Lizzie at the back door; before or AFTER?

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NancyDrew
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Lizzie at the back door; before or AFTER?

Post by NancyDrew »

From the trail transcripts, Bridget's testimony (June 7, 1893)

"I didn't see Miss Lizzie anywhere about. I can't say exactly, but I think this was about nine o'clock. Then I cleaned off my stove, went in the dining room and sitting room, shut the windows I was going to wash, and went down cellar and got a pail for to take some water. I didn't see anybody in the rooms. I got a brush in the kitchen closet, filled my pail and took it outdoors.

As I was outside, Lizzie Borden appeared in the back entry, and says, "Maggie, are you going to wash the windows?" I says, "Yes." I says, "You needn't lock the door; I will be out around here; but you can lock it if you want to; I can get the water in the barn." I went to the barn to get the handle for the brush."

Was Abby already dead when Lizzie appeared at the back door and spoke to Bridget? Or was Lizzie making sure Bridget was going to be washing windows outside, and therefore OUT of the house so that she (Lizzie) could go upstairs and hack away at her stepmother..?

Thoughts?

Thanks!
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Re: Lizzie at the back door; before or AFTER?

Post by twinsrwe »

Assuming Lizzie is the killer.

According to Bridget's testimony, she had already filled her pail with water and had gone outside, but she still needed to get the handle for the brush from the barn, when Lizzie appeared at the back door. Bridget's testimony tells me that she was still in the process of gathering the equipment she would need in order to wash the windows.

Therefore, I think Abby was still alive at the time Lizzie appeared at the back door and spoke to Bridget. I think Lizzie was making sure that Bridget was gong to be outside washing those dang windows.
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Re: Lizzie at the back door; before or AFTER?

Post by Scott Crowder »

So Bridget has gone into the cellar - murder weapon? - and has a bucket with which to wash off the blood. Only Bridget is the witness to Mrs. Borden telling her to wash windows. For all we know, Bridget's already killed Abby.

If Lizzie killed Abby, where's the blood from the first murder? So Lizzie cleaned up TWICE? She had TWO dresses covered in blood that day? One thing is clear: there is water out in the barn. Bridget will be going out to the barn for water. Lizzie will need to clean up the blood and she obviously can't do it in the barn. How is that going to happen without running into Bridget nor being seen by Bridget through a window?

The second murder, Lizzie could well have gone to the barn as she said. Only it was to clean off all the blood. With Bridget in the house, it's the only way she could have done it. But by that same token, had she been in the barn and Bridget was the killer, how does Bridget clean up after?

I guess my question would be: is there a place for the murderer to shower inside the house and if so, where was this room located?
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Re: Lizzie at the back door; before or AFTER?

Post by NancyDrew »

No place to shower inside the house. No place to shower at all...these folks had to take baths and it would have been an ordeal.

Cleaning up the blood is a big part of the issue here...there was a pail that contained water and bloody rags near the kitchen. It was passed off as contained the by-products of menstruation, and therefor not investigated due to the sensibilities of the all-male Victorian-era police force.

What would Bridget's motive be for killing either Abby or Andrew? She wouldn't have come into any money, she'd be unemployed, and besides, being a good Irish Catholic girl, this would have meant the eternal damnation of her soul.

By all accounts, Bridget liked Mrs. Borden, and the feeling was mutual.

Lizzie was acquitted, in my opinion, not only because the all-male jury couldn't fathom her doing the murders, and not only because the judge pretty much TOLD them to find her 'not guilty' in his instructions, but also because the timeline is so hard to fathom.

It's been discussed here before that Lizzie would have had to go through "rage, calm, rage" in that order. The blows to Abby's head indicate intense feelings of hatred towards her. If Lizzie did it, then she would have had to summon up the sheer energy to straddle Abby's body and whack away at her skull for a LOT of blows. Then calm herself down and clean herself up enough so that when her father comes home, he isn't alarmed or alerted to anything suspicious by way of her demeanor or appearance....it's just like any other day, and Andrew is sufficiently satisfied that his home is okey-dokey enough to lay down on that shiny horse-hair sofa to rest for a bit.

Then, again, assuming Lizzie as the guilty party, she must:

1. Get behind Andrew
2. Hack his brains and face, cutting his eyeball in two (that detail has always seemed particularly gruesome to me.)
3. Clean away the blood from her hands, face, hair, and perform whatever voodoo she had to in order for her clothes NOT to be covered in any spatter or spray.
4. Sound the alarm (calling Bridget)

Every witness who saw Lizzie right after Andrew's body was seen testified she didn't have any blood visibly on her. Her hands were lily-white clean. Her dress was unremarkable enough that no one could agree even on what it looked like. So she was either extremely adept at cleaning herself up in RECORD time, or she just got very lucky and the murder didn't cover her in gore. It's very difficult to imagine that scenario.
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Re: Lizzie at the back door; before or AFTER?

Post by Scott Crowder »

I agree, it's almost impossible for Lizzie to have done it and not be covered in blood. Bridget, on the other hand, goes up to her room where she could have hidden her bloody clothes and changed into something else. But again, where to wash off the blood on her hands, face or in her hair?

They did their laundry in the cellar. So there must have been a source of water there correct? And Morse said the cellar door was open when he arrived later. Could someone have cleaned up in the cellar?

Oh, and don't the blood spatter patterns indicate that the killer was in front, not behind Andrew?

But the key thing that incriminates Bridget, in my mind, is that when Lizzie insisted they look for Mrs. Borden upstairs, why did Bridget lead Mrs. Churchill upstairs to the guest room? Why wouldn't she lead Mrs. Churchill up the back stairs to Mrs. Bordens room? It would seem to be where you'd look first, wouldn't it? And it also meant not having to cross the room with the dead body. It seems as if Bridget already knew where to go find Mrs. Borden.
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Re: Lizzie at the back door; before or AFTER?

Post by InterestedReader »

Bridget had been up the back stairs already, to get shrouding-sheets, hadn't she? She goes when Bowen requests something to cover Andrew Borden's body. I think that's the order of events, though it's all so tricksy I might be misremembering. She goes up the back stairs for the linen (though to which room I can't recall) and comes down with two sheets for the one first corpse - a thing some people have found suspect! but there you are, perhaps she just wanted him covered good. She had to use keys even to go get sheets, so to be fair, it's reasonable for Bridget to think the rear sector of the house is corpse-free.
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Re: Lizzie at the back door; before or AFTER?

Post by InterestedReader »

Yes, here it is in the Witness Statements, page 12:

'When the Doctor returned, he asked for a sheet. Bridget Sullivan, the work girl, was afraid to go up stairs alone, so I went with her. Lizzie said we would find the sheets in the dressing room, which is off of Mrs, Borden’s room. I think we waited for a key to Mrs. Borden’s room, and I think Dr. Bowen went into the sitting room to get it. If I am not mistaken, he first brought out a bunch, but the one wanted was not among them; so he went in again, and returned with a single key. We then went up stairs, and Bridget asked me if two would be enough. I said I think so, one will cover a person. But we brought down two, and gave them to Dr. Bowen.'

Mrs. Churchill, her statement of August the 8th.

Also, according to Lizzie and Bridget's versions both, I believe, Bridget's initial impulse was to go find Abby Borden at the Whitehead house.
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