Is it to much to ask????

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debbiediablo
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by debbiediablo »

Dubito, ergo sum.
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My almost sleeping puppy being allowed to lie - wordplay intentional.
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by Curryong »

Very good, debbie! All the same, would love to hear from Tim.
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by Aamartin »

I went to The Travel Channel's website. I did a search for Lizzie and found no new links regarding any upcoming programs. I tried the contact us link and only got a page where I could ask questions about my specific television provider and it's programming, etc. I did try to send a question that way. I will look further as to a way to contact them... I REALLY hope these letters do exist, they would be a bombshell.

However, their existence, even if authenticated do not solve the case. I would think they could only be authenticated as to age and perhaps handwriting analysis if handwriting samples of the person(s) writing the letter(s) match credible signatures or handwriting of the same people, ie- public documents, etc.

Years ago I did a search on Ebay for 'Lizzie Borden' then clicked 'follow this search'. Since then, every time something with anything to do with Lizzie is posted, I get an alert. I did not receive one for any kind of satchel or bag....
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by Aamartin »

The Barks-A-Lot gang
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by Curryong »

These are all such cute dogs! Lucky pets/family members, lucky owners!
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by Stefani »

BOBO wrote:Could we PLEASE keep the forum to discussing the case?? We get so off track that folks lose interest. May I suggest that if we have a different reply to the subject posted that we reply with a PM or a EMAIL?? I mean no harm, but this has long since gotten out of hand. New forum members really doesn't care what your pet eats. JUST SAYING.
Just so you know, in case you don't, this forum exists and THRIVES (and ebbs and wanes) because of the conversations and the generally genial nature of the members. I don't think a new person, like yourself, has any right to impose his will on the board in terms of pleading with folks to be on point at all times. This is how we have survived as long as we have, while other boards have failed. Conversations flow naturally, and you can choose to ignore a comment, ignore a user, or ignore a thread, should you choose to do so.

This board started in December of 2003. Let that sink in a minute. 2003. A full 11 years! Plus, we had a few years before that on Arborwood (which I just remembered). That is a tremendous feat in terms of longevity. We have had our fair share of controversy, trolls, fake identities, and flame throwers. But they are weeded out as they become known and we get back down to business. We have been told off by members who have found religion and sign off by telling us we are going to hell. We have been tricked by a pretty nasty person who continues to lurk, even after attempting on more than a dozen occasions to sign up here using fake identities (both male and female), only to attack me personally.

We have survived. People come and go. They lose interest, they lose their passwords, they decide to turn their attentions to other interests. They die. We have lost many good people over the years (Terrence Duniho, William Schley-Ulrich, Joe Carlson, Harry Widdows). Real people. Great people. Great friends. Lovely human beings.

And through it all we continue the discussion.

One thing you said, BOBO, that made me ponder your ulterior motives for being here was the comment that the Grein family won't come on this forum BECAUSE we people go off track in their conversations. Bull. People chose not to come to a forum because people are mean and nasty. Most often, people appreciate a casual side conversation. Threads are not hijacked here anymore. If someone wants to talk about their dog or cat in the middle of discussion about axes, it is a welcome relief for some. And it is how conversations naturally evolve.

So I must say that I don't believe you when you cite the Grein's reaction to this forum as proof that we are getting out of hand. We really aren't. And the very thing you say they don't like is what has kept this board running for 11 years.

Tell the Greins for me they are welcome here. But we won't change what we are or who we are for you or them.
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by Aamartin »

we really do need a like button!
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by Stefani »

Aamartin wrote:we really do need a like button!
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by debbiediablo »

We need names, Anthony, to go with those uber-cute canine countenances.
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by Aamartin »

top to botom:

Lucie
Bengy
Petra
Fred
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by debbiediablo »

They're all perfect and Petra is a flirt...:-)
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by debbiediablo »

The previous puppy is Kiffie. This is Otep. They are littermates - Lhasa Apso mother and Bichon Frise father. I did not name either of them. Photos taken in the home of my youngest daughter.
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by twinsrwe »

Stefani wrote:
BOBO wrote:Could we PLEASE keep the forum to discussing the case?? We get so off track that folks lose interest. May I suggest that if we have a different reply to the subject posted that we reply with a PM or a EMAIL?? I mean no harm, but this has long since gotten out of hand. New forum members really doesn't care what your pet eats. JUST SAYING.
Just so you know, in case you don't, this forum exists and THRIVES (and ebbs and wanes) because of the conversations and the generally genial nature of the members. I don't think a new person, like yourself, has any right to impose his will on the board in terms of pleading with folks to be on point at all times. This is how we have survived as long as we have, while other boards have failed. Conversations flow naturally, and you can choose to ignore a comment, ignore a user, or ignore a thread, should you choose to do so.

This board started in December of 2003. Let that sink in a minute. 2003. A full 11 years! Plus, we had a few years before that on Arborwood (which I just remembered). That is a tremendous feat in terms of longevity. We have had our fair share of controversy, trolls, fake identities, and flame throwers. But they are weeded out as they become known and we get back down to business. We have been told off by members who have found religion and sign off by telling us we are going to hell. We have been tricked by a pretty nasty person who continues to lurk, even after attempting on more than a dozen occasions to sign up here using fake identities (both male and female), only to attack me personally.

We have survived. People come and go. They lose interest, they lose their passwords, they decide to turn their attentions to other interests. They die. We have lost many good people over the years (Terrence Duniho, William Schley-Ulrich, Joe Carlson, Harry Widdows). Real people. Great people. Great friends. Lovely human beings.

And through it all we continue the discussion.

One thing you said, BOBO, that made me ponder your ulterior motives for being here was the comment that the Grein family won't come on this forum BECAUSE we people go off track in their conversations. Bull. People chose not to come to a forum because people are mean and nasty. Most often, people appreciate a casual side conversation. Threads are not hijacked here anymore. If someone wants to talk about their dog or cat in the middle of discussion about axes, it is a welcome relief for some. And it is how conversations naturally evolve.

So I must say that I don't believe you when you cite the Grein's reaction to this forum as proof that we are getting out of hand. We really aren't. And the very thing you say they don't like is what has kept this board running for 11 years.

Tell the Greins for me they are welcome here. But we won't change what we are or who we are for you or them.
Thank you, Stefani.
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by twinsrwe »

Anthony, the Barks-A-Lot gang are just adorable! Thank you for giving us their names, which fit them well. :grin:

Debbie, your little cuties appear to be full of mischief! :lol:

Thanks to both of you for submitting these pictures!
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In remembrance of my beloved son:
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“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

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Aamartin wrote:we really do need a like button!
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by Stefani »

Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by patsy »

Yes I'll say it too. Please, Tim, show us at least one letter.

I've read this forum and the old forum for years and probably don't post as much because I'm always so busy reading. But I hope no one leaves because everyone has something of interest to contribute even if some of it has been discussed before. I'm hanging in here until we get our hands on the Robinson papers even if they hold no smoking gun. I dream a lot.

Glad those dogs got back home in that video. Hahaa
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by Curryong »

I think all the animals, dogs, cats, shown, are adorable. Pets are fantastic aren't they (though I have none at the moment.) They keep us young! What unusual names your daughter's puppies have, debbie.
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

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Petra, who I call Pootsie is the oldest. We got her from a reputable breeder. "Reserving" her before she was even born. Luckily we did as she turned out to be an 'only child' litter.
Bengy (Boozer) came home with us after my mom traveled to Spain and stayed with a friend there who had a Yorkie. He was in a storefront breeder/groomer shop. I think he was not treated well as a pup and as a result can be a nipper.
I got Lucie from a local rescue right after I lost my mother. When I went to see her she saucily barked at me and was a bit standoffish. I didn't know if she was the kind of dog who would get along well with men-- but she is now my faithful little Lucie-Goosey!
Fred came from the same rescue. The lady who runs it called me and told me she was desperate to find him a home and would waive the $150 fee as he would be euthanized soon! (she knew who to call). I was at work at the time, and left right away to go look at him. He ran around in a circle and piddled on the floor when we met! But he is no shrinking violet anymore! Fred is the reason I had to buy a better vacuum! He sheds like crazy! In fact, when I went to get him and bring him home I had to borrow a friend's car as I had car pooled to work that day and didn't have mine. She still gives me grief over the dog hair she had in her car for months after.
Unless it is bitterly cold, I walk them about a mile each day. (Not Boozer-- he refuses to walk, so it's like pulling a dust mop along on a leash!) I have a leash that goes around my waist. I know what a dog sled feels like!
They bark a lot! I live on a busy street for pedestrian traffic. I don't always like it, but no stranger could come near my house without me knowing it. Had the Bordens had this bunch (I am making this effort as a minuscule attempt to be on topic) we could rule out the intruder theory without doubt! All of 2nd street would have heard the cacophony of yips and yaps!
As an aside (and an effort to veer even more off topic) I do not subscribe to Cesar Milan's theories on pack and pack leaders. These dogs sleep with me (3 of them under the covers) and I open feed them. With dishes of food and water in both the kitchen and my bedroom. Pootsie and Lucie had some tussles when Lucie first came and like a fool I barreled right in and separated them each time. Got bit twice! But now they all get along.
I have a cream colored reclining love seat (cream? You ask-- with dogs? I know!) and when watching TV or reading after work, I recline both sides. Petra is on my lap, curled up like a croissant, Fred is right next to me on my right side, both under the blanket I always use, Lucie is over by the other arm and Boozer on the other foot rest.
I LOVE my dogs. More than I like most people!
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by snokkums »

Don't we have something better to do instead of arguing over what people post? Come guys, this is a friendly website. Besides, I like to hear about peoples pets. After all, Lizzie loved animals.
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by twinsrwe »

Stefani, I can see why you couldn't resist posting your animated cat pic. :lol:
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by twinsrwe »

...
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Post by InterestedReader »

Curryong wrote:Please Tim, this is an appeal to you. I am begging you, begging, for the sake of this forum, to scan just one letter and post it here, just so we can read one letter.

If you have sold all the important and vital ones then post the scan of a non-vital one here, with Sarah's signature or Mary Grein's. We are your friends here on this forum, aren't we? I've always thought the little group who posted here were Internet friends, even though I've only been here a year. Please!

The trouble is, we have seen nothing but a few sentences from the letters.We want and need more, impatient as we are!


Mary Green could not write, and she could not read.

It says so on the 1880 Census.

She was still illiterate in 1910.
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by John Watson »

Wow, I can't remember ever seeing this much fire and brimstone on the forum! New posters may seem to "clog up" the works with elementary questions or genuine misunderstanding of the facts of the case - BUT they can also bring a fresh view to old ideas even while challenging some of the pet theories held by more senior members. With a little patience and forbearance, perhaps the more senior members can teach and guide instead of grumble and criticize. Just an opinion.
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by SallyG »

What ever happened with these alleged letters? I was doubtful about the whole scenario from the beginning...specifically because of the claim that the FBI has "authenticated" the letters. How did they "authenticate" them, especially since the FBI does not do that sort of thing. Is there any historical proof that any of the individuals involved actually existed? I have seen no published book. I have seen no program on the Travel Channel. In my opinion, the forum was the victim of a hoax!
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by InterestedReader »

Mary Green existed.
She was a servant all her life and at the time of the 1880 Census she happened to be working for the Bordens. She was then in her 'thirties.

And her name was 'Green'. 'Grein' is just a transcription error. When the hoaxer hit on the 1880 Census record he failed to see the error. He then replicated the misspelling throughout his accounts of a 'Grein family' correspondence and his dealings with the 'Grein family'. The misspelling gave him away from the first and betrayed it all to be invention - the letters, the family... There couldn't, today, be a 'Grein family'.

He took this one misread name and through 'Mary Grein' ventriloquised a fantasia of sexual abuse - incestuous misuse of Lizzie and Emma, a nigh-regimental abuse of maids, Mary's pregnancy fathered by Andrew, aborted by Bowen, more sexual abuse at the hands of Morse and Abby, Mary's passion for Bowen, yet more sexual abuse of Mary's sister-in-law, again pregnant by Andrew Borden (who's surprisingly rampant for a 70-year-old with an inguinal hernia) and a helpful if wildly anachronistic flow of letters between 'Mary Grein', Bridget Sullivan & Sarah Welch - all the domestics - to document the tumult. Sarah Welch had Andrew's child, 'Mary Grein' found time to write out the Bordens' recipes, and in 1892, to oblige Lizzie, she murdered the couple.

We can track the real Mary Green through records, if only to corroborate the spelling of her name. The hoaxer didn't bother. She was his means of getting lots of avid attention because he could confirm Borden incest - and in return he's reporting her to be a double-murderer.

In reality Mary Green seems to have led a blameless, hard-working life. She was illiterate in 1880 and would remain so. And even though it's all about the letters, this hoax - the letters Mary wrote, the letters Mary read, the teasing disclosure of these letters - the fact she couldn't read or write is there on the 1880 Census record used by the hoaxer.

It's such a bad hoax it's funny.
The 'Recipes' were really just taking the piss.
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by SallyG »

So he was just looking for attention? Figures. There have been a couple on here like that over the years. It seriously makes me wonder if it was "Audrey" again! She was a he who had developed a very complex personna, replete with husband and children, and was very convincing.
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by Franz »

Thank you for your post, InterestedReader.

You refer to the poster who even announced a television interview about those letters, right? I have been really seriously waiting for that television program for a moment! LOL!
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by patsy »

Thanks for that update, Interested Reader, I guess we'll never see a letter after all.
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by InterestedReader »

Hello Sally and Patsy.
Hello to Franz just over there in Rome :salut:
(My partner is from Arezzo, a way north of you, so we're in Italy very often.)

I don't know anything about who would make up all this. I was just looking at the thing, the fiction, itself. I've read quite a lot of the Forum, trying to learn about the case and 'Bobo' didn't sound like the A-entity to me, but what do I know. All I could say with certainty is the A-entity was not French!

Franz, I've read so many of your posts - Kudos to you for your tenacity in exploring non-orthodox views of Lizzie's involvement.
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by twinsrwe »

Very nice summary of BOBO’s hoax, Interested. Thank you for providing us with the information on Mary Green.

I agree, the misspelling of Mary’s last name gave BOBO/Tim Boyd away right from the start. I have also seen her last name incorrectly spelled as Grean. I can see why some people have spelled her last name with an ‘ea’ instead of ‘ee’, but spelling it with an ‘ei’, makes me wonder where they see an ‘i’. The 1880 census clearly shows Mary’s last name was spelled Green. (Click on attachment to enlarge.)
Screen shot from US Census - 1880 Mary Green-servant.png
I found it interesting that BOBO claimed he had corresponded with the ‘Grein’ family for 9 yrs, had over 1100 pages of emails, postal mails, etc., and that he had been in phone contact with 6 of Mary’s decedents, for 6 months, both here and in Ireland. Not only did I find it unbelievable that these decedents would correspond with a stranger regarding a relative they believed was raped and murderer, but they were also willing to give him their mailing addresses, e-mail addresses and phone numbers, in order to discuss this matter with him. With that much correspondence, how is it possible that he missed the correct spelling of Mary’s last name? :shaking: Jeeez!

I picked-up early on, that BOBO/Tim Boyd was handing us a bunch of bullpucky, However, out of curiosity, I played along, to see if I could pick up on anything about BOBO as a person, as well as to see just how far he would take his outrageous hoax.

BOBO gave us bits and pieces of information and then expected us to believe that what he says is the absolute truth, and by him doing this, he was patterning himself after Arnold Brown. Tim is a lot like Mr. Brown; he expected us to believe anything and everything he presented to us without proof, just because he says it is so. Arnold Brown was an expert in that field. BOBO was definitely expecting a much more positive response from all of us, than he received.

Furthermore, BOBO/Tim would get his facts mixed up, and apparently would ‘forget’ that he had posted certain information that was in complete discrepancy. A good example of this is when he posted about his father’s death:

On July 04, 2014, he posted, ‘I lost my father in the Korean conflict.’: http://tinyurl.com/zzteyz9

On December 22, 2014, he posted, ‘I am sad to report the passing of my father, this morning, at 1 a.m. He was 84. Tim’: http://tinyurl.com/zb5k8lo

There is no doubt in my mind, that BOBO was an attention seeker, who was not only self-centered, but came off as being very melodramatic, as well. His announcements of leaving the forum were getting to be a bit trite; I found it increasingly more difficult to take these announcements seriously. BOBO joined the forum on February 09, 2014; his last post was submitted on February 12, 2015. From July 26, 2014, until he submitted his last post, he had announced four times that he was leaving the forum:

1st time) When he found out about Harry Widdows’ passing away: http://tinyurl.com/k6v9nyw

2nd time) When he started a thread regarding ‘off topic’ posting, and felt he had opened a can of worms. http://tinyurl.com/p6o7chv

3rd time) For no obvious reason. I assume it was because of a PM I had sent to him, just prior to his posting this announcement. http://tinyurl.com/n9tako7

4th time) When he claimed he was being sued by the ‘Grein’ family for releasing personal information that they said was confidential. http://tinyurl.com/lntsd8w

In my family we would say, ‘BOBO had more farewells than Carter has Little Liver Pills’.

BOBO finally stopped posting, after mbhenty called him out regarding his fake identity; see the thread titled, Travel Channel: http://tinyurl.com/zp7qbum

I find it incredibly sad, when a person feels they need to join the forum under a fault indemnity, and then go to such extremes as to present us with such an outrageous hoax. :sad:
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Last edited by twinsrwe on Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:30 am, edited 3 times in total.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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twinsrwe
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by twinsrwe »

Interested, do you happen to know if Sarah Welsh could read and write?
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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InterestedReader
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by InterestedReader »

Hi Twins!

Sarah Welch is a little more difficult to follow through the vital records, but I'll try and track her through to see. Certainly, on the 1865 Census where we find her with the Bordens, she has no tick in the column for 'Cannot Read or Write'.

A Sarah Welch later turns up running a boarding-house in Fall River - on Spring Steet i think it was - but apart from the right birth-date in Ireland I don't know if she has enough else to recommend her as being the same one... I'll see what turns up.
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twinsrwe
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Re: Is it to much to ask????

Post by twinsrwe »

Hi Interested.

Thank you for your willingness to try and track Sarah. I think it would be interesting to know anything you can find on her.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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