A visiual timeline

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Scott Crowder
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A visiual timeline

Post by Scott Crowder »

Okay, if everyone would kindly refrain from posting until I'm finished, which may take a couple of weeks. I can do a little at a time, but it is rather time consuming. If someone sees a mistake and feels they must point it out before I'm finished, please feel free to PM me. I'd rather make a correction at the time then have to go back and fix things that might domino later.

You will notice darkened areas and light areas inside the house. These represent the line of sight of those present. If several people are present, it overlaps all their lines of sight. If you want to know what a particular person could see at that time, PM me and I'll insert a visual with just their line of sight indicated.

Here's the first visual.

6:00-6:30 John Morse and Bridget come downstairs. I put her in front of the stove, him in the Sitting Room.

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Testimony:

6:00 to 7:00 Morse: I got up about six, dressed and went down. I did not enter that room again before I left the house. Lizzie's door was closed when I went down. The first person to come downstairs after me was Mr. Borden, and then Mrs. Borden. She came into the sitting room, where I remained until breakfast. Mr. and Mrs. Borden ate with me about seven

6:15 Bridget: Next morning I felt a dull headache as I got up. I came down at 6:15, went down cellar for wood, started my fire and went down again for coal. Then I unlocked the back door, took in the milk and put out a pan for the ice man, and a pitcher with some water in it. When I went in again, I hooked the screen door. I worked in the kitchen and dining room, getting breakfast, and didn't go in any other rooms.
Last edited by Scott Crowder on Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
Scott Crowder
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by Scott Crowder »

6:30

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6:30 Bridget: Mrs. Borden was the first one I see that morning; she gave me orders about breakfast; it was about half-past six.
Scott Crowder
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by Scott Crowder »

6:35 - 7:00

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6:35 Bridget: Mr. Borden came down in about five minutes; he went into the sitting room and put the key of his bedroom on the shelf. He kept it there. He then came out into the kitchen, put on a dressing coat and went outdoors with a slop pail he had brought downstairs. The screen door was locked until he went out. I was in the kitchen; the windows of the kitchen look out into the back yard. Mr. Borden emptied the slop pail; then he unlocked the barn door and went into the barn. Then he went to the pear tree, picked up a basket of pears and brought them into the house. He washed up in the kitchen and went in to breakfast. When I put the breakfast on the table I saw Mr. Morse. For breakfast there was some mutton, some broth and johnnycakes, coffee and cookies. The broth was mutton broth.
Scott Crowder
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by Scott Crowder »

7:00-7:30 The Bordens eat breakfast with John Morse

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7:00 - 7:30 Morse, Andrew and Abby eat breakfast. Morse: We were about half an hour at breakfast; all three partook of the breakfast and arose from the table together. Mr. Borden went into the sitting room with me.

Bridget: After they had their breakfast, I ate mine and commenced to clear things up.
Scott Crowder
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by Scott Crowder »

7:30-8:30

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7:30-8:25 or 8:30 Morse: Mrs. Borden was in and out of that room. She was dusting with a feather duster. After that-some fifteen minutes before I went away-she went into the front hall.

Now we have our first problem. What is Bridget doing this entire time. Last we saw her, she served the Bordens at 7 and then ate. Afterwards, she cleaned up. But it's now been an entire hour since then. Mrs. Borden, who has been in and out of all the rooms, could easily have told Bridget to clean the windows.

This is where Bridget's timeline gets muddy. And Lizzie hasn't even shown up yet to muddy it more!
Scott Crowder
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by Scott Crowder »

8:30-8:45

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Sometime in here, give or take 5 minutes per Morse' testimony, Mrs. Borden was in the Front hall.

Note that when we get to Bridgets testimony she's STILL doing dishes a full hour and 15 minutes after breakfast ended. Unless, of course, Mrs. Borden already told her to start on cleaning the windows. Which makes sense since Mrs. Borden was dusting and would have seen how dirty the windows were and probably put Bridget right on that soon as she finished cleaning up from breakfast.
Scott Crowder
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Re: A visiual timeline

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8:40 or 8:45

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8:40 or 8:45 Morse: I left the house fifteen or twenty minutes before nine. I left by the rear door-the screen door. Mr. Borden came to the door with me. I saw Bridget in the kitchen as I went out. I unhooked the door, and Mr. Borden hooked it after me.

Bridget: Then I see Mr. Borden and Mr. Morse going out by the back door. Mr. Borden let him out, came to the sink and cleaned his teeth at the sink, and took a big bowlful of water and took it up to his room. First he took the key off the shelf in the sitting room.
Scott Crowder
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by Scott Crowder »

8:45-9:00

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8:45-9:00 Bridget: Five minutes later Miss Lizzie came through to the kitchen. I was washing the dishes and I asked her what did she want for breakfast. She said she didn't know as she wanted any breakfast, but she guessed she would have something, she guessed she would have some coffee and cookies. She got some coffee, and she was preparing to sit down at the kitchen table I went out in the back yard. I had a sick headache and I was sick to my stomach. I went out to vomit, and I stayed ten or fifteen minutes.

Lizzie: Q. Tell us again what time you came downstairs.
A. It was a little before nine, I should say. About quarter. I don't know sure.
Q. Where was your father when you came down Thursday morning?
A. Sitting in the sitting room in his large chair, reading the Providence Journal.
Q. Where was your mother? Do you prefer me to call her Mrs. Borden?
A. I had as soon you call her mother. She was in the dining room with a feather duster dusting.
Q. When she dusted, did she wear something over her head?
A. Sometimes when she swept, but not when dusting.
Q. Where was Maggie?
A. Just came in the back door with the long pole, brush and put the brush on the handle. and getting her pail of water. She was going to wash the windows around the house. She said Mrs. Borden wanted her to.

Q. Did you get your breakfast that morning?
A. I did not eat any breakfast. I did not feel as though I wanted any.
Q. Did you get any breakfast that morning?
A. I don't know whether I ate half a banana. I don't think I did.
Q. You drank no tea or coffee that morning?
A. No sir.
Q. And ate no cookies?
A. I don't know whether I did or not. We had some molasses cookies. I don't know whether I ate any that morning or not.
Q. Were the breakfast things put away when you got down?
A. Everything except the coffee pot. I'm not sure whether that was on the stove or not.


So who is telling the truth? Bridget, who claims it took her half the morning just to clean a few dishes or Lizzie, who says Bridget had already been told to clean the windows and had put everything away? Will this discrepancy matter later on?

That's all I have done so far. Hopefully sometime soon I'll be able to post up more.
Scott Crowder
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by Scott Crowder »

9:00 - 9:15

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Bridget:
When I came back, I hooked the screen door again. I didn't see Mr. Borden after he went up to his room. I finished my dishes and took them in the dining room. Mrs. Borden was there; she was dusting the door between the sitting room and dining room. She had no covering on her hair. She said she wanted the windows washed, inside and outside both; she said they are awful dirty.

After that I didn't see Mrs. Borden any more until I found her dead upstairs.

I didn't see Miss Lizzie anywhere about. I can't say exactly, but I think this was about nine o'clock. Then I cleaned off my stove, went in the dining room and sitting room, shut the windows I was going to wash, and went down cellar and got a pail for to take some water. I didn't see anybody in the rooms. I got a brush in the kitchen closet, filled my pail and took it outdoors.

As I was outside, Lizzie Borden appeared in the back entry, and says, "Maggie, are you going to wash the windows?" I says, "Yes." I says, "You needn't lock the door; I will be out around here; but you can lock it if you want to; I can get the water in the barn." I went to the barn to get the handle for the brush.

First I washed the sitting-room windows-on the south side of the house-the Kelly side. This was away from the screen door. Before I started washing, Mrs. Kelly's girl appeared and I was talking to her at the fence.

Lizzie:
What was the next thing that happened after you got down?
A. Maggie went out of doors to wash the windows and father came out into the kitchen and said he did not know whether he would go down to the post office or not. And then I sprinkled some handkerchiefs to iron.
Q. Tell us again what time you came downstairs.
A. It was a little before nine, I should say. About quarter. I don't know sure.
Q. Did your father go down town?
A. He went down later.
Q. What time did he start away?
A. I don't know.
Q. What were you doing when he started away?
A. I was in the dining room, I think. Yes, I had just commenced, I think, to iron.
Q. It may seem a foolish question. How much of an ironing did you have?
A. I only had about eight or ten of my best handkerchiefs.
Q. Did you let your father out?
A. No sir, he went out himself.
Q. Did you fasten the door after him?
A. No sir.
Q. Did Maggie?
A. I don't know. When she went upstairs, she always locked the door. She had charge of the back door.
Q. Did she go out after a brush before your father went away?
A. I think so.
Q. Did you say anything to Maggie?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you say anything about washing the windows?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you speak to her?
A. I think I told her I did not want any breakfast.
Q. You do not remember of talking about washing the windows?
A. I don't remember whether I did or not. I don't remember it. Yes, I remember. Yes, I asked her to shut the parlor blinds when she got through because the sun was so hot.
Q. About what time do you think your father went downtown?
A. I don't know. It must have been about nine o'clock. I don't know what time it was.
Q. You think at that time you had begun to iron your handkerchiefs?
A. Yes sir.

Q. When did you last see your mother?
A. I did not see her after when I went down in the morning and she was dusting the dining room.
Q. Where did you or she go then?
A. I don't know where she went. I know where I was.
Q. Did you or she leave the dining room first?
A I think I did. I left her in the dining room.
Q. You never saw her or heard her afterwards?
A. No sir.
Q. Did she say anything about making the bed?
A. She said she had been up and made the bed up fresh and had dusted the room and left it all in order. She was going to put some fresh pillow slips on the small pillows at the foot of the bed and was going to close the room because she was going to have company Monday and she wanted everything in order.
Q. How long would it take to put on the pillow slips?
A. About two minutes.
Q. How long to do the rest of the things?
A. She had done that when I came down.
Q. All that was left was what?
A. To put on the pillow slips.

Q. I want you to tell me just where you found the people when you got down that you did find there.
A. I found Mrs. Borden in the dinning room I found my father in the sitting room.
Q. And Maggie?
A. Maggie was coming in the back door with her pail and brush.
Q. Tell me what talk you had with your mother at the time?
A. She asked me how I felt. I said I felt better than I did Tuesday, but I did not want any breakfast. She asked me what I wanted for dinner I told her nothing. She said she was going out and would get the dinner. That is the last I saw her.
Q. Where did you go to then?
A. Into the kitchen.
Q. Where then?
A. Down cellar.

Q. Gone perhaps five minutes?
A. Perhaps not more than that. Possibly a little bit more.
Q. When you came back did you see your mother?
A. I did not. I supposed she had gone out.
Q. She did not tell you where she was going?
A. No sir.
Q. When you came back, was your father there?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What was he doing?
A. Reading the paper.


Q. You were always in the kitchen or dining room, excepting when you went upstairs?
A. I went upstairs before he went out.
Q. You mean you went up there to sew a button on?
A. I basted a piece of tape on.
Q. Do you remember you did not say that yesterday?
A. I don't think you asked me. I told you yesterday I went upstairs directly after I came up from down cellar, with the clean clothes.

Q. What was the next thing that happened after you got down?
A. Maggie went out of doors to wash the windows and father came out into the kitchen and said he did not know whether he would go down to the post office or not. And then I sprinkled some handkerchiefs to iron.

Q. So far as you know, you were alone in the lower part of the house a large portion of the time after your father went away and before he came back?
A. My father did not go away, I think, until somewhere about 10, as near as I can, remember. He was with me downstairs.
On the top margin of page 17 of Jennings notes, though, there's a notation that doesn't fit with the accompanying text. Jennings appears to have written: "L says while she was sprinkling her clothes in the kitchen she saw B in corner of yard near street talking with a girl - I think Dr. Kelly's girl".
So what do we have here? At 8:45 Lizzie has come downstairs. Abby is in the dining room dusting. Lizzie and her speak. Lizzie goes to the kitchen and down into the cellar. When she returns, Abby is gone. either upstairs, as I placed her on the map, or left the house, we don't know which. Her father is reading the Providence Journal. Lizzie goes upstairs - the guest room door is shut. Lizzie puts away the clothes and bastes a piece of tape on a button. About five minutes in the cellar, about five minutes upstairs. However, Lizzie has contradicted herself from earlier when she was under morphine. Under morphine she said she was coming down the stairs from basting her buttons when her father returned home, but almost immediately said she was mistaken, she was in the kitchen at that time. Under morphine, her father left around nine. Later, she says he left around 10.

Testimony contradicts now because that at this point both women say they went down to the cellar. If Bridget is believed, Mr. Borden had gone upstairs. Bridget was STILL putting away dishes a full two hours after breakfast and then she went down into the cellar to get water to do the windows. If Lizzie is to be believed, Bridget was done with dishes and had already been to the cellar and was outside doing windows when Lizzie went to the cellar. Lizzie states that when she sprinkled her hankies, her father left. Her lawyer notes that at this time she sees Bridget talking to the Lewis girl.

If we go by the timeline that Bridget prepares to wash the sitting room windows and then starts talking to the Lewis girl, then Andrew must have left around 9:15 or so. But if you tack on a few minutes for Lizzie to start up the fire, then maybe 9:20 or so.
Last edited by Scott Crowder on Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
Scott Crowder
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by Scott Crowder »

9:15-9:30

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Carrying over the testimony from the above post, we have Bridget off in the front corner of the yard at the time when Lizzie told her lawyer she was in the kitchen with her father as she sprinkled her hankies.

Lizzie:
Q. What was the next thing that happened after you got down?
A. Maggie went out of doors to wash the windows and father came out into the kitchen and said he did not know whether he would go down to the post office or not. And then I sprinkled some handkerchiefs to iron.
If Lizzie is to be believed, she has already gone upstairs and basted her buttons and she's stated that at this time the door was shut to the guest room. Where is Abby? No way she kills Abby with her father still home, but where IS Abby? Unless she left.

Bridget, meanwhile, takes a stab at making it seem that no one could have left without her seeing.
Q. They could; no trouble at all. When you were talking with Mrs. Kelly's girl, the field was pretty clear, wasn't it? That is, there wasn't much in the way; you stood, back to the Borden house, talking with the Kelly girl over the fence?
A. Yes sir, I was.
Q. And you could not then see-as you stood you could not see the front gate or the side gate or the side walk?
A. I think I could see the front gate; I am not sure.
Q. You could if you looked?
A. Yes sir.
Q. But if you were talking off that way and the front door was down there, you could not see it, could you?
A. No sir.
Last edited by Scott Crowder on Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:18 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by Scott Crowder »

What we have right now is if Lizzie is lying, then when at some point unknown exactly, but after Bridget went outside and talked to the Lewis girl, Mr. Borden left. Then Lizzie went to the cellar, got some clothes and a hatchet, went upstairs where Abby was finishing up the guest room, killed her, washed off the blood somehow, probably had plenty of time to go hide the bloody clothes and somehow clean up. Probably changed clothes so she could put her previous clothes back on. But here's the thing: She couldn't go back downstairs because Bridget is cleaning the windows and would possibly have seen bloody Lizzie, so the bloody clothes have to be hidden upstairs in either her own room or the guest room. Then she's heard laughing upstairs when her father returns. Comes down and, well, we'll be doing that timeline visually next.

If Lizzie is not lying, then Abby is already missing. The door to the guest room is shut. Bridget is outside and Lizzie is inside going from kitchen to dining room. But at some point, Bridget comes inside. So let's continue on to see what happens next.
Scott Crowder
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by Scott Crowder »

Now let's take a look at The World According to Bridget.
First I washed the sitting-room windows-on the south side of the house-the Kelly side. This was away from the screen door. Before I started washing, Mrs. Kelly's girl appeared and I was talking to her at the fence.

Then I washed the parlor windows: the two front windows. Between times I went to the barn and got some water. I washed the dining-room windows and one parlor window on the side. I went to the barn for water twice while I was on the south side of the house-went round by the rear-and went three or four times more while I was working in front or on the other side of the house. Then I went past the screen door to the barn.

During all that time I did not see anybody come to the house.

Then I got a dipper from the kitchen and clean water from the barn, and commenced to wash the sitting-room windows again by throwing water up on them. When I washed these windows, I did not see anyone in the sitting room, and I did not see anyone in the dining room when I washed those windows. I went round the house rinsing the windows with dippers of water.

Then I put the brush handle away in the barn and got the hand basin and went into the sitting room to wash those windows inside. I hooked the screen door when I came in.

I began to wash the window next to the front door. Had not seen anyone since I saw Lizzie at the screen door. Then I heard like a person at the door was trying to unlock the door but could not; so I went to the front door and unlocked it. The spring lock was locked. I unbolted the door and it was locked with a key; there were three locks. I said "pshaw," and Miss Lizzie laughed, upstairs. Her father was out there on the doorstep. She was upstairs.

She must have been either in the entry or at the top of the stairs, I can't tell which. Mr. Borden and I didn't say a word as he came in. I went back to my window washing; he came into the sitting room and went into the dining room. He had a little parcel in his hand, same as a paper or a book. He sat in a chair at the head of the lounge.

Miss Lizzie came downstairs and came through the front entry into the dining room, I suppose to her father. I heard her ask her father if he had any mail, and they had some talk between them which I didn't understand, but I heard her tell her father that Mrs. Borden had a note and had gone out. The next thing I remember, Mr. Borden took a key off the mantelpiece and went up the back stairs. When he came downstairs again, I was finished in the sitting room, and I took my hand basin and stepladder into the dining room. I began to wash the dining-room windows. Then Miss Lizzie brought an ironing board from the kitchen, put it on the dining-room table and commenced to iron. She said, "Maggie, are you going out this afternoon?" I said, "I don't know; I might and I might not; I don't feel very well" She says, "If you go out be sure and lock the door, for Mrs. Borden has gone out on a sick call, and I might go out, too." Says I, "Miss Lizzie, who is sick?" "I don't know; she had a note this morning; it must be in town."

I finished my two windows; she went on ironing. Then I went in the kitchen, washed out my cloths and hung them behind the stove. Miss Lizzie came out there and said, "There is a cheap sale of dress goods at Sergeant's this afternoon, at eight cents a yard." I don't know that she said "this afternoon", but "today"

And I said, "I am going to have one." Then I went upstairs to my room. I don't remember to have heard a sound of anyone about the house, except those I named.

Then I laid down in the bed. I heard the City Hall bell ring and I looked at my clock and it was eleven o'clock. I wasn't drowsing or sleeping. In my judgment I think I was there three or four minutes. I don't think I went to sleep at all. I heard no sound; I didn't hear the opening or closing of the screen door. I can hear that from my room if anyone is careless and slams the door. The next thing was that Miss Lizzie hollered, "Maggie, come down!" I said, "What is the matter?" She says, "Come down quick; Father's dead; somebody came in and killed him." This might be ten or fifteen minutes after the clock struck eleven, as far as I can judge.
Lizzie came downstairs at 8:45 and Bridget went outside to vomit until 9. Then Bridget came back in and Abby told her to wash windows. So from at the soonest, 9AM until Mr. Andrew returns at 10:45 Bridget is washing windows.

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The clock is ticking. 105 minutes, tops.

Bridget wraps up dishes, has Abby tell her to clean windows, gets her things and prepares to wash the Sitting room windows when suddenly she goes off to talk to the Lewis girl.

First, the top left corner, Bridget is talking to the Lewis girl. How long? We don't know.

Clockwise, Bridget cleans the Sitting room. She sees no one in there nor does she see anyone leave the house. If no one left the house then and she didn't see anyone leave when she was talking to the Lewis girl, then how did Mr. Borden leave unobserved? Out the side door? Then the window of opportunity for Mr. Borden to leave has to be when Bridget was doing the Sitting Room windows, after finishing her talk with the Lewis girl.

90 minutes left.

Bridget cleans both windows, going back past the cellar twice to the barn for water. This girl knows how to slack off work! Really? A bucket of water for EACH window? Come on now! Three more buckets for the remaining five windows before she's through. Now THAT'S working an alibi. So 10 minutes on water runs. But wait, why TWO times to the barn? She already HAS water for the first window? Oh well, this is her story. Say 5 minutes on each window. 20 minutes cleaning the Sitting room windows.

70 minutes left.

Parlor windows. Three windows. Two in front and one on the side. 15 minutes. Two dining windows. 10 more minutes. 3 or 4 trips to the barn because damn let's milk the clock and use up way more water than one person needs to wash a freaking window! I could wash my car with less water! Okay, 15-20 minutes fetching water. That's 40-45 minutes.

25-30 minutes left.

She goes into the kitchen to get a dipper and then goes for more water and repeats this cycle, rinsing off each window. Even if she whips out rinsing windows, dashing back to the barn at a sprint for more and more water, no way she gets done at this pace. She has no time left to actually go inside and clean those windows.

Of course, I could say, maybe she puts a little hustle in it and spends three minutes a window and four minutes hustling for all that water. That's 20-24 minutes getting water and 21 minutes washing windows. Say she rinses really fast, a minute a window. Still gotta get all that water. 33 minutes rinsing.

that's 78 minutes. Time's up. Bridget can't get er done.

Okay, so let's give her 20 more minutes because Lizzie is correct and Bridget had ALREADY fetched the stuff to start cleaning windows when Lizzie came downstairs at 8:45. And let's say Bridget doesn't spend 15 minutes puking her guts out. Maybe she already got that out of the way.

8:48 Bridget is jabbering away with the Lewis girl. If Lizzie is to be believed, she talks to Abby, goes to the cellar, gets her clothes, goes upstairs, bastes some buttons, comes down to the kitchen, sprinkles her hankies and her father leaves. She initially believes this to be 9am.

THAT makes sense.

So 8:45 Bridget goes outside, sees Lewis girl, is talking to her as Father leaves around 9.

Clock starts ticking. 105 minutes. Bridget no longer wastes the first 20 talking to Abby, getting her tools and then talking with the Lewis girl. She's starting the windows. 78 minutes as we calculated before washing, rinsing and running to the barn. leaves 27 minutes to go inside and clean the two sitting room windows and the parlor window.

We've got jiggle room in there. This timeline works, meaning Lizzie was telling it the way it happened and Bridget had it all wrong.

There's even a little time in there for Bridget to go upstairs kill Abby and she has a bucket of water to wipe herself off with. But it isn't very likely she could have changed out of her bloody clothes.

Except, she didn't have to:
I finished my two windows; she went on ironing. Then I went in the kitchen, washed out my cloths and hung them behind the stove.
She needed so much water. She was evidently very wet. Wet enough to have cleaned up her clothes in the barn while fetching water?

And here's something interesting:
Then I put the brush handle away in the barn and got the hand basin and went into the sitting room to wash those windows inside....
I began to wash the window next to the front door. Had not seen anyone since I saw Lizzie at the screen door. Then I heard like a person at the door was trying to unlock the door but could not... The next thing I remember, Mr. Borden took a key off the mantelpiece and went up the back stairs. When he came downstairs again, I was finished in the sitting room(I assume she mispoke and meant to say parlor room), and I took my hand basin and stepladder into the dining room. I began to wash the dining-room windows....I finished my two windows; she went on ironing. Then I went in the kitchen, washed out my cloths and hung them behind the stove. Miss Lizzie came out there and said, "There is a cheap sale of dress goods at Sergeant's this afternoon, at eight cents a yard." I don't know that she said "this afternoon", but "today"

And I said, "I am going to have one." Then I went upstairs to my room. I don't remember to have heard a sound of anyone about the house, except those I named.

Then I laid down in the bed. I heard the City Hall bell ring and I looked at my clock and it was eleven o'clock. I wasn't drowsing or sleeping. In my judgment I think I was there three or four minutes.
She washes all five of those windows inside the house, washes her clothes and goes upstairs IN TEN MINUTES!!!!!

If she did those last five windows, cleaned her clothes and went upstairs in TEN MINUTES, then why did it take her almost TWO FULL HOURS to do everything else? Cue the Benny Hill music as she goes into hyper mode cleaning the last five windows.

And here's a problem: If LIzzie is in the kitchen the entire time, then she would have seen Bridget come in and get the dipper. She could have been in the dining room, but then Bridget's lying that she never saw her in the dining room. If Bridget is telling the truth, then Lizzie is lying. If Lizzie is telling the truth, then Bridget is lying. So far, we've proven that up until this time Lizzie MUST be telling the story correctly and Bridge MUST be wrong. But that just means Bridge may be mistaken, not lying. Now, one of them must be lying.

If Lizzie is lying, then she killed Abby. then she had to somehow hide the bloody clothes. Maybe she brought her clothes upstairs, put on a second set of clothes, killed Abby and then went down to the kitchen to clean the bloody clothes that she later burned. But problem is that still puts her in the kitchen. It still means she was moving through the house where Bridget would have probably seen her. For Lizzie to be lying, Bridget has to never see her hide the bloody clothes. Or the axe. that means Lizzie has to sneak through the house, probably from the front into the sitting room and into the kitchen where she can clean up to some degree the clothes, much as Bridget is said to have done, then take them downstairs in a bucket to the cellar. If the axe is the one found on the roof nearby, then Lizzie has to sneak out the screen door only when Bridget is cleaning the front parlor windows and not getting water.!!! That's diamond heist Ocean's Eleven kind of timing. And of course, then she wouldn't be upstairs when father came home.

If Bridget is lying, however, then either she already HAD the dipper when she got started and just said that to frame Lizzie or by chance she came in and got it while Lizzie was in one of the other rooms. She had ample time to kill Abby. However, Lizzie should have seen her. Bridget has to sneak past Lizzie, while Lizzie is in the house. She could have snuck in while Lizzie is in the dining room, which Bridget would have seen as she finished the dining room windows, gone into the sitting room and then into the front room and so on. But then she has to sneak back out, with an axe, in bloody clothes, hoping Lizzie isn't in the kitchen where Lizzie says she spent most of her time. It makes more sense, then, that Bridget goes out the front door. Then Bridget goes back into the barn, washes herself off and comes inside to clean the inside windows. During this time, Lizzie is in the kitchen. But somehow, Lizzie is unaware of Bridget coming or going. This would be because Bridget came back in the front door, locked it behind her and started cleaning the inside windows. Bridget, in this scenario, can easily dispose of the axe.
Last edited by Scott Crowder on Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:24 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by Scott Crowder »

Okay, folks, feel free to post away. I can add a visual for the time the father comes home later after some initial input of what we have up to now.
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by Scott Crowder »

Here are my initial feelings: Everything Bridget says is aimed at making it look like Lizzie did it. And everything Bridget says doesn't add up. Lizzie's version can match easily, Bridgets version cannot. I remember reading that police get suspicious of any suspect that tries to help them find the murderer. It's a tell THEY are the murderer. Bridget is showing that kind of behavior.

The way Bridget got all five windows inside finished up in the time Andrew came home at 10:45, cleaned her clothes and was upstairs in her room by 10:56 doesn't make any sense. If she's whipping out windows that fast, then the entire job before that only takes her half an hour. Leaving her over an hour to do whatever. If the neighbors clock that was supposedly found to be slow actually was on time and Andrew came home at 10:28, then she does the five windows in about half an hour. The rest of the job before then takes her just under an hour and a half, leaving her about 20 minutes extra.

Things just don't add up. She either took all forever to clean dishes or forever to clean windows and somehow she whipped out the final 5 windows in record time.

OR: she wasn't ever really cleaning any windows and that's why Lizzie never saw her cleaning windows and that's why Lizzie never knew where Bridget was until right when Andrew got home. And at that moment, Bridget tries to pin Lizzie at the stairs up front but the only FACT we know is that Bridget was at the front. Maybe having come from upstairs.

And maybe Bridget talked to the Lewis girl for the sole purpose of establishing that she was outside doing windows. And maybe she said she threw up because she was afraid someone saw her puking after what she'd done so she had to work that into her tale. The puking part is another part that doesn't really fit in. Maybe she just didn't want people thinking she never got sick so she was the poisoner. And maybe she never got sick because she WAS the poisoner.
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by InterestedReader »

When Bridget stood talking with Mary Doolan, the Kellys' maid, surely she was positioned at the front of the Borden plot, near Second Street? At least, that's how I've been understanding it. Lizzie tells Jennings where she saw Bridget stand and Jennings makes a note of it - '...She saw B in corner of yard near street talking with a girl - I think Dr. Kelly's girl'.
'Near street'.

On this point Bridget seems to agree with Lizzie. The courtroom exchanges indicate she stood by the house when talking over the fence, about to clean the sitting-room windows. With Bridget towards the front of the property, somewhere between the house and the fence along Second St, surely she makes reasonable claims for her field of vision.

Sorry, but could you explain why you put Bridget way at the end of the rear yard?

Bridget is chatting too soon after vomiting. I agree this can seem unnatural. Vomiting long and hard doesn't make people sociable.
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by Scott Crowder »

InterestedReader wrote:
Sorry, but could you explain why you put Bridget way at the end of the rear yard?
I went back and looked at the picture of the neighborhood and you're right, I made a mistake. I misread Kelly barn to be Kelly House. I fixed it.
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by NancyDrew »

I'm bumping this thread up in the hopes that a discussion starts.

I think Scott, you've done an amazing job here. You've dissected the timeline and movements of Lizzie and Bridget in a way that I've never seen or read about before. I don't understand why there isn't more interest on the about what you've accomplished.

Your narrative is thick, and a bit difficult to follow; I had to read it very slowly...and I"ll probably go over it again!

Here is my takeaway:

1. You're right about Bridget; her timeline doesn't make sense, doesn't fit. Take 2 hours to wash the dishes, but then "whipping out" the windows in record time. And talking right after retching.

2. Why did Bridget put Lizzie on the stairs when Andrew came home? Was this an attempt to frame Lizzie for Abby's murder? Also, this confused me: You wrote:
"And at that moment, Bridget tries to pin Lizzie at the stairs up front but the only FACT we know is that Bridget was at the front. Maybe having come from upstairs."
Are you saying Bridget was coming from upstairs?
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by Steveads2004 »

Thi is an amazing piece of work!! I have been reading this over and over and find something new wih every read! Thank you for doing this. I love the point about Bridget putting Lizzie on the stairs...makes you re-think the scene.
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by Scott Crowder »

What I'm saying is it is entirely possible that Bridget could have come down the stairs to answer the door. All we know for a FACT is that Bridget was at the front door. We only have her word that she heard Lizzie up the stairs.
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by InterestedReader »

Scott Crowder wrote:
And here's something interesting:
[...] Then I went in the kitchen, washed out my cloths and hung them behind the stove. [...]
She washes all five of those windows inside the house, washes her clothes and goes upstairs IN TEN MINUTES!!!!!

If she did those last five windows, cleaned her clothes and went upstairs in TEN MINUTES, then why did it take her almost TWO FULL HOURS to do everything else? [...]

And here's a problem: If LIzzie is in the kitchen the entire time, then she would have seen Bridget come in and get the dipper. She could have been in the dining room, but then Bridget's lying that she never saw her in the dining room. If Bridget is telling the truth, then Lizzie is lying. If Lizzie is telling the truth, then Bridget is lying. So far, we've proven that up until this time Lizzie MUST be telling the story correctly and Bridge MUST be wrong. But that just means Bridge may be mistaken, not lying. Now, one of them must be lying.

[...]

If Bridget is lying, however, then either she already HAD the dipper when she got started and just said that to frame Lizzie or by chance she came in and got it while Lizzie was in one of the other rooms. She had ample time to kill Abby. However, Lizzie should have seen her. Bridget has to sneak past Lizzie, while Lizzie is in the house. She could have snuck in while Lizzie is in the dining room, which Bridget would have seen as she finished the dining room windows, gone into the sitting room and then into the front room and so on. But then she has to sneak back out, with an axe, in bloody clothes, hoping Lizzie isn't in the kitchen where Lizzie says she spent most of her time. It makes more sense, then, that Bridget goes out the front door. Then Bridget goes back into the barn, washes herself off and comes inside to clean the inside windows. During this time, Lizzie is in the kitchen. But somehow, Lizzie is unaware of Bridget coming or going. This would be because Bridget came back in the front door, locked it behind her and started cleaning the inside windows. Bridget, in this scenario, can easily dispose of the axe.

With Bridget's word 'cloths' she's referring to cleaning-cloths, not 'clothes'.
The idea she's washing her own clothes seems to feed into your argument.

It's this kind of carelessness which makes it difficult for me to visualise your scenario, if I'm honest. Would Bridget really be popping in and out the front door with an axe, in bloody clothes, like a grand guignol cuckoo-clock? It wouldn't be very bright of her. And if it comes to that why is it a 'FACT' she's at the front door? The door is seen to open to Borden but I don't remember Mrs Kelly stating it was Bridget she saw oblige. Most probably it was Bridget. But how does that assumption become 'FACT'?

Or is it deemed 'fact' simply because Bridget said so, because Bridget said she went to the door..?

I do agree that people tend to perceive Bridget's testimony and Lizzie's testimony with a strange literalism, as if it's an objective and factual record of events. It cannot be that, even with the best will in the world. Even if neither is consciously lying, they'll be retrieving information in the subjective way of memory. However, I happen to believe we can't rely on much of what either says and by that token we shouldn't strain to favour the veracity of one over the other because both are inventing the ways they occupied their time that morning.

For example, Bridget's removal upstairs at 10.56am just in time for the second murder, is unbelievably accommodating. I would rather believe that her doing so triggered the killing, and Lizzie killed. But I find it far more plausible that she didn't conveniently remove herself at 10.56am.

Where is the most valuable evidence? Not in Lizzie's words and not in Bridget's but in anything independent of either. Abby Borden may have been killed some fifteen minutes after the departure of John Morse from the house. Andrew Borden is killed within ten to fifteen minutes of entering the house. Aren't these features more telling than any number of sinkers and dippers? Very little in Lizzie's or Bridget's accounts can be corroborated.
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by Scott Crowder »

There is no carelessness here IR. You seem to miss the entire point Doesn't matter if it was clothes or cloths, the point being she washed all five of those windows IN TEN MINUTES, but hey, it took her HOURS to do the rest of her work.

That's not misremembering, that's LYING. Because none of her testimony even stands up otherwise.
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by stargazer »

It really did sound like Lizzie wanted Bridget out of the house re : dress goods. I know if I had found my father dead on a couch, I would not be yelling for the maid to come down. I'd get the hell out of the house. The fact Lizzie sent B to fetch the doc showed that Lizzie wasn't afraid that the killer was still inside. She did talk to ms Churchill from the side porch ? I haven't stored all of the details in my head.
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by KGDevil »

Scott Crowder wrote:There is no carelessness here IR. You seem to miss the entire point Doesn't matter if it was clothes or cloths, the point being she washed all five of those windows IN TEN MINUTES, but hey, it took her HOURS to do the rest of her work.

That's not misremembering, that's LYING. Because none of her testimony even stands up otherwise.
By your own timeline , you give Bridget 9am until 10:45am to be washing windows inside and out. That's not HOURS. That's one hour and 45 minutes. To go around the house throwing up water on the windows and using a long pole to wash them, because she couldn't reach them from the ground. Throwing water up on them a second time to rinse them. Her trips to the barn. For each window around the house. Then who knows how long she actually talked to the Kelley girl. It was a hot day, she wasn't feeling well, and getting a break from work in the heat might have been nice. She comes in and puts her things away down in the cellar. Then she starts washing the windows inside. With a step ladder so she can actually reach them. She also doesn't rinse these windows. She uses a bowl of water instead of a bucket and she doesn't need the long pole. She's also not stopping to chat with anyone. And there were only four windows washed not five.

Do you have any idea what went into doing these chores before the advent of modern technology? The water had to be heated up on the stove and carried from the sink in the sink room to do dishes.You had to have wash and rinse water. It took all day to wash the laundry at that time. That's why it was called laundry day.
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by KGDevil »

And the girl that Bridget was talking to was also Mary Doolan who was Dr. Kelly's maid. You keep referring to her as the Lewis girl.
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by Jersey »

Scott -
AMAZING investigative work, I'm sure that took quite a bit of time!

JMO that Bridget was not the brightest bulb - I also never understood her
statement that put Lizzie upstairs, laughing, when Bridget opened the
door to Mr. Borden, and then said perhaps she was 'in the entrance',
she wasn't sure. I wonder what that means??

I am sure that washing those windows was alot of work, but I don't
believe Bridget rushed through it, it was a hot day, she stopped to
gossip with the Kelly's maid, and did law enforcement ever check the
yard for evidence of Bridget's vomiting?? I've never come across any
mention of this.

Still wondering how accurate the clocks of that era were, and Bridget
says she was laying down for '10 or 15 minutes' after the 11:00 chimes
sounded - yet police were called at 11:15? Bridget was not very
dependable, it seems.
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Re: A visiual timeline

Post by Jersey »

Re-reading all Bridget's statements is really troublesome,
but one can't figure out if she is suspicious or just confused.

What's more troublesome to me is John Morse and the house
in Swansea, wonder if law enforcement every really took a
good look at all of Andrew's financial dealings and future
plans for all his properties and businesses. Surely therein
lies the real story.......
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