irregular events

This the place to have frank, but cordial, discussions of the Lizzie Borden case

Moderator: Adminlizzieborden

leitskev
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:56 pm
Real Name: kevin lenihan

irregular events

Post by leitskev »

There is a common belief that there are no coincidences. Of course, there are. But it is useful to look for meaning in events that were a change in pattern, a change in the norm. I'll take a quick look at a few.

Emma being away:

Coincidence? Her being away may imply knowledge on her part, but I don't think we can conclude that. However, it might add weight to the suspicion on Lizzie(or I suppose Bridget). A stranger would be less likely to know Emma was away and factor it in. But for someone in the house, her being away presented and opportunity.

Morse's arrival:

Andrew had sent for Morse in order to have him run some kind of errand, supposedly involving the Borden farms. Morse gave this note to the prosecutor, but it is lost from history. We'll never know what was discussed by Morse and Andrew that night. It could be completely unconnected to the murders that followed. But out of the norm events are often connected and a good place to investigate. There is a good chance this arrival had something to do with the deaths. All we can do is speculate. It's been discussed that maybe the will was a factor and Lizzie overheard the discussion. Of course, Lizzie would probably have had to been planning this longer than that. The hatchet was newly bought it seems, and her strange conversation with Alice took place before she came home and might have overheard the conversation between Morse and Andrew. Though I'm not sure how much stock I put in anything Alice testified to, as her eyewitness accounts were much influenced by subsequent events and influences.

In any case, we have Morse's arrival at Andrew's request, a discussion Lizzie may have heard, and then there is Morse's strange behavior the morning of the murders(better discussed elsewhere). I don't conclude anything out of all this, but odds are there is some connection.

the suspicion of poisoning the day before:

This could be a telling clue, and not many here will agree with me on this.

You have to piece together a lot of things with this one. For one thing, no poison was found in the bodies, though they did not know this until I believe a month later when the results came back. And there is the pharmacy that claims Lizzie tried to purchase poison there.

If we accept the standard theory, we would have to accept these unlikely coincidences: Lizzie was trying to purchase poison to kill her parents; no poison was found in the bodies; no known source where she purchased poison was found; and...and this is the big one...coincidentally, Abby showed up at Dr Bowen's complaining someone was trying to poison them the day before. Now that's weird. Lizzie is suspected of trying to purchase poison, no poison was used, and Abby suspected poisoning the day before.

Or so says the good doctor.

Also according to the doctor, he told Abby that what really had made them sick was food poisoning. I am curious when it is that Dr. Bowen testified about this encounter with Abby? When was the poison stuff first circulated? When did he first explain that he had told Abby it was mere food poisoning from eating old meat? Are there ANY other witnesses that Abby was concerned with their being poisoned? Are there any other witnesses to what Bowen's visit the day before to supposedly check on Andrew might have entailed? I've read the transcripts, but I forget...did Bridget testify about poisoning suspicion? Did Lizzie express any similar worry with Alice? I think there was testimony about sickness in the house.

I've said in the past the drug store testimony can pretty much be discounted. The poison story was likely circulating around town(from Bowen) within a day or two. People always come out of the woodwork in those circumstances. Always. Look at any other case. I'm not saying the pharmacists were lying, but they saw in their memories what they wanted to see and convinced themselves. It's unreliable enough that we should just plain ignore it. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. But the way these things work, even if Lizzie did not ever go in that store, once the poison rumor circulated there was a good chance someone would emerge saying they saw her try to purchase it.

But the pharmacy account is still useful. It shows that someone began that poison story.

So we have two otherwise unconnected facts: the Bordens were killed, and the day before Abby supposedly thought someone was trying to poison them. And falsely thought, as it turns out. Are those things really unconnected? Unlikely. Which leads me to lean toward two possibilities. Either someone was trying to poison them, and the evidence just never emerged...or Bowen made this up for his own reasons.

I mean if no one was trying to poison the Bordens, it's very unusual that Abby complained of this the day before they murders.

If there were threats on the Bordens, maybe Abby was just getting a little paranoid. But there is no real evidence of threats, certainly not of Abby believing there were threats. If no one was trying to poison the Bordens, and Abby had no reason to suspect anyone was trying to kill them, it's beyond unlikely that she happens to show up with this complaint the day before being killed.

So I really wonder if Dr Bowen had his own reason for spreading this story about the poison. I am not implying he was guilty, I am not implying Lizzie was not guilty, I am just saying this is very, very odd, and could be a clue. What is more probable, that Abby just happened to complain about being poisoned the day before, despite the fact that she was not being poisoned, or that Bowen concocted this story for his own reasons? Lack of evidence for a motive for Bowen does not mean there was not one. So it's a matter of applying probability. I find it highly improbable that Abby would show up with this complaint the day before. Which only leaves Bowen as making this up.

I am probably forgetting other evidence, been a while since I read.
User avatar
Curryong
Posts: 2443
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Rosalind
Location: Cranbourne, Australia

Re: irregular events

Post by Curryong »

I think we forget today with all our modern conveniences how quickly food, especially dairy produce, milk etc. went 'off' in hot weather in previous centuries.

This was made worse in the 19th century by some very sloppy and unethical methods of food production, chalk, and worse, put in commercially made bread for example. People then knew that some foods were often adulterated and were wary of it. In the US 'summer sickness' often occurred in the warmer months. There was of course no proper refrigeration in private homes until the 20th century.

I think what Abby was frightened of was specifically baker's produce, bread, cream cakes. Dr Bowen gave a witness statement about her concerns, and at the Inquest, said this,

Page 115 Inquest evidence.

Dr Bowen: ...The day before, Wednesday morning, about eight or before eight, Mrs Borden came to the door and said she was frightened, said that she was afraid she was poisoned. I told her to come in. She sat down and said the night before, about nine o clock, she and her husband commenced to vomit and vomited for two or three hours until twelve, I understood.

Q. What morning was this?

A. Wednesday morning. I asked her what she had eaten for supper and she told me. She said she had eaten some baker's white bread and she had heard of bakers' cream cakes being poisonous and was afraid there was something poisonous in the bread that made her vomit. She said that she only ate cake and baker's white bread.'

After she appeared to be gagging while speaking to Bowen, he sent her back home with some castor oil. He later paid a visit to No 92 on that Wednesday morning. Andrew and Abby were both very seedy. Lizzie said later that she had been sick also on that Tuesday night.

I think myself that the fish Abby and Andrew consumed on the Tuesday night was probably off, not to mention the very elderly re-appearing mutton broth. Mix that with some creamy cake and it's no wonder both were ill! They didn't need any poison from Lizzie! They were doing a good job themselves!

However, it's quite clear from that little bit of conversation with Bowen, that it wasn't arsenic or Prussic acid Abby was worried about, but nasty practices by the baker in an age of non-refrigeration.
User avatar
irina
Posts: 802
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:56 pm
Real Name: Anna L. Morris

Re: irregular events

Post by irina »

I'm glad you posted that, Curryong. I never picked up on why Abby feared baked goods. I had forgotten about adulteration. They put in sawdust or anything else. Continuing with that testimony Dr. Bowen seemed to think it was the cream cake as do I. I suspect a custard filling.

I have wondered about arsenic because modern doctors can't catch that half the time, but Bridget's illness came more than a day later and I am firmly convinced she had migraine. I take into account various testimonies of Bridget plus my own experience with migraine/facial neuralgia, which Bridget seems to have had.

I don't really believe in coincidences and refer to them as synergisms. However there is a difference between a coincidence in my opinion, and something happening because the opportunity is there. We can't say the Tsarnaev brothers, bombings in Boston were some sort of coincidence because Boston had a marathon. They planned to do it because there was a marathon.

Synergisms are out of the ordinary. Things that happened at the Borden household weren't necessarily that far out of ordinary. Even Uncle John's arrival is not extremely unusual as he came once in a while. So I see more the possibility of cause and effect.

Synergism would come in if the killer was an intruder. He would be able to avoid Bridget and Lizzie, kill Abby, hide out, sneak downstairs, avoid Lizzie and kill Andrew, and get away.

We don't know enough about the Borden household or the killer, if it wasn't Lizzie, to know if things were coincidental or not. Emma's being away may have been known. Papers in those days frequently published travels and visits of people in the upper classes. Andrew may have mentioned it in a public place. If Lizzie had a plan then things just happened to support that plan that morning but there wasn't necessarily anything out of the ordinary. Phebe Bowen said Bridget washed windows about once a week, usually Thursdays. Andrew walked to town in the mornings. The out of ordinary thing was that Abby cleaned the upstairs bedroom on that day.
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
BOBO
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:54 pm
Real Name: Tim Boyd

Re: irregular events

Post by BOBO »

Someone with more knowledge help out here. By placing the stomachs in alcohol, would that have removed any trace of prussic acid? Hope this isn't a double post.
Tell the truth, then you don't have to remember anything.... Mark Twain
User avatar
debbiediablo
Posts: 1467
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:42 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Deborah
Location: Upper Midwest

Re: irregular events

Post by debbiediablo »

Lizzie Burns Her Dress

Was this the usual means of doing away with worn or stained clothing?


Dr. Bowen Burns Something in the Stove

What would require burning on the afternoon of a double murder? Then again, nerves take over and people think illogically in the midst of such trauma.


Lizzie Speaks of Presciently of Disaster in the Family

Was this an anomaly or was Lizzie a routine doomsayer?


Lizzie Suggests That Bridget Go Fabric Shopping


My understanding is that this was first for Lizzie, that Emma was the one who made these types of suggestions to Bridget.


Uncle John Shows Up Without Luggage


I think he was given to making unannounced visits but did he always show up with no luggage, no change of clothing, nothing but the clothes on his back?
DebbieDiablo

*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'*
Even Paranoids Have Enemies


"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
leitskev
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:56 pm
Real Name: kevin lenihan

Re: irregular events

Post by leitskev »

So the only testimony regarding Abby going to Dr. Bowen's believing she had been possibly poisoned...whether maliciously of by food...was from Dr. Bowen?

I prefer not to use the term coincidence myself. That's why I did not use it in the thread title. I have no objection to using synergism. The point is that any event that happens which is out of the norm and in proximity to the murder should be looked at. The more out of the regular pattern this event is the more connected it might be. That connection does not have to be causal to be relevant. For example, Emma's leaving for vacation might not be causal, but it might add weight to the killer being someone from the house who didn't want any witnesses. An outside killer not only might be less aware of her travels, but less concerned about them.

It could be coincidental that Abby complained about food poisoning the day before. And perhaps Dr. Bowen's relating of that event grew into another dimension as the story spread about someone trying to poison the Bordens, and as suspicion fell on Lizzie for other reasons, the Pharmacist suddenly convinced himself that he had seen someone like Lizzie try to buy something could be used as poison.

But it still remains an unusual occurrence of evens...one day Abby is reported to complain of poison, the next they are killed. If Bowen is the only source of that complaint, it opens the door to other explanations...such as the possibility that Abby's visit had to do with something else entirely...and that Bowen's subsequent visit to Andrew, and Andrew's hostility, had to do with something else entirely.

And there are, of course, other things in Bowen's behavior. He is the first man on scene after Lizzie reports the murder. That's not unusual, but with the killer on the loose, he leaves Lizzie to go telegraph Emma. He does not go to ME's office or the police. And he does not return right away, but rather runs an errand. There is a newspaper report he made a housecall to a hame where Morse happened to be just leaving, though that report may not be reliable. In any case, Bowen seems to have done more than just send the telegram, an none of that includes going to the Medical Examiner's office or the police. Odd.

Then he returns to the house. When Abby is found he strangely reports her as having died from "fright". And he burns a note in the stove. And he seems to have had time alone with Lizzie in her room. He may have been treating her for anxiety, and he was the family doctor, but seen in light of other strange behavior, some of this becomes at least a little suspicious.
User avatar
debbiediablo
Posts: 1467
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:42 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Deborah
Location: Upper Midwest

Re: irregular events

Post by debbiediablo »

I'm of the opinion, not shared by many others, that Bowen knew exactly what motivated the murders and felt protective of Lizzie. I have minimal peripheral evidence to support my thinking...but my intuition has me convinced.
DebbieDiablo

*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'*
Even Paranoids Have Enemies


"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
User avatar
Franz
Posts: 1626
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:44 am
Real Name: Li Guangli
Location: Rome, Italy
Contact:

Re: irregular events

Post by Franz »

More than Emma's absence, the police picnic that took place in that murder Thursday seems to me more probably linked with the murder plan.
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
leitskev
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:56 pm
Real Name: kevin lenihan

Re: irregular events

Post by leitskev »

Is there any evidence besides Bowen's testimony as to what Abby's visit was about the day before? I know we do have testimony of illness in the house, so that counts. But is there any evidence from any other source what the visit was about?

We have a neighbor who seems to pay close attention to Lizzie's comings and goings in the house. Maybe he's just observant. We have Bowen accompanying Lizzie to church when the Bordens were away...a church he was not a member of. This despite his testimony that his relationship to the Bordens was not social, but as the family doctor...sounding like he wanted to distance himself.

And as I said, his behavior after first visiting the crime scene is inexplicable. Leaving Lizzie behind with a killer on the loose to send a telegram...and not returning immediately to the house, and then not acting very much like a doctor when Abby was found...strange stuff.

And before anyone says we can't damage people's reputations without evidence...these people have been dead a century. They won't mind. And until a case is solved, everyone is a suspect.

And also a word on Occam's razor in case that comes up: let's say some crazy person entered your neighbor's house and killed your neighbor. The only person home was her son, and he claims he was taking a nap. So there are no witnesses. Since there is no evidence otherwise, should we use William of Occam and his razor to conclude the son must have done it? I mean it is the simplest of explanations lacking any other evidence. Occam is useful, but we have to be careful how. If the murder weapon is found under the son's bed and he has blood on his hands, then it becomes increasingly hard to construct a theory in which he is innocent. But his being the only one in the house would not be enough. Even his acting oddly or changing the story under pressure is not enough...he could be confused or he could be covering up something else entirely, such is his stash of girly mags in the closet. We just have to be careful.
User avatar
irina
Posts: 802
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:56 pm
Real Name: Anna L. Morris

Re: irregular events

Post by irina »

I got careless posting and lost my reply. PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: When posting, if someone else' post arrives while you are writing yours, the system will hold up yours and post theirs. You will get a notice of same and a question asking if you want to proceed. I'm on a kind of small screen and I don't always see the message so I hit submit. THAT cancels out what you have written & it's lost forever.

OK...I understand what you are saying, leitskev. I missed the point the first time around and was thinking about alternate universe kind of stuff.

Good point Franz.

I have an odd thought I have been thinking about for quite a while. Since I believe Lizzie is innocent I am ashamed for thinking of this and will need to pass it off to folks with properly twisted minds like Curryong and Debbie. :wink:

We tend to think Lizzie had tender feelings for Dr. Bowen. Do you suppose she could have set up the tragedy and killed Abby to make herself the center of or heroine of a drama from which Bowen would rescue her and whereby she would get a lot of his attention? One of the first things he said was to ask her where she was when Andrew was killed. She said in the barn. Bowen told her she was lucky, had she been in the house she would have been killed too. What WAS in the paper he burned? The probably didn't have waste baskets and the stove was it so I don't think too much about that, but it could have been something that tied him to Lizzie in an inappropriate way for example.

Now I'm going to forget I wrote this and let others sort it out.
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
User avatar
Franz
Posts: 1626
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:44 am
Real Name: Li Guangli
Location: Rome, Italy
Contact:

Re: irregular events

Post by Franz »

irina wrote:... One of the first things he (Dr. Bowen) said was to ask her where she was when Andrew was killed. She said in the barn. Bowen told her she was lucky, had she been in the house she would have been killed too...


Irina, could you give us the source? Once I said the same thing in the forum because I am very positive to have read it somewhere. Twinsrwe and others asked me its source but I have currently no time enough to re-read all my material. Thanks!
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
User avatar
irina
Posts: 802
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:56 pm
Real Name: Anna L. Morris

Re: irregular events

Post by irina »

Franz: I did an extensive search using several search terms. I remember a reported conversation between Bowen and Lizzie that went as I previously wrote. What I found in the trial testimony is this:

During questioning about whether both victims were killed with the same weapon this is part of an answer by Dr. Bowen:

"...and I thought it was fortunate for Lizzie that she was out of the way, or else she would have been killed herself."

I am sure of what I wrote earlier. I looked up Lizzie's jailhouse interview and it isn't in there. Will keep my eyes open. I thought it was part of witness statements. It may be but written with different words. I used search terms, "where were you", "barn", "killed" and "Bowen".
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
User avatar
twinsrwe
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Judy
Location: Wisconsin

Re: irregular events

Post by twinsrwe »

OFF TOPIC:
irina wrote:I got careless posting and lost my reply. PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: When posting, if someone else' post arrives while you are writing yours, the system will hold up yours and post theirs. You will get a notice of same and a question asking if you want to proceed. I'm on a kind of small screen and I don't always see the message so I hit submit. THAT cancels out what you have written & it's lost forever...
I avoid this problem by:
1. Clicking on the ‘quote’ icon of the person I want to reply to or add something to what someone else has posted, then
2. Highlight the text and choose the option of ‘cut’, then
3. I go into a new message page of my e-mail program, and ‘paste’ it there.
4. I can then take my time typing up a long reply, as well as do some research if I want to, once completed,
5. I highlight the text and choose the ‘cut’ option (I can choose to include the members quote or not), then
6. Paste it into the reply section of the thread you are responding to, and then submit.

I use the new message option of my e-mail program whether I'm replying to a forum member by using the quote option, or simply typing up a long response to something I want to comment on in a given thread. I know it sounds like a complicated way of replying to a thread, but I DON'T lose the information I just spent a lot of time typing up. Try it, you will find it is not as bad as it sounds.

I hope this helps.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
User avatar
twinsrwe
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Judy
Location: Wisconsin

Re: irregular events

Post by twinsrwe »

Franz wrote:
irina wrote:... One of the first things he (Dr. Bowen) said was to ask her where she was when Andrew was killed. She said in the barn. Bowen told her she was lucky, had she been in the house she would have been killed too...


Irina, could you give us the source? Once I said the same thing in the forum because I am very positive to have read it somewhere. Twinsrwe and others asked me its source but I have currently no time enough to re-read all my material. Thanks!
Excuse me, Franz, I didn't ask you for a source to this statement.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
BOBO
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:54 pm
Real Name: Tim Boyd

Re: irregular events

Post by BOBO »

BOBO wrote:Someone with more knowledge help out here. By placing the stomachs in alcohol, would that have removed any trace of prussic acid? Hope this isn't a double post.
I can see I'm urinating up a gum stump. I have ask this several times.... WTH... I'll ask Hank.
Tell the truth, then you don't have to remember anything.... Mark Twain
User avatar
irina
Posts: 802
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:56 pm
Real Name: Anna L. Morris

Re: irregular events

Post by irina »

page 309 of the trial, from the source I used. Sorry I didn't include that. I have something going on around here.

BOBO, in my opinion the alcohol would degrade prussic acid and it would not have been detectable. Prussic acid is very soluble in alcohol. Hydrogen cyanide is very volatile and easily degraded under many circumstances. Alcohol could have done a number of things to the analysis o stomach contents in my opinion.
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
User avatar
irina
Posts: 802
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:56 pm
Real Name: Anna L. Morris

Re: irregular events

Post by irina »

I should also have clarified, this is the trial transcript at www.lizzieandrewborden.com, Volume I, direct examination of Dr. Bowen. Some sources have different page numbers.

I remember a longer conversation between Bowen and Lizzie. I think I just don't remember the words exactly. I added other search terms. It may well be a related conversation that someone overheard.I'll look for it another day.

I am very distracted. I'm working on a horrible story that just took a turn for the worst. Back later.
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
User avatar
Curryong
Posts: 2443
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Rosalind
Location: Cranbourne, Australia

Re: irregular events

Post by Curryong »

I don't think any of us besides Possum, who is AWOL at the moment, have enough medical knowledge to answer your question, BOBO. I have a feeling that it wouldn't, but that's all it is, a feeling from a medically unqualified person. It's just my observation, but considering there was so much poisoning in the 19th century, (women getting rid of their spouses by arsenic etc)., then surely, if there was any chance of evidence of toxic mixtures being removed by placing body parts in alcohol for examination, doctors wouldn't have done it.

I too remember reading about Dr Bowen and Lizzie and the barn, and not too long ago. It may possibly be in the Inquest testimony as I've been giving that a bit of a going over lately. I have a memory that it wasn't Lizzie who said it but someone remembering the doctor saying it.
User avatar
debbiediablo
Posts: 1467
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:42 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Deborah
Location: Upper Midwest

Re: irregular events

Post by debbiediablo »

twinsrwe wrote:OFF TOPIC:
irina wrote:I got careless posting and lost my reply. PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: When posting, if someone else' post arrives while you are writing yours, the system will hold up yours and post theirs. You will get a notice of same and a question asking if you want to proceed. I'm on a kind of small screen and I don't always see the message so I hit submit. THAT cancels out what you have written & it's lost forever...
I avoid this problem by:
1. Clicking on the ‘quote’ icon of the person I want to reply to or add something to what someone else has posted, then
2. Highlight the text and choose the option of ‘cut’, then
3. I go into a new message page of my e-mail program, and ‘paste’ it there.
4. I can then take my time typing up a long reply, as well as do some research if I want to, once completed,
5. I highlight the text and choose the ‘cut’ option (I can choose to include the members quote or not), then
6. Paste it into the reply section of the thread you are responding to, and then submit.

I use the new message option of my e-mail program whether I'm replying to a forum member by using the quote option, or simply typing up a long response to something I want to comment on in a given thread. I know it sounds like a complicated way of replying to a thread, but I DON'T lose the information I just spent a lot of time typing up. Try it, you will find it is not as bad as it sounds.

I hope this helps.
I find that my message will still be there if I hit the back arrow (once or more) at the top left of the screen...but this is a Mac and they function a bit differently from other OSes. However, it's worth a try...haven't permanently lost one since I started doing this.
DebbieDiablo

*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'*
Even Paranoids Have Enemies


"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
User avatar
twinsrwe
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Judy
Location: Wisconsin

Re: irregular events

Post by twinsrwe »

OFF TOPIC:

Good, Debbie. I'm glad to hear that you have found a way to get around that problem. (Let me know if you have questions).
Last edited by twinsrwe on Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
BOBO
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:54 pm
Real Name: Tim Boyd

Re: irregular events

Post by BOBO »

DING-DANG it Possum... WHERE you at??
Tell the truth, then you don't have to remember anything.... Mark Twain
User avatar
Curryong
Posts: 2443
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Rosalind
Location: Cranbourne, Australia

Re: irregular events

Post by Curryong »

Phoebe Bowen must have known about Abby's sickness on the Tuesday/Wednesday as she specifically asked her about it when she saw her afterwards and was told by Abby that both she and Andrew were feeling somewhat better. That was the occasion when Abby told Phoebe that Lizzie had visited Alice Russell (on the Wednesday night.)

Don't discount Lizzie's odd conversation with Alice that Wednesday night which may well have been an attempt to set the scene for murder. Unlike Abby Lizzie didn't talk about adulterated baker's bread/cakes but muttered about poison and 'father's enemies' and the house being burned down around the family's ears. To me that's a far more significant conversation than Abby babbling about her worries of adulterated bread.

Officer Allen was the first policeman on the scene. He received the order to go to No 92 at 11:15 am that morning. He ran there and took around eight minutes to get there. He quickly picked up passerby Charles Sawyer, and proceeded to the side door of No 92.

He testified that he saw Dr Bowen arriving up Second St as he (Allen) was running up. Dr Bowen's first remark to him at the side door was 'I need a policeman'. Allen identified himself as such (peculiar as he must have been wearing a uniform) and Dr Bowen then said 'Fine.Come in'. Allen then entered the house leaving Sawyer to guard the side door.

Bowen flapping about going and sending telegrams etc came later on, when there were several police in the house. Some of the behaviour of the police, medical people etc is far removed from what would happen at a murder scene today, but that's just the point. It was another age.

I think we might be forgetting here that Bowen was human and unused to murder. He momentarily, because of the darkness in the guest room, thought that Abby had fainted.

When he found that she, a neighbour, friend and one of his wife's closest friends, was brutally murdered he was most upset, to the extent that Mrs Churchill mentioned that he was tearful when he came downstairs. This was a charge he angrily denied in court later, but it was probably true. An inoffensive little women whom he'd known for years had been butchered and he was faced with examining her wounds.
User avatar
debbiediablo
Posts: 1467
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:42 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Deborah
Location: Upper Midwest

Re: irregular events

Post by debbiediablo »

There's really no telling how anyone will respond to tragedy. I could address this from my own life which has had more than the usual share but instead will tell about a family whose pre-school daughter was killed in an accident inadvertently caused by an older brother. My husband and I went to grade school and high school with the parents, and our two older kids were close to the age of their two older kids. The mom was a nurse in the local medical clinic. When the ambulance call came in the doctor she worked for ran out of the clinic, leaving everyone and everything sitting, jumped in his 1970s muscle car (he always drove one and still does...even in his late 60s) and beat the ambulance to the scene. When the EMTs arrived he was holding her body and weeping with her parents. He had always been a good doctor, but on that day, in my opinion, he became a great one.

There's no telling how anyone will respond to great personal tragedy.
DebbieDiablo

*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'*
Even Paranoids Have Enemies


"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
User avatar
Curryong
Posts: 2443
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Rosalind
Location: Cranbourne, Australia

Re: irregular events

Post by Curryong »

Curryong wrote:Phoebe Bowen must have known about Abby's sickness on the Tuesday/Wednesday as she specifically asked her about it when she saw her afterwards and was told by Abby that both she and Andrew were feeling somewhat better. That was the occasion when Abby told Phoebe that Lizzie had visited Alice Russell (on the Wednesday night.)

Don't discount Lizzie's odd conversation with Alice that Wednesday night which may well have been an attempt to set the scene for murder. Unlike Abby Lizzie didn't talk about adulterated baker's bread/cakes but muttered about poison and 'father's enemies' and the house being burned down around the family's ears. To me that's a far more significant conversation than Abby babbling about her worries of adulterated bread.

Officer Allen was the first policeman on the scene. He received the order to go to No 92 at 11:15 am that morning. He ran there and took around eight minutes to get there. He quickly picked up passerby Charles Sawyer, and proceeded to the side door of No 92.

He testified that he saw Dr Bowen arriving up Second St as he (Allen) was running up. Dr Bowen's first remark to him at the side door was 'I need a policeman'. Allen identified himself as such (peculiar as he must have been wearing a uniform) and Dr Bowen then said 'Fine.Come in'. Allen then entered the house leaving Sawyer to guard the side door.

Bowen flapping about going and sending telegrams etc came later on, when there were several police in the house. Some of the behaviour of the police, medical people etc is far removed from what would happen at a murder scene today, but that's just the point. It was another age.

I think we might be forgetting here that Bowen was human and unused to murder. He momentarily, because of the darkness in the guest room, thought that Abby had fainted.

When he found that she, a neighbour, friend and one of his wife's closest friends, was brutally murdered he was most upset, to the extent that Mrs Churchill mentioned that he was tearful when he came downstairs. This was a charge he angrily denied in court later, but it was probably true. An inoffensive little woman whom he'd known for years had been butchered and he was faced with examining her wounds.
User avatar
Curryong
Posts: 2443
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Rosalind
Location: Cranbourne, Australia

Re: irregular events

Post by Curryong »

Oh gosh I don't know how that double post appeared! My apologies!
I agree, debbie. Doctors are human like the rest of us and when there is a personal relationship built up over years, they get upset like the rest of us, however much they try to maintain professional calm. Our family doctor at home mixed with my parents socially and attended my mother's funeral. He'd brought her into the world nearly 45 years before.

I do think that some of Dr Bowen's behaviour was peculiar by our standards, such as bringing non-medical acquaintances in to No 92 to view the bodies, but then, I'm not a patient of his, or living in the 1890's!
User avatar
Franz
Posts: 1626
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:44 am
Real Name: Li Guangli
Location: Rome, Italy
Contact:

Re: irregular events

Post by Franz »

twinsrwe wrote:
Franz wrote:
irina wrote:... One of the first things he (Dr. Bowen) said was to ask her where she was when Andrew was killed. She said in the barn. Bowen told her she was lucky, had she been in the house she would have been killed too...


Irina, could you give us the source? Once I said the same thing in the forum because I am very positive to have read it somewhere. Twinsrwe and others asked me its source but I have currently no time enough to re-read all my material. Thanks!
Excuse me, Franz, I didn't ask you for a source to this statement.
Excuse me, Twinsrwe, so my memry betrayed me.
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
User avatar
debbiediablo
Posts: 1467
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:42 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Deborah
Location: Upper Midwest

Re: irregular events

Post by debbiediablo »

Curryong wrote:Oh gosh I don't know how that double post appeared! My apologies!
I agree, debbie. Doctors are human like the rest of us and when there is a personal relationship built up over years, they get upset like the rest of us, however much they try to maintain professional calm. Our family doctor at home mixed with my parents socially and attended my mother's funeral. He'd brought her into the world nearly 45 years before.

I do think that some of Dr Bowen's behaviour was peculiar by our standards, such as bringing non-medical acquaintances in to No 92 to view the bodies, but then, I'm not a patient of his, or living in the 1890's!
I Googled "crimes in 1892" and Lizzie's major competition was the most of the Dalton Gang getting ambushed and shot dead during a bank robbery in Coffeyville, Kansas. The dead guys were propped up, displayed for the public, photographed with and without curiosity seekers, and the photos were sold as postcards! There's a huge (by my standards which would be I'd want none of them!!) demand for Victorian death photos...including young children, artfully dressed and made up, sitting side by side on chairs or sofas, dead from some childhood illness. So I do think death in Victorian times was accepted as a part of life, even violent death which wasn't that uncommon. Wakes and funerals were held at home. (My step-mother who is ten years older than me saw her father buried out of their home in the early 1960s.) I, too, think Bowen's behavior was peculiar but more because something doesn't ring quite right about his willingness to leave Lizzie in the house while going to telegraph Emma...with the cleaned up hatchet in his medical bag. :smiliecolors:
DebbieDiablo

*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'*
Even Paranoids Have Enemies


"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
User avatar
Curryong
Posts: 2443
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Rosalind
Location: Cranbourne, Australia

Re: irregular events

Post by Curryong »

I got a book from the library about ten years ago that showed dead and dying outlaws, including the Daltons, propped up to be pho graphed for posterity. We had them too. Mad Dog Morgan (How about that for a name) was shot in Victoria, and snapped gun in hand, after he expired of a gunshot wound in the neck. Luckily he had a huge hairy beard that covered the blood. A more famous one, Ben Hall, wasn't photographed, however; mainly because he was shot by the police more than thirty times after he died in a paddock , so he would have resembled a Swiss cheese!
User avatar
twinsrwe
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Judy
Location: Wisconsin

Re: irregular events

Post by twinsrwe »

Franz wrote:
twinsrwe wrote: ... Excuse me, Franz, I didn't ask you for a source to this statement.
Excuse me, Twinsrwe, so my memry betrayed me.
No problem, Franz, this happens to all of us. :grin:
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
leitskev
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:56 pm
Real Name: kevin lenihan

Re: irregular events

Post by leitskev »

Debbie, glad you mentioned what I was avoiding. I've thought since last year that the hatchet could have went out in the medical bag. That hatchet got out of the house somehow. At the time, I did not know about Crowe's barn. Not sure what to make of that. It seems to me that a perfectly plausible and sensible way for Lizzie to get rid of the hatchet would be to toss it on the barn. The only thing that makes me hesitate is that the authorities were so quick to dismiss it at the time. That could be because the prosecution had invested so much in their hatchet, and I believe the trial was underway when the Crowe hatchet was found. I guess we'll never know and that's too bad, because the Crowe hatchet is very interesting.

Might it have happened this way? Lizzie had something going on with Dr. Bowen. His profession as doctor would have made it easy for them to meet. Abby visited him the day before regarding her suspicions. Bowen visited Andrew to defend himself but was dismissed. Maybe even Morse was brought in to discuss the very matter(no idea why, just spit balling). Maybe that's why Lizzie was being dropped from the will. Bowen was the one Lizzie sent for after the killing. If Bowen did indeed shed tears, he might have had more reason than the death of a patient. He was sent out to telegraph Emma...and to get rid of the hatchet. That's why he took a while getting back to the house. He burned a note from Lizzie in the stove. He concocted the poison story to explain Abby's visit, and maybe initially as a way to point the blame away from Lizzie, but the story took on different meaning in the public mind one suspicion fell on her for other reasons. Maybe initially he kept it simple and said Abby had visited suspecting someone was poisoning their milk. Much later, after Lizzie had been charged, the poison stuff was amended to look less suspicious, and he explained that he told Abby it was mere food poisoning.

Did Bowen ever give any statements saying he suspected Lizzie? Or implicating her in any way? He treated her that day and spent time alone with her in her room. He didn't find anything suspicious in her behavior? Everyone else seems to have started suspecting her that afternoon.

Like I said, just spit balling.
User avatar
Curryong
Posts: 2443
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Rosalind
Location: Cranbourne, Australia

Re: irregular events

Post by Curryong »

John Morse didn't suspect Lizzie as far as is known nor did Bridget. Mrs Churchill never personally said anything against Lizzie. Several of Lizzie's friends continued to support her during the trial. So to say that she was suspected by 'everyone' isn't exactly correct.

Dr Bowen was, as far as is known, happily married. He may have been a bit of a smoothie with his lady patients but it's a long jump between that and adultery! Smuggling the murder weapon out in his medical bag would have been incredibly risky. If he had been found out, Bowen would be facing financial ruin, the end of his marriage, a good long stretch in jail as an accomplice following a trial, and the end of his career. And for what? A few kisses from Lizzie?

Even if he'd been desperately in love with her (no evidence whatsoever of that) would he have done that? The only speck of an inference that anything might have gone on was a snide remark by Abby's stepmother that they had sat together at a church service!

I think the Crowe Barn hatchet was THE one for various reasons, and virtually saved Lizzie's neck by not being discovered by anyone until nearly the end of her trial. If Bowen smuggled a weapon out he would still have had to dispose of it without being suspected.

Incidentally, why wouldn't Bowen leave Lizzie in the house (with police there and her friends) while he went to send the telegram? Surely it would be even more suspicious if he had said to her "Come on Lizzie! Come with me to send a telegram to Emma!" Eyebrows would be shooting up from Mrs Churchill, Alice, his wife and everybody else in earshot!
User avatar
debbiediablo
Posts: 1467
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:42 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Deborah
Location: Upper Midwest

Re: irregular events

Post by debbiediablo »

I'm more inclined to think that if Bowen took the hatchet out in his medical bag then he did it because he was witness to goings on in that home that caused him to see Lizzie as a victim who was justified in defending herself.
DebbieDiablo

*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'*
Even Paranoids Have Enemies


"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
User avatar
Curryong
Posts: 2443
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Rosalind
Location: Cranbourne, Australia

Re: irregular events

Post by Curryong »

Same thing still stands though, surely? If Bowen did it out of compassion he still ran an incredible unwarranted risk.
User avatar
debbiediablo
Posts: 1467
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:42 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Deborah
Location: Upper Midwest

Re: irregular events

Post by debbiediablo »

Yes, that is for sure, although some of his risk may have been taken earlier. By this time he may have been protecting himself as well as Lizzie.
DebbieDiablo

*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'*
Even Paranoids Have Enemies


"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
leitskev
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:56 pm
Real Name: kevin lenihan

Re: irregular events

Post by leitskev »

Lizzie could have told Bowen to help her get rid of the evidence or she would tell of their affair. That would have ruined the young doctor's career and life. And if Bowen cared about Lizzie he might have been inclined to help her. The risk of getting caught was not that high. Who would look in his bag? And he was out of the house with it before the police arrived(or maybe one cop had arrived? the police were just then arriving I think).

So Bowen left before the house was searched for the killer, before anyone knew where Abby was. Somewhat unusual, maybe. But then Bowen runs some other errand after sending the telegram...THEN returns to the house. That is very strange. Whether Bowen was happily married we could not know and doesn't even really matter. He was young and lived across the street from 2 unmarried women.

I do not believe Bowen would help Lizzie cover up the crime unless there had been something untoward in their own relationship. And if there was, he surely would have had incentive. In fact, the very questioning by the prosecutor seems to be digging here for signs of this very thing. Such questioning would have to be subtle since there was no evidence for that kind of scandal, but note how he keeps pressing the matter of whether Bowen observed Lizzie the day before and on another occasion(I think) when she left the house.
User avatar
Curryong
Posts: 2443
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Rosalind
Location: Cranbourne, Australia

Re: irregular events

Post by Curryong »

Dr Bowen was born in July 1840. He was 52 years old at the time of the murders. Not so young.
User avatar
irina
Posts: 802
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:56 pm
Real Name: Anna L. Morris

Re: irregular events

Post by irina »

Though I think Lizzie innocent, if she wasn't I have an idea the hatchet and bloody dress were hidden in plain sight in the closet thing in the kitchen where also was kept the flats and the coal scuttle. The police originally asked Bridget to produce the axes/hatchets in the house. They didn't toss the place looking for anything. The police made odd comments about the closet which apparently was large and sounded like it may have been a pantry at one time. Lizzie later pulled the dress out of this closet, to burn it. Bloody or not I'd bet that dress was in there all along but police were looking for a dress in closets and other likely places, not in the rag bag. If the hatchet was pitched onto Crowe's barn then that part would be wrong, but I think the dress was always there, possibly ripped a few times so it looked like rags.
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
leitskev
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:56 pm
Real Name: kevin lenihan

Re: irregular events

Post by leitskev »

Actually, Irina(and nice to meet you), if you have the chance, go over the trial transcripts. You will get the impression of a very thorough search. What throws people off is that there are a few references to what feels like cursory searches. And there were cursory searches...sandwiched around more exhaustive searches. That Friday, the search was somewhat cursory. But 2 very thorough searches were done Sat and Mon. Skilled laborers were brought in to disassemble chimneys, search trunks, move woodpiles, empty septic pits. It's a slog to read the whole transcript, but you will come away with the impression of a motivated and thorough search. They clearly believed that the weapon had to be in the house(because they believed Lizzie did it) and they also believed none of the hatchets and axes they had lined up on the cellar floor were the correct one. So they were determined to find it. And they didn't. Eventually they fudged things so that the broken hatchet became the weapon they were seeking, but I think they knew this wasn't the one.

What happens is that people take selective quotes from the trial and post them, but it doesn't give us a full and true picture of the search. Could they have missed the hatchet? Anything is possible, but it WAS a thorough search. They COULD have missed the dress. For one thing, after seeing the gruesome crime, they were probably looking for a blood cakes dress, not one with a few small drops. But their focus, as is usual in murder cases, was finding the murder weapon.

As for Lizzie being innocent, well, there are an awful lot of things that point to guilt. And it is hard to figure how an intruder got into the house unseen, killed Abby, waited an hour or two, then killed Andrew and got out without having been seen or heard. But it will always be difficult to imagine how Lizzie killed Andrew, cleaned herself up, and hid the weapon all within what appears to be at best 5 minutes. I did not know about Crowe's roof until recently, and that seems very plausible, maybe the only plausible thing I've heard as far as her getting rid of the hatchet. And yet the local authorities dismissed it completely. They might have had good reason. Maybe it didn't match. Maybe they had reason to believe some kid threw it up there. We just don't know.
User avatar
debbiediablo
Posts: 1467
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:42 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Deborah
Location: Upper Midwest

Re: irregular events

Post by debbiediablo »

BOBO wrote:
BOBO wrote:Someone with more knowledge help out here. By placing the stomachs in alcohol, would that have removed any trace of prussic acid? Hope this isn't a double post.
I can see I'm urinating up a gum stump. I have ask this several times.... WTH... I'll ask Hank.

"Hydrocyanic acid is incompatible with the mineral acids, the salts of iron, the sulphides, chlorine, the oxides of mercury, of antimony, nitrate of silver, etc. Light decomposes it, hence it should always be kept in bottles that are darkened or covered so as to prevent the rays of light from passing into them. In using this acid medicinally, care should always be taken to procure the diluted preparation. Scheele's medicinal hydrocyanic acid is stronger than the official diluted acid of the United States Pharmacopoeia, as 2 is to 5. A very weak hydrocyanic acid is less liable to decomposition than the stronger preparations, hence it is that such preparations as Scheele's (above) is unfitted for medicinal use, on account of the readiness with which it loses strength. Prof. J. U. Lloyd has shown that a hydrocyanic acid made with a portion of alcohol will retain its properties unaltered and without apparent loss, for at least three years.

"When largely diluted (2 per cent), it has been employed in medicine as a sedative to subdue spasm, and allay nervous irritability. It has been used to relieve revere vomiting and purging, to check colliquative diarrhoea, to cure pertussis and spasmodic coughs, asthma, hysteria, chorea, dyspepsia connected with morbid irritability of the stomach, etc.; also externally in several diseases of the skin. It has likewise been found beneficial in the cough of consumptives, cardiac palpitations, hypertrophy of the heart, and in difficult breathing. It is useful in angina but not so valuable as amyl nitrite or glonoin. Minute doses relieve congestive headache. But, from its volatility, its variability of strength, and its proneness to decomposition, it will very frequently disappoint the expectations of the practitioner, either by inducing fatal symptoms, or being wholly inert. The dose of the diluted acid is from 1 to 3 drops in water, mucilage or syrup."

From King's American Dispensatory, 1898, written by Harvey Wickes Felter, M.D., and John Uri Lloyd, Phr. M., Ph. D.

http://www.henriettes-herb.com/eclectic ... -hydr.html
DebbieDiablo

*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'*
Even Paranoids Have Enemies


"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
User avatar
Curryong
Posts: 2443
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Rosalind
Location: Cranbourne, Australia

Re: irregular events

Post by Curryong »

So there you are, BOBO! An answer to your question about stomachs! Incidentally, doctors were extremely fond of Scheele's mixture in the 19th century. Their surgeries must have been awash with it!

Yes, the police search was quite thorough on the Saturday. As the murder occurred on the Thursday, when the search was cursory (looking in cupboards for intruders, etc) that's not particularly helpful. I get annoyed at the dilatory nature of the way things were handled sometimes. In spite of modern-day police stuff-ups (hello, Possum) at least now Lizzie would be made to change her clothing and the family would have been moved out as soon as senior police arrived and the house declared a crime scene, had the murder happened today.
User avatar
irina
Posts: 802
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:56 pm
Real Name: Anna L. Morris

Re: irregular events

Post by irina »

However considering HCN~prussic acid or hydrocyanic acid~it would be unlikely much if any would have remained in the stomachs even if the victims were dosed that morning in their mutton broth. They didn't die of cyanide poisoning as they bled from the hatchet wounds. HCN has a complex range of actions considering it is a very small, inorganic molecule. Attaching to a metal ion creates much more stable cyanide salts. The acid solution is very weak and tends, especially in water to dissociate to ammonia and bicarbonate. There is a single bond between H~C and a triple bond between C~N. It occurs naturally in nature and the universe. It could be a basis for the beginning of life on earth. Some common foods contain cyanide in various concentrations. Notably cassava root which we know as tapioca which must be processed before it can be eaten. People can survive chronic cyanide poisoning and sulfur compounds can act as an antidote to lower levels of cyanide poisoning as the human body can tolerate thiocyanate which is excreted in urine, better than HCN.

My original answer was based on HCN being a somewhat unstable molecule.
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
User avatar
Curryong
Posts: 2443
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Rosalind
Location: Cranbourne, Australia

Re: irregular events

Post by Curryong »

Bridget supposedly went upstairs at about 10:54am didn't she? If Lizzie called Bridget at about 11:10am that would give Lizzie about 12 to 15 minutes. If she was covered by the Prince Albert she wouldn't need to change her clothing.

I think as far as the Crowe's Barn hatchet was concerned, the police were only too glad when the carpenter turned up to claim it. Lizzie's trial was almost over and the police avoided embarrassing questions about how they had missed searching the roof of nearby barns at the time of the murders. Wasn't there speculation in 1893 that workmates had played a trick on him (the carpenter) and thrown it up there?
BOBO
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:54 pm
Real Name: Tim Boyd

Re: irregular events

Post by BOBO »

THX to each of you for your response on my question of prussic acid/alcohol. ANOTHER one of my theories shot down...lol.
Tell the truth, then you don't have to remember anything.... Mark Twain
User avatar
debbiediablo
Posts: 1467
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:42 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Deborah
Location: Upper Midwest

Re: irregular events

Post by debbiediablo »

BOBO wrote:THX to each of you for your response on my question of prussic acid/alcohol. ANOTHER one of my theories shot down...lol.
I'm taken by the line, "But, from its volatility, its variability of strength, and its proneness to decomposition, it will very frequently disappoint the expectations of the practitioner, either by inducing fatal symptoms, or being wholly inert. ..." but then realize that warnings of a similar nature can be found on some medications today. We fail to read them.
DebbieDiablo

*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'*
Even Paranoids Have Enemies


"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
User avatar
Curryong
Posts: 2443
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Rosalind
Location: Cranbourne, Australia

Re: irregular events

Post by Curryong »

Boston Advertiser Oct 11th 1892.

'Mr Borden talked with Secretary Rounseville of the Manufacturer's Association shortly before his death' (actually only a few days before) 'about his family affairs. He told Mr Rounseville that he was not living at his farm during the summer because there was so much trouble in his family that he did not feel like going....'

Although 'the girls' ceased going for the summer at Swansea after the Whitehead house quarrel, Andrew and Abby usually did.
User avatar
snokkums
Posts: 2545
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:09 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Robin
Location: fayetteville nc,but from milwaukee
Contact:

Re: irregular events

Post by snokkums »

Don't know if it's conincedence or not, but it's amazing how everyone was there but not. Emma was living in the house but she was visiting people in fairhaven, Uncle John was there but running an errand, even Andrew was out for a bit. Maybe people going on about their buisness or a great coincedence . Either way Lizzie sure had a golden opportunity.

:smiliecolors:
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
User avatar
Curryong
Posts: 2443
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:46 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Rosalind
Location: Cranbourne, Australia

Re: irregular events

Post by Curryong »

Yes, usually Abby and Bridget would be bustling about doing housework, inside the house. Actually there's a bit of a minor mystery about Bridget and washing the windows. John Morse testified that Abby told Bridget to wash the windows that morning while he, Andrew and Abby were sitting at breakfast. Bridget's testimony, however, was that Abby came up to her later, after John had left, and told her to wash them 'as they were awful dirty'. Anyway, whatever, John and Andrew were out, Emma, as you say, was away, and Lizzie and Abby were inside.
User avatar
PossumPie
Posts: 1308
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:26 am
Real Name: Possum Pie

Re: irregular events

Post by PossumPie »

Firstly, Unless cyanide is found at the time of death, elevated cyanide concentration can only be found for up to two days under current toxicological testing. It stands to reason 100 years ago it would have been less time.

There Are coincidences in this world. Synergisms are a combination of several elements that together make the outcome stronger than they would have individually. In the human body, a muscle may not be able to lift an arm, but in synergy with another muscle, can lift very heavy weights. There are some new-age ideas that nothing is "chance" and I'm not going to get into philosophy. If I roll two dice, and 3 and 1 come up, was is coincidence? chance? the twitch of my muscles in my hand, the air flow over the plastic, the angle of the die hitting the table theoretically could all be calculated, and the numbers predicted. BUT in real world, no- it is random chance. The problem with "chance" is that we hate to believe in it. People say "I don't believe in random chance" b/c it is scary to think something could happen beyond our control. Today is 9/11. For days after the attacks, I heard people say "I was supposed to be in the WTC but I over-slept." or "I missed the flight that hit the pentagon" We hate to think it was something as boring as chance, so we say "my guardian angel kept me safe" or "God kept me safe" or the energy of the universe, or whatever. I'm not knocking peoples faith, but EVEN if any of those were true, we still have no predictive powers over that, so it is as good as random chance. My biggest frustration with the Borden case has always been separating random chance actions and words from ones that may hold the key to solving the mystery.
Occam's razor doesn't say something is true, just given several possibilities, the simplest one is USUALLY true. If I saw a dead cow under a tree in a thunderstorm, I could say Aliens from Venus came down to do experiments on the cow.........or lightning hit the tree where it was standing out of the rain. Neither may be correct but the second explanation is far more LIKELY.
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
BOBO
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:54 pm
Real Name: Tim Boyd

Re: irregular events

Post by BOBO »

AHHH...HAAA... back to believing Lizzie did poison them! Thx.
Tell the truth, then you don't have to remember anything.... Mark Twain
User avatar
debbiediablo
Posts: 1467
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:42 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Deborah
Location: Upper Midwest

Re: irregular events

Post by debbiediablo »

(CNN) -- The body of an Illinois lottery winner was exhumed Friday by the Cook County medical examiner's office after toxicology results showed he died of cyanide poisoning.

An autopsy was performed on Urooj Khan's body, Dr. Stephen Cina, county medical examiner, told reporters.

It will take a few weeks for testing results and he could not predict the results, he said. Cyanide can evaporate after death, and it's possible it may not be present, he said.

Murder by cyanide poisoning is extremely rare, experts say.

Khan died in July, the day after the lottery issued him a check for about $425,000 after taxes. He won the money playing a scratch-off game a month earlier.

"We are investigating it as a murder, and we're working closely with the medical examiner's office," Chicago police spokeswoman Melissa Stratton said last week.

Cina said Friday, "We've already determined it was a homicide, and nothing we've seen today would change that."

On the day he died, Khan's wife said she made dinner at home and then he went to bed. A little less than an hour later, his screams of agony woke her up. His family rushed him to a hospital, but it was too late.
Lotto winner's death a mystery

Initially, doctors ruled the 46-year-old died of natural causes. But later that week, an unnamed relative called the medical examiner's office.

"This person must have made a compelling case," Cina told CNN's Martin Savidge this month. "This was serious enough to order a full battery of toxicology, including unusual agents such as cyanide and strychnine."

The lab technician retested Khan's blood, and results came back in November. "It was definitely in the lethal range for cyanide in the blood," Cina said.

Cook County policy is not to perform autopsies on anyone under 50 unless the death is suspicious or an autopsy is requested.

Cyanide is among the most potent and deadly poisons, but it is not easy to get. The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission prohibits the retail sale of products with cyanide salts. It is, however, available from industrial sources. It cleans metal and is used in research labs and mining.

Cyanide can be found in some household products, such as acetonitrile false fingernail remover. There are also tiny quantities of it in cigarette smoke, and even smaller amounts in almonds, the pits of stone fruits such as apricots, and lima beans. Someone would have to eat a large quantity of those foods for them to become toxic.

"Like everything else, dose makes the poison," said Dr. Robert Geller, medical director of the Georgia Poison Center and an associate professor at Emory University School of Medicine. He co-wrote a study about cyanide poisoning and pediatric patients.

For someone to die from cyanide poisoning, he or she would have to inhale or consume a large quantity, which can cause a quick death, according to Geller.

If someone received a less severe exposure, such as through eating, the person would show early symptoms of weakness, confusion, headache, dizziness and shortness of breath. If untreated, the person could experience nausea, hypertension, vomiting, coma, seizure and then death due to cardio-respiratory arrest.

A person who has been poisoned with cyanide may take on a cherry-red coloring, and the retinal veins and arteries would appear red because the person's cells cannot get oxygen from the blood.

In a small number of cases, a patient's breath may smell like bitter almonds due to the excretion of unmetabolized cyanide, but more often than not it's undetectable, according to Geller.

"In terms of intentional poisonings, you don't have a lot of that with cyanide," Geller said. The Georgia Poison Center has handled more than 800,000 cases of poisoning, he said, and cyanide rarely turned up in those cases.

There is an antidote kit (PDF) available for cyanide, but doctors treating Khan would have had to suspect cyanide early in his treatment to use it.

"Because it is so rare and is used so infrequently, the medical profession may have a difficult time recognizing cyanide poisoning," Geller said.

The same is true after death. Scientists don't usually test for cyanide in the battery of toxicology tests they may run in a suspicious death and don't generally look for it unless there is a reason to suspect it.

Plus, there's an economic factor. "The harder you want to find something, the more expensive it is, and this country's forensic labs run on a shoestring budget," Geller said.

Even knowing that Khan was poisoned, it may be difficult to determine how the cyanide got there. "Cyanide does break down in the body fairly quickly, so they may not find much," Geller said.

"Now that he's been buried and embalmed, you don't have the ideal situation," said Dr. Daniel J. Spitz, a forensic pathologist and toxicologist and the chief medical examiner for Michigan's Macomb and St. Clair counties.

Spitz co-wrote the book "Medicolegal Investigations of Death," considered the bible of forensic pathology that pathologists worldwide use.

"If this were me, I'd be hoping with an autopsy every other cause of death is rejected," Spitz said. "You don't want to have a competing cause of death when you present your case in court."

In this next step in the investigation, scientists will examine Khan's brain, the liver and even solid organs to try to detect the presence of cyanide so they have more than one test showing it's what killed him -- and a better sense of how it was introduced into his body.

"Many people think, with this kind of poisoning being rare and something that may not be seen, that this would be a murder someone could get away with," Geller said. "But clearly it is not, since they did figure out this was cyanide, and there is a very good likelihood someone will get caught."

http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/18/health/cyanide-poisoning/
DebbieDiablo

*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'*
Even Paranoids Have Enemies


"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
Post Reply