Bridget's Whereabouts

This the place to have frank, but cordial, discussions of the Lizzie Borden case

Moderator: Adminlizzieborden

Post Reply
User avatar
InterestedReader
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:52 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Wendy A.
Location: UK

Isn't this weird....

Post by InterestedReader »

Then, in 1920.... There is no 704 Alder St., and the usual Bridget and John M are at 701.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M832-KTP

While the Bridget & John who had been at 704, have moved to 613 Oak Street:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M83K-LW9
Last edited by InterestedReader on Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
MysteryReader
Posts: 808
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:03 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Misty
Location: somewhere in GA

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by MysteryReader »

Just out of curiosity, what are y'all planning on doing with the information IF you find Bridget?
User avatar
InterestedReader
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:52 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Wendy A.
Location: UK

Two John & Bridgets

Post by InterestedReader »

701 and 704 Alder Street. They couldn't be closer. They stand directly opposite.

I'm wondering if the first, the elder John & Bridget at the 704 plot, build and develop the 701 plot. The elder John & Bridget, their 3 daughters and another family - 9 people - are all squashed into 704. When they move to nearby Oak Street, 704 ceases to appear on the Census. 701 appears, with John M. & Bridget in the new build, and larger plot.

Surely they're related, these two John & Bridgets.

The elder John & Bridget were married in 1882 or 1884, depending on what they tell Mr Census. Their daughters Mary and Catherine or 'Kate' were born in Connecticut, and Nora in Montana.

The elder Bridget was Bridget Coffey Sullivan.
John's parents were John and Catharine Sullivan:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NW1L-7X8

If there's any relation with Alder St. Bridget it would be John, I suppose.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by InterestedReader on Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:46 am, edited 5 times in total.
User avatar
InterestedReader
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:52 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Wendy A.
Location: UK

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by InterestedReader »

MysteryReader wrote:Just out of curiosity, what are y'all planning on doing with the information IF you find Bridget?
Mysty, my sanity won't live to see the day :smile:
User avatar
InterestedReader
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:52 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Wendy A.
Location: UK

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by InterestedReader »

irishlass78 wrote:Is this Bridget's sister?

This is from Bridget's genealogy by O'Dwyer:
Cait (or Catherine), b. March 1862, married Eugene O'Sullivan, son of Mark O'Sullivan and Anna Newman, Kilmichael, Dursey Island. (LBQ, Vol. III, Number 2, April, 1996).

https://archive.org/stream/lizzieborden ... 9/mode/2up

My own handicap is, I haven't discovered how to read O'Dwyer online. Apart from this one same article. It looks like one needs to buy the books to evaluate his research - the labour of a lifetime apparently. Sorting through 'sun-bleached and water-stained' papers. I'm sure it's very important.

But how can the Bordens' Bridget be linked with any one Bridget in Irish records, such as they are. There's a 1901 Irish Census. Then nothing. Back to 1851. Which doesn't have Co. Cork. So isn't it pretty much nap on incomplete baptismal records? It's almost set in stone now that Bridget was the daughter of Eugene and Mary Leary Sullivan but as yet I've seen none of the reasoning which makes her so.

Currently the biggest clues must be her relatives of resource once in the States, such as her Harrington 'cousin' or 'married sister'. Or other Sullivans established in Fall River, or Pennsylvania... Or her true relation (if any) to Eugene and Johanna of Butte...

What is it which makes the O'Dwyer identification so compelling?

FWIW, Bridget doesn't anyway strike me as coming from a rural Irish community.
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

InterestedReader wrote:
irishlass78 wrote:Is this Bridget's sister?

This is from Bridget's genealogy by O'Dwyer:
Cait (or Catherine), b. March 1862, married Eugene O'Sullivan, son of Mark O'Sullivan and Anna Newman, Kilmichael, Dursey Island. (LBQ, Vol. III, Number 2, April, 1996).

https://archive.org/stream/lizzieborden ... 9/mode/2up

My own handicap is, I haven't discovered how to read O'Dwyer online. Apart from this one same article. It looks like one needs to buy the books to evaluate his research - the labour of a lifetime apparently. Sorting through 'sun-bleached and water-stained' papers. I'm sure it's very important.

But how can the Bordens' Bridget be linked with any one Bridget in Irish records, such as they are. There's a 1901 Irish Census. Then nothing. Back to 1851. Which doesn't have Co. Cork. So isn't it pretty much nap on incomplete baptismal records? It's almost set in stone now that Bridget was the daughter of Eugene and Mary Leary Sullivan but as yet I've seen none of the reasoning which makes her so.

Currently the biggest clues must be her relatives of resource once in the States, such as her Harrington 'cousin' or 'married sister'. Or other Sullivans established in Fall River, or Pennsylvania... Or her true relation (if any) to Eugene and Johanna of Butte...

What is it which makes the O'Dwyer identification so compelling?

FWIW, Bridget doesn't anyway strike me as coming from a rural Irish community.
This has been my question also. What are O'Dwyers sources that make his research any more convincing or compelling than anyone else who has followed the illusive Bridget? I haven't seemed to find an answer either. Just as it seemed set in stone that the John M. Sullivan married in 1905 was the same man who died in 1939. Because it was somehow left out of the equation that they had different parents. Or that Bridget moved to Butte in 1942 and lived with Mary until her death in 1948. Not the case. What are O'Dwyers sources?
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
User avatar
InterestedReader
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:52 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Wendy A.
Location: UK

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by InterestedReader »

KGDevil wrote:
This has been my question also. What are O'Dwyers sources that make his research any more convincing or compelling than anyone else who has followed the illusive Bridget? I haven't seemed to find an answer either. Just as it seemed set in stone that the John M. Sullivan married in 1905 was the same man who died in 1939. Because it was somehow left out of the equation that they had different parents. Or that Bridget moved to Butte in 1942 and lived with Mary until her death in 1948. Not the case. What are O'Dwyers sources?
O'Dwyer appears to be very popular with Irish-Americans tracing their ancestors, to judge by the genealogy boards. It is astonishing, and fascinating, how so few Brera families proliferated into so many Americans once they'd emigrated. How small the gene-pool, in other words. But currently we're left to guess at the reasoning behind the statement that Bridget was born at Billerough, one of 12 children, to Eugene and Mary Leary Sullivan. How is that established? I'm not sure that Bridget even testified she was from Co. Cork. Probably she was... but so were a lot of other Bridgets. That said, a birth-year of 1864 is an improvement on later estimates.

My guess is, that O'Dwyer accepted the Bridget in Butte story, the 1905 marriage as hers, and worked up along the genealogy of that particular Sullivan parentage. Thus Bridget marrying John M. and living in Alder Street, is identified as the Bordens' Bridget. But how is the Bordens' Bridget even gotten to that 1905 marriage? By means of a 14 year old housekeeper at the Winstons, the one who's still in Ireland in 1896 at time of hiring?

It makes no internal sense, the claim putting Bridget in Butte. She's the great-aunt. They seem to imply, by blood. OK, then she's either Eugene's sister or Johanna's. Which means Bridget's father was either a Jeremiah or a Daniel Sullivan. Why Eugene?

One of the funnier Bridget Sullivans I've found on FamilySearch was a librarian in Butte. I wondered if she was the one giving out Minnie Green stories and assuring people everyone had gotten the wrong Bridget!
User avatar
MysteryReader
Posts: 808
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:03 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Misty
Location: somewhere in GA

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by MysteryReader »

InterestedReader wrote:
MysteryReader wrote:Just out of curiosity, what are y'all planning on doing with the information IF you find Bridget?
Mysty, my sanity won't live to see the day :smile:

:lol: I bet not!
User avatar
InterestedReader
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:52 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Wendy A.
Location: UK

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by InterestedReader »

MysteryReader wrote:
InterestedReader wrote:
MysteryReader wrote:Just out of curiosity, what are y'all planning on doing with the information IF you find Bridget?
Mysty, my sanity won't live to see the day :smile:

:lol: I bet not!
Yes it may seem loony concentrating so hard - But I don't think anyone's really looked at the problem thoroughly enough before. IrishLass and KD are brilliant genealogists, me I just barge at odd hit-and-miss stuff but I do have small areas of expertise - and we may eventually find her. You never know - perhaps Bridget had a more interesting life than the current careless sketch. And that would be cool. To find it.

This genealogy gives me serious headaches though. My own family (Brits) go straight back to the Norman invasion & beyond, 10 or 11 centuries, & it's a bloody doddle compared with a million Sullivans all with the same names :grin:
User avatar
MysteryReader
Posts: 808
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:03 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Misty
Location: somewhere in GA

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by MysteryReader »

So did anyone find Bridget? :lol: Also, I love genealogy!! :grin:
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

MysteryReader wrote:So did anyone find Bridget? :lol: Also, I love genealogy!! :grin:
I have been doing some research whenever I have time. But I have had no real luck. I was wondering if anyone had found any new interesting leads also. Bridget is definitely a difficult person to track down. I agree, genealogy is fascinating MysteryReader. You never know, maybe one the members will be the one to crack the case of what happened to Bridget.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
User avatar
MysteryReader
Posts: 808
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:03 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Misty
Location: somewhere in GA

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by MysteryReader »

I have been doing some research whenever I have time. But I have had no real luck. I was wondering if anyone had found any new interesting leads also. Bridget is definitely a difficult person to track down. I agree, genealogy is fascinating MysteryReader. You never know, maybe one the members will be the one to crack the case of what happened to Bridget.[/quote]

I thought at one point that I had found our Bridget. But I can't find my notes on the subject. :cry: Maybe one day I can start over. I thought it'd be neat if someone wrote a book on life after the murders, and included people like Bridget, the good Doctor, etc. Who knows :?:
Shanifaye
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:07 pm
Real Name:
Location: Lilburn, GA

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by Shanifaye »

KGDevil wrote:I decided to just do some digging around for records for Bridget's siblings. I do not have access to O'Dwyer's genealogy of her family, and I tend to want to see the documentation and records for myself. I did begin with the list of siblings privided by Naomi Farthing Sullivan. I searched using Eugene Sullivan/Owen Sullivan and Margaret Leary as the parents. For Seamus (James) I took it to mean that Seamus was known as James. So it wasn't hard to make the leap that Phillip could be John.

List of Siblings.

Denis - born March 1853
Timothy - born July 1854
Eugene - born ?
Mary - born June 1858 (died young)
Johanna - born July 1860 (died young)
Cait (Catherine) - born March 1862
Ellen - born May 1867
Mary #2 - born January 1869
Philip and Seamus(James) - born April 1872 (twins)
Johanna #2 - born January 1874


Ireland Births and Baptisms, 1620 - 1881.

Helena Sullivan. Born July 7, 1867 at 66, Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Father Owen Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary.

Mary Sullivan. Born January 29, 1869 in Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Christening place 76, Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Father Owen Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary

James Sullivan. Born April 6, 1872 in Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Christening place Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Father Eugene Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary.

John Sullivan. Born April 6, 1872 in Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Father Eugene Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary.

Johanna Sullivan. Born January 14, 1874 in Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Father Owen Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary.



Ireland Births and Baptisms.

John Sullivan. Born April 6, 1872 in Cork, Ireland. Father Eugene Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary.

James Sullivan. April 6, 1872 in Cork, Ireland. Father Eugene Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary.

Bridget Sullivan. Born March 28, 1864 at 76, Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Father Owen Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary.

****It wont let me delete this....I think now I'm wrong, the Montana death index lists this mans age as 65 at the time of death, according to the list above he should have been 74. Dang....feel free to delete :)

Hi :) LONG time member, but normally I'm just a reader cause y'all always say or post the things I've already come across. I found this obit I thought I'd add the thread as *appears* to be for Bridget's brother Tim listed above (The Montana Standard 11/19/1928) I could be wrong (for example it says he's a native of MA, but being a genealogist for over 30 years and knowing how old newspapers did obits, this wouldn't have been unusual) . (Y'all already had the 1948 article on her death and her will, though the first page seems to be missing or I could have over looked it. If its missing I have it if anyone wants it posted)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
twinsrwe
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Judy
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by twinsrwe »

Shanifaye wrote:... ****It wont let me delete this....I think now I'm wrong, the Montana death index lists this mans age as 65 at the time of death, according to the list above he should have been 74. Dang....feel free to delete :) ...
Hello, Shanifaye, welcome back to the forum!
To delete something within your submitted post, click on the very first icon that is indicated in the upper right hand side of the post you wish to delete. That icon is for editing something within your post; this icon looks like a tiny pencil. To delete a post take out all of the information, then leave only a period, and then submit it. Hope this helps.
Shanifaye wrote:... I found this obit I thought I'd add the thread as *appears* to be for Bridget's brother Tim listed above (The Montana Standard 11/19/1928) I could be wrong (for example it says he's a native of MA, but being a genealogist for over 30 years and knowing how old newspapers did obits, this wouldn't have been unusual) . (Y'all already had the 1948 article on her death and her will, though the first page seems to be missing or I could have over looked it. If its missing I have it if anyone wants it posted)
Thank you for posting Tim Sullivan's Obituary. Very interesting. This is the first time I have seen it.

All four pages of Bridget's will are there; the first page is in the post I which submitted prior to the post of her last three pages. If you have a better appearing copy of her will, then please feel free to post it. My copies are not the cleanest copies.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
Shanifaye
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:07 pm
Real Name:
Location: Lilburn, GA

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by Shanifaye »

twinsrwe wrote:
All four pages of Bridget's will are there; the first page is in the post I which submitted prior to the post of her last three pages. If you have a better appearing copy of her will, then please feel free to post it. My copies are not the cleanest copies.
Hey Twins, thanks! This was the page I was referring to (I guess technically its not part of the actual will)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

Shanifaye wrote:
twinsrwe wrote:
All four pages of Bridget's will are there; the first page is in the post I which submitted prior to the post of her last three pages. If you have a better appearing copy of her will, then please feel free to post it. My copies are not the cleanest copies.
Hey Twins, thanks! This was the page I was referring to (I guess technically its not part of the actual will)
Hello, Shanifaye. I have actually already traced the family tree for this particular Tim and Bridget "Bridgie" Sullivan. I have actually worked to build their family tree on ancestry.com. It was catching the nickname Bridgie in a city directory that put me on the hunt. Unfortunately, this is not our Bridget Sullivan.

This Bridget Mary Sullivan was born to Patrick Sullivan and Mary Hanley in Houghton, Michigan in 1879. Her brother Tim was indeed born in Massachusetts. It was a rather large family and they were fairly easy to track down through birth records, death records, city directories, census records, and obituaries. The obituaries for all of the family members were most helpful.

If you will notice on Tim's death certificate the informant is his sister "Bridgie" Sullivan.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
Shanifaye
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:07 pm
Real Name:
Location: Lilburn, GA

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by Shanifaye »

Great job! I had planned on working on that today so you've saved me some trouble lol (I can't resist working on family trees that have absolutely no ties to me whatsoever... I'm a genealogy addict
User avatar
twinsrwe
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Judy
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by twinsrwe »

Shanifaye wrote:
twinsrwe wrote:
All four pages of Bridget's will are there; the first page is in the post I which submitted prior to the post of her last three pages. If you have a better appearing copy of her will, then please feel free to post it. My copies are not the cleanest copies.
Hey Twins, thanks! This was the page I was referring to (I guess technically its not part of the actual will)
You're welcome, Shani. You are correct, the document you posted is not a part of Bridget's actual will; it is in regards to her estate. Thank you for posting this document, which I have not previously had in my file.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
User avatar
twinsrwe
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Judy
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by twinsrwe »

KGDevil wrote:
Shanifaye wrote:
twinsrwe wrote:
All four pages of Bridget's will are there; the first page is in the post I which submitted prior to the post of her last three pages. If you have a better appearing copy of her will, then please feel free to post it. My copies are not the cleanest copies.
Hey Twins, thanks! This was the page I was referring to (I guess technically its not part of the actual will)
Hello, Shanifaye. I have actually already traced the family tree for this particular Tim and Bridget "Bridgie" Sullivan. I have actually worked to build their family tree on ancestry.com. It was catching the nickname Bridgie in a city directory that put me on the hunt. Unfortunately, this is not our Bridget Sullivan.

This Bridget Mary Sullivan was born to Patrick Sullivan and Mary Hanley in Houghton, Michigan in 1879. Her brother Tim was indeed born in Massachusetts. It was a rather large family and they were fairly easy to track down through birth records, death records, city directories, census records, and obituaries. The obituaries for all of the family members were most helpful.

If you will notice on Tim's death certificate the informant is his sister "Bridgie" Sullivan.
OK, I’m confused. :scratch:

KG, please clarify for me. Are you saying that the obituary for Tim Sullivan that Shanifaye posted above is not our Bridget, or are you referring to the will I posted on page one of this thread, is not that of our Bridget?
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

twinsrwe wrote:
KGDevil wrote:
Shanifaye wrote:
Hey Twins, thanks! This was the page I was referring to (I guess technically its not part of the actual will)
Hello, Shanifaye. I have actually already traced the family tree for this particular Tim and Bridget "Bridgie" Sullivan. I have actually worked to build their family tree on ancestry.com. It was catching the nickname Bridgie in a city directory that put me on the hunt. Unfortunately, this is not our Bridget Sullivan.

This Bridget Mary Sullivan was born to Patrick Sullivan and Mary Hanley in Houghton, Michigan in 1879. Her brother Tim was indeed born in Massachusetts. It was a rather large family and they were fairly easy to track down through birth records, death records, city directories, census records, and obituaries. The obituaries for all of the family members were most helpful.

If you will notice on Tim's death certificate the informant is his sister "Bridgie" Sullivan.
OK, I’m confused. :scratch:

KG, please clarify for me. Are you saying that the obituary for Tim Sullivan that Shanifaye posted above is not our Bridget, or are you referring to the will I posted on page one of this thread, is not that of our Bridget?
Sorry for the mix up twins. I was in a hurry when I replied because I have had a lot going on at once recently and have to rush more than usual. I was referring to the obituary. I somehow quoted the wrong reply, but I did go on to explain that I had traced the family tree for the Tim Sullivan in the obituary and she is not our Bridget.

Though I wasn't referring to the will, I also do not believe it belongs to our Bridget because, in my opinion, all of the documentation provided in this thread seems to indicate otherwise.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
User avatar
twinsrwe
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Judy
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by twinsrwe »

KGDevil wrote:
twinsrwe wrote:
KGDevil wrote:
Hello, Shanifaye. I have actually already traced the family tree for this particular Tim and Bridget "Bridgie" Sullivan. I have actually worked to build their family tree on ancestry.com. It was catching the nickname Bridgie in a city directory that put me on the hunt. Unfortunately, this is not our Bridget Sullivan.

This Bridget Mary Sullivan was born to Patrick Sullivan and Mary Hanley in Houghton, Michigan in 1879. Her brother Tim was indeed born in Massachusetts. It was a rather large family and they were fairly easy to track down through birth records, death records, city directories, census records, and obituaries. The obituaries for all of the family members were most helpful.

If you will notice on Tim's death certificate the informant is his sister "Bridgie" Sullivan.
OK, I’m confused. :scratch:

KG, please clarify for me. Are you saying that the obituary for Tim Sullivan that Shanifaye posted above is not our Bridget, or are you referring to the will I posted on page one of this thread, is not that of our Bridget?
Sorry for the mix up twins. I was in a hurry when I replied because I have had a lot going on at once recently and have to rush more than usual. I was referring to the obituary. I somehow quoted the wrong reply, but I did go on to explain that I had traced the family tree for the Tim Sullivan in the obituary and she is not our Bridget.

Though I wasn't referring to the will, I also do not believe it belongs to our Bridget because, in my opinion, all of the documentation provided in this thread seems to indicate otherwise.
KG, thank you for clearing up my confusion! :grin: I thought when I read your post that you were referring to the obituary, because you did state that you had traced the family tree for Tim Sullivan, but you didn’t actually say anything about the obituary in doing so. My confusion came in because you had quoted my post regarding the will. In reading through the information that has been posted in this thread, I was pretty sure that "Bridgie" Sullivan was definitely not our Bridget. So, now that we are all on the same page with here, I have a couple of other questions for you.

It is my understanding that, so far, there has not been any documentation on our Bridget, which leaves no doubt that it is definitely her, is this correct?

I hold a great deal of respect for you and your opinions, so I would be very interested in getting your opinions on why you believe that all of the documentation provided in this thread seems to indicate these are not our Bridget. Would you mind sharing your opinions with us?
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

I had already posted what I considered to be pretty convincing evidence. But I can try to summarize all of my reasons in one post.

Leonard Rebello page 66:

"A marriage certificate, dated 1905, was issued to John M. Sullivan and Bridget Sullivan. The marriage took place on June 21, 1905, at St. Paul's Church by Father J. M. O'Brien. Attendents for the newlyweds were Peter J. Sullivan and another woman named Bridget Sullivan who worked as a domestic for Judge George B. Winston. Mr. John Sullivan was born in Ireland (1868 as engraved on his headstone and the 1920 Federal Census listed his age as 52) and was the son of James and Margaret (Leary) Sullivan. He came to the United States in 1888 and became a citizen in 1896 (1920 Census). He was listed in the Anaconda City Directory in 1896. John Sullivan was a laborer, puncher and converter, furnace man, smelterman and later a helper for the Anaconda Copper Mining Company. After their marriage, Bridget continued to work as a domestic. The Sullivan's resided at various locations while in Anaconda. They purchased a home on 701 Alder in 1915. Mr. Sullivan died at St. Ann's Hospital, March 12, 1939. He had been a resident of Anaconda for fifty years. He was buried at Mount Olivet Cemetery in Anaconda.

In 1942, Bridget moved to Butte, Montana, to live with relatives at 112 East Woolman Street. She died at a local Hospital in Butte on March 25, 1948, at the age of 73. Cause of death was cardiac failure, arteriosclerosis and senility. Bridget, for reasons unknown, was blind at the time of her death. She is buried at Mount Olivet Cemetery in Anaconda, Montana."


First, there is the fact that the marriage license for Bridget Sullivan and John M. Sullivan lists his parents as Daniel Sullivan and Julia Sullivan. But the alleged death certificate for John M. Sullivan lists his parents as Jim Sullivan and Margaret Leary. If these documents refer to two different John M. Sullivans they also cannot be married to our same Bridget Sullivan of Borden fame either. John M. Sullivan may seem distictive enough. But there was more than one listed in City Directories for Butte and Anaconda.

Some try to explain the discrepancy by saying when John died in 1939 Bridget was not in her right mind due to senility and didn't remember the names. But this contradicts the fact that three years later in 1942 she supposedly had a will drawn up. One of the requirements for making a will is being of sound mind. It contradicts that she was clear minded enough in 1942 to remember names and relationships to other family members, even those she was related to by marriage, and who should get what. But then she couldn't remember the names of her in-laws in 1939.

It doesn't explain why Leonard Rebello wrote that John M. Sullivan was the son of James and Margaret (Leary) Sullivan. He obviously had access to the marriage license that listed his parents as Daniel Sullivan and Julia Sullivan. Would they have been more confused about his parentage years earlier when they got married? While he was alive?

The marriage license is dated 1905. But the John M. Sullivan of Anaconda doesn't have a wife named Bridget listed as living in his home in any available Anaconda City Directories until 1928. Leonard Rebello states they bought the house at 701 Alder in 1915. But only John is listed there until 1928. A Bridget Sullivan is not even listed separately at that address. When it was customary for a wife's name to be listed with her husband. They even listed places of employment.


Anaconda City Directories Listings:

1909 

John M. Sullivan Red'n Wks 412 Monroe


1916, 1917 

John M. Sullivan Red'n Wks 701 Alder


1918 

John M. Sullivan laborer Red'n Wks 701 Alder


1925

John M. Sullivan lab, A C M Co 701 Alder


1928, 1930, 1936

John M. Sullivan (Bridget) A C M Co 701 Alder

In 1939, Bridget is listed at 701 Alder as the widow of John M. It was a custom to list a widow with the name of her deceased husband in the directory every year she remained alive. If you go back and look at the directory pages I shared you will see it was the common accepted practice.

1939 

Bridget Sullivan (wid John M. ) 701 Alder


By the time of the 1941 Directory Bridget is no longer listed. She is gone and nobody is living at 701 Alder. The house is vacant.


In 1942, the Butte City Directory did show a Bridget Sullivan living at 112 East Woolman. But she is not listed as being the widow of John M. as the Bridget Sullivan had been in the 1939 Anaconda Directory. The Mary Sullivan who also lives at 112 East Woolman, however, is listed as (widow Tim.) since her husband is deceased. Mary Sullivan is still listed as being the widow of Tim even in 1948 which is the year Bridget supposedly died.

In the 1945 Directory Bridget Sullivan is not listed at that address any longer. I did not have access to the 1943 or 1944 directories to search for her. But she is gone from that address by 1945.

In 1948, the year on the alleged death certificate, the only Bridget Sullivan in the Butte City Directory is listed as being a resident of the County Hospital. Which means she lived there. The County Hospital is listed on the death certificate alleged to belong to our Bridget as the informant who provided the information. Which leads me to conclude no next of kin were available. Where were Mrs. Mary Sullivan and the relatives listed in the will?

In my opinion, I think this information indicates that not only was this not our Bridget, but it is the information for more than one woman named Bridget Sullivan.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
User avatar
twinsrwe
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Judy
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by twinsrwe »

KG, thank you for posting this summary of your findings. I know you have posted a lot of convincing evidence throughout this thread, but it sure puts everything together with this summary.

Your summary has helped me to realize that I agree with your findings and conclusions. :grin:
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
mbhenty
Posts: 4427
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:20 am
Real Name:

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by mbhenty »

:smile: It's a beautiful thing when someone posts intelligently after doing their homework. :thumright:
User avatar
gerontologist
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:11 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Gretchen J. Hill

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by gerontologist »

I wish I had concrete information to contribute, but all I have is a small comment about whether someone without a middle name might, at some point in his or her life, add a middle initial. There are famous examples of persons who did just that. For example, President Truman did not have a middle name, but he wound up signing everything "Harry S Truman" (he didn't use the period after the S, because it didn't stand for anything anyway). It's probably frustrating to not have a middle name or middle initial in a world that expects one, and if you find yourself in a position of having to distinguish yourself from a lot of other people with your same name, you might add an initial. That's all.
User avatar
gerontologist
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:11 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Gretchen J. Hill

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by gerontologist »

Post Script. I find the discussions here fascinating. In this thread, I'm also reminded why I let my mom do all the geneology research. Yikes!
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

:arrow:
Last edited by KGDevil on Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

:arrow:
Last edited by KGDevil on Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

:arrow:
Last edited by KGDevil on Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

:arrow:
Last edited by KGDevil on Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

:arrow:
Last edited by KGDevil on Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

:arrow:
Last edited by KGDevil on Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

:arrow:
Last edited by KGDevil on Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

:arrow:
Last edited by KGDevil on Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

:?:
Last edited by KGDevil on Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

:arrow:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

:arrow:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

:arrow:
Last edited by KGDevil on Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

:?:
Last edited by KGDevil on Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

Last edited by KGDevil on Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

:?:
Last edited by KGDevil on Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
User avatar
InterestedReader
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:52 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Wendy A.
Location: UK

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by InterestedReader »

Hi KG😈

Gene Sullivan's own sister 'Mrs Otto Schrieb' is, as you know, a Bridget.
Gene's 'sister-in-law Mrs Bridget Sullivan of Butte' - who are you taking that to be? His wife Jo's sister?
(Correction) ...This would be 1942!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

:?:
Last edited by KGDevil on Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
User avatar
InterestedReader
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:52 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Wendy A.
Location: UK

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by InterestedReader »

KGDevil wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:28 am
This has been the interesting part I'm still unraveling. Because Eugene Sullivan, of 709 N Main, is listed as having a sister-in-law named Bridget Sullivan in his obit. But also, Johanna's husband Jeremiah Sullivan of 1900 Yale is also listed as having a sister- in - law Bridget Sullivan as well.
Um... should that be Johanna's *brother* Jeremiah? Otherwise, me lost...
KGDevil wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:28 am Note that in Eugene Sullivan Jr.'s obit it does mention an Uncle John of Anaconda, but it does not list a wife for him in 1926.
Yes! Noticed that. Would the wife normally be included?

As you know, I suspect the two 'Bridget' photos supplied by the Porter sisters to be of two different women. But they do seem to have been taken at Alder St, so there was some sort of family connection.... .(???)
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

Yes, Wendy, thank you for catching that blunder. It should be Johanna's brother not her husband. :shock:

I'm not sure. I noticed that no wife was included for Jerry Sullivan either. So, I won't say it definitely means anything.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
User avatar
InterestedReader
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:52 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Wendy A.
Location: UK

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by InterestedReader »

...Just look at Eugene's sister being called 'Bridgie' in 1926. I very much wonder if she's the 'Aunt Bridgie' of the now-famous photo. If so, why was she visiting Alder St, Anaconda?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

InterestedReader wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:58 am ...Just look at Eugene's sister being called 'Bridgie' in 1926. I very much wonder if she's the 'Aunt Bridgie' of the now-famous photo. If so, why was she visiting Alder St, Anaconda?
I've seen Eugene's sister Bridget called Bridgie more than once.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

KGDevil wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:28 am Note that in Eugene Sullivan Jr.'s obit it does mention an Uncle John of Anaconda, but it does not list a wife for him in 1926.
InterestedReader wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:41 am Yes! Noticed that. Would the wife normally be included?

As you know, I suspect the two 'Bridget' photos supplied by the Porter sisters to be of two different women. But they do seem to have been taken at Alder St, so there was some sort of family connection.... .(???)
Johanna's Sullivan's obituary in July of 1932 mentions a brother named John living in Anaconda. Again, with no wife listed. Which I cannot say with 100% certainty means he was unmarried since it shows no wife for her brother Jerry. But, then, in the Card of Thanks from the family it is signed Eugene Sullivan and Family, Mr. - Mrs. Jerry Sullivan, and John Sullivan (no and family, or Mr. - Mrs.)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by KGDevil »

Bridget Sullivan's 1948 obituary failed to mention many of they family members we associate with the 701 Alder Street Bridget Sullivan. The will failed to mention these family members.
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
User avatar
InterestedReader
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:52 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Wendy A.
Location: UK

Re: Bridget's Whereabouts

Post by InterestedReader »

Well this is the crux of the problem. Where does she fit into this family, Alder St Bridget?
Is her husband John
Johanna's brother?
Eugene's brother?
So far, we found the answer to be no.

I've found extended family for Alder St Bridget, but they don't link back to Eugene & Jo.
Post Reply