irregular events

This the place to have frank, but cordial, discussions of the Lizzie Borden case

Moderator: Adminlizzieborden

User avatar
Curryong
Posts: 2443
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Rosalind
Location: Cranbourne, Australia

Re: irregular events

Post by Curryong »

The sources I've read all place domestic refrigerators in the early part of the 20th century. Of course, commercial refrigeration was in use long before that. A book I have on the history of domestic appliances says a domestic electric refrigerator was marketed in Chicago in 1913. I've never heard of a paraffin fridge. How interesting!

I think it was the swordfish on the Tuesday night plus the mutton broth plus cream cake (for Abby) that made Andrew and Abby sick. What a combination! The Borden meals were certainly nothing to write home about. They were going to have potato soup and cold mutton for their lunch that Thursday. How delicious!
I suppose meat etc sometimes came from Andrew's farm, especially meat like mutton, and because it wouldn't 'keep' very well, Abby and/or Bridget would cook up large amounts at the one time.

Twins, I don't think the food, drink etc for the household came out of Abby's allowance. The twelve dollars a month would have been for what Andrew would probably have called 'fripperies'. I thought Abby disliked paying accounts at stores, shops etc by cheque and so money was placed in the safe for her to use when she went marketing? I suppose she paid accounts at her usual stores at the end of each month. The eighty dollars that was in the safe when the daylight robbery occurred would have been some of that, I guess.

They had paraffin for those radiators that heated the house and a combination of coal and wood for the boiler and kitchen stove, so the coal merchant had to be paid. When they had a horse there would have been farriers fees and a few oats!

So, when you think about it as housekeeping money, the loss of the 80 dollars affected Abby as well as Andrew.
Last edited by Curryong on Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Curryong
Posts: 2443
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Rosalind
Location: Cranbourne, Australia

Re: irregular events

Post by Curryong »

Later! I haven't got a scanner so can't show it, but I've just seen in one of my books 'Behind the Scenes' by Christina Hardyment, an advertisment from the 1880's which refers to a 'New Duplex Refrigerator,' a Prize Medal winner, no less! It was made by the Wenham Lake Ice Company and is basically an ice chest with two compartments. They also offer to supply the ice, (another expense for the Borden house would be ice, I suppose.)
It has the new American Double Wall Ice Pitcher attachment (with tap) for iced drinks, as an extra! I suppose something like this rather lumbering piece of furniture could have been what Bridget was referring to?
User avatar
irina
Posts: 802
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:56 pm
Real Name: Anna L. Morris

Re: irregular events

Post by irina »

I have no idea. I just saw Bridget used the word in the transcript from the trial. I thought "refrigerator" was a trade name/term. I should research it more. That I referred to a paraffin refrigerator I was actually using a British term since we call paraffin "kerosene". The first time I ever heard of this kind of refrigerator it was called a paraffin refrigerator so I thought they were invented in Britain. I think my first husband's family had one here in the US, possibly into the 1930s. I was wondering if refrigerator was an Irish term or where Bridget picked it up. She had worked in a hotel in Rhode Island I think before the Bordens. My first husband always called a fridge an ice box.
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
User avatar
twinsrwe
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Judy
Location: Wisconsin

Re: irregular events

Post by twinsrwe »

Curryong wrote:... Twins, I don't think the food, drink etc for the household came out of Abby's allowance. The twelve dollars a month would have been for what Andrew would probably have called 'fripperies'. I thought Abby disliked paying accounts at stores, shops etc by cheque and so money was placed in the safe for her to use when she went marketing? I suppose she paid accounts at her usual stores at the end of each month. The eighty dollars that was in the safe when the daylight robbery occurred would have been some of that, I guess. ...
You may be right. I have always thought that the food, other than milk and eggs, were purchased out of Abby's allowance.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
User avatar
twinsrwe
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Judy
Location: Wisconsin

Re: irregular events

Post by twinsrwe »

OK, you are correct, Curryong.

Witness Statements, August 17, 1892, Doherty and Harrington, page 17:

Harrington. Visited Mrs. Jane Gray, Mrs. Borden’s step mother. Her statement: “Things were not as pleasant at the Borden house as they might be. That is the reason I did not call on Mrs. Borden as often as I would have liked to. I told Mrs. Borden I would not change places with her for all her money. What I know about them is all hearsay. Mrs. Borden was a very close mouthed woman. She would bear a great deal, and say nothing. She told me she and the girls were allowed an equal monthly allowance, but they had more out of it than I for I had to furnish the table coverings, toweling, and other small things for the house out of mine.”
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
User avatar
irina
Posts: 802
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:56 pm
Real Name: Anna L. Morris

Re: irregular events

Post by irina »

That's the way I understand it. Food, etc. came from money from Andrew. Abby's allowance also bought what's listed in the witness statement.
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
User avatar
Curryong
Posts: 2443
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Rosalind
Location: Cranbourne, Australia

Re: irregular events

Post by Curryong »

That's what I meant. An occasional new hat, a pair of gloves, a dress, a few hankies. Over the course of a year he wouldn't notice. Well, he might, but you could always blame it on incidental expenses! Seriously though, however much of a control freak he was about his money, Andrew could have given Abby 15 dollars a month against the girls 12, for just the incidentals.
User avatar
snokkums
Posts: 2545
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:09 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Robin
Location: fayetteville nc,but from milwaukee
Contact:

Re: irregular events

Post by snokkums »

:shock:
debbiediablo wrote:
Curryong wrote: Whew, I hope she got a good night's sleep!
'Twas the night before murder, in the A. Borden house
Not a creature was stirring, not even John Morse;
The key often stashed on the mantel with care,
Was in Andrew's possession at the top of the stair;
Our Lizzie was nestled all snug in her bed;
Bloody visions of hatchets danced in their head.

With apologies to Clement Moore and everyone who reads this
:shock:
I kinda like it!! It's different.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
User avatar
twinsrwe
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Judy
Location: Wisconsin

Re: irregular events

Post by twinsrwe »

I found another statement regarding Abby's allowance.

Witness Statements, Page 18:

Sunday 21. Summoning witnesses, Bestcome A. Chase and wife of 199 Second Street. Their Statement. Understood from general talk the girls and Mrs. Borden did not get along very pleasantly. Never heard Mrs. Borden say anything about the family relations. Her allowance was about $200. a year; but much of it was spent on articles for the house. The lace curtains in the parlour she purchased. The girls got the same amount as she, but it was for their own use. A short time ago Mrs. Borden, for the first time, told me of the robbery, which took place about a year ago. She simply mentioned it, and said she would tell me about it some other time.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
User avatar
irina
Posts: 802
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:56 pm
Real Name: Anna L. Morris

Re: irregular events

Post by irina »

I have seen that before and wonder why Abby had recently mentioned it to her friend. I have a feeling all kinds of stress and fear was affecting 92 Second within the weeks or months of the murders. I sure wish we knew more about the day to day happenings.
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
User avatar
Curryong
Posts: 2443
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Rosalind
Location: Cranbourne, Australia

Re: irregular events

Post by Curryong »

Yes, that is so sad, why on earth couldn't she have appealed to the old coot and asked him for double the girls' allowance, or better still, start an account at a good drapery or household provisions place and use some of the safe money on that, leaving her allowance free. There would be no need for the girls to know what she was doing.

How really irritating that Mrs Chase (the Chases would have been the people operating the general store near the Borden house wouldn't they?) didn't sit down for a good natter, then we would know what she thought of the robbery. Both she and Andrew must have known who was responsible, hence the locking/blocking of doors etc.

I bet it was witnessing petty tyrannies like this that made Bridget want to leave. Incidentally, I was reading a book on household management in Victorian times the other day, and it said that the average length of time spent by a 'maid of all-work', (sole servant) in one household was about three years. So Bridget only had a little time to go!
User avatar
twinsrwe
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Judy
Location: Wisconsin

Re: irregular events

Post by twinsrwe »

A couple of questions I have about those two statement are:

Why would Abby have told Jane Gray such a personal thing as her allowance, if she was closed mouthed, and could bear a great deal without saying anything?

How did Bestcome A. Chase and his wife know about the Abby’s allowance, if Abby had never said anything about the family relations?

:scratch:
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
User avatar
Curryong
Posts: 2443
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Rosalind
Location: Cranbourne, Australia

Re: irregular events

Post by Curryong »

I think sometimes we forget that Abby was a local born and bred and therefore had relationships apart from Andrew. Jane Gray was her stepmother, wasn't she? Therefore, I suppose every little hint, every little inference that came out of Abby's mouth about possibly being demeaned by Andrew or the girls could well have been discussed endlessly by the Grays, Fishes and Whiteheads.

It's interesting about the Chases. I've read little bits about them before. If they were old locals Abby could well have known them all her life. They could have been Gray family friends. There seems to have been a bit of a feeling around that Abby's life wasn't the happiest due to several factors. People who'd known her a long time might have picked up from her attitude and a sentence or two from her what was going on at no. 92.
User avatar
irina
Posts: 802
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:56 pm
Real Name: Anna L. Morris

Re: irregular events

Post by irina »

Reading and rereading Bridget's trial testimony, the locked bedroom door is just more mysterious to me. I wonder if Andrew's habit wasn't a longterm thing dating well before the burglary, maybe stemming from other times when Andrew lived with a lot of other people. Bridget testified that when he first came down in the morning he put his key on the mantel and that he retrieved the key when he went upstairs after breakfast with a pitcher of water. If this was a foil for Lizzie who seldom if ever got up early, why not put the key in his pocket for a couple hours? If he knew everyone would be congregated near the back stairs, why lock the door at all? If Lizzie was up and she was the issue she could certainly be watched and caught in the act. That's a lot of effort to lock a bedroom early in the morning, for what reason exactly?

The daytime burglary took place when at least Abby and Andrew were at the farm and not in residence. Maybe Emma, Lizzie and Bridget were out, or not. I have read it both ways. However it was, the circumstances were a whole lot different than all the family in the dining/kitchen area.

We have the idea Andrew always did this, not that he did it sometimes. In other words when Lizzie was gone to Marion, we presume he still had the habit of the key on the mantel. It seems Bridget might have mentioned something different if he had not always put the key on the mantel.

Bridget also testified that her key to the main back door was hung on the wall under a shelf in the kitchen! How's that for security? Is this a sign the imagined threat didn't come from inside? Lizzie had a key to the front door and anyone could have taken/used Bridget's key from the kitchen wall. That Lizzie supposedly gave car tickets to someone (I don't believe it, but), she could easily have had unsavoury accomplices that would gain entrance to the whole house~perhaps even commit an axe murder... Yet the ultra-secure area was Andrew's bedroom which he inconveniently locked even while having breakfast near the back stairs! What does this tell us?
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
User avatar
Curryong
Posts: 2443
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Rosalind
Location: Cranbourne, Australia

Re: irregular events

Post by Curryong »

I think that Andrew probably was a very security conscious man all his adult life. He was determined to be a financial success and grab any opportunities going, as can be seen by his egg enterprises into his sixties, at a time when he could have bought a dozen poultry farms.

Even as a young man he may have kept cash in the house. The safe was apparently a rather old-fashioned piece of equipment that was deceptive in that it probably looked easy to rob but was not. Remember, the police had to get a locksmith in to get it open. So yes, regardless of the daylight robbery, I think Andrew would have locked that portion of the house--bedroom and Mrs Borden's room (with safe) anyway.

I don't think incidentally, that anybody was out on the day of the robbery. I remember reading that Bridget mentioned, with an air of wonderment probably, that 'we were all here and nobody heard anything'. (I'm paraphrasing here.)
User avatar
twinsrwe
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Judy
Location: Wisconsin

Re: irregular events

Post by twinsrwe »

Abby and Andrew were in Swansea during the time of the robbery; Emma, Lizzie and Bridget were at 92 Second Street while the robbery occurred.

Alice Russell testified at the trial as to Lizzie’s remarks about the robbery (Underlining is mine). (Trial: 378). “Well", she says, "they have broken into the house in broad daylight, with Emma and Maggie and me there." And I said ,"I never heard of that before." And she said "Father forbade our telling it."
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
User avatar
Curryong
Posts: 2443
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Rosalind
Location: Cranbourne, Australia

Re: irregular events

Post by Curryong »

I bet Alice was dying to know the details but Lizzie then went on talking about something else. It's a wonder Bridget never said anything about it to anyone. I suppose she was mainly in the kitchen during the day.
User avatar
twinsrwe
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Judy
Location: Wisconsin

Re: irregular events

Post by twinsrwe »

I find it interesting that Lizzie told Alice about the robbery, when Andrew had 'forbid' the family to talk about it. Why did Lizzie find it necessary to tell Alice all about the daylight robbery, when she had been closed mouthed about it up until the night before the murders?

Trial testimony of Alice Russell pages 377-378 she is being asked, by Moody, about the conversation she had with Lizzie the night before the murders:

Q. Anything about trouble with tenants, or anything of that sort?
A. she says, "I don't know, she says, " I feel afraid sometimes that Father has got an enemy. For," she says, " he has so much trouble with his men that come to see him." And she told me that a man had came to see him. She told me of a man that came to see him, and she heard him say -- she didn't see him, but she heard her father say, " I don't care to let my property for such business." And she said the man answered sneeringly, "I shouldn't think you would care what you let your property for." And she said, "Father was mad and

page 378

ordered him out of the house." She told me of seeing a man run around the house one night when she went home. I have forgotten where she had been. She said, "And you know the barn has been broken into twice." And I said, "Oh well, you know that that was somebody after pigeons; there is nothing in there for them to go after but pigeons. " "Well," she says, " they have broken into the house in broad daylight, with Emma and me and Maggie there." I said, "I never heard of that before." And she said, "Father forbade our telling it." So I asked her about it, and she said it was in Mrs. Borden's room, what she called her dressing room. She said her things were ransacked, and they took a watch and chain and money and car tickets, and something else that I can't remember. And there was a nail left in the keyhole; she didn't know why that was left; whether they got in with it or what. I asked her if her father did anything about it, and she said he gave it to the police, but they didn't find out anything; and she said her father expected they would catch the thief by the tickets. She remarked, "Just as if anybody would use those tickets."
Last edited by twinsrwe on Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
User avatar
irina
Posts: 802
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:56 pm
Real Name: Anna L. Morris

Re: irregular events

Post by irina »

It is interesting both Lizzie and Abby suddenly broke silence about the robbery shortly before the murders. Perhaps it was because it was near the one year anniversary of the robbery. We could suppose both women knew a great deal more than they were saying so if more than a one year anniversary was the impetus for speaking, what was it? Was it as some suppose, that Lizzie was the robber, and therefore Abby was in a way telling Mrs. Chase there was an increasing problem with Lizzie? Or in both tellings were Lizzie and Abby trying to say an outside threat, family or other, was rearing its head?

I know somewhere it was said Emma, Lizzie and Bridget were out on the day of the robbery. It would be interesting to dig that up and see who said it. However it was, Lizzie's choice in telling seems to be that they were all there when it happened. Which brings me back to how stupid was Lizzie if she did it? Surely anyone with half a brain can see that claiming to be in a house when it is robbed during the daytime, makes one look potentially guilty?

It could be that Emma and Lizzie were in the front part of the house during the robbery and Bridget was somewhere~~where I wonder. So the next important question is did they hear anything? Any of them? If not, why not? If Lizzie did it what did she do with the money, $80 or so? Nobody noted her suddenly having money to spend. Since Lizzie wasn't very good at covering up stuff, what happened to Abby's watch and chain? If she gave the car tickets to Gd knows who that used them, why didn't she give toe watch to some street urchin? Of course it's possible that knowing the car tickets could be traced, she did give them to some less than reputable person so others would look guilty. Why, if Andrew kept it all quiet, would someone on the street say "Lizzie" gave them the tickets (supposedly). Why not mention Emma or Bridget? I don't believe that part anyway. There were fantastic rumors going around after the murders, some extremely far out.
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
User avatar
twinsrwe
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Judy
Location: Wisconsin

Re: irregular events

Post by twinsrwe »

irina wrote:... I know somewhere it was said Emma, Lizzie and Bridget were out on the day of the robbery. It would be interesting to dig that up and see who said it. ...
Abby and Andrew were in Swansea, but Emma, Lizzie and Bridget were all at home during the time of the daylight robbery. Lizzie told Alice Russell about the robbery the night before the murders. It was this robbery that Andrew forbid the family to talk about. (See my previous post).
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
User avatar
Curryong
Posts: 2443
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Rosalind
Location: Cranbourne, Australia

Re: irregular events

Post by Curryong »

Lizzie's dressmaker gave testimony during the trial that while she was staying there, making the famous paint-splattered dress among other things, a detective called to see Lizzie and was in a room with her for a long time. Wonder whether that had anything to do with the horse car ticket business or whether a store in town had made a complaint.

Emma and Lizzie had stopped having holidays/day trips with their parents at the Swansea farm after the arguments over the Whitehead half-house, that Andrew had bought for Abby's half-sister.
User avatar
Franz
Posts: 1626
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:44 am
Real Name: Li Guangli
Location: Rome, Italy
Contact:

Re: irregular events

Post by Franz »

Curryong wrote:...I'm afraid I'm with irina on the 'Lizzie buying Prussic Acid' scenario. Her identification by the drug store clerk Eli Bence was never tested in court. Yes, Bence seemed sure, but witness statements of this kind are notoriously iffy. IF she did try to get her hands on some Prussic acid it could well have been for suicide in case things went against her.
Many think Lizzie was guilty and among them a number of person think she premeditated the murder and bought her hatchet somewhere, even in another town, anyway very FAR AWAY from her home.

Well, and then? On August 3rd Lizzie (suddenly) went into a drug store that was in such a VICINITY of the Borden house to purchase Prussic acid to kill her parents? And then, after she failed to get the poison, she returned to her hatchet the next morning?

All of this seems a nonsens to me.

Therefore, I agree wtih Curryong, that is, IF Lizzie really did what Eli Bence testified, she must have done it for another purpose. When the murder occured the next day, Lizzie, innocent or guilty, denied her going to the drug store.
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
Post Reply