Odds & Ends

This the place to have frank, but cordial, discussions of the Lizzie Borden case

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NancyDrew
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Odds & Ends

Post by NancyDrew »

Hi everyone:

Although I've been interested in this case for over 20 years, once in a while, I re-read things and make notes. In the interest of starting a discussion, I'd like to list some *maybe* nit-picky things that have always bothered me. I'm not sure any one of these merits a whole new thread on its own, so I'm just going to list a bunch, and please, comments and feedback WANTED! (Warning: these bits and pieces are all over the place, no real order)

1. Mrs. Emery: This is the relative that John Morse was visiting the day of the murders. Several members of her house hold were ill on that day, and apparently there was a Dr. Bowen who made a house call there, just missing Morse. This is the same Dr. Bowen that was first on scene at 92 2nd street, I'm assuming. Does anyone else find this incredibly coincidental; that these two men would be arriving/leaving the same house, then meeting again at #92?

2. Butcher Davis

John Morse never married; i wonder why? And he lived with this dude; Butcher Davis. I know Morse was trained as a butcher, but why live with the guy? Morse had money; he had the means to support himself; I'd like to know just how close the two of them were.

3. Emma Borden: What was Emma's reaction when she got the news of her parents murder? Did she cry, faint, go numb (like LIzzie)? I haven't read anything regarding her demeanor..

4. Decomp: Were the bodies treated in any way to discourage decomposition? Because they were laid out IN THE HOUSE for several days before the funeral. It was August, it was warm. I can't imagine the smell, never mind the clean-up of all the blood.

5. Lizzie: She was supposed to be thoughtful, introspective, and well-read. Why then, did she drop out of high school? Why did she buy a high school ring if she never graduated? (the one she gave to Andrew, if I'm not mistaken)

6. Back to Morse: According to statements he gave, he was cognizant of the fact that the Bordens were quite ill. Why did he stay, knowing his guests were puking their guts out? Was etiquette so different back then that this wasn't seen as extremely rude and invasive? If someone showed up from out of town right now at my doorstep and my spouse and I were visibly ill, I'd hope they would leave. In fact, Morse seems to have a pattern here of popping in on sick folks (the Emery's were ill too, but that didn't stop John from barging in on them.)
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by snokkums »

Those are some great points. I never knew that about John Morse. I don't think Emma showed any emotion
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by Minions3 »

Butcher Willie gets me thinking that He was involved in Murders . :smile:
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by NancyDrew »

i really hope I can engender some discussion here! Butcher Davis' real name was, I think, Isaac Davis. Supposedly he lived with his father, who was blind. At least that's the reports in some of the research I've done.

Here's another Odds & Ends:

Emma's will. Has anybody ever chased down the folks she left money to (and a good deal of them are people she lived with) to see if they ever commented on her, or if they had an opinion as to why she left Maplecroft?

Emma is, to me, an enigmatic figure. I don't know what her reaction to the news of her fathers death was like, or how she acted during Lizzie's long incarceration before the trial. Bridget took off, so was it just Emma, living all alone for 10 months, at #92? What was her life like during that time? Could she leave the house, or was she hounded by the press and public?

So many loose ends in this story. It truly IS a 'desert island' mystery (meaning if I were stranded on a desert island, I could spend lots and lots of hours researching and wondering about this case.)
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by InterestedReader »

NancyDrew wrote:Emma is, to me, an enigmatic figure.
This is from an interview given by Sarah Whitehead, Abby's much-younger half-sister. Look at what she has Emma saying. I only noticed it the other day. Suddenly we hear Emma being vindictive. Suddenly Emma shows some character, and it's a nasty one:

“...My sister [Abby] had quite a sum of money left her by our father which had been accumulating, and she also owned bank shares and mill stock, and only last Christmas I know her husband presented her with some other mill stock. I always supposed she had altogether as much as $50,000 or $60,000. Now she is dead I do not think we will get any more than the Borden girls can help. They never liked me and whenever I called there they seldom spoke to me. Why, they had rather give anything to any one than to me. Emma told my sister* that she was going to see to it that I got nothing of Mrs. Borden’s effects. I have some of my property in the Borden house that my sister was keeping for me, and I am afraid I won’t get it..."
(Boston Globe, Saturday August 13 1892.)

* Priscilla Gray Fish, presumably?

This property business appears to have caused bad blood all round so who can say who was being truthful, but - Sarah Whitehead goes straight on to deplore Abby's funeral, and it sounds like she's more upset over the disrespect than the inheritance:

“I don’t think there was any good taste shown in the burial. The ceremony was as short as it could be made, and it was remarked that poor people have had better ones."
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by NancyDrew »

Wow, that's certainly telling. Why would Emma be so stingy and nasty as to not return her step-mother's personal effects? If true, Emma is a piece of work.

I've been reading bits and pieces from the Lizzie Borden Sourcebook; I do not own it, but I read pages and pages of it on Amazon. The newspaper articles are endless and fascinating, and give imo, contradictory images of the true nature of Lizze AND Emma.

I found one (sorry, I'm unable to cut and paste it) in which Emma admits that Lizzie is "queer." (obviously not meaning she is gay, but rather odd, or peculiar.) Then I read other articles in which there are references to interviews with Lizzie's friends, who say she is kindly, charitable, generous, a gentle person. Then comes Uncle Hiram who describes his niece as "haughty and domineering" and "given to sullenness."

And then Emma. Early articles contain very little information about her. No one was interviewing her friends, or looking at her social life with a microscope. Once she moved out of Maplecroft, there are a few newspaper accounts about her life in NewMarket, NH (an area I'm very familiar with...these days it's quite the trendy, almost hippie type community.) Emma is described as almost reclusive, and definitely NOT neighborly. She sometimes strolled through town with her companion: I think her name was Miss O'Connor. She owned the boarding house where Emma resided, but gave up that business to become Emma's full time friend (which I find strange. Was she a money-grabber? ) Emma didn't talk to townspeople, or anyone really. It's hard to get a grasp on her.

One more tid-bit. 1905. What a horrible year for Lizzie. Her sister moved out, and she lost her friendship with Nancy O'Neil. I wonder what event precipitated the severing of that relationship. According to interviews with Ms. O'Neil (also quite the character) Lizzie was the unhappiest person she ever knew. Lonely, with the shadow of "the tragedy" always hanging over her.

I vacillate on both sisters. I feel both positive Lizzie was an axe murdering weirdo committing heinous acts in perhaps some dazed, fugue state that she repressed for the rest of her days, AND that she was also a victim of the most improbable perfect storm of circumstance: some lunatic enemy of her father's had sneaked into the house, murdered, then escaped totally undetected.

The more I read, the more confused I get!!!!
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by InterestedReader »

They're interesting, that little bunch of Abby's real family - I recently went through them in the basic vital records to get a sense of Abby, who she was, where she came from... My impression is they were decent hardworking people and if they weren't making money hand-over-fist like Borden they were probably the nicer for it. I found that Abby, before she married, actually had a profession. As did her mother, Sarah Sawyer. Makes you think, doesn't it? In the 1840s and 1850s women with a profession were very much in the minority, even in the States. Abby, her mother, her whole family had to work hard to get by, and there she now was in Second Street pandering to two grown women who ironed hankies, drank tea at the Fruit and Flower Guild, and dropped their used sanitary napkins in buckets.

I think Sarah Whitehead very possibly did tell a reporter Emma was behaving like a bitch. Journalists know it's unwise to misrepresent the sympathetic figure in a story.

Hiram Harrington seems well unbalanced. Didn't he live in the same house as Lizzie when she was a child? You'd think some kind of social graces - or sense of family honour - would save him from screaming she's a murderess first chance he gets. Where does Hiram even come from? I mean, I can't immediately see who his parents were... Even on his FindaGrave his page is done by a Borden but Hiram's parents are missing.... Is it significant that weird Hiram is the only person Lizzie names and shades? Was that just tit-for-tat?
Do you think Hiram was at odds with his brother-in-law Andrew?

Oh - I s'pose this is Hiram Harrington in 1850 - a Newport family, father a mason, plus blacksmith Hiram:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MDJZ-H79

Is there any proof of Emma's whereabouts after Maplecroft? Drawing on past Forum information as to who she lived with (perhaps under an assumed name) I was trying to see her in a Census for Newmarket, but couldn't. I expect as a local you know where Emma was.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by KGDevil »

Some contemporary news stories from the split.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by KGDevil »

As for John Morse, he never lived alone. Neither did Emma. It wasn't in their nature. He enjoyed company. He was always boarding with someone else, or there were people living in his home with him. The man never traveled alone either. According to most of the newspaper accounts I have read of him, he was very well respected and thought well of in both Massachusetts and in Iowa. His comings and goings were recorded quite often in the Iowa newspapers.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by Minions3 »

Butcher Davis is William A.,the son of Isaac.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by snokkums »

:wink: You've brought up good point about Lizzie dropping out of school if she was thoughtful, smart. The reason I can come up with is that maybe she was bored or just not interested in school. I never liked school myself. I always thought of school as a social event. I was there to learn and it didn't seem like to me when I was there. Maybe she felt the same way. Who knows but, just something to think of. Anybody have some thoughts on this point. I'd love to hear about them! ! Boy, what a great point You've brought up
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The Vanishing Morse.

Post by InterestedReader »

Hello KGDevil, nice to see you again.

Regarding Morse's brothers and sisters, all the siblings of Lizzie's mother Sarah, have you yet come across the information on genealogy sites that there is another?

They say that one Morse came into the world only to disappear. That Sarah and John had a full sister who didn't die in childhood, but does vanish. This Unnamed Morse has very precise dates for her birth and death - born in 1825 and dying 26th March 1865 - and she would be born to Anthony Morse and Rhoda Morrison. I haven't traced her whereabouts so far - she's not in the Morse family home in either the 1850 or 1860 Census.

Have you any idea if this could be verifiably true? Have you tried to identify this aunt of Lizzie's?

People wonder if Lizzie's mother Sarah Morse suffered some kind of mental affliction. Well, could there have been an aunt who actually was placed in an institution..?

These days I'm very mindful of your warning about the quality of the data on Ancestry.com. People just add all kinds of random finds to their trees like a patchwork quilt, and I haven't much patience with it. I try to follow the actual records for myself, usually from the bare bones of information on Family Search - it involves concentration but is less likely to go wrong.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:3S7Z-2K9

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/ ... 9657/facts
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by NancyDrew »

InterestedReader: Ok let me pick up just a few of the odds & ends here. Emma lived for quite a while at Minden Hall, or Minden Apartments, or whatever it was called; it is a giant, multi-storied building with the word "MINDEN" engraved in stone over the doorway. There are a couple of older threads here devoted to it, and a picture on this one: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3462&hilit=minden.

I've driven past The Minden hundreds of times and never knew its significance. I guess it has gone through lots of changes, and currently, from what I understand, it's a dormitory for Brown University students, located on the very elite East-Side of Providence (gorgeous mansions and houses there; it's a college town, but a wealthy one.) Emma lived in apt #80, and the Gardners lived in #79. I want to know more about the Gardners; they were recipients in her will (which I have a copy of; in a Word Document; how do I paste that here? )

Hiram Harrington: I don't know much about him, except that he was married to Andrew's sister and he and Lizzie didn't like each other. i will delve into this further when I have more time; I'm sure it's been discussed here before but it is fun to look at things with a pair of fresh eyes.

snokkums: Yes, I really wonder about Lizzie. She dropped out of school; WHY? I've read articles that describe her as very shy and uncomfortable in her own skin; someone who didn't make friends easily. Emma went to college, correct? I wonder if EITHER of them thought about a career. They obviously were not "the marrying kind" so what in the world did think they were going to do with their lives? I've often wondered about Lizzie, what her daily life was like. Did she assume she would live a life of leisure, without purpose?

I'm showing my bias here. I like to work; it's important to me to do something, anything, with my life. I cannot fathom being someone who just sleeps late, spends money, entertains other rich, spoiled women, shops for new clothes, etc. (Wouldn't that be horribly boring??) My middle-class upbringing is showing, huh?
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by InterestedReader »

NancyDrew wrote: I wonder if EITHER of them thought about a career. They obviously were not "the marrying kind" so what in the world did think they were going to do with their lives? I've often wondered about Lizzie, what her daily life was like. Did she assume she would live a life of leisure, without purpose?
That's why I was interested to find Abby had a profession before she married Andrew Borden. Such women were very rare, but Abby's mother Sarah Sawyer also had a profession. All this must have informed Abby's perspective in her later years... And of course, Lizzie knew nothing about work. They were polar opposites.
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Re: The Vanishing Morse.

Post by KGDevil »

InterestedReader wrote:Hello KGDevil, nice to see you again.

Regarding Morse's brothers and sisters, all the siblings of Lizzie's mother Sarah, have you yet come across the information on genealogy sites that there is another?

They say that one Morse came into the world only to disappear. That Sarah and John had a full sister who didn't die in childhood, but does vanish. This Unnamed Morse has very precise dates for her birth and death - born in 1825 and dying 26th March 1865 - and she would be born to Anthony Morse and Rhoda Morrison. I haven't traced her whereabouts so far - she's not in the Morse family home in either the 1850 or 1860 Census.

Have you any idea if this could be verifiably true? Have you tried to identify this aunt of Lizzie's?

People wonder if Lizzie's mother Sarah Morse suffered some kind of mental affliction. Well, could there have been an aunt who actually was placed in an institution..?

These days I'm very mindful of your warning about the quality of the data on Ancestry.com. People just add all kinds of random finds to their trees like a patchwork quilt, and I haven't much patience with it. I try to follow the actual records for myself, usually from the bare bones of information on Family Search - it involves concentration but is less likely to go wrong.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:3S7Z-2K9

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/ ... 9657/facts
I have not come across any information about this mysterious sibling. But I am planning to check into it this evening to see if I can find any verifiable information. I have to say this is the first time I have heard anything about a vanished sister. I have delved into Hiram Harrington's genealogy. There was really nothing all that remarkable about his family or his upbringing that I have been able to find. I do find it interesting that he chased the gold rush in California for awhile. It shows he was given to flights of fancy in search of fortune?
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by InterestedReader »

KG, there's a lot of very differing information on Morse's family, when you look across the family trees on Ancestry. It seems as if little was known until recently and his family-structure is only now being established. (Getting a good picture of Morse's family and Morse's life would come far higher up my own list of priorities than pinning the theory of an 'assassination plot' onto him!) So I'm just now trying to sort out which people verifiably are his brothers and sisters. It would be wonderful if you set your skills on the problem.

People see John V. Morse as capable of any nefarious act to get his mits on Borden money. And yet, it is his sister Selecta's offspring who would one day contest Emma Borden's will. That took gumption. I wonder what claim they thought they had.

No, I've not found anything either, to explain Hiram Harrington's odd behaviour.

I've been looking into William A. Davis, his father Isaac and their relation to Morse... The theory of Davis' involvement in the murders seems a complete nonsense.

Isaac C. Davis was dying of cancer when Morse visited the Davis family that summer. He was 75, frail, and blind; Morse couldn't expect to make the journey again and find him alive. In fact Isaac died five months later.
William A. Davis lived with his wife of 20 years, Sophia. In 1892 their daughter Alice was 17, their sons Isaac and David were 14 and 10 - all at home. William's father-in-law sometimes lived there too.
Morse and Davis weren't co-habiting! and both the Davis households were very busy with extended family, so they'd find it difficult getting gay for one another :smile:
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by twinsrwe »

Nancy, this is a great thread you have authored. I don't think you are being at all nit-picky. Some of things you listed have also bothered me. I'll start with Butcher Davis...

WILLIAM A. DAVIS — Fritz Adilz. “An Armchair Solution to the Borden Mystery,” Lizzie Borden Quarterly [Summer 1994 plus 6 more issues (see Bibliographies- Web-site)]: William Davis as assassin, in collusion with Morse. Davis is the son of Morse’s old friend Isaac Davis, butcher, who used to employ Morse, and with whom he lived for a time. Lizzie was guilty but did not actually kill with her own hands.

The above information was obtained from Stefani’s Lizzie Andrew Borden Virtual Museum and Library, under the heading of Suspects List: http://tinyurl.com/kv93jhs

There are several points in Mr. Fritz’s theory which I totally disagree with. However, here is his theory for you to read, and draw your own conclusions.

Please note:
1. Left click on the right hand page to go to the next page, and click on the left hand page to go a page backward.
2. At the top of each page, on the right hand side, you will find a – and + symbol, so that you can increase and decrease the font size of the text. FYI: You will need to decrease the font size in order to turn the pages…
3. At the bottom of the page you will find symbols that allow you to view one, two or four pages at a time.
4. If you come across a blank page in the article, then ‘refresh’ the page; it will then become visible.

Part one of ‘An Armchair Solution to the Borden Mystery’; page 11: http://tinyurl.com/kgwksml

Part two, page 12: http://tinyurl.com/n2odcwl

Part three, page 4: http://tinyurl.com/k3gf7zg

Part four, page 7: http://tinyurl.com/khtkp4c

Part five, along with Mr. Fritz’s conclusion, and reviews by Dr. Howard Brody and Denise Noe; pages 6 through 9: http://tinyurl.com/lj7ac5l

In case anyone would be interested in reading Dr. Howard Brody’s article that is mentioned in his review of Adila Fritz’s theory, here it is on page 4: http://tinyurl.com/n262pgl

At one time, I also believed that William A. Davis was Isaac C. Davis’ son, because of the information contained in the following threads:

‘Jeffery's Theory’, May 29, 2004: http://tinyurl.com/nsd5e6g

‘william a. davis’, November 9, 2004: http://tinyurl.com/nzna7f9

"lizzie a. borden did not kill her father"!!!!!!!, November 14, 2004: http://tinyurl.com/q7lryl2

However, according to John Morse’s inquest testimony, he clearly states that Isaac C. Davis was William A. Davis’ son:

Inquest Testimony of John V. Morse, being questioned by Hosea Knowlton, page 94 (1):

Q. What is your place of residence, Mr. Morse?
A. For the past year it has been South Dartmouth; my real home is in the west.

Q. Wherebouts in South Dartmouth?
A. William A. Davis



Q. What relation is Mr. Davis to you?
A. None. Years before I went West, I worked for them in the meat business. I have always kept up correspondence since. It seems like home to me, and I like to stay there. Isaac C. Davis, his son, is in the meat business with him. The old man cannot see now, has a cancer. I stay there with them.

Source: http://lizzieandrewborden.com/wp-conten ... ay2003.pdf

John Morse stated that William A. Davis could not see, so, how is it possible that a blind man was the killer of both Andrew and Abby? The inquest testimonies were held August 9-11, 1892. This is 5-7 days after the murders, therefore, we are not talking about a huge period of time between the day of the murders and the day John Morse stated that William A. Davis was blind. There is only one possible conclusion: William A. Davis did not kill the Bordens.

I couldn’t understand why there was so much confusion about Isaac vs. William being the son, so I did some research and found on Find-A-Grave that Isaac C. Davis, born on January 17, 1818, did have a son named William A. Davis, born on August 6, 1851, and that William A. Davis had a son named Isaac Case Davis, born on August 31, 1878. If these are not the Davis’ that John Morse was living with at the time of the murders, then please correct me.

Find-A-Grave for Isaac C. Davis: http://tinyurl.com/m2btx3s

Find-A-Grave for William A. Davis: http://tinyurl.com/lq8nxf2

Find-A-Grave for Isaac Case Davis: http://tinyurl.com/kve477c

If these are indeed the Davis’ that John Morse was living with at the time of the murders, then William A. Davis was 40 years old, soon to be 41 years old, and his son Isaac was only 13 years old, soon to be 14 years old.

As for why John Morse never married, I'm afraid your guess is as good as mine. :sad: However, in the thread titled, Morse's history, Allen posted a lot of very interesting information: http://tinyurl.com/oc8m56s
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by twinsrwe »

NancyDrew wrote:... I found one (sorry, I'm unable to cut and paste it) in which Emma admits that Lizzie is "queer." (obviously not meaning she is gay, but rather odd, or peculiar.) Then I read other articles in which there are references to interviews with Lizzie's friends, who say she is kindly, charitable, generous, a gentle person. Then comes Uncle Hiram who describes his niece as "haughty and domineering" and "given to sullenness." ...
Is this the newspaper article that you are referring to?

The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook, page 342: http://tinyurl.com/jvo7qso
In remembrance of my beloved son:
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by InterestedReader »

The Davis' in question are Isaac C. the father, and William A. the son.
It's not William who is blind, it is Isaac:
'The old man cannot see now, has a cancer.'

In 1892 William's own son Isaac Case Davis was only 14. So there must be some kind of slip going on at the Inquest... The 'old man' would be Isaac C. Davis, who was dying of cancer in 1892. He was 75, frail, and blind according to Morse. He wouldn't be ideal for murdering people.

Here is Morse living with - presumably apprenticed to - Isaac C. Davis in 1855.
When Morse was 22 and Isaac Davis 37:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQ42-PNS
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by twinsrwe »

InterestedReader wrote:It's the other way around.
The Davis' in question are Isaac the father, and William the son.
In 1892 William's own son Isaac Case Davis was only 14.
So there must be some kind of slip going on at the Inquest... The 'old man' would be Isaac C. Davis, who was dying of cancer in 1892. He was 75, frail, and blind according to Morse. He wouldn't be ideal for murdering people.
It's not William who is blind, it is Isaac:
'The old man cannot see now, has a cancer.' ...
Yes, Interested, these are the same Davis' that I posted. However, I have to stand by what I posted, until you can show me proof that I am wrong. (Please don’t hurt me, OK? :axeman: )

John Morse testified that he was living in South Dartmouth with William A. Davis. This tells me that William was the head of the household, not Isaac. However, you are correct; William’s son Isaac, did turn 14 on August the 31st, 1892. IMO: At the age of 13 Isaac would have been at the appropriate age to start working bedside his father. John Morse did not say that Isaac was a butcher, all he said was, “Isaac C. Davis, his son, is in the meat business with him.”

I’m sorry, I don’t mean to discredit you, but I have to disagree with you. I don’t believe that there was some kind of a slip going on at the Inquest. John Morse clearly testified that he lived with the Davis’ for a year, so, surely he would know with one was the father, and which one was the son, wouldn’t he?

BTW: Thank you for posting the 1855 Census, which indicates that William A. Davis was 4 years old at the time, so, if you add 37 years onto the age of 4, you will have William at 41 years old, which is the age that I stated he would soon be.

1855 Census for Wm A. Davis: http://tinyurl.com/l65t7n4

InterestedReader wrote: … Here is Morse living with - presumably apprenticed to - Isaac C. Davis in 1855.
When Morse was 22 and Isaac Davis 37:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQ42-PNS
I’m sorry, Interested, but I do not see where John V. Morse is listed. Are you saying that John V Moss is John V. Morse? Granted both John Moss and John Morse were born in 1833, but I have never heard of John V. Morse referred to as John V. Moss. Why do you believe John Moss is John Morse?
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by KGDevil »

Most of the newspaper reports that I have read about John V. Morse have been favorable Especially in his later years. Except for this one which appeared in the Boston Post on Friday, August 19, 1892.Forgive me as I have to post the newspaper articles in separate attachments because it's quite lengthy.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by KGDevil »

continued from above, the rest of the article.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by KGDevil »

Timeline of John V. Morse according to Rebello

Born July 5, 1833 in Fall River Massachusetts. He was employed for two years by Charles and Isaac Davis in the meat business in South Darmouth, Massachusetts where he learned the butcher trade. At the age of 22, he left Massachusetts and lived for a year in Excelsior, Minnesota with his brother William Bradford Morse. From there he moved to Illinois where he took up farming. He lived in Illinois as a farmer for 14 years before moving to Hastings, Iowa. He purchased his farm,100 acres. there in August of 1871. In April of 1873 he purchased another 40 acres. In August of 1873 he purchased another 40 acres. In 1876 he purchased yet another 40 acres. This brings his land holdings up to 220 acres by 1873.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by twinsrwe »

Wow, KG, those newspaper articles are very telling as to why poor John Morse never married, aren't they? Thank you for posting them for us.

I also want to thank you for posting the information on John Morse from Rebello. So the Isaac Davis that Rebello mentions here must be this one? Find-A-Grave for Isaac C. Davis: http://tinyurl.com/m2btx3s
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by KGDevil »

That looks like that might be the correct one, Twins. Also found in Rebello on page 121:

"No sir, John V. Morse never committed that crime. It's an awful mistake. Why, I would have trusted him with everything in the world, and would as soon think of my own son doing the deed. " Isaac Davis, close friend of John V. Morse, New Bedford Evening Standard, Friday, August 5, 1892:4.


I have been delving into my documents and things regarding John V. Morse this evening. I am also going to go on the hunt of this alleged long lost sister. But, I also ran across this article and figured it might be worth sharing as well.

Star Tribune, Minneapolis, Minnesota, Sunday, October 10, 1920: 16.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by twinsrwe »

Huh, I have not seen that particular photo of William Bradford Morse before. Thank you for posting the photo and for the newspaper article.

Here are the two photos that I have seen of William Morse:
Morse-2388.jpg
Morse-1108.jpg
These don't even look like the same person, do they?

The second photo looks like he is a brother to John V. Morse:
John Vinnicum Morse.jpg
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by InterestedReader »

Great material, KG.
(I really should sprain my wrist & get Rebello off the bookshelf.)
Wonderful quote from old Isaac. The Davis Theorists seem to ignore that one.
I must say, having looked at the Davis family through the years on the vital records, I became quite scandalised that Isaac and William are now branded as murderers. William's grandson died only recently.

KG, roughly speaking the Missing Morse should come between Sarah Anthony, born 1823, and Hannah, born 1827. Some family trees on Ancestry are giving Rhoda Morrison as many as ten to twelve children. Unnamed Morse is said to be born 1825 so would be one of the elder ones. To Judge by the 1860 Census she doesn't move to Illinois with family, and she's said to die in Massachusetts 26th March 1863.

Yes Judy, I do think that's Morse on the 1855 Census. He and his entire family are entered as 'Moss' on the 1860 Census. There are far worse misspellings and mistranscriptions. For that matter some of the Iowa Census entries accepted as Morse, are years out for the birth-year - the 1885 Census, for example, is wrong by 5 years.

Has everyone seen the photo of sister Selecta Morse? It's gruesome. Matched with William Bradford it shows a beaky nose and mournful features came with the Morse DNA.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by InterestedReader »

twinsrwe wrote:
InterestedReader wrote:The 'old man' would be Isaac C. Davis, who was dying of cancer in 1892. [...] It's not William who is blind, it is Isaac:
'The old man cannot see now, has a cancer.'
[...] I have to stand by what I posted, until you can show me proof that I am wrong.
Twins, I can't prove you 'wrong' because it's a question of interpretation and common sense.
William Davis was 40.
Isaac was 75, he was an old man who did soon die of cancer, the 26th January 1893.

William's birth, 6th August 1851:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q29G-YWHJ

Isaac's record of death:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N7B9-99C
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by InterestedReader »

Regarding the Rebello excerpt - Morse tends to get presented as the lone adventurer of the family, going out West alone or with just brother William. But John Morse moved West with his family.
(Illinois is 'West', right? :smile: )

Look at the Illinois 1860 Census.
There is Anthony Morse and second wife Hannah, John V., Selecta, Fernando, Arabella, Alvarado and Sarah. That's the father, wife and six of the progeny:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MX4Z-BHV

(This clerk is also making a mess of 'Morse' - The whole family become 'Moss' here, not just John V.. 'Morse' is commonly misspelt in the Census.)

In 1850 the family are in Little Compton Rhode Island. In 1860 they're all in Illinois.
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Post by InterestedReader »

KG, does John V. have an Uncle Charles Morse?

I'm wondering if John Vinnicum is in Bristol, Rhode Island in 1885.
There's one in the Census exact right age, born in Massachusetts, living with an Uncle Charles:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M5FS-T3L

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M5FS-T86

(I know John is already in the Iowa Census in 1885, and here in the UK you only get in a Census once! but I've now followed quite a few Borden people enumerated twice in two different places, so all I know is this was a phenomenon.)
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by snokkums »

:silly: I have read not read anything on John. morse's sexuality, or I should say I've never found much of anything on him. Other than this episode in Lizzie's life and it seemed to be odd that he was in town. He and Lizzie seem to be the bestsuspects. Emma was out of town and Bright the maid had to much to lose.

But, knowing what little I do about the time period, it seems that it just was'nt common for people to be simgle
Hence, Lizzie and Emma living with daddy war bucks and step-mom. And I think that we put 21st century spin on two guys living together. It could be anything but that or exactly that about two guys living together.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by KGDevil »

InterestedReader wrote:Regarding the Rebello excerpt - Morse tends to get presented as the lone adventurer of the family, going out West alone or with just brother William. But John Morse moved West with his family.
(Illinois is 'West', right? :smile: )

Look at the Illinois 1860 Census.
There is Anthony Morse and second wife Hannah, John V., Selecta, Fernando, Arabella, Alvarado and Sarah. That's the father, wife and six of the progeny:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MX4Z-BHV

(This clerk is also making a mess of 'Morse' - The whole family become 'Moss' here, not just John V.. 'Morse' is commonly misspelt in the Census.)

In 1850 the family are in Little Compton Rhode Island. In 1860 they're all in Illinois.
In 1865, we also have John Morse as the head of his own household in Macoupin, Illinois.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939V-5YP7-B
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by KGDevil »

InterestedReader wrote:Great material, KG.
(I really should sprain my wrist & get Rebello off the bookshelf.)
Wonderful quote from old Isaac. The Davis Theorists seem to ignore that one.
I must say, having looked at the Davis family through the years on the vital records, I became quite scandalised that Isaac and William are now branded as murderers. William's grandson died only recently.

KG, roughly speaking the Missing Morse should come between Sarah Anthony, born 1823, and Hannah, born 1827. Some family trees on Ancestry are giving Rhoda Morrison as many as ten to twelve children. Unnamed Morse is said to be born 1825 so would be one of the elder ones. To Judge by the 1860 Census she doesn't move to Illinois with family, and she's said to die in Massachusetts 26th March 1863.

Yes Judy, I do think that's Morse on the 1855 Census. He and his entire family are entered as 'Moss' on the 1860 Census. There are far worse misspellings and mistranscriptions. For that matter some of the Iowa Census entries accepted as Morse, are years out for the birth-year - the 1885 Census, for example, is wrong by 5 years.

Has everyone seen the photo of sister Selecta Morse? It's gruesome. Matched with William Bradford it shows a beaky nose and mournful features came with the Morse DNA.
Thank you for sharing the photo's of the Morse siblings Twins and Interested. I would say that Selecta's daughter, Eva May (Shaw) Roe resembles her mother a great deal.

https://books.google.com/books?id=x7MyA ... aw&f=false
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by KGDevil »

So far, I have not found any verifiable information about a mystery sibling of John V. Morse that vanished. The closest I've come to finding an unknown sibling was some pretty sketchy information about a boy born named Frederick Augustus Morse, born in Somerset, Massachusetts in 1827, and who also died in Somerset, Massachusetts in 1830. His alleged parents are listed as Anthony Morse and Rhoda.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by InterestedReader »

KG, I've only just noticed that the death date 26th March for Unnamed Morse is of course Sarah Anthony's date of death in 1863. (Lizzie's mother.) And yet she's presented as distinct from Sarah Anthony, with a different birth year, 1825 rather than 1823.

If this is a mistake it's the kind of mistake which is endemic on Ancestry.com. She's also on Findagrave, which isn't completely reliable either. But it's odd she comes up on Family Search - where the Pedigree Resource Files tend to reflect actual records.
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So was Morse living with a woman?

Post by InterestedReader »

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XCKM-RNW

If that's John Vinnicum Morse in Macoupin, in 1865, then he has living with him -

1 female child under 10 and
1 female between the ages of 20 and 30.

The third occupant is a male between 30 and 40 - is this Morse himself?
(I haven't yet got the hang of these early Census s.)

The woman must be the child's mother, I imagine. She can't be the 'old' woman we hear of keeping house for him and causing scandal.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by AngieWarhol »

One point I can speak to on a very personal level, is the dropping out of school portion.
I'm 25 years old, and at 23 I was diagnosed with pretty severe ADHD. Up until I was diagnosed I didn't believe ADHD was even an actual disorder. I can speak to the idea that grades and diplomas don't always indicate an individuals intelligence. My brother, who is 36 and now a psychologist, also was diagnosed a few months before me with ADHD. Not surprisingly, since it does almost always tend to be genetic. My brother managed to get through college, while I did not. And while, unlike Lizzie, I did graduate high school, I stuck it out mostly due to the thought in my mind that I would be looked at as stupid, or dumb, if I didn't. In fact most of my teachers liked me, and if I was interested in the class I did fairly well. But it was like pulling teeth for me. Now had I known I had ADHD and was treated for it when I was in high school and college I have no doubts that I would have done just fine.
I have a hard time believing that in the mid to late 1800's, a young woman would have felt the same societal pressures to stay in school compared to a young woman in the 2000's. I was an English Literature and Cultural Studies major while I was still managing to drag myself through college. And my love of literature, history, and politics hasn't faded since I left. In fact, my best subject was science and that's the field I work in now. I was trained on the job and I love what I do. Even though I don't have a piece of paper to back myself up.
After learning more about Lizzie's life after the trial and reading letters she wrote, and about her love of the theatre and art, I can only assume she was similar to me in the aspect of education. Especially back then. My school felt rigid and stifling while I was a high school senior in 2010. And that's coming from someone that loves learning. I can only imagine what it would have been like in the 1800's for a young woman.
Sorry for the rant :lol: But her post trial life has always left me with the impression that she probably was quite well read and intelligent. Social norms and social structures were quite different then, especially for women, versus how they are now. But I relate to her in that regard.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by NancyDrew »

Wow; I love all the comments here; thank you everyone, let's keep talking!

Where do I begin? I may miss someone here, but I'll get back to it.

Twins: Thank you SO much for the links to the Fritz Adilz's series on Uncle John Morse. Quite a character indeed. I have always thought his alibi was too pat, too perfect. (As Charles Laughton said in 'Witness for the Prosecution' "It's too darned symmetrical!") He was vague on other details when questioned, unsure about specific things, but man-oh-man, that trip to Swansea to visit his relatives..he knew every last digit.

Like Lizzie, I find subsequent articles about him to be varying. Was a he a genteel, lovely man, or a tight-fisted, anti-social eccentric? That word,"eccentric." I remember well when I was a child (45 years ago!) that word was used gently to describe people who were not quite all there.

One issue I think we may face is that we apply 2017 meanings and standards to words and phrases used in 1892, when societal norms were very different. Today we talk about anything and everything. People swear on prime-time television, female celebrities think nothing of wearing almost no-clothes in public, we have TV commercials that make ME blush (and I'm an old hippie, and still a progressive liberal...but I find watching television ads for female sexual lubricant, or male-enhancement pills to be just a tad TOO MUCH.) As recently as the 1960's (which I know is a long time ago, but not when compared to 1892) it was completely taboo to discuss female problems, show your belly button in public, talk about depression, suicide, mental illness, and GOD-FORBID, sexuality. There were nasty references to male homosexuality, but lesbianism? NEVER, unless you were living in San Francisco, or the Village in NYC.

What is the point of my long-winded speech? Well, that we need to look at articles written about our cast of characters here and read between the lines...try to discern what was really being said. Referring to the article posted by KGDevil, in which Uncle John is describe by friends, townspeople, etc, in terms that make me wonder what the heck was going on with this dude.

1. He never married.
2. He wore the same clothes all the time.
3. He was "silent, morose & gloomy." (clinically depressed?)

I can't get a handle of him. The picture painted by this article, doesn't, at least for me, jibe with with a man who loved company. Thoughts, anyone?

Okay, the Davis household. Is it Isaac the father, William the son, or vice versa? It's like playing "Who's on 1st?". I think it can be safely assume that no matter what the name of the man in Fritz's theory, IF there WAS a Davis involved in the murder (as Fritz theorizes) it was by no means the blind 75 year old Davis who (according to Morse's testimony) had cancer. It was his son. Why would Butcher Davis agree to murder the Bordens? And why such overkill, for a trained butcher? The sheer number of blows to Abby (and Andrew, but particularly Abby) to me, speak of rage, passion, hatred. Someone whose task is to dispatch of Abby quickly and efficiently could have gotten the job done with 2 or 3 blow, no? Not 18!

I have to get to work, but I'll come back later to talk....and again, THANKS to everyone for participating in this wonderfully vigorous discussion!
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The Davis Family

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It helps to know something about a man, before we announce for a certainty he was a hit-man paid to slaughter people. So perhaps we should take the trouble to look at a few records for what they tell us of the facts. At least they clear away confusion over the names.

William A. Davis is born the 6th of August 1851, in Darthmouth to Isaac C. Davis and his wife Julia Baker Davis. Isaac is a 'Butcher':

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FXC3-2LJ
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q29G-YWHJ

Here is Isaac and his family in the 1855 Census - daughters Emilia, Emma and Sarah, son William, now 4, and John V. Morse:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQ42-PNS

At this point Isaac is 37 and Morse 22.
It's perfectly possible that Davis took on Morse before his son's birth, when with 3 daughters and no son as yet, Davis might think he wasn't going to get one. Clearly the two men developed a semi-familial bond; Morse would later describe the Davis household as 'like home to me'. In 1855, Morse's mother was already dead and his own father had remarried.
It's said that Morse was apprenticed to be a butcher. In the Census, however, Morse is listed as a 'Farmer'.

Isaac C. Davis, 'Butcher', in 1860, son William A. Davis is 9:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MZH6-SLQ

In the 1865 Census Isaac is 47 and Julia is 43. The three daughters are still at home, and William is 14. Isaac still a 'Butcher':
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQHJ-5GL

In 1870 Isaac is 52, a 'Butcher', and William is 19, now a 'Butcher' too. William's elder sister Amelia is a 'Clerk in a Store'. Only two daughters at home this time, Amelia and young Sarah, a year William's junior:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MDSK-WJY

In 1873 William Davis marries Sophia Wilcox. She is 19, he is 22 - which doesn't suggest a disinclination for marriage on William's part:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NWB6-X76

The Wilcox family were neighbours. All the Davis children marry into neighbouring farming families and one can see this Dartmouth community was a close-knit one.
William and Sophia are married by a 'Minister of the Gospel' - does that tell us William's particular faith?
Their 'Marriage Notice':
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FC91-4XR

I wonder if Morse ever had designs on one of William's sisters, Amelia, Emma or Sarah? But by 1883 all three were married.

Isaac's now huge household in 1880:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MH69-5LY
Isaac, Julia, daughter Sarah, daughter Amelia and her husband Wanton (!) Beauvais, daughter Emma and her husband Samuel Tucker, their daughter and Isaac's granddaughter Margaret, Betsey Baker who is Isaac's mother-in-law, a little chap of 14 called John Harris who 'Works for School and Clothes', and Manuel Silva the farm labourer.
Isaac Davis' home was a busy one.

By 1880 William Davis and wife Sophia have two kiddies, a daughter Alice and a son they name Isaac. This time William is entered on the Census as a 'Meat Pedlar'. Wilcox, hIs father-in-law, lives with them:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MH69-13F

Their son David Wilcox Davis was born in Worcester in 1882, so perhaps William Davis relocated for a while?

At the time of Morse's visit in 1892 William now has the three children - daughter Alice is 17, his son Isaac is 14 and David is 10. William and Sophia have been married 20 years and William is not co-habiting with Morse.

Isaac Davis died just a few months later in January 1893 of 'Carcinoma' - he didn't live to see the outcome of Lizzie's trial. We don't just have Morse's word for it that Isaac died of cancer - it's on his death record:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N7B9-99C

It seems natural to me that Morse was visiting the Davis family not because they were all planning to kill Bordens but because Isaac was dying, this man he'd known over 40 years. He couldn't expect to make that journey again and find him alive. Morse was fond of him. He was shaving the incapacitated Isaac:

'Upon being questioned, Mr. Davis said that for several weeks he (Morse) had talked of purchasing a pair of cattle of Mr. Borden, and on Thursday, after shaving Mr. Davis, he (Morse) started on foot to take the electric car for the city, intending to take the train for Fall River. A daughter of Mr. Davis, who was present during this conversation, stated that Morse wore a light gray suit and that it was his intention of returning home last night. Continuing, Mr. Davis said Morse was to have purchased additional cattle while away, and that he also expected to run over to Warren to see his uncle. His purchases were to have been brought home with him.'
Evening Standard August 5 [?] 1892, pg. 4.

I must find out which uncle this is in Warren... The 1885 Rhode Island turns up a John V. Morse living with an Uncle Charles, and I know he had an Uncle Charles...

William died 7 years after his father, also of cancer, aged 48. The cause of death is 'Cancer of Neck. Deposit in brain.'
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NW81-CPL
On their death records the occupation of both father and son is 'Farmer'.

William Davis came from a respectable farming family; I see no reason to identify him as the 'scruffy' man of the Witness Statements who is dark-complexioned and likened to a 'gypsy'. Why was Davis ever incriminated by past forum theorists? Simply because he could butcher livestock? Simply because Morse was visiting his family? All I can find in the 'theory' is a misinterpretation of contemporary accounts and some garbled 'medical facts', whereby 'Cancer of neck' leads to the posthumous diagnosis of alcoholism, a slanted walk, a raised shoulder and all round mad-dog psychopathy.

There is an interesting assertion that 'William and Sophia Davis inherited half of the Bordens' farmhouse on Gardiners Neck Road' - I'm trying to find if this was ever demonstrated to be true. It was Lincoln who first claimed Borden reneged on a promise to sell the Swansea farm to Morse... But Morse had long since made his wealth. He'd no need of money. Why kill for half-share of a farm? While William Davis is supposed to kill for the money isn't he? Or is there some more obscure motive of revenge? Or is he slaughtering Bordens to get a farm?

After Isaac and William are both dead we can see their widows in the Census. Their fortunes don't improve. If anything their economic situation looks worse.

Isaac's widow Julia moves in with daughter Emma:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M95J-8NC

Sophia takes over the job of 'Farmer' while her 21-year-old son Isaac is peddling milk. (No, he's not 'in the meat business'!)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M95J-TTV

The Davis family had cows! They could have poisoned the Bordens with milk and saved themselves a lot of effort.

Just 4* years after the murders... When William's daughter Alice married her plumber in 1896, she tried adding 'Borden' into her name. There had been a Borden in her mother's family many many generations back but 'Borden' didn't appear in Sarah's birth or death records or anywhere else on her records at all. I think she was 21 and thought it would sound more fancy, 'Alice Parker Borden Davis Smith'.
She certainly can't have suspected her father of being the Bordens' killer, can she? We must assume Davis and Morse did no plotting in the Dartmouth home. I don't personally think Davis and Morse did their plotting in bed, either.

Sophia and her daughters are really long-lived women. Sophia is still alive in 1940, now 85, and living with her daughter Alice, son-in-law Frank Smith - and all in the same house - with son Isaac and his family:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K4XS-S62
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K4XS-S6F

I think they all continued to live in the same properties as at the time of the murders, chiefly 771 on what is now Dartmouth Street, and that their homes still stand.
William's wife Sophia died in 1947. His daughter Alice died in 1970, at the age of 95:
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.c ... =114045255

William had children, his sisters Sarah, Emma and Amelia all had children, and these children had children of their own. There's a lot of the family out there - beyond the theorists' armchairs.

* (Edit because i cannot count.)
Last edited by InterestedReader on Wed May 10, 2017 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Davis Family

Post by KGDevil »

InterestedReader wrote:It helps to know something about a man, before we announce for a certainty he was a hit-man paid to slaughter people. So perhaps we should take the trouble to look at a few records for what they tell us of the facts. At least they clear away confusion over the names.

William A. Davis is born the 6th of August 1851, in Darthmouth to Isaac C. Davis and his wife Julia Baker Davis. Isaac is a 'Butcher':

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FXC3-2LJ
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q29G-YWHJ

Here is Isaac and his family in the 1855 Census - daughters Emilia, Emma and Sarah, son William, now 4, and John V. Morse:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQ42-PNS

At this point Isaac is 37 and Morse 22.
It's perfectly possible that Davis took on Morse before his son's birth, when with 3 daughters and no son as yet, Davis might think he wasn't going to get one. Clearly the two men developed a semi-familial bond; Morse would later describe the Davis household as 'like home to me'. In 1855, Morse's mother was already dead and his own father had remarried.
It's said that Morse was apprenticed to be a butcher. In the Census, however, Morse is listed as a 'Farmer'.

Isaac C. Davis, 'Butcher', in 1860, son William A. Davis is 9:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MZH6-SLQ

In the 1865 Census Isaac is 47 and Julia is 43. The three daughters are still at home, and William is 14. Isaac still a 'Butcher':
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQHJ-5GL

In 1870 Isaac is 52, a 'Butcher', and William is 19, now a 'Butcher' too. William's elder sister Amelia is a 'Clerk in a Store'. Only two daughters at home this time, Amelia and young Sarah, a year William's junior:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MDSK-WJY

In 1873 William Davis marries Sophia Wilcox. She is 19, he is 22 - which doesn't suggest a disinclination for marriage on William's part:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NWB6-X76

The Wilcox family were neighbours. All the Davis children marry into neighbouring farming families and one can see this Dartmouth community was a close-knit one.
William and Sophia are married by a 'Minister of the Gospel' - does that tell us William's particular faith?
Their 'Marriage Notice':
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FC91-4XR

I wonder if Morse ever had designs on one of William's sisters, Amelia, Emma or Sarah? But by 1883 all three were married.

Isaac's now huge household in 1880:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MH69-5LY
Isaac, Julia, daughter Sarah, daughter Amelia and her husband Wanton (!) Beauvais, daughter Emma and her husband Samuel Tucker, their daughter and Isaac's granddaughter Margaret, Betsey Baker who is Isaac's mother-in-law, a little chap of 14 called John Harris who 'Works for School and Clothes', and Manuel Silva the farm labourer.
Isaac Davis' home was a busy one.

By 1880 William Davis and wife Sophia have two kiddies, a daughter Alice and a son they name Isaac. This time William is entered on the Census as a 'Meat Pedlar'. Wilcox, hIs father-in-law, lives with them:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MH69-13F

Their son David Wilcox Davis was born in Worcester in 1882, so perhaps William Davis relocated for a while?

At the time of Morse's visit in 1892 William now has the three children - daughter Alice is 17, his son Isaac is 14 and David is 10. William and Sophia have been married 20 years and William is not co-habiting with Morse.

Isaac Davis died just a few months later in January 1893 of 'Carcinoma' - he didn't live to see the outcome of Lizzie's trial. We don't just have Morse's word for it that Isaac died of cancer - it's on his death record:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N7B9-99C

It seems natural to me that Morse was visiting the Davis family not because they were all planning to kill Bordens but because Isaac was dying, this man he'd known over 40 years. He couldn't expect to make that journey again and find him alive. Morse was fond of him. He was shaving the incapacitated Isaac:

'Upon being questioned, Mr. Davis said that for several weeks he (Morse) had talked of purchasing a pair of cattle of Mr. Borden, and on Thursday, after shaving Mr. Davis, he (Morse) started on foot to take the electric car for the city, intending to take the train for Fall River. A daughter of Mr. Davis, who was present during this conversation, stated that Morse wore a light gray suit and that it was his intention of returning home last night. Continuing, Mr. Davis said Morse was to have purchased additional cattle while away, and that he also expected to run over to Warren to see his uncle. His purchases were to have been brought home with him.'
Evening Standard August 5 [?] 1892, pg. 4.

I must find out which uncle this is in Warren... The 1885 Rhode Island turns up a John V. Morse living with an Uncle Charles, and I know he had an Uncle Charles...

William died 7 years after his father, also of cancer, aged 48. The cause of death is 'Cancer of Neck. Deposit in brain.'
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NW81-CPL
On their death records the occupation of both father and son is 'Farmer'.

William Davis came from a respectable farming family; I see no reason to identify him as the 'scruffy' man of the Witness Statements who is dark-complexioned and likened to a 'gypsy'. Why was Davis ever incriminated by past forum theorists? Simply because he could butcher livestock? Simply because Morse was visiting his family? All I can find in the 'theory' is a misinterpretation of contemporary accounts and some garbled 'medical facts', whereby 'Cancer of neck' leads to the posthumous diagnosis of alcoholism, a slanted walk, a raised shoulder and all round mad-dog psychopathy.

There is an interesting assertion that 'William and Sophia Davis inherited half of the Bordens' farmhouse on Gardiners Neck Road' - I'm trying to find if this was ever demonstrated to be true. It was Lincoln who first claimed Borden reneged on a promise to sell the Swansea farm to Morse... But Morse had long since made his wealth. He'd no need of money. Why kill for half-share of a farm? While William Davis is supposed to kill for the money isn't he? Or is there some more obscure motive of revenge? Or is he slaughtering Bordens to get a farm?

After Isaac and William are both dead we can see their widows in the Census. Their fortunes don't improve. If anything their economic situation looks worse.

Isaac's widow Julia moves in with daughter Emma:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M95J-8NC

Sophia takes over the job of 'Farmer' while her 21-year-old son Isaac is peddling milk. (No, he's not 'in the meat business'!)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M95J-TTV

The Davis family had cows! They could have poisoned the Bordens with milk and saved themselves a lot of effort.

Just 3 years after the murders... When William's daughter Alice married her plumber in 1896, she tried adding 'Borden' into her name. There had been a Borden in her mother's family many many generations back but 'Borden' didn't appear in Sarah's birth or death records or anywhere else on her records at all. I think she was 21 and thought it would sound more fancy, 'Alice Parker Borden Davis Smith'.
She certainly can't have suspected her father of being the Bordens' killer, can she? We must assume Davis and Morse did no plotting in the Dartmouth home. I don't personally think Davis and Morse did their plotting in bed, either.

Sophia and her daughters are really long-lived women. Sophia is still alive in 1940, now 85, and living with her daughter Alice, son-in-law Frank Smith - and all in the same house - with son Isaac and his family:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K4XS-S62
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K4XS-S6F

I think they all continued to live in the same properties as at the time of the murders, chiefly 771 on what is now Dartmouth Street, and that their homes still stand.
William's wife Sophia died in 1947. His daughter Alice died in 1970, at the age of 95:
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.c ... =114045255

William had children, his sisters Sarah, Emma and Amelia all had children, and these children had children of their own. There's a lot of the family out there - beyond the theorists' armchairs.
Thank you for posting all of that information Interested! It certainly is very enlightening having all of that information here in one place in this thread. I have never understood why, besides the training as a butcher, that Isaac or his son were ever suspected. It takes quite a bit of a reach for that theory. Uncle John became acquainted with the butcher trade almost 40 years before the murders. It was not even a trade that he stuck with at all as he abandoned it rather quickly. Although he was never married, Morse never did live alone. He traveled around quite frequently, a good deal from Iowa to Massachusetts, even as far away as California after the murders, and was a guest as often as he had guests in his own home. He frequently was reported as traveling with different companions. This doesn't sound like a man who was entirely unagreeable company. He did quite a bit of visiting around just during his visit to Fall River. This seems to be natural for him. He seemed to prefer having company to being alone, no matter how morose and gloomy he may have been described as being. He seems to have formed some very lasting relationship bonds over his lifetime as well. He and Andrew seemed to share a good friendship. Even consulting on business matters. The fact that John would be coming to Fall River to help Andrew buy livestock for his farm in the first place suggests that. Why ask John for help with his farm at all if he wasn't a trusted friend? Being frugal with one's money does not necessarily give a person the character for murder. Morse was not in need of money as he'd been a successful farmer and owned over 200 ares of land, that we know of, long before the murders. Wearing the same suit of clothes doesn't necessarily make one a pauper. Eccentric maybe, but not necessarily poor. And no matter what anyone said of him the consensus was that he was scrupulously honest man.
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Morse living with a woman,,,

Post by InterestedReader »

KG, what do you make of that entry in the 1865 Macoupin Census?
I posted an image of it above.
Does it mean three occupants? Morse, one female, one child?
I'm not yet sure how to read these earlier ones, but you will know how.
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Re: Morse living with a woman,,,

Post by KGDevil »

oops double post. :oops:
Last edited by KGDevil on Wed May 10, 2017 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Morse living with a woman,,,

Post by KGDevil »

KGDevil wrote:
InterestedReader wrote:KG, what do you make of that entry in the 1865 Macoupin Census?
I posted an image of it above.
Does it mean three occupants? Morse, one female, one child?
I'm not yet sure how to read these earlier ones, but you will know how.
Usually the census lists counted everyone living in the household in the columns. So, I assume it includes Morse. The break down of these columns can vary from state to state. These early census lists also did not distinguish between family, friends, boarders, etc. Some of the lists did distinguish slaves, but not every state included that column. For the most part it was just a bare bones count of whoever happened to be living in the household at the time. Which is one of the things that makes tracking families a little tougher with these earlier census lists.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by KGDevil »

I found Anthony, Hannah, Arabella, and Sarah M. in the 1870 census of Macoupin, Illinois.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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In 1870, John Morse and his brother Alverade (Alverado) are living in Indian Creek Township, Iowa with John Davidson.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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Thanks. What I'm not quite sure of is - Does the Head of the Household get his name on the left, and a mark in the columns?

Yes, I've also found the rest of the family. On the 1865, they're all with Anthony or 'A. Morse', down at the foot of the page, last name. From that it looks like Anthony does have his name on the left and a mark on the right.

So we would read John V. Morse's 1865 entry as -

Morse (between 30 and 40 years of age)
One female between 20 and 30
One female child under 10.

Just the three of them?

I'm searching to see if Morse fathered a daughter between 1855 and 1865.
He doesn't need to be married to accomplish that, and there's enough material stating he didn't care for organised religion or how others might judge him!
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by InterestedReader »

KGDevil wrote:In 1870, John Morse and his brother Alverade (Alverado) are living in Indian Creek Township, Iowa with John Davidson.
Yes, I saw the 1870 too!

Rebello has Morse 'living with the Davidson family' in 1870, but that isn't quite the case. When he moves to Iowa the 1870 Census finds him living with his half-brother Alvarado, and the man who was to marry his half-sister Arabella - John Davidson. (Back in Illinois the Davidsons owned the farm next to Morse's.) So again, it looks as if Morse did not embark on Iowa alone but with his brother and future brother-in-law. :smile:
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Re: Odds & Ends

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Right Interested. In 1880 it shows John Davidson living with John Morse, now listed as his brother - in- law, in Indian Creek, Mills, Iowa with his wife, John Morse's sister, Arabella Davidson.
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Re:

Post by KGDevil »

InterestedReader wrote:KG, does John V. have an Uncle Charles Morse?

I'm wondering if John Vinnicum is in Bristol, Rhode Island in 1885.
There's one in the Census exact right age, born in Massachusetts, living with an Uncle Charles:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M5FS-T3L

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M5FS-T86

(I know John is already in the Iowa Census in 1885, and here in the UK you only get in a Census once! but I've now followed quite a few Borden people enumerated twice in two different places, so all I know is this was a phenomenon.)
InterestedReader, I was a little confused by this information that you posted about the 1885 census. Which is why is took me a bit to answer. The two links that you provided are for two different households. One is for a Charles Morse who is listed as head of household, but there is no John V. Morse in the household. The other is for the household of Samuel S. Monroe, head of household, with a nephew named John V. Morse.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by InterestedReader »

Lord, I find this kind of Census difficult.

I'm seeing a John V. Morse
District Number 180
Family Number 174
Number in Family 5

And a Charles Morse
District Number 180
Family Number 174
Number in Family 5

As if they are the same family. Family Number 174, 5 in the family.

No?
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