lizzie buffs, that Mr. Dube decided the house tours were getting to be too much. :sad:

Here is a video on 92 second street, that is fairly new, that you may be interested in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqTEHwhBd4c
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by twinsrwe »

Bronte wrote:I just got through watching the YouTube from FRHA and yes that is the one that I watched a few months ago..I knew I had heard them discuss her body being halfway under the bed like she was trying to crawl away from her killer.I personally do not see how that would have been possible but I am such a "Newbie" that I get excited over this stuff that is spoken by the experts and the I have to catch myself from accepting it as so just because they said it was ..Lol!..I am also reading through the links thanks to each one of you for taking the time to answer my questions and I will continue learning about all things Lizzie by such a knowledgeable group of people..
You're very welcome for the links provided. I'm glad I was able to find the video you were referring to. It is, for sure, an interesting one.

Not to discredit Andrew Jennings nor Dennis Binette, but I don’t see how it is possible that Abby ‘crawled’ a foot under the bed in an attempt to escape. There is no testimony regarding Abby’s body being found a foot under the bed, however, I have to believe Dennis when he states that this tidbit of information was in Jennings’ personal journals. If this information is true, then I still think it was probably Abby’s right elbow and upper arm that was under the bed. Irina also had a logical explanation of how this may have happened. ‘The forensics, such as they were, said the blows to her head came from left to right which makes me think her head was kind of pounded toward under the bed.’

If you look at the crime scene photos of Abby, it is feasible that both Irina’s explanation, as well as mine could have occurred.
abby-c.jpg
See how close Abby's body is to the bed.
Borden1.jpg
See the position Abby's right arm and elbow are in.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by debbiediablo »

abby2-edit.png
abby1-edit.png
This doesn't look quite normal to me although it's not exactly like I'm an expert on the collapse of murder victims. Her dress on only her right side is flattened and the front of somewhat pulled up at the ankles. I wouldn't expect her to fall neatly to the floor; this may be why the murderer was thought to sit on her back but then there'd be a depression or dishevelment of her blouse or upper skirt. Anyway, this gives me pause.

I'm wondering about sitting on her butt.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

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Dr Bowen gave testimony about when he first saw her in the guest bedroom.

Q. Now do you recall-of course you knew her well and knew she was a stout woman-do you recall how much of that space between the bureau and the bed she filled up; whether she practically occupied, when lying on her face, the space between the bureau and the bed?

A She filled it up very well, very thoroughly, very fully.

Q And when you went to ascertain whether or not life was extinct, upon which side of her did you go?

A. On the right side, between the form and the bed.

Q And were you able to get there easily, or did you have some difficulty on account of the narrowness of the space?

A I had some difficulty on account of the space. I didn't wish to move the bed at all; I didn't wish to move anything.

Q Then you had to sort of work your way in there to feel the injuries upon her head and to get at her pulse?

A. Yes sir.

Page 319

Q Now, when you were making that examination, namely the examination with reference to her pulse, which wrist did you take?

A. The right wrist.

Q.The right wrist?

A. Yes sir.

Q That would be the wrist which would be next to you when you went in upon her right side, of course, between her and the bed?

A. Yes sir.

Q. When you took the right wrist did you feel of the pulse of that, or the place where the pulse should be in that wrist when it was under her, or did you have to draw it out slightly?

A I had to draw it out slightly, I presume.

Q Have you any doubt of that?

A No sir, no doubt of it.

Q Then, when you left her, after having ascertained that life was extinct by feeling of the wrist, didn't you leave one arm, namely the right arm, drawn out from her side a little more than the left arm would appear to be upon the other side?

A Yes sir, I think I did.

Dr Bowen assisted Dr Dolan and Patrolman Doherty when further examination proceeded. The bed was moved the body was moved.

On redirect Bowen looked at the photos and said that when he first saw her, Abby's hands were a little higher, above the breastbone and under her.

It's pretty clear that while everyone concerned tried to put things back the way they were when Abby was murdered, the body's limbs were moved several times, and the bed was moved. It's also clear from Bowen's description in the witness box that no part of Abby's body was under the bed at this or any other time.
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

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What's bothering me is the flatness of her skirt, more likely her apron, on the left side. And the way her skirt is up from her ankles in the front. It's almost bunched under her left side and also behind her knees. Maybe Bowen rolled her clockwise a little more than his testimony would indicate...or someone did. I can't decide what doesn't look natural, but something bothers me.

edit: fixed a typo that sounded worse than Forrest Gump!
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by Curryong »

I've never worn long skirts with petticoats underneath except years ago when I did some amateur acting. I've never fallen in clothing like that. Is it possible that after it was all done the killer rolled her over somehow, just to take one last look? Or got off her body (if straddling her behind) and left a flat impression on the skirt? Or maybe her clothing somehow bunched to one side as she fell?
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Re: What Time Did Abby Really Die?

Post by irina »

I think her skirt got in whatever condition because of the killer walking around/straddling her, and doctors and investigators doing similar. It looks to me that her head is slightly more toward the bed than her hips and feet but again I think the act of murder could have driven the upper part of her body that direction.
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