Why Lizzie could be innocent

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augusta
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Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by augusta »

Since I started reading Lizzie Borden as a kid, I used to think Lizzie was innocent and believed that someone could have snuck in the cellar and went up to the guest room and killed Abby, hid in the guest room or that downstairs closet for Andrew to come home, then murdered him. I could never figure out who or why but was thinking along the lines of someone in the business world who despised him.

The more I read and got older, I thought that Lizzie did it.

Then after reading more yet, what didn't make sense to me was that Lizzie was a Christian. I don't think she was pretending. There were many acts of kindness she bestowed upon many people. Her attitude toward animals was also impressive. After her handwritten burial instructions came to light, we read in those that she wanted a Christian burial. I think she even named the Bible verses she wanted said. I tend to think that anyone religious as she could not commit the murders. It seems to be a total contradiction of her basic character. :?:
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by MysteryReader »

Hi Augusta,

I don't think her being a Christian had anything to do with it. If a human is pushed enough or suffers enough, one can snap. I used to think she was innocent and now, I don't know what to think. :smile: It certainly was out of character for her, if she indeed committed the crimes. We just don't have enough information as to what went on in that house in prior years. I've often wondered why didn't Emma and Lizzie move out and get a house together, if they didn't like Abby or whatever might have been going on?
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by patsy »

At one time I thought maybe she had snapped and killed Abbey, but then killing her father after some time doesn't seem to fit with someone killing in a fit of passion but of course anything is possible. I always wondered about the man in the carriage that Mark Chase saw. I think it's possible someone could have gained entry and hid in the house and got caught upstairs by Abby. So I'm torn but tend to believe she was innocent although not because she was a Christian. It would seem that because of her apparent strong Christian belief she would have felt a need to confess on her deathbed if she had done the murders I think.
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by augusta »

Hello, Mystery Reader -
That would seem like the best thing for 'the girls' to do, as you say to move out together. I get the idea that they weren't home all that much. And maybe they wanted to stay in the house on Second street ("street" was not capitalized back in Lizzie's day) to make sure they didn't miss anything. When you read the Coroner's Inquest, it comes out that the trouble in the house began five years earlier when Andrew bought Abby part of a house owned by Jane Grey she was selling, to prevent Abby's beloved half-sister, Bertie, from being possibly homeless. "What you do for her people, you ought to do for your own," the girls told Andrew (not a direct quote), so Andrew bought them his father's home, a house on Ferry street. They got to collect rent from it, until they grew tired of it. They happened to sell it back to Andrew, which cost Andrew $5,000 more, only two weeks before the murders. This hits me as very coincidental. Were the plans to have Andrew and Abby killed in the works then? Were 'the girls' aware that they would not get that $5,000 if they waited another two weeks and Andrew was dead?

Hello, Patsy - Which man did Mark Chase see? There were several men seen around the Borden house, and some weird men seen around Fall River that morning.
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by snokkums »

augusta wrote:Since I started reading Lizzie Borden as a kid, I used to think Lizzie was innocent and believed that someone could have snuck in the cellar and went up to the guest room and killed Abby, hid in the guest room or that downstairs closet for Andrew to come home, then murdered him. I could never figure out who or why but was thinking along the lines of someone in the business world who despised him.

The more I read and got older, I thought that Lizzie did it.

Then after reading more yet, what didn't make sense to me was that Lizzie was a Christian. I don't think she was pretending. There were many acts of kindness she bestowed upon many people. Her attitude toward animals was also impressive. After her handwritten burial instructions came to light, we read in those that she wanted a Christian burial. I think she even named the Bible verses she wanted said. I tend to think that anyone religious as she could not commit the murders. It seems to be a total contradiction of her basic character. :?:
Sometime, some very good Christian people can do some pretty horrid things. While we'll never know if she did it or not, something could have pushed her over the edge and she killed her parents. She and Emma weren't that fond of Abby and Andrew was a bit of tight wad. That alone could have pushed her over the edge. She always thought that they could have afforded living on the hill. But, Andy didn't want to spend the money.
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by Franz »

I think we could be certain that a number of Christian murderers didn't confess on their deathbed, bringing with them their criminal secrets in the tomb. I am pretty certain that Lizzie was not one of them.
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by twinsrwe »

augusta wrote:... Then after reading more yet, what didn't make sense to me was that Lizzie was a Christian. I don't think she was pretending. There were many acts of kindness she bestowed upon many people. Her attitude toward animals was also impressive. After her handwritten burial instructions came to light, we read in those that she wanted a Christian burial. I think she even named the Bible verses she wanted said. I tend to think that anyone religious as she could not commit the murders. It seems to be a total contradiction of her basic character. :?:
Lizzie’s acts of kindness toward several people, her attitude toward animals, as well as her burial instructions all took place in her later years. At the time of the murders, Lizzie displayed quite different behaviors…

We know she demanded of her father that she and Emma be treated in the same manner as Abby’s relatives. She refused to refer to Abby as ‘mother’, choosing instead to call her ‘Mrs. Borden’. She refused to eat meals with Abby and Andrew, and she had a strong dislike/hatred for Abby. I do not believe these are the ‘actions’ of a Christian. At the time of the murders, I believe Lizzie was a religious person, which means she related to or believed in a religion. However, simply believing in God is not enough, nor is going to church, being a Sunday School teacher, a member of the Christian Endeavor Society and the Women’s Christian Temperance Union; none of these things mean she was a Christian.

However, Lizzie may or may not have been a Christian at the time of the murders, and she may or may not have been a Christian in her later years; we really don’t know what her status was on this issue. Even if Lizzie was a Christian at the time of the murders, doesn’t mean she didn’t swing the hatchet. All of us have a breaking point, where we lose control and do things we normally wouldn’t do.
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by violette »

I've always thought that the prime motive for the murder was utter frustration with the way that they were living, and the want to live a richer lifestyle (with a more prominent position in society). I think that's why Lizzie purchased the more extravagant Maplecroft. She was involved in the church, but she may have also used that as a means to get out and step into society and to have a chance to see more people.
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by NancyDrew »

Did Lizzie remain closely tied to a church in her elder years? If so, it's possible she confessed the murders to a minister.
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by Nadzieja »

I don't think Lizzie confessed anything. I truly believe at the age of 32 she felt trapped with no way out. Even though they weren't living on the hill Andrew had money. It was difficult for a single woman to make their own way in the world at that time. Many became school teachers, nurses, and don't forget all the women that worked in the mills. I think Lizzie thought herself above all of that, but was also feeling that she didn't accomplish a whole lot with her life up to this point. I'm sure Emma had a lot of influence on her not liking Abby and all of them living in that house was one constant irritation after another. As far as I know Lizzie was shunned by the people in her church after her acquittal. She seemed to be shunned by most of Fall River bur she wouldn't leave.

Everyone has a breaking point, even Christians, if you've studied church history there is amazing injustice, murder and bloodshed.
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by Kevin Luna »

You know that hitler was a Christian, right?
Matthew 27:24-25 wrote: When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “It is your responsibility!”

All the people answered, “His blood is on us and on our children!”
Yikes
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by Phil1963 »

> Then after reading more yet, what didn't make sense to me was that Lizzie was a Christian.

Full disclosure: I'm not a Christian.

My experience in life, FWIW, is summed up in a line I'm stealing from someone here ... About 5% of the general population are evil bastards, 2% are saints, and the other 93% are somewhere in between.

From what I've observed, living in the Bible Belt, about 5% of Christians are evil bastards, 2% are saints, and the other 93% are somewhere in between.

And it's also been my experience that about 5% of "X" are evil bastards, 2% are saints, and the other 93% are somewhere in between for just about any "X" you can imagine. Doesn't work if X equals, say, Mafia hit men; but it seems to be that way for physicians, Buddhists, IRS agents, atheists, and so on.

Also, back in 1892, everyone was a Christian, at least publicly ... at least everyone who aspired to any station above the lowest menial laborer.

I don't think Lizzie's Christianity has anything to do with it one way or the other.
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by Miss Pea »

Kevin Luna wrote: Tue May 10, 2016 11:17 am You know that hitler was a Christian, right?
Matthew 27:24-25 wrote: When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “It is your responsibility!”

All the people answered, “His blood is on us and on our children!”
Yikes
Amen!! Thank you for this. If someone says they are a Christian---so what? I can think of famous, contemporary (living) Americans who say they are Christian. So what?
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by Steve887788 »

It was inconsistent in the manner that she lived her life.
:birthdaysmile:
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by Steve887788 »

Oh plus there were no witnesses
no murder weapon
no blood stains on her person or dress for any of the murders
no confession
no past criminal activity
timeline from AJs murder to when LIZZIE herself gave the alarm to the maid was immediate
no family friction other than she was an old maid living with her thrifty father that stopped calling her step mother, mother in 1887 and called her Mrs. Borden.
100% cooperation with the police,nothing to hide
No blood stains on any dresses found in the house
Main friction between Lizzie and Abby were at its peak approximately five years past
Mullaly testifies that there was a hatchet handle - Assistant Marshall Fleet testified there was no handle. - In other words - shady police work.
Lizzie's civil rights violated minutes after she lost her father and step mom - by asking questions w/o counsel present, In other words - shady police work.
Last edited by Steve887788 on Thu May 05, 2022 7:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.
:birthdaysmile:
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Kat
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by Kat »

Lately I've been watching forensic shows on tv again, like Forensic Files II, Murder 360(?) etc...anyway, a couple of times what happened afterwards was the person threw up. One guy's friend says he kept throwing up after he got home, and a year or so later after he became a suspect and was taken in for questioning, he confessed and retched and retched. The police acted like that was a normal thing for someone who had not killed before or after.

I think anyone "somewhat normal" who snaps and stabs 22 times like this perp did, has a really hard time dealing with it...it ruined this guys life. It haunted him. And that is in current days, where we are sophisticated and also saturated with killing and murder in movies and TV and video games.

The only person who went outside to retch for over 10 minutes that morning was Bridget, and I've always wondered about that...did she do it or saw it done?
Lizzie doesn't seem to be some evil super villain who could kill so horrendously and wait 90 minutes and kill again just as viscously and then on Saturday somewhat calmly state that if she's suspected she's ready to be arrested and taken to jail. And subsequently live pretty quietly and able to function.

Bridget got out of town not long after her release from bond as "witness," didn't she? :?:
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by KGDevil »

According to newspaper articles that I've read in Fall River papers there are mentions of Bridget still working for Josiah Hunt as late as 1897.
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by Kat »

Really? I thought she didn't want to be associated in anyone's mind as working at or for the jail, during her bond period, so I wonder why she stayed? She supposedly complained about that- like her mail being addressed to the jail.

Well, any comments on retching? As I mentioned, I always wondered about that. If we skew the timeline slightly, and admit anything could have happened, caused by anyone between just before 9 am til Bridget was seen outside, we could have any of the inmates killing Abbie. All we really know is that Abbie is dead, and according to Bridget, she's throwing up.
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by augusta »

I can see that my initial post is in need of clarification. I did not mean that just because Lizzie was or portrayed herself as being a Christian that she could or would not kill. I was looking at the truly good works she had done in her time, works that point to a person of at least some good intention. Her love of animals is one. The torturing of animals can today be indicative of a very cruel adult; a murderer or serial killer. (I know, even Hitler had a dog - a German Shepard named Blondie. I am not making blanket statements; only generalities.) I believe Lizzie was one of the persons who actually got the Fall River Animal Rescue League started. She is on record as helping out horses - giving bags of apples or something like that. She and Emma both gave very generously in their wills to the animals of Fall River. She did serve Christmas dinner to poor children in Fall River. She treated her servants at Maplecroft very kindly and paid college tuitions of one or more servants' children. If she knew one had a problem, she was often one to give assistance wanting no recognition for herself.
I agree wholeheartedly that she hated the house at 92 Second street ("street" was not capitalized in her day). It is interesting to go there and to see how close the house is to downtown - it's like a few steps. I think I would be embarrassed, too, of my father being a wealthy businessman and selling eggs and vinegar out of his house, tottering about Fall River in the same old black unfashionable coat and stovepipe hat, picking up stray locks and probably anything still having any kind of use for it, even if he could not think of one at the moment. I should not say "tottering", because when you look at his unclothed body after his murder from the waist up, he looked to be in pretty good shape for his age. But Lizzie, I imagine, might have disgustedly thought of him as 'tottering', because I think she was so fed up with him and The Large One that she could have thrown "old" in her list of adjectives she let fly about him to Emma.
There were some occupations unmarried women in their 30's could do then. Yes, a school teacher, a seamstress, working in the mills. But not for someone of Lizzie's standing. She could get married, or she could continue to live with her father. She was tied to her father who held the purse strings that only opened to her on Allowance Day, which was paltry and she certainly could not live on that.
What made me look at the possibility of Lizzie's innocence came to me from someone I interviewed who was a descendant of staunch Lizzie supporters. I had never looked at Lizzie as innocent before; not truly innocent even of conspiracy. The loyalty there, still strong after generations, made it impossible for me to look away from that point of view. There must have existed a reason for it. The way she was treated afterwards, and to this day. My God, what if she were innocent? :?:
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by Rolie Polie »

Kat wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 5:38 am Really? I thought she didn't want to be associated in anyone's mind as working at or for the jail, during her bond period, so I wonder why she stayed? She supposedly complained about that- like her mail being addressed to the jail.

Well, any comments on retching? As I mentioned, I always wondered about that. If we skew the timeline slightly, and admit anything could have happened, caused by anyone between just before 9 am til Bridget was seen outside, we could have any of the inmates killing Abbie. All we really know is that Abbie is dead, and according to Bridget, she's throwing up.
Indeed, the retching is most interesting aspect of this. I'm glad you've brought it up. Bridget is the one who's sick and the one who wants to bolt out of Fall River at the end of the trial. Although she could also be pregnant, which is another can of worms. Lizzie is composed, together, and fully functioning from the day of the murders to the day she leaves jail- with the exception of the opiate that she was given the entire time, and then beyond. Such a clue may have caused unrelated detectives to review their opinions of other murders.

I've always been of the mind that some small piece of evidence would be in plain sight for forever and suddenly become a fulcrum, shifting it all onto someone else. The Retching is something like that. [Morse got away way too easy for his skill set, his business deals with Andrew, his crazy alibi, and his sudden appearance the night before the murders.]

Such evidence, I'm thinking, would be similar to the small newspaper clip over at Warps and Wefts about Miss Borden being injured at church a fairly short time before the murders when a full, heavy dumb waiter fell down the shaft and landed square on her two arms. Such was her condition that they thought both might be broken, but you know darn well what it would take to, shortly thereafter, whack 2 people 30-40 times with an hatchet, enough to kill them.
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by camgarsky4 »

Rolie -- even with all the known missing information, we still have so much available to us to research this case. I agree that there are pieces of evidence/documentation that can enable us to reconstruct very defendable scenarios of what lead up to the killings, how they were executed and how the aftermath played out. Keep poking and proding!
Rolie Polie wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 6:13 pm Such evidence, I'm thinking, would be similar to the small newspaper clip over at Warps and Wefts about Miss Borden being injured at church a fairly short time before the murders when a full, heavy dumb waiter fell down the shaft and landed square on her two arms. Such was her condition that they thought both might be broken, but you know darn well what it would take to, shortly thereafter, whack 2 people 30-40 times with an hatchet, enough to kill them.
Here is the full sentence related to her injury as reported in the June 16th edition of the Fall River Daily Evening News.
"It was feared for a few minutes that both arms were broken, but we are glad to say that Miss Borden escaped with nothing more serious than painful bruises."

The actual incident happened the day before, June 15th. The murders occurred around 50 days later.
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by mbhenty »

Little story:

I use to workout with this maniac. Good friend. Power-lifter and most power fellow. One day he was working with a heavy bag, punching and sparing with it with heavy bag boxing gloves. He went at it for a full minute. He then challenged me. If I could go a minute with the bag he would buy me a coke. (though I rather a cold beer)

I was in very good shape. I was into body building. So I had my turn. After 20 to 25 seconds I was done. He laughed to no end. I never realized to what level you must be in good shape to complete such a feat for a short minute. Not strength but endurance.

Thus, the same with swinging an axe and doing it quickly. Try it with a heavy hammer. You would be surprised how pooped and how quickly it will happen. So you must be in good shape. Even for a farmer or butcher wheeling an ax.

But this little venture goes out the window, somewhat, once emotion and adrenaline kicks in.

Now, let's consider someone such as John Morse. Also, taking into account his age. Now a professional, or someone in the habit or business of putting-down horses could do the job. But he would be certain of Abby's death after a couple of blows and not need to hit her 19 or 20 times. Unless the impertinent recipient just would not stop screaming, you understand. But even after one to two blows the poor thing would be so dazed that screaming would halt by the third blow..... supposedly.

Two good reasons for so many blows are:

Hatred, revenge and anger.

Or:

Not certain how many times or blows it takes to kill someone with an axe. Which would speak to someone very untutored in taking life.

:study:
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by camgarsky4 »

I have always imagined the attacks as relying on extreme focus, determination, hyper-adrenaline and when it was unleashed.....many blows occurred until the energy was fully spent. My simplistic view is that AJB had fewer blows since so much had been released with Abby.

My 'analogy'....remember the spinning top? The harder and faster you wound up the bottom piece, the faster it spun after the windup.

To your point, this approach to attacking does not feel professional or trained on the act of slaughtering a living creature.
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by mbhenty »

Yes :smile:

That's a very good analogy, camerasky4.

Not to get off topic here, but lets.

I remember when I was a child, back during the Roman period. We use to play Spinning Tops. The most popular game items at that time, at least in my neighborhood, were tops, marbles, and pinky balls along with an old broken broom handle; where we would play stickball in the middle of the street. And no, I did not wear my bother's hand-me-down shoes.... or Roman sandals.

We would draw a circle on the ground and.... well, I forget the rules to Tops. But I do remember the bullies who came to play and always tried to split our tops in half with theirs, or simply picked them up and walked way with them, since our tops were much nicer than theirs.

But it is certainly true, that the tighter you weaved the string around the top the more energy was administered once you flung it.

And the more bitterness and contempt festers, the stronger the will and body.



(Below is a "silly" YouTube excerpt from that movie which was a sequel to The Christmas Story. Of course, our tops were not as nice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdEgijZeht8&t=22s)
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by Rolie Polie »

camgarsky4 wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 6:12 am Rolie -- even with all the known missing information, we still have so much available to us to research this case. I agree that there are pieces of evidence/documentation that can enable us to reconstruct very defendable scenarios of what lead up to the killings, how they were executed and how the aftermath played out. Keep poking and proding!
Rolie Polie wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 6:13 pm Such evidence, I'm thinking, would be similar to the small newspaper clip over at Warps and Wefts about Miss Borden being injured at church a fairly short time before the murders when a full, heavy dumb waiter fell down the shaft and landed square on her two arms. Such was her condition that they thought both might be broken, but you know darn well what it would take to, shortly thereafter, whack 2 people 30-40 times with an hatchet, enough to kill them.
Here is the full sentence related to her injury as reported in the June 16th edition of the Fall River Daily Evening News.
"It was feared for a few minutes that both arms were broken, but we are glad to say that Miss Borden escaped with nothing more serious than painful bruises."

The actual incident happened the day before, June 15th. The murders occurred around 50 days later.
I found this on Warps and Wefts, again. What a great site that is! A handful of references to the dumb waiter event. If it was that heavy and fell that far and that fast, her arms may not have been visibly fractured, but certainly could have been hairline fractured where even an Xray wouldn't discover them. Also, the bruising was said to be severe and that would take quite a long time to recover from. Then, there's the potential for blood clots, which usually accompany serious orthopedic injuries. It was roughly 7 weeks from the murders.
https://lizziebordenwarpsandwefts.com/2 ... OSkP9gMdZg
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Re: Why Lizzie could be innocent

Post by camgarsky4 »

To your point, it is possible that Lizzie was so injured from the dumb waiter accident that it would have impaired her ability to swing a hatchet. If that was the case, I presume her attorney's would be fully aware of the facts. Considering they pursued every possible angle to create reasonable doubt, seems odd that they did not surface this impairment at either the preliminary hearing nor the trial.

The family physician, Dr. Bowen, never mentions that Lizzie has been severely injured in any of his testimonies or comments to the police or reporters.

For ease of reading, pasted below is the article Rolie and I have been referencing which was written the day after the dumb waiter incident. All other newspaper accounts that mention the episode were published post-murders and many weeks after the actual incident. What sources the newspapers are quoting is not made clear.
Screenshot 2024-02-01 002640.png
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