Bridget's Whereabouts

[twinsrwe]

... Just going through and reading the posts again before I get started on my search for Bridget. I can't believe I misplaced pages of information I had! Did she die on March 25, 1948?

Yes, Bridget died on March 25, 1948.

[twinsrwe]

Did anyone else notice that Uncle John didn't give his exact age, when asked? He replied about 60. I wonder if it was common back then not to know the specific date of one's birth?

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/wp-conten ... orden1.pdf (p.99). I can't get it to highlight so I can copy/paste.

I don't know as though it was common practice back in the 1800's not to know one's birth date. John Morse’s date of birth was July 5, 1833. Perhaps, Uncle John said, “About 60’, because the day he testified was Wednesday June, 7, 1893; only 28 days before his 60th birthday.

[MysteryReader]

I don't know as though it was common practice back in the 1800's not to know one's birth date. John Morse’s date of birth was July 5, 1833. Perhaps, Uncle John said, “About 60’, because the day he testified was Wednesday June, 7, 1893; only 28 days before his 60th birthday.[/quote]

Thanks, Twins! I didn't know his birthdate either.

[twinsrwe]

You're welcome, Mystery.

Uncle John's answer to how old he was is very much like Lizzie's answer regarding how old her father was. Instead of saying that her father was 69 years old, she stated, ‘He was seventy next month’.

The Inquest Testimony was held August 9-11, 1892. Andrews date of birth was September 13, 1822.

Inquest Testimony Of Lizzie Borden (Questioned by Mr. Knowlton), page 47(4):

Q. What was your father’s age?
A. He was seventy next month.

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/wp-conten ... nquest.pdf

[twinsrwe]

... The article also mentioned "The Fall River Legend," the ballet choreographed by Agnes De Mille, who also wrote a book about the Borden case, "A Dance of Death." ...

I don't know if the first three links are the actual "The Fall River Legend" ballet, which was choreographed by Agnes De Mille, or not. The person who uploaded these videos didn't know the source.

http://tinyurl.com/h6wbhyy

http://tinyurl.com/zzor8xm

http://tinyurl.com/zkvas55

The person who uploaded these videos, ‘took the last portion of Fall River Legend 3/3 and River 2/2 (YouTube videos) and edited them together so the complete Agnes De Mille ballet is more easily viewable. Watch Fall River Legend 1/3, Fall River Legend 2/3 and then ending mashup 1/2 then finally this one, 2/2, to see the entire dance.’

http://tinyurl.com/h5zulrv

http://tinyurl.com/jfvxuz4

The New York Times, Leaps and Pirouettes and 40 Nasty Whacks, by JENNIFER DUNNING, NOV. 3, 2007:

http://tinyurl.com/h2hkp5v

[twinsrwe]

... I did a Google book search to see what I could find about Bridget. The search does not offer previews, only snippets. I found this:

https://books.google.com/books?id=UZg_AAAAIAAJ
Agnes De Mille - 1968 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions
The Anaconda Bridget Sullivan did indeed die in 1950 and caused a ripple in the press, but the Omnibus TV Research Department, then working on the Borden television drama, claimed she was not the Borden Bridget, the dates of her entry ...

I don't know what "the dates of her entry" refers to, as that's where the snippet cuts off. Does anyone have a copy of "Dance of Death," by De Mille, that could shed light on this?

Here you go, Irish...

Lizzie Borden: A Dance OF Death, by Agnes De Mille, page 78:

Of Bridget’s conduct after the trial we know nothing. She lost herself as quickly as possible. The house, the town, the family had grown accursed.

Radin traces Bridget to old age in Anaconda, Montana, where feeling that she was about to die, she summoned a friend to whom she had decided to make a confession, but on the friend’s arrival recovered somewhat and prudently kept her mouth shut.

The Anaconda Bridget Sullivan did indeed die in 1950 and caused a ripple in the press, but the Omnibus TV Research Department, then working on the Borden television drama, claimed she was not the Borden Bridget, the dates of her entry into the United States not checking out. In any case, Radin’s best efforts turned up only an old Irish woman who refused to talk.

[violette]

Living in that house, which was a ticking time bomb of jealousy and anger, would have made for some good tales from Bridget. I'm sure that she must have seen things that were a little suspicious or knew just how tumultuous things had become.
So all in all, I'm sure she could have said quite a few things had she thought she was on her death bed. I do wonder why she was so loyal and did keep her mouth shut about the entire debacle for the rest of her life.

[irishlass78]

Twins, you rock! Thank you for posting the rest of the De Mille snippet...it's much appreciated!

[twinsrwe]

Living in that house, which was a ticking time bomb of jealousy and anger, would have made for some good tales from Bridget. I'm sure that she must have seen things that were a little suspicious or knew just how tumultuous things had become.
So all in all, I'm sure she could have said quite a few things had she thought she was on her death bed. I do wonder why she was so loyal and did keep her mouth shut about the entire debacle for the rest of her life.

Legend has it that Lizzie paid Bridget off to keep her mouth shut, but there is no evidence that a pay-off ever occurred. I think Bridget had a much bigger motive than money, which caused her to zip her lips forever. I recalled something in Agnes De Mille's book, which I ran across when I was looking for the ending of the snippet that Irish was seeking, which, I believe, sheds light on why Bridget took whatever she knew to the grave with her.

Lizzie Borden: A Dance OF Death, by Agnes De Mille, page 54-55:

After intensive and fruitless searching, the idea of an outsider as murderer was reluctantly abandoned by the police.

Bridget had had her own candidate for suspicion. "The Portuguese must have done!" She later claimed preference for a Swede. Both men, however, established alibis far from the scene. Nevertheless, Bridget continued to be frightened of "that terrible man."

Failing an outsider, there remained four who had legitimate access to the house - Uncle Vinnicum and Emma had established satisfactory alibis and their veracity was never questioned. There remained the two women, Lizzie and Bridget; both were present; both had opportunity.

Bridget was obviously the ideal suspect, the desirable victim, an alien, friendless, unprotected, semiliterate, of a scorned faith and nationality. If there had been a shred of evidence against her. or any reasonable suspicion, she would have been arrested immediately, and well she knew it.

She changed her testimony in several details, and wept and broke down on occasion, and indulged in lamentations when the police arrived to fetch her. She also came to trial as chief witness for the prosecution with her own lawyer, James T. Cummings, a fact which Edward Radin in Lizzie Borden: The Untold Story finds both singular and ominous. But by the time of the trial, Bridget had shared in a good deal of legal browbeating. She was a poor and vulnerable creature, a member of a despised class against which there was active, venomous prejudice in the town if not in the courts. She knew in what jeopardy she was placed; the “No Irish Wanted” signs had only just been taken down from local shops. She was scared.

Bridget had the opportunity to kill, but she had no apparent motive. She stood to gain nothing. The least she could lose was her livelihood, the most her life. …

Bridget’s motive for keeping her mouth shut: money vs. her life. It’s pretty much a no brainer. I think Bridget lived the rest of her life in fear. I also believe that Bridget knew within a very short period of time, on the day the murders occurred, who the killer was, and she wanted nothing more to do with the Borden girls, especially Lizzie. But, of course, I could be wrong.

[twinsrwe]

Twins, you rock! Thank you for posting the rest of the De Mille snippet...it's much appreciated!

Oh, thank you, Irish! You're very welcome for the rest of the snippet. I'm glad I had De Mille's book handy and could provide you with the full contents of the snippet.

[violette]

Lizzie Borden: A Dance OF Death, by Agnes De Mille, page 54-55:

After intensive and fruitless searching, the idea of an outsider as murderer was reluctantly abandoned by the police.

Bridget had had her own candidate for suspicion. "The Portuguese must have done!" She later claimed preference for a Swede. Both men, however, established alibis far from the scene. Nevertheless, Bridget continued to be frightened of "that terrible man."

Failing an outsider, there remained four who had legitimate access to the house - Uncle Vinnicum and Emma had established satisfactory alibis and their veracity was never questioned. There remained the two women, Lizzie and Bridget; both were present; both had opportunity.

Bridget was obviously the ideal suspect, the desirable victim, an alien, friendless, unprotected, semiliterate, of a scorned faith and nationality. If there had been a shred of evidence against her. or any reasonable suspicion, she would have been arrested immediately, and well she knew it.

She changed her testimony in several details, and wept and broke down on occasion, and indulged in lamentations when the police arrived to fetch her. She also came to trial as chief witness for the prosecution with her own lawyer, James T. Cummings, a fact which Edward Radin in Lizzie Borden: The Untold Story finds both singular and ominous. But by the time of the trial, Bridget had shared in a good deal of legal browbeating. She was a poor and vulnerable creature, a member of a despised class against which there was active, venomous prejudice in the town if not in the courts. She knew in what jeopardy she was placed; the “No Irish Wanted” signs had only just been taken down from local shops. She was scared.

Bridget had the opportunity to kill, but she had no apparent motive. She stood to gain nothing. The least she could lose was her livelihood, the most her life. …

Thanks so much for posting the quote from De Mille! I'm very interested in reading more of it now.

I can see why Bridget wanted to move to the midwest, and get away from the tragedy and Lizzie and Emma.
I have Irish ancestors on both sides of my family. My Great-Great Grandfather hopped a ship from Ireland bound for the US in the late 1880s. I can also understand why Bridget would have felt scared that the murders could have easily been pinned on her. I've always felt that she knew more than she let on in regards to the family, Lizzie, and what really happened the day of the murders. I'd want to move as far away as I could too.
Poor Bridget, I think that unfortunately she was just caught up in it all.

[KGDevil]

KG, another connection which you may be interested in checking out is Naomi Farthing Sullivan; apparently Bridget was her husband's great-aunt. See: http://tinyurl.com/hq6nkpw

Thank you for pointing me this the post by Naomi Farthing Sullivan from 1999. This following is taken directly from her post.

"She then moved to Butte, MT and lived with her niece, Mary Sullivan, my husband's mother, until shortly before her death 25Mar1948. She and John are buried in Mt Olivet Cemetery in Anaconda.
Her siblings, all born in Ireland, were Denis (b)Mar1853,Timothy (b)July1854, Eugene(b)? , Mary (b)June1858, Johanna (b)July1860 (Johanna and Mary died young), Cait(Catherine) (b)Mar1862, Ellen (b)May1867, Mary #2 (b)Jan1869, Philip and Seamus(James) (b)Apr1872, Johanna #2 (b)Jan1874."

I tracked down the death certificate from the records in the Montana, County Births and Deaths.

Timothy Joseph Sullivan died on February 10, 1985 in Anaconda, Deer Lodge, Montana. He was born January 16, 1931. His parents were listed as Timothy and Mary Sullivan. His wife is Naomi Farthing. He was also the victim of a homicide. Gunshot wound to the head.

[KGDevil]

Also from the Montana, County Birth and Deaths records is a birth certificate for Timothy Sullivan born on January 16, 1931 in Butte, Silver Bow, Montana to parents Timothy and Mary Sullivan.

[MysteryReader]

Does anyone know what Bridget's maiden name was? Was it Sullivan and she happened to marry a Sullivan, too?

[irishlass78]

HI KG:

I believe Timothy Sullivan was related to Bridget by marriage. His mother, Mary Sullivan, whose father was Jerry Sullivan, was the niece of Bridget's husband, John. Bridget was living with Mary at the time of her death in 1948.

Under the post "Bridget's Will," I listed the beneficiaries in the will and how they might be related.

[irishlass78]

HI Mystery:

Yes, Bridget Sullivan married another Sullivan...John M. Sullivan in 1905.

[MysteryReader]

Thanks, Irishlass!

I thought her name was Sullivan but couldn't remember.

[KGDevil]

I decided to just do some digging around for records for Bridget's siblings. I do not have access to O'Dwyer's genealogy of her family, and I tend to want to see the documentation and records for myself. I did begin with the list of siblings privided by Naomi Farthing Sullivan. I searched using Eugene Sullivan/Owen Sullivan and Margaret Leary as the parents. For Seamus (James) I took it to mean that Seamus was known as James. So it wasn't hard to make the leap that Phillip could be John.

List of Siblings.

Denis - born March 1853
Timothy - born July 1854
Eugene - born ?
Mary - born June 1858 (died young)
Johanna - born July 1860 (died young)
Cait (Catherine) - born March 1862
Ellen - born May 1867
Mary #2 - born January 1869
Philip and Seamus(James) - born April 1872 (twins)
Johanna #2 - born January 1874


Ireland Births and Baptisms, 1620 - 1881.

Helena Sullivan. Born July 7, 1867 at 66, Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Father Owen Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary.

Mary Sullivan. Born January 29, 1869 in Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Christening place 76, Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Father Owen Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary

James Sullivan. Born April 6, 1872 in Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Christening place Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Father Eugene Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary.

John Sullivan. Born April 6, 1872 in Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Father Eugene Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary.

Johanna Sullivan. Born January 14, 1874 in Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Father Owen Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary.



Ireland Births and Baptisms.

John Sullivan. Born April 6, 1872 in Cork, Ireland. Father Eugene Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary.

James Sullivan. April 6, 1872 in Cork, Ireland. Father Eugene Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary.

Bridget Sullivan. Born March 28, 1864 at 76, Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Father Owen Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary.

[InterestedReader]

Of the two Bridget photographs supplied by Dianna Porter in 1996, the one showing Bridget in best visiting-dress, standing with a man, is inscribed 'Aunt B...'

But in any image I've seen online, the rest of the script is excluded. There follows an '&' but below, where we might hope to see the gentleman named, there's only the beginning of a title. It may read 'Uncle' but not very plausibly. And then below that, of the next word there's only a capital letter visible. This shows how excised is the inscription - and indeed the overall image carries a spatial suggestion of being cropped. (If the original snap had another person on the left, one wouldn't be surprised.)

This woman is of course evidently 'Our Bridget'. One and the same with her photograph of 1886-7. But what happens to the words to potentially identify the man - and his relation to Bridget?

It's being stated that this photograph is of Bridget and her husband. Presumably then, the inky notation says it is Mr Bridget Sullivan.

So. Has anyone read the script in full?

Oh, am I allowed to post the image or is there copyright doo-da...

[twinsrwe]

… Thanks so much for posting the quote from De Mille! I'm very interested in reading more of it now.

I can see why Bridget wanted to move to the midwest, and get away from the tragedy and Lizzie and Emma.
I have Irish ancestors on both sides of my family. My Great-Great Grandfather hopped a ship from Ireland bound for the US in the late 1880s. I can also understand why Bridget would have felt scared that the murders could have easily been pinned on her. I've always felt that she knew more than she let on in regards to the family, Lizzie, and what really happened the day of the murders. I'd want to move as far away as I could too.
Poor Bridget, I think that unfortunately she was just caught up in it all.

You’re welcome for the quote, Violette. I think Agnes de Mille’s book, is a delight to read; she had a way of slipping in a humorous remark that leaves the reader smiling. For example, page 52 (I underlined the parts I found humorous.):

On Sunday, no policeman being indoors, but two on duty outside “to protect the family from further harm” (the police had been in and out, never aggressively, and mostly out, patrolling the yard where nothing pertinent went on), Lizzie was observed by Miss Russell burning in the kitchen wood store a light blue dress very similar to the one she was seen wearing on the fatal morning. It had paint on it, she explained. Her friend thought she shouldn’t have done that. Lizzie admitted on second thought maybe she shouldn’t. The dress was now ashes. Lizzie went on characteristically, “Oh, what made you let me do it?” (Mark how suddenly Lizzie took the position it was Miss Russell’s fault. Lizzie was not to be held responsible for cutting and tearing a dress and stuffing it in the wood stove.)

I agree, Bridget knew a lot more about what went on in the Borden household than she told. I also think she was very careful about what she said to the police as well as during her testimonies because she knew who the killer was, and if that person could brutally kill two people in broad daylight, then they could also do away with her. I have always found it very telling that Bridget refused to stay at the house overnight after the murders occurred.

[twinsrwe]

KG, another connection which you may be interested in checking out is Naomi Farthing Sullivan; apparently Bridget was her husband's great-aunt. See: http://tinyurl.com/hq6nkpw

Thank you for pointing me this the post by Naomi Farthing Sullivan from 1999. This following is taken directly from her post.


"She then moved to Butte, MT and lived with her niece, Mary Sullivan, my husband's mother, until shortly before her death 25Mar1948. She and John are buried in Mt Olivet Cemetery in Anaconda.
Her siblings, all born in Ireland, were Denis (b)Mar1853,Timothy (b)July1854, Eugene(b)? , Mary (b)June1858, Johanna (b)July1860 (Johanna and Mary died young), Cait(Catherine) (b)Mar1862, Ellen (b)May1867, Mary #2 (b)Jan1869, Philip and Seamus(James) (b)Apr1872, Johanna #2 (b)Jan1874."

I tracked down the death certificate from the records in the Montana, County Births and Deaths.

Timothy Joseph Sullivan died on February 10, 1985 in Anaconda, Deer Lodge, Montana. He was born January 16, 1931. His parents were listed as Timothy and Mary Sullivan. His wife is Naomi Farthing. He was also the victim of a homicide. Gunshot wound to the head.

You're welcome for my pointing out the post by Naomi Farthing Sullivan. Thank you for posting the information and death certificate you found on Timothy Joseph Sullivan. I found it interesting that he was a police officer who was shot three times with a .357 revolver, while on duty.

[twinsrwe]

I decided to just do some digging around for records for Bridget's siblings. I do not have access to O'Dwyer's genealogy of her family, and I tend to want to see the documentation and records for myself. I did begin with the list of siblings privided by Naomi Farthing Sullivan. I searched using Eugene Sullivan/Owen Sullivan and Margaret Leary as the parents. For Seamus (James) I took it to mean that Seamus was known as James. So it wasn't hard to make the leap that Phillip could be John.

List of Siblings.

Denis - born March 1853
Timothy - born July 1854
Eugene - born ?
Mary - born June 1858 (died young)
Johanna - born July 1860 (died young)
Cait (Catherine) - born March 1862
Ellen - born May 1867
Mary #2 - born January 1869
Philip and Seamus(James) - born April 1872 (twins)
Johanna #2 - born January 1874


Ireland Births and Baptisms, 1620 - 1881.

Helena Sullivan. Born July 7, 1867 at 66, Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Father Owen Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary.

Mary Sullivan. Born January 29, 1869 in Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Christening place 76, Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Father Owen Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary

James Sullivan. Born April 6, 1872 in Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Christening place Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Father Eugene Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary.

John Sullivan. Born April 6, 1872 in Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Father Eugene Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary.

Johanna Sullivan. Born January 14, 1874 in Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Father Owen Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary.



Ireland Births and Baptisms.

John Sullivan. Born April 6, 1872 in Cork, Ireland. Father Eugene Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary.

James Sullivan. April 6, 1872 in Cork, Ireland. Father Eugene Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary.

Bridget Sullivan. Born March 28, 1864 at 76, Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Father Owen Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary.

Wow, very impressive list, KG! Please correct me if I’m wrong; is the last entry here is our Bridget? You found her actual date of birth?

[twinsrwe]

Of the two Bridget photographs supplied by Dianna Porter in 1996, the one showing Bridget in best visiting-dress, standing with a man, is inscribed 'Aunt B...'

But in any image I've seen online, the rest of the script is excluded. There follows an '&' but below, where we might hope to see the gentleman named, there's only the beginning of a title. It may read 'Uncle' but not very plausibly. And then below that, of the next word there's only a capital letter visible. This shows how excised is the inscription - and indeed the overall image carries a spatial suggestion of being cropped. (If the original snap had another person on the left, one wouldn't be surprised.)

This woman is of course evidently 'Our Bridget'. One and the same with her photograph of 1886-7. But what happens to the words to potentially identify the man - and his relation to Bridget?

It's being stated that this photograph is of Bridget and her husband. Presumably then, the inky notation says it is Mr Bridget Sullivan.

So. Has anyone read the script in full?

Oh, am I allowed to post the image or is there copyright doo-da...

As far as I know, those pictures do not have a copyright; you can find them via the internet. I’ll post them here (Click on images to enlarge):

bs2.jpg

bs1.jpg

[KGDevil]

I used the information as a whole to narrow down this Bridget Sullivan, such as the information from the sibling's place of birth, how the parents names are listed, and the fact that the birth dates coincide. For James and John they coincide in two sets of records. I'm as confident as I can be that this is our Bridget.

[InterestedReader]

Twins:
"As far as I know, those pictures do not have a copyright; you can find them via the internet. I’ll post them here"



Oh thank-you!
Never sure of the protocol.

Bridget's photographs are not without their clues. Her earliest one in especial☺.

[InterestedReader]

Bridget Sullivan. Born March 28, 1864 at 76, Kilcatherine, Cork, Ireland. Father Owen Sullivan. Mother Margaret Leary.

Hi, Mr Devil.

So how does this match up to the 1864-born Bridget, whom i think O'Dwyer favoured, but frankly I get seriously lost among the Bridgets. Irishlass78 found a baptism record, and you can read about it on this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5759

and see the baptism record itself, here:
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls0 ... 3/mode/1up

These two would be irreconcilable? Quite different places, i think. But the Billerough Bridget, her immigration date, her Leary mother and general work record, all seemed very compelling.

Myself I favour an 1864 birth-year, or even earlier. It cannot be later. Bridget Sullivan has often been ascribed impossibly late birth-years.

[KGDevil]

I usually use other known family members to provide pieces of the puzzle if possible. I do not have access to O'Dwyers full research findings so I was going with the information posted by Naomi Farthing Sullivan. I usually start by working with the known living and work backward. Then try to find the information that is harder to duplicate within another family. I use that as an identifiable marker. My most identifiable marker was the set of twins born in April of 1872. James and John were born in April 1872 to Eugene Sullivan and Margaret Leary in Kilcatherine. I used the fact that the information for the other siblings coincided with what was given for Bridget's siblings also to narrow down this Bridget.

[irishlass78]

Hi KG:

Here's the link to Bridget's genealogy, as provided by O'Dwyer that appeared in the LBQ:

https://archive.org/stream/lizzieborden ... 9/mode/1up

Here are links to the entire article:

https://archive.org/stream/lizzieborden ... 7/mode/2up

https://archive.org/stream/lizzieborden ... 7/mode/2up

[InterestedReader]

I usually use other known family members to provide pieces of the puzzle if possible. I do not have access to O'Dwyers full research findings so I was going with the information posted by Naomi Farthing Sullivan. I usually start by working with the known living and work backward. Then try to find the information that is harder to duplicate within another family. I use that as an identifiable marker. My most identifiable marker was the set of twins born in April of 1872. James and John were born in April 1872 to Eugene Sullivan and Margaret Leary in Kilcatherine. I used the fact that the information for the other siblings coincided with what was given for Bridget's siblings also to narrow down this Bridget.

Oh this is admirable.
So Kilcatherine Bridget - and I'm so sorry if I missed this go past, i have looked back - Kilcatherine Bridget's Immigration year would be..?

The first Bridget Sullivan photograph is a remarkable document in many ways, and is never given the attention it deserves. It dates between 1886 and 1887 (as opposed to the loose assumption of somewhen around the crime) but we see a sturdy young woman in her 'twenties. Not a girl in her teens, as some birth-dates would necessitate. Also it's far from an Ellis Island image, and a rather affluent production. Given the poverty from which those Irish girls were escaping here on this side of the Atlantic, it must be of Bridget once in the United States.

[twinsrwe]

I used the information as a whole to narrow down this Bridget Sullivan, such as the information from the sibling's place of birth, how the parents names are listed, and the fact that the birth dates coincide. For James and John they coincide in two sets of records. I'm as confident as I can be that this is our Bridget.

Thank you, KG! I appreciate knowing how you came to your conclusions.

[twinsrwe]

Interested, you're welcome for the pics of Bridget and her husband.

[KGDevil]

Hi KG:

Here's the link to Bridget's genealogy, as provided by O'Dwyer that appeared in the LBQ:

https://archive.org/stream/lizzieborden ... 9/mode/1up

Here are links to the entire article:

https://archive.org/stream/lizzieborden ... 7/mode/2up

https://archive.org/stream/lizzieborden ... 7/mode/2up

Thank very much you for the links Irishlass.

[KGDevil]

Sorry, thank you very much for the links Irishlass. Typing on the run and my autocorrect do not mix.

[violette]

Maybe Bridget's father Eugene had died and her mother remarried Owen Sullivan? Leaving Bridget with half siblings.

Thanks for the info KGDevil. I think that this could very well be our Bridget!

[InterestedReader]

In Irish documentation Eugene and Owen are commonly interchangeable. Eoghan too. I think it's because in Irish they all correspond to John. So Eugene and Owen Sullivan would be the same chap.

I've no experience in genealogy but on my own foray into the Bridget Muddle, looking at the records, it seemed to me that in marrying John Sullivan, and by the record of marriage everywhere cited, Anaconda Bridget will be marrying her own brother. They'd share the same parents - Eugene Sullivan and Margaret Leary. I may just have been too perplexed to follow the plot but I did keep running into that problem. And marrying one's brother is a thing proscribed by Church and social mores for some time now.

However, once I've emerged from Marriage Records and begin reading the licence cited as sourced from publications, Mr John M. Sullivan, the groom, has a John Sullivan for his father. Oh dear. I'm sure that father was a Eugene when I last looked at the records!

I would opt for the Bordens' Bridget being the Bridget Sullivan present - 'attendant' - at one of these reported marriages. Her brother's, and to another Bridget. Thus the Bordens' Bridget is nowadays being confused with her own sister-in-law - a Bridget ten years her junior.

But I'm totally lost among so many options. Rebello, it seems, has a John M. Sullivan with Eugene Sullivan and Margaret Leary as his parents. In the text. Then publishes (is this correct, Twins? It's Rebello?) an image of a marriage licence with Daniel and Julia Sullivan for the groom's parents.

That 1905 licence has a Bridget bride of 35 and of one thing I am certain. The Bordens' Bridget wasn't born in 1870. Anyone with professional costume expertise can date those photographs. An 1870 birth-date for their subject is way out of kilter not only with when the photos were taken but also the age of the woman we see. Bridget was not 35 in 1905. Nowhere near.

Billerough and Kilcatherine aren't too far apart, on that Cork coastline; both seem to have been crawling with Sullivans and Learys. KGDevil, I see the genius in your method of working backwards up the ancestry☺

In doing so, what do you find for the marriage problem?

[InterestedReader]

Irish Lass, Don't know if you've seen it likewise - But slogging through the 1900 Census I noticed a Reed couple in Silver Bow who name their newborn Milton. Milton Reed I take to be more a Fall River notable so I wondered if there was family connection, like transplanted offspring - but couldn't find any. You know what you're doing though, so it might be worth a look. Just do Milton Reed and Silver Bow.
Cheers,
Wendy

[twinsrwe]

... I would opt for the Bordens' Bridget being the Bridget Sullivan present - 'attendant' - at one of these reported marriages. Her brother's, and to another Bridget. Thus the Bordens' Bridget is nowadays being confused with her own sister-in-law - a Bridget ten years her junior.

But I'm totally lost among so many options. Rebello, it seems, has a John M. Sullivan with Eugene Sullivan and Margaret Leary as his parents. In the text. Then publishes (is this correct, Twins? It's Rebello?) an image of a marriage licence with Daniel and Julia Sullivan for the groom's parents. ...

You are partially correct.

Rebello, page 66:

It is believed Bridget Sullivan was in Anaconda, Montana, by 1897. She was found to be a resident in Anaconda, working as a domestic. A marriage certificate dated 1905, was issued to John M. Sullivan and Bridget Sullivan. The marriage took place on June 21, 1905, at St. Paul's Church by Father J.M. O' Brien. Attendants for the newlyweds were Peter J. Sullivan and another woman named Bridget Sullivan who was a domestic for Judge George B. Winston. Mr. John Sullivan was born in Ireland (1868 as engraved on his headstone and the 1920 Federal Census listed his age as 52) and was the son of James and Margaret ( Leary) Sullivan. He came to the United States in 1888 and became a citizen in 1896. (1920 Federal Census) He was listed in the Anaconda City Directory in 1896. John Sullivan was a laborer, puncher and converter, furnace man, smeleterman and later a helper for the Anaconda Copper Mining Company. After their marriage, Bridget continued to work as a domestic. The Sullivans resided at various locations while in Anaconda. They purchased a home on Alder Street in 1915. Mr. Sullivan died at St. Ann's Hospital, March 12, 1939. He had been a resident of Anaconda for fifty years. He was buried at Mount Olivet Cemetery in Anaconda.

The photo of the Marriage Certificate and Record were posted on Aug 01, 2011 by Allen, a former member of the forum, in the thread titled, Bridget Sullivan. Here is a link to that thread: http://tinyurl.com/ocr9nl5

Allen also questioned if John M. Sullivan may have been our Bridget’s brother. (Allen is also the one who posted the above paragraph of the Anaconda, Montana: Copper Smelting Boom Town on the Western Frontier, by Patrick F. Morris.) Here is the link to the topic titled, Opinions on the recent Hatchet articles, where Allen posted her thoughts regarding John being Bridget’s brother and the paragraph in the Anaconda, Montana: Copper Smelting Boom Town on the Western Frontier, by Patrick F. Morris. Here is the link to that topic thread: http://tinyurl.com/gmkkkle

[irishlass78]

by KGDevil » Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:59 pm

Sorry, thank you very much for the links Irishlass. Typing on the run and my autocorrect do not mix.

You're very welcome, KG. Hope it helps.

[irishlass78]

by InterestedReader » Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:30 pm

Irish Lass, Don't know if you've seen it likewise - But slogging through the 1900 Census I noticed a Reed couple in Silver Bow who name their newborn Milton. Milton Reed I take to be more a Fall River notable so I wondered if there was family connection, like transplanted offspring - but couldn't find any. You know what you're doing though, so it might be worth a look. Just do Milton Reed and Silver Bow.
Cheers,
Wendy

Hi Wendy!

Thank you for posting that info...It's amazing how often that name turns up in relation to Bridget! I don't believe these Reeds are related to the Milton Reed of Fall River, however. Milton Reed never married and I believe his siblings either died young or had no offspring.

[InterestedReader]

Oh, it was Allen first posting the image. Apologies. It makes a refreshing change from the same piece of Rebello.
And thanks for the links. I did read that material but haven't been concentrating on Bridget. When I did have a blitz on Bridget in official records alone, I just kept running into the same problem of that husband having to be her brother, but perhaps I was working from an erroneous paradigm. (And that stuff's on my tablet & I'm confined to android so I relinquish Bridget's hubby to the real genealogists here, Irish Lass and KGDevil.)

As a newcomer to the case, I've been reading the Prelim and full Trial transcripts, scrupulously, in a kind of experiment to exclude all received ideas if possible. (It's probably a bit easier here in Britain, to come to it without pre-formed assumptions - the case hasn't the notoriety, it doesn't occupy a place in the national consciousnesses.)
Also scouring through Census, Birth, Marriage & Death records, trying to get an idea of who all these people were, the satellite community to the crime. (I began when recovering from surgery, to focus the mind on something else, and although the genealogy is frightful for someone who's never done it before, the social structure of Massachusetts, to a British person, is quite fascinating.) Also, the Sourcebook, for contemporary journalism, and for kicks & giggles, the Victoria Lincoln.

And I must say, although everywhere deplored, that woman's book and its assertions are everywhere to be descried! They creep and colour all over the place. It's often the way; some real writing ability will persuade and compel far more indelibly than conscientious research offered by dry, gauche, or unskilled conveyance. The Lincoln book is an appetising read but personally I found her 'Fall River Insider' tactic less than convincing, and weirdly suprematist... You know, the constant strain of 'I am a Fall River Insider; no Outsider can hope to know...' She uses it to cover ignorance and sparse research and had she been the Insider or if indeed there were such a peculiar thing as this elitist privilege of perspective, she wouldn't be banging the drum so noisily. But yes, there's a fictionalised Bridget in a book Lincoln brushed up from press-cuttings, and that Bridget is still afoot today, throwing spanners in the works. Minnie, Mollie, Anaconda-Bridget wanting to read about herself at the library - it all makes its first appearance in Lincoln. (At least, Lincoln herself advertises it as newfound material.)

Bridget was fictionalised from the word go, by the avid and desperate press-reports, and that's so much a part of the problem. She'd often be portrayed as a hapless young colleen so as to provide the sympathetic element. And there began the habit, the idea, of a Bridget Sullivan much younger, more youthful, than her true age. As a consequence perhaps, researchers have focused on the younger Bridgets in official records.

We do have the contemporary press to thank, though, for one certainty. Our first-known photograph of the Bordens' Bridget Sullivan is her, because it was used by the press. The Bridget Sullivan of this photograph - 1886-1887 - can not be born in 1875. So the woman who dies in Butte in 1948 is either the wrong Bridget or a right Bridget who manages to lie egregiously about her age. The two Dianna Porter photographs confirm this further. They too are almost as easy to date but show a woman much at odds with that 1875 birth-year. She's just not in her thirties for the one, or her forties for the other. And no amount of twitter about hard work or lack of sunscreen will get her there.

My own first impression of Bridget's character based solely on her testimony was of a woman more mature in character and far more self-possessed, than Lizzie Borden. I'll see how that initial impression develops! But I won't be surprised if the real Bridget, factual and historical, turns out to be Lizzie's coeval. There's some serious life-skills on display when Bridget takes the stand; even after being barracked for hours she can turn on a sixpence, unfatigued, to right an inference, to save her own skin. By contrast when Lizzie Borden passes out (swoons, faints, what you will) and is brusquely told by a male authority-figure to secure her smelling-salts - automatically, she does so. In the absence of much verifiable, valuable intelligence on Lizzie Borden's psychology - Isn't this telling? Automatically she reaches into her pocket, she obeys. Where's the mendacity, where's the surliness, the cunning? Most of us would think it wise to do nothing, if semi-conscious or feigning to be unconscious, beyond the reach of barked instructions...

Does everyone know the press illustration of Bridget en route to court along with the 'ladies', as depicted by some budding Sem. I wish I had it on my phone here. But isn't she winsome? Winsome, willowy, pert & pretty her profile, hair in opulent pompadour, nicely turned-out & modishly too save for the endearing workboots - just darling...

Here's two press-images which begin that prettification:

brid2.jpg

sullivan2.jpg

And here - exceptionally - is Bridget captured by a harder-edged sketch - one certainly closer to her real appearance:

_20160201_094113.JPG

The first two are worked from that cabinet photograph now six or seven years' out-of- date. The next, the unusual one, is up-to-date - as is evident from dress & hair styles - and probably drawn from the life.

Press-coverage was generally tending to present readers with a young Bridget Sullivan. It's amusing too, how, despite the constant allusions to Lizzie's 'masculine' demeanour and brutishly 'masculine' physique, we don't hear and we don't see anything in the press about Bridget Sullivan's sturdy build. She was massy, hefty. Physically she'd easily be the strongest person in that house, Morse included. The breadth of her wrists is remarkable - as must have been their strength.

_20160202_175930.JPG

[twinsrwe]

Interested, there is no need to apologize; I’m just glad you asked about the marriage licence image and Rebello’s statement. I’m also glad I could easily clarify that information for you, and you’re welcome for the links. Reading the Preliminary and Trial transcripts are a great step in understanding who said what, etc. It’s also good to form you own opinions.

Ah, yes, Victoria Lincoln book. You may want to check out these links on her book (Be sure to open the attachment in Tracy’s first post.):

http://tinyurl.com/gtt369p

http://tinyurl.com/zwws9ge

This is the first time I have heard of the press illustration of Bridget en route to court along with the 'ladies'; as far as I know Bridget was accompanied to court by her attorney, James T. Cummings. The only other photo of Bridget that I am aware of is this one, and of course it isn’t an illustration (Click on image to enlarge.):

bridget4.jpg

[InterestedReader]

This is the first time I have heard of the press illustration of Bridget en route to court along with the 'ladies'; as far as I know Bridget was accompanied to court by her attorney, James T. Cummings.

It's on my iPad. I've spent simply hours on a phone endeavouring to find it via Google Image, and searched this Forum also! I'm having my iPad brought so as to post the illustration, later this morning. I assumed the drawing to be well-known - though no-one seems to be using it anywhere. It's simply marvellous, and one of the better examples of draughtmanship used by the press during the trial.

It shows a troupe of the 'ladies' in procession - doubtless in the figurative sense rather than any actual march into court! The artwork is rather satiric, by a talented caricaturist. But what's so fascinating is the way some are prettified into genteel maidens, and others are uglified. There's Alice Russell, Dr Kelly's wife, Mrs Holmes I think from memory, Bridget Sullivan, one or two others, and the most astonishingly cruel caricature of Adelaide Churchill. She's an orangutan. She's hulking and dark-skinned, with features so deformed it looks like some hideous racialist comment. Odd, because in the photo one everywhere sees of Adelaide Churchill, she strikes me as rather beautiful.

Yes, Bridget's first photograph is the one I've been discussing.

[InterestedReader]

Here we go. Needs clicking for their full glory.

image.jpg

Phoebe Bowen don't come out of it too well either.

Now the point was, just look at how Bridget is being portrayed.

image.jpg

And once again, from the same year, this more realistic exception to the trend of a slender, youthful, sympathetic Bridget:

[InterestedReader]

(Be sure to open the attachment in Tracy’s first post.):

http://tinyurl.com/gtt369p

Well done indeed, by Tracy. I thoroughly agree with her.

Lincoln is careless or downright carefree with factual evidence yet the ghost of 'yellow journalism' is everywhere - Lincoln sure went through the clippings.
Her insistence on a privileged perspective is just irritating. ('The Lizzie I Remember' claim is there for the book-jacket.) 'We up on the hill....' - all that, all that exclusivity at times excluding even the reader. It smacks of fiction. And call me a snobby Brit but classifying Lizzie's Borden blood as 'aristocracy' is a bit much. They're a generation away from skilled labourers. (Massachusetts folk may well hold their lineage tight and proud but we Brits invented class-distinction and vile snobbery so... none of her Lizzie-protected-by-the-elite theme was really washing with me.)

The prosecution was hotly pursuing a scheme to duplicate dresses with fabric bought in New Bedford. Lincoln's stance - only she can sort out the dress conundrum. Because she's a woman. With brilliant aperçus when it comes to fabric.

Above all it's Lincoln's brazening attempt to settle the matter with an epileptoid fugue which is poor. She doesn't understand the first thing about 'temporal lobe epilepsy', she's merely flourishing the term, pretty much - there's even some woolly likening of TLE to 'hypnosis'. The busy 'seizure' Lincoln engineers into the crime would be a medical anomaly, certainly, if not an impossibility. Only Lizzie's reported sense of foreboding, the night before the crime, might be suggestive of the aura experienced in temporal lobe disorder. But both the onset and the full epileptoid attack are debilitating, not enabling. So had Lizzie suffered TLE she'd have trouble getting round to Alice Russell's.

And nevertheless. The idea of Lizzie somnambulating into a couple of hours' flesh-hacking while her displaced persona asserts its savagery, is like much else in the book - enticing. Almost cinematically enticing. Because the woman can write quite well, and set forth vignettes of plausible psychology. And my impression is - her ideas are everywhere, she's been hard to resist. So much of what I've read, touted as fact, is Lincoln - and that's useful to know. Ironic really, since I think she was using her skills to disguise her shallow knowledge. It's also interesting she comes to within a hair's breadth of suggesting incest, then fails. I wondered if she'd worked it and cut it, and wondered why.

Oh I've overlooked the one thing to most annoy & amuse all at once. For her crime-theory to work she needs a single missing clock-spring indispensable to its action: an Abby who cannot leave her house unaided. So Abby's weight becomes the reason. Yes at 14 stone Abby's unable to 'waddle' abroad from her door, ever. She's non-ambulatory, 'housebound' . Lincoln even states that if she hadn't weighed those 14 stone, Abby, she'd never have been killed.
I mean, seriously?

But I wolfed it down anyway, the book.
Sorry. Off-topic.

I just loved the line 'Bridget came to court looking a million dollars.'
It gave visions of Mae West in lace and ostrich-feathers drawling lewdly at the Judge.

[InterestedReader]

http://tinyurl.com/zwws9ge

Kat's findings:
When Victoria Lincoln was five her father was 'Superintendent in a Machine Shop'.
How 'high up on the Hill' did that get you?

[irishlass78]

We do have the contemporary press to thank, though, for one certainty. Our first-known photograph of the Bordens' Bridget Sullivan is her, because it was used by the press. The Bridget Sullivan of this photograph - 1886-1887 - can not be born in 1875. So the woman who dies in Butte in 1948 is either the wrong Bridget or a right Bridget who manages to lie egregiously about her age. The two Dianna Porter photographs confirm this further. They too are almost as easy to date but show a woman much at odds with that 1875 birth-year. She's just not in her thirties for the one, or her forties for the other. And no amount of twitter about hard work or lack of sunscreen will get her there.

Wendy, I'm in total agreement with you. I have doubts about the Anaconda Bridget and the Borden Bridget being one and the same because the dates simply do not add up.

I just love that "procession" illustration...priceless! Here are a couple of other illustrations of Bridget, apparently drawn from life. Both are from the Boston Post in August 1892:

[InterestedReader]

These are marvellous, I've not seen these before.
Is that busy woman to her right the poor stenographer?
To judge by the number of times Bridget's asked to repeat herself at the trial she needed an interpreter - they were having frightful trouble with her brogue. (Doesn't her "keys" get transcribed as "case" at one point?)

I've another of her standing in the witness-box buxom as a pouter pigeon, but can't find it

I just love that "procession" illustration...priceless!

It's hard to read but seems to be called THE NEW DAY.

As to Anaconda Bridget... people wouldn't dare lie about their birth-date on wills would they? It could scupper probate.

Also, just who was it, and when, first to state that Bridget Sullivan moved to Montana? Lincoln reports reading the information and then following the lead, but I can't remember her source. Was it yet another item she found in the press library? That was 1967. There are newspaper snippets from the 1950s, placing Bridget there.. But I never know just when and where the 'discovery' first appears.

[irishlass78]

hi Wendy:

I'm pretty certain that's the poor, overworked stenographer with her sheaf of papers!

Yes, apparently Bridget had a very thick brogue. I remember reading that she pronounced "key" as "kay."

Bridget as a "pouter pigeon?" Can't say I've seen that illustration anywhere!

I'm not sure about the legality of birth dates in regard to wills, but she would have had no definitive proof of it when the will was drawn up. (i.e., a birth certificate). If she claimed to be 69 in 1942, then her birth year would be 1873. We know that's impossible, based on Bridget's own testimony in regard to her age and immigration year.

[InterestedReader]

I'm not sure about the legality of birth dates in regard to wills, but she would have had no definitive proof of it when the will was drawn up. (i.e., a birth certificate). If she claimed to be 69 in 1942, then her birth year would be 1873. We know that's impossible, based on Bridget's own testimony in regard to her age and immigration year.

And equally, she'd have no birth-certificate when arriving in the States? I' ve read that very few of the Irish émigrés had them since Ireland in the nineteenth century just wasn't geared up with that kind of records system. Just baptismal records held by the Church. So, in the States, how did Immigration work with the Irish? Were they required to present some proof of age? I'm supposing that one's Immigration year is the thing one couldn't change, very much on Record - and perhaps the more significant date in identifying Bridget Sullivan - but how would she, or anyone else, prove her birth-year to a certainty at the time of the trial?

[irishlass78]

Also, just who was it, and when, first to state that Bridget Sullivan moved to Montana? Lincoln reports reading the information and then following the lead, but I can't remember her source. Was it yet another item she found in the press library? That was 1967. There are newspaper snippets from the 1950s, placing Bridget there.. But I never know just when and where the 'discovery' first appears.

I believe that Lincoln was referencing Edward Radin as the original source of that information. I've also been trying to discover Radin's source...I remember reading somewhere that he possibly got his information from Andrew Jenning's papers or journal? Hopefully someone can clarify for us.

What I found most perplexing about Anaconda Bridget (aside from the numerous date discrepancies) is that her own family in Montana knew next to nothing about her..or at least they knew as much as we do. For instance, in the widely circulated obituary of 1948 (posted on this board), her niece, Kate Moriarity, is quoted as saying her aunt "mentioned the Borden case." That's it. Nothing about what was "mentioned," to who it was mentioned, no details about her life in Anaconda or in Fall River.

Her great-niece by marriage said "she’d always heard stories about her great-aunt having known Lizzie Borden.
“It was always one of those things that was talked about,” Porter said. “My mother grew up never allowed to talk about it, but of course they did.” http://www.heraldnews.com/article/20120 ... 2/?Start=1

The Anaconda Bridget is also described as "stern," "even mean" and "said to have no sense of humor." Most accounts of the Borden Bridget depict her as an amiable person with an excellent reputation.

Lastly, another relative, Naomi Farthing, posted on numerous genealogy boards seeking information on Bridget. I found the last paragraph of her post pretty telling...possible doubt as to Bridget's identity?

I am searching for information about my husband's great aunt, Bridget Sullivan, who may have been maid for the Andrew Borden family of Fall River, Bristol Co. MA at the time of the murders of Andrew and Abby Borden Aug 4, 1892.

Our Bridget Sullivan was born Mar 1864, one of 12 children born to Owen(Eugene) O'Sullivan and Margaret O'Leary in Co. Cork, Ireland. She emigrated to the United States at the age of 19 years (abt. 1883/85), worked in Fall River, MA for 2 1/2 years and may have had contact with a cousin, Patrick Harrington, who lived there. She apparently left Fall River soon after the trial and may have returned to Ireland for a while.

I don't know when she returned to the U.S. but she moved circa 1896 to Anaconda, MT where in 1905 she married a smelterman, John M. Sullivan and resided there until after his death in 1939. She died Mar. 25, 1948 in Butte, MT.

Much has been researched and written about the Borden murders and Bridget's connection; however, she apparently took any knowledge of the event to her grave. I hope to find an actual family connection or be able to discount her connection with the crime. Thank you. Naomi


Oh Bridget, whoever you are! My poor head is spinning!!!!