The Mystery of the Pear Tree

This the place to have frank, but cordial, discussions of the Lizzie Borden case

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twinsrwe
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Re: The Mystery of the Pear Tree

Post by twinsrwe »

KGDevil wrote:Twins, I own an antique wash stand with a pitcher and basin sitting on top which is similar to the first one pictured. There is also a smaller bowl and basin kept underneath. But I must say I wasn't sure of how the water was emptied, or what role a slop pail may have played.
So, you not only have a pitcher and basin, but the stand too! Very nice. The pitcher and basin in the first picture I posted is plain, but elegant, isn't it?

I'm not sure were the idea came from that the contents of Andrew's slop pail was his human waste. We have no documentation that I am aware of indicating just what the contents of Andrew Borden's slop pail was.

Since Andrew was the only male in the household, it makes sense that he would shave and wash up in his room, and then dump the contents from his wash basin into a slop bucket to be disposed of in the back yard.
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Re: The Mystery of the Pear Tree

Post by KGDevil »

twinsrwe wrote:
KGDevil wrote:Twins, I own an antique wash stand with a pitcher and basin sitting on top which is similar to the first one pictured. There is also a smaller bowl and basin kept underneath. But I must say I wasn't sure of how the water was emptied, or what role a slop pail may have played.
So, you not only have a pitcher and basin, but the stand too! Very nice. The pitcher and basin in the first picture I posted is plain, but elegant, isn't it?

I'm not sure were the idea came from that the contents of Andrew's slop pail was his human waste. We have no documentation that I am aware of indicating just what the contents of Andrew Borden's slop pail was.

Since Andrew was the only male in the household, it makes sense that he would shave and wash up in his room, and then dump the contents from his wash basin into a slop bucket to be disposed of in the back yard.
Twins, I agree that the pieces are very elegant. The simplicity of them adds to the nostalgic feel and speaks of a simpler time.

It was customary for the members of most households to wash up in the privacy of their bedrooms. I imagine how Bridget felt trudging up to the third floor with water to bathe herself. Would Bridget, as a servant, have been allowed access to the watercloset? Where would she have emptied her chamber pot?
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
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twinsrwe
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Re: The Mystery of the Pear Tree

Post by twinsrwe »

KGDevil wrote:... It was customary for the members of most households to wash up in the privacy of their bedrooms. I imagine how Bridget felt trudging up to the third floor with water to bathe herself. Would Bridget, as a servant, have been allowed access to the watercloset? Where would she have emptied her chamber pot?
Good questions, KG! Most likely Bridget didn't mind having to go up to the third floor to wash up. Wouldn't she have carried water up to her room in her pitcher? Of source walking up steps when wearing a floor length dress and carrying a pitcher of water, may have been a bit of a challenge, but what other chose did she have?

We don't have any documentation of Bridget being allowed to use the water closet, or what she did with the contents of her slop pail. Your questions certainty makes one think.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
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Re: The Mystery of the Pear Tree

Post by SallyG »

One of my sons was up at the Adirondack house recently and I asked him to send me a few photos of the chamber pot sink on the second floor that I mentioned in an above post. I thought it would be interesting to see.
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twinsrwe
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Re: The Mystery of the Pear Tree

Post by twinsrwe »

SallyG, thank you for posting those pictures, The chamber pot and slop pail look so different from what I had pictured in my head! Very interesting! Also, please thank your son for taking and sending you these pictures.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: The Mystery of the Pear Tree

Post by SallyG »

well, it looks like the sink has been the resting place for a couple of watering cans for quite awhile...LOL!! I should have asked him to go up to the third floor attic section and get some photos of the old chamber pots, slop pails, water pitchers, etc. that are stored up there. The house is from 1830 so there is a goldmine of wonderful historic items!
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Re: The Mystery of the Pear Tree

Post by patsy »

So fascinating to see the pictures of the house and pear tree and all the chamber pots and even MB's icebox (Haaa). Thanks for sharing all of these.

I remember using the chamber pot at my grandmother's house and we did dump it into the outhouse in the mornings. We had to prime the pump and pump hard to get water started so we could rinse them out, so I'm kind of glad we rarely went there during the winters. And we did carry the wash basin and pitcher of water up to do our bathing. We started calling it sponge bathing at some time in my life. I've heard more crass terms for it lately.

It's hard to shake the fact of Morse's behavior after arriving at the house. Having seen so many different behaviors from so many in my lifetime I am not really surprised at anything anymore, so yeah MB's idea could be plausible.

Hadn't heard the tunnel story before or maybe I've forgotten it, but maybe there's a schematic somewhere that may show sewers or tunnels in the area and someday it will come to light. I do want to believe Troy's story because it could open a whole lot of new theories etc. and it's just so very interesting.
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Re: The Mystery of the Pear Tree

Post by WFordII »

    [quote=Curiousmind2014 post_id=95912 time=1469387972 user_id=6328
    I saw this post from 2016 and wondered how the writer came to such conclusions. There are no documents or testimony to suggest that Abby Borden was plain, homely, and friendless. In fact, she often visited her family and their children. When Lizzie told her father that Mrs. Borden received a note to come care for a sick neighbor, Andrew didn't seem surprised. So, Abby must have had some friends about town. Also, it's a persistent myth that Lizzie had red hair. In descriptions from the trial, Lizzie was described as having shiny chestnut colored hair.


    Nadzieja I totally agree with you. Houses in the highlands, or the hill were extremely pretty as compared to the setting of the second street. Add to that no electricity and no plumbing at the Borden house.

    It was a nightmare! Also, Lizzie had a very different personality than the rest of her family. Abby was a plain Jane homely lady with no friends. Andrew was a miser who loved money more than his life, and Emma remains an enigma, who probably was an introvert, and lacked interests in life. Lizzie of all, was a fiery redhead with a passion to live a life, interests, friends and pets. She probably could not stand company of her family.

    I personally believe that the cruise of circa 1890-91 for Lizzie probably became a turning point as she got a taste of life on the Hill. That may have triggered stealing, followed by a double axe murder.
    [/quote]
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    Re: The Mystery of the Pear Tree

    Post by camgarsky4 »

    Ford -- that is a pretty interesting thread. I agree with you that "Curiousmind" jumped to some unproven (or at least not based on any consensus) conclusions on the families personalities.

    I think Abby has been labelled as such due to so limited information telling us otherwise that folks just jump to their conclusions. AJB demonstrated on multiple occasions that he didn't love money 'more than his life'. He was certainly very conservative with his finances, but calling him a 'miser' goes over the top to me.

    That said, we don't know what or how AJB responded to Lizzie telling him about the note. All Bridget overheard of their conversation was Lizzie's side of the chat. None of Andrew's responses were heard per Bridget's testimony.
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    Re: The Mystery of the Pear Tree

    Post by WFordII »

    Yes, I totally agree. It's a pity we don't know more about the senior Bordens. It irritates me to see how many books and movies have cruelly portrayed them. It's as if they are implying that AJB and Abby had it coming. So sad...
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    Re: The Mystery of the Pear Tree

    Post by camgarsky4 »

    Regardless of societal norms, the fact is that Andrew provided free room and board, spending money and possibly travel/dress money. That doesn't account for his giving them a duplex for $1 and then buying it back for $5,000!

    If AJB had been allowed to die naturally, the sisters would still never have had to work a single day of their lives.

    There is nothing miserly about those facts. But perhaps that wasn't good enough for Lizzie and/or Emma.
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    Re: The Mystery of the Pear Tree

    Post by Kat »

    Curiousmind2014 wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:19 pm Nadzieja I totally agree with you. Houses in the highlands, or the hill were extremely pretty as compared to the setting of the second street. Add to that no electricity and no plumbing at the Borden house.

    It was a nightmare! Also, Lizzie had a very different personality than the rest of her family. Abby was a plain Jane homely lady with no friends. Andrew was a miser who loved money more than his life, and Emma remains an enigma, who probably was an introvert, and lacked interests in life. Lizzie of all, was a fiery redhead with a passion to live a life, interests, friends and pets. She probably could not stand company of her family.

    I personally believe that the cruise of circa 1890-91 for Lizzie probably became a turning point as she got a taste of life on the Hill. That may have triggered stealing, followed by a double axe murder.
    Mr. Ford’s response: I saw this post from 2016 and wondered how the writer came to such conclusions. There are no documents or testimony to suggest that Abby Borden was plain, homely, and friendless. In fact, she often visited her family and their children. When Lizzie told her father that Mrs. Borden received a note to come care for a sick neighbor, Andrew didn't seem surprised. So, Abby must have had some friends about town. Also, it's a persistent myth that Lizzie had red hair. In descriptions from the trial, Lizzie was described as having shiny chestnut colored hair.
    —————-
    [KK—In the box is the quote from curiousmind from page 1 of this topic. Sorry, Mr Ford that your intention to quote did not work out, and I hope no offense taken, that I hope to fix this for clarity. It sounded like you were saying things you didn’t agree with.]
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    Re: The Mystery of the Pear Tree

    Post by WFordII »

    Hello, KK! I'm sorry, but I don't understand your statement about my intention to quote didn't work out?
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    Re: The Mystery of the Pear Tree

    Post by Kat »

    If you see how the quoting turned out, your response was embedded within the quote you were quoting. My example showed how the original should look, in a beige box, and your response would be below that and separate. But it’s all in white, with the “quote” format at the end of what you wrote.
    Am I the only one who sees it that way at my end? :cat:
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    Re: The Mystery of the Pear Tree

    Post by camgarsky4 »

    I saw the same thing. Had to reread it a couple times to figure out when WFord was 'speaking' again.
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    Re: The Mystery of the Pear Tree

    Post by WFordII »

    Hello, Kat! Did I do something that messed up the formatting on a thread? I had just seen a post from the past and I respectfully offered my difference of opinion. Either way, it's so interesting that we can all come together on this forum and discuss one of America's most infamous cold case.
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