Odds & Ends

This the place to have frank, but cordial, discussions of the Lizzie Borden case

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KGDevil
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by KGDevil »

Interested, if you look at the documents themselves, and how the families are listed, you will see what I mean. It goes by the head of the household, and then shows the relationship each member of the household has to the head of the household. Charles Morse is listed as the head of the household, but I see no other members in his actual household. John V. Morse is listed under Samuel S. Monroe, head of household, as his nephew. For him to be in the same household as Charles Morse, he would be listed just below Charles in the census, and the relationship he had to Charles would be listed.

For example:

Charles Morse - head
(line below) John V. Morse - nephew.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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Thank-you, KG. Yes, what you describe is the usual manner of ordering the data, and how I'm used to reading it. I must be thick as two planks but it seems to be ordered differently here. The succession of names seems roughly alphabetical.

I see Samuel S. Monroe, but he and everyone below him have different Family Numbers. Also, Samuel S. Monroe has only '2' people in his household. 'Benjamin Mott' doesn't sound like his brother. And how can Henry Monro, 79, be a 'Father' to the Head of Household Samuel S. Monroe, 73? How can John V. Morse be in Samuel S. Monroe's house when they have different District Numbers?

In the entire 1885 Rhode Island Census there are precisely 5 people with a notation of 'Family 174', in 'District 180'. Those 5 people each have their 'Number in Family 5'. Those 5 people are all named Morse. There are the two we've seen, Charles Morse and John V. Morse, and then:

Mary Morse
'Wife', aged 73,
District 180
Family 174
Number in Family 5
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M5F3-SDH

Henrietta Morse,
'Daughter', aged 42,
District 180
Family 174
Number in Family 5
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M5F3-S9J

Elizabeth Morse
'Daughter', aged 47,
District 180
Family 174
Number in Family 5
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M5F3-3WR


Their names are all in different places in the Census, they don't appear together, and although I cannot imagine why anyone would think this a good system, I think they must make up 'Family 174’.

So it's Charles Morse, wife Mary, daughters Henrietta and Elizabeth, and John V. Morse, nephew.

I'm finding a perfect match in the Census of other years. Here's 1860, 1870 and 1880.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MFFF-SBL
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MFFW-WC9
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M4SJ-HCC

Excepting that 'Nephew John V. Morse' wasn't there on the other occasions, just the 1885.

A Morse Family History site confirms that Charles Morse was indeed John's uncle.
(I don't think this features so much on the popular ancestry websites).
I suspect that this Charles Morse is John's uncle, and what's more the very one he speaks of visiting in Warren. Here's why:

His father Anthony Morse did have a brother Charles, born around 1809 to Joseph and Sarah Vinnicum Morse.
Right, so Anthony Morse and this Charles Morse were brothers.
Rhoda Morrison and Mary Morrison were sisters, who married these two brothers!
Rhoda Morrison married Anthony Morse and they produced John V. Morse.
Mary Morrison married Charles Morse.

So when John V. Morse visits Charles and Mary Morse of Bristol, Rhode Island, he's visiting both his mother's sister and his father's brother.
Charles and Mary Morse are his Double uncle and aunt.

(Also, this Charles is related to Morse's Aunt Catherine Boudray, the one he says he visits in 1892.)

But the biggest indication is - this Charles Morse is later found living in Warren:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M972-SF9

I think this is useful, because when Morse tells of his intention to visit that uncle in Warren, we can put a precise address to the destination. And we can probably assume that this Charles Morse was in Warren in 1892 -

From the Knowlton Papers, and the so-called Sanity Survey, the 74-year-old Rescome Case:
'...I use to know Anthony, father of Lizzies mother. He has a brother now living in Warren, Massachusetts...'

If Henrietta and Elizabeth are Morse's cousins, like him they do not marry. Henrietta Morse did have something of a vocation, unlike Lizzie; for a time, she was a teacher.
Charles Morse was a mason.

And I apologise if he was in Warren all along - I don't have detailed knowledge of American geography.

So - if this is John V. Morse in Rhode Island in 1885 it just further demonstrates he moved around an awful lot. As you say, KG.
Perhaps he spent 7 years in the locality planning the murders... :smile:
Last edited by InterestedReader on Thu May 11, 2017 6:35 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by KGDevil »

NancyDrew wrote:InterestedReader: Ok let me pick up just a few of the odds & ends here. Emma lived for quite a while at Minden Hall, or Minden Apartments, or whatever it was called; it is a giant, multi-storied building with the word "MINDEN" engraved in stone over the doorway. There are a couple of older threads here devoted to it, and a picture on this one: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3462&hilit=minden.

I've driven past The Minden hundreds of times and never knew its significance. I guess it has gone through lots of changes, and currently, from what I understand, it's a dormitory for Brown University students, located on the very elite East-Side of Providence (gorgeous mansions and houses there; it's a college town, but a wealthy one.) Emma lived in apt #80, and the Gardners lived in #79. I want to know more about the Gardners; they were recipients in her will (which I have a copy of; in a Word Document; how do I paste that here? )

Hiram Harrington: I don't know much about him, except that he was married to Andrew's sister and he and Lizzie didn't like each other. i will delve into this further when I have more time; I'm sure it's been discussed here before but it is fun to look at things with a pair of fresh eyes.

snokkums: Yes, I really wonder about Lizzie. She dropped out of school; WHY? I've read articles that describe her as very shy and uncomfortable in her own skin; someone who didn't make friends easily. Emma went to college, correct? I wonder if EITHER of them thought about a career. They obviously were not "the marrying kind" so what in the world did think they were going to do with their lives? I've often wondered about Lizzie, what her daily life was like. Did she assume she would live a life of leisure, without purpose?

I'm showing my bias here. I like to work; it's important to me to do something, anything, with my life. I cannot fathom being someone who just sleeps late, spends money, entertains other rich, spoiled women, shops for new clothes, etc. (Wouldn't that be horribly boring??) My middle-class upbringing is showing, huh?
NancyDrew, you are talking about a different time, with different values. I think some people have a hard time relating to Lizzie's time because they see it through today's eyes. Back then women were thought of differently. The need for a woman to be educated was not stressed. Because it was expected that it was a man's duty to provide for her throughout her life. Whether it was her husband or a family member. It was a woman's duty to take care of home and hearth. They were the fairer sex. To be taken care of. It was a man's duty to provide. So, the fact that Andrew sent her to college at all speaks a lot about him in my opinion. But even at that, it was more of a finishing school, at the time, in my opinion. She was not exactly learning a trade that would carry her through life. It's more of a school where you learn the arts. Today Wheaton college, founded in 1860, is described as a Christian based liberal arts school.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by NancyDrew »

Interested: Excellent research; thank you! Wow, the Davis family was big. I think we have a better handle on Isaac Davis and William Davis now, and on why Morse lived with them, even for just a short while. They were, for lack of a better term, his family.

Okay, I've come full circle now. There is no obvious motive for Morse to have conspired to murder the Bordens. Money as motive just doesn't make sense. If Uncle John were involved in the tragedy at all, then, imo, there was something else entirely going on. What that was, I have no idea...
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by InterestedReader »

Robin, I do keep wondering if he was apprehensive on her behalf. That day - the signs of him being so that day - but something beyond the shock and concern natural to most men. Over and above the usual solicitude of a family-member - and it seems he continued to be worried about her all the way to the trial, although I've not yet read that she showed any gratitude or response to him at all. But it's almost like he returns to that house, finds Lizzie the eye of the storm, and isn't altogether surprised.

I sometimes wonder if everyone knew she wasn't right in the head but pretended otherwise, especially after August the 5th when they became even more determined to pretend otherwise. But Morse, whatever his strange ways, was he one of those straight people who can't or won't dissemble? Supposing he simply came back to the house, knew she'd done it, that somehow she had killed - and in a turmoil he felt some portion of guilt for not preventing it. So what people find incriminating in his response, was just Morse very distressed and blaming himself for not preventing this thing? I'm not suggesting they were all ganging up to send her to the funny farm but Morse seems to have been on good terms with Andrew (if not Abby, so much) so if he did look at those corpses and believe it was his neice's doing, believe her capable of it, he might blame himself for not realising sooner.

I think there's something going on between Morse and Lizzie - some kind of friction. At the Inquest she seems to be doing her damndest to establish her distance from him. You might say she just finds him an embarrassment - but when Knowlton questions her about Morse we sense she's in a panic.
And why does Morse see fit to tell everyone he tried the handle of her door, in the night before the crime - he tried the door but found it locked? Why was he trying the door to her room, in the night?

With William Davis, murdering for money - Have you noticed how his wife and three children usually don't get a mention? It's because they're four good reasons right there why he wouldn't be enthusiastic to kill two elderly folk. If he were caught, they'd be ruined, his wife and children. It was 1892 and that's how it was. They'd all carry the stigma of the crime, and they'd have a real job keeping that farm going.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by KGDevil »

All of your thoughts are interesting to ponder about John Morse's actions towards Lizzie, and about his behavior after the murders. I would like to throw in one more bit, just as a thought myself. Since it does seem that John Morse and Lizzie both hesitate to put themselves into each others company, or admit that there was any repertoire between the two, what if John Morse's solicitude towards Lizzie was simply an act of self preservation? It seems that before the murders they actually went out of the way to avoid each other. On more than one occasion. He does seem to have stayed on good terms with Emma. They kept up correspondence. We have his testimony about he and Mr. Davis's daughter spending the afternoon with Emma on July 10, 1892. Staying at the home to be there for Emma seems a natural response given what we know. What if he realized that he, as being one of the last people to see the Borden's alive that day, not being on Lizzie's good side, and probably suspecting her, could potentially be thrown under the bus? He might want to be kind to one of the people who could in essence, throw him under the bus and put suspicion onto him at any time during the trial and afterward.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by KGDevil »

I have not had the time in the last few days to go into my research as thoroughly as I normally do. I've been a little distracted. I've had some family issues going on that I've had to take care of recently, so I'm still playing catch up with my own research. Forgive me for being a little behind in the conversation. I haven't gotten to read all of the earlier replies in the threads. I've just gone through the most recent replies. Last night I caught myself up. But I'd like to also add this information that I found in an available Google book called 'Our Country and Its People: A Descriptive and Biographical Record of Bristol County, Massachusetts, Part 2.' It was written in 1899, and this information is on page 69.


https://books.google.com/books?id=NFqqk ... &q&f=false
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Re: Odds & Ends

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InterestedReader wrote:Thank-you, KG. Yes, what you describe is the usual manner of ordering the data, and how I'm used to reading it. I must be thick as two planks but it seems to be ordered differently here. The succession of names seems roughly alphabetical.

I see Samuel S. Monroe, but he and everyone below him have different Family Numbers. Also, Samuel S. Monroe has only '2' people in his household. 'Benjamin Mott' doesn't sound like his brother. And how can Henry Monro, 79, be a 'Father' to the Head of Household Samuel S. Monroe, 73? How can John V. Morse be in Samuel S. Monroe's house when they have different District Numbers?

In the entire 1885 Rhode Island Census there are precisely 5 people with a notation of 'Family 174', in 'District 180'. Those 5 people each have their 'Number in Family 5'. Those 5 people are all named Morse. There are the two we've seen, Charles Morse and John V. Morse, and then:

Mary Morse
'Wife', aged 73,
District 180
Family 174
Number in Family 5
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M5F3-SDH

Henrietta Morse,
'Daughter', aged 42,
District 180
Family 174
Number in Family 5
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M5F3-S9J

Elizabeth Morse
'Daughter', aged 47,
District 180
Family 174
Number in Family 5
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M5F3-3WR


Their names are all in different places in the Census, they don't appear together, and although I cannot imagine why anyone would think this a good system, I think they must make up 'Family 174’.

So it's Charles Morse, wife Mary, daughters Henrietta and Elizabeth, and John V. Morse, nephew.

I'm finding a perfect match in the Census of other years. Here's 1860, 1870 and 1880.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MFFF-SBL
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MFFW-WC9
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M4SJ-HCC

Excepting that 'Nephew John V. Morse' wasn't there on the other occasions, just the 1885.

A Morse Family History site confirms that Charles Morse was indeed John's uncle.
(I don't think this features so much on the popular ancestry websites).
I suspect that this Charles Morse is John's uncle, and what's more the very one he speaks of visiting in Warren. Here's why:

His father Anthony Morse did have a brother Charles, born around 1809 to Joseph and Sarah Vinnicum Morse.
Right, so Anthony Morse and this Charles Morse were brothers.
Rhoda Morrison and Mary Morrison were sisters, who married these two brothers!
Rhoda Morrison married Anthony Morse and they produced John V. Morse.
Mary Morrison married Charles Morse.

So when John V. Morse visits Charles and Mary Morse of Bristol, Rhode Island, he's visiting both his mother's sister and his father's brother.
Charles and Mary Morse are his Double uncle and aunt.

(Also, this Charles is related to Morse's Aunt Catherine Boudray, the one he says he visits in 1892.)

But the biggest indication is - this Charles Morse is later found living in Warren:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M972-SF9

I think this is useful, because when Morse tells of his intention to visit that uncle in Warren, we can put a precise address to the destination. And we can probably assume that this Charles Morse was in Warren in 1892 -

From the Knowlton Papers, and the so-called Sanity Survey, the 74-year-old Rescome Case:
'...I use to know Anthony, father of Lizzies mother. He has a brother now living in Warren, Massachusetts...'

If Henrietta and Elizabeth are Morse's cousins, like him they do not marry. Henrietta Morse did have something of a vocation, unlike Lizzie; for a time, she was a teacher.
Charles Morse was a mason.

And I apologise if he was in Warren all along - I don't have detailed knowledge of American geography.

So - if this is John V. Morse in Rhode Island in 1885 it just further demonstrates he moved around an awful lot. As you say, KG.
Perhaps he spent 7 years in the locality planning the murders... :smile:
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by KGDevil »

Seems to be the death record for this particular Mary Morse.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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image.jpg
That, is a marvellous find.

I'd been wondering as much, just from the glimpses and shapes suggested by vital records. I do get a sense of the family being respectable people. The 'theories' depict them as criminal scum. This story-telling by conjecture wouldn't pass as fiction but there's a brand of amateur 'criminology' which blackens names and is seen as a game, unbound by common decency.

That sounded pompous but I've waded through the stuff arguing William Davis is the scruffy drunk of the Witness Statements, and it is rubbish.

I'm just realising how bad a time of it Morse was having. Right then, when the murders happened. Let's suppose he was fond of Isaac Davis, who was something of a father to him. He's seeing Isaac wasted by cancer. But there's another death even more immediately upon him.

His aunt Mary died July the 31st 1892.
Just 4 days before the murders.

You know how we hear of Morse intending to go to Warren to see his uncle? Well the Uncle Charles is his father's brother and Aunt Mary is his mother's sister. Rhoda and Mary Morrison, the two sisters, married Anthony and Charles Morse, the two brothers.

Morse was just 10 when his mother died. So her sister Mary may well have become a person of significance to him. It's looking as if Morse boarded with his Uncle Charles and Aunt Mary, in Rhode Island, at various points throughout his life.
Mary and Charles were both elderly people now, she 80 and he 82. I haven't yet found her death certificate - she probably died an expected death of old age.

But when Morse was planning to 'go over to Warren', this was the situation - another person close to death. She dies, and when Morse stands in the yard at Second Street four days later, eating pears in a way everyone finds suspicious, perhaps he was miserable.

These might have been dark days for Morse, don't you think?

Incidentally, these cousins Henrietta and Elizabeth Morse, are the ones who chipped in with their two'pennorth:

'Lizzie has always been a peculiar woman and...her entire life had been characterized by the calm and cool demeanor which is considered evidence of guilt by the police.'
Fall River Daily Herald, August 11 1892.

Uncle Charles and Elizabeth both died in 1900.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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There, you've found the death record!
Proof.

I'd only found the grave:

https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.c ... =153925602&
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Re: Odds & Ends

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The death record of Catherine Morrison Boodry, John Morse's Aunt that he mentioned in his testimony, in Fall River on February 14, 1899. She is widowed, born in Somerset, Massachusetts in 1813. Parents listed as James Morrison and Mary Whitewell. Husband Joseph Boodry. Address 1038 Stafford Road.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by dalcanton »

NancyDrew - thank you for starting a wonderful topic...er...topics! I've been enjoying everyone's input. May I piggyback & add a few things I've always wondered about?

1) What was Lizzie's reaction to Abby having been found dead? If Lizzie were innocent, was it shock? Disbelief? Did she feel bad at all despite their strained relationship? The woman was, after all, found butchered. If Lizzie were guilty, did she feign surprise? Did she pretend to be upset? What was her immediate reaction to the news - fake or otherwise?

2) When Lizzie was arrested in her home, Emma commented, "Well, we tried to keep it from her for as long as we could." What exactly did she mean? Who was "we?" Had Emma been tipped off about Lizzie's impending arrest? Had Dr. Bowen known, too? Bridget? Alice Russell? Mrs. Churchill? I always found Emma's comment to be a bit odd.

3) That laugh on the stair that Bridget heard when she was unlocking the front door for Mr. Borden. Was it Lizzie? Why would Lizzie laugh? Depending on her state of mind (guilty or innocent), what was the purpose of her laugh?
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Re: Odds & Ends

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Morse arrives at the Bordens on the 3rd, but where has he just come from?
Do we know this? I can't remember.
You'd think he'd go to aunt Mary Morse's funeral...
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Re: Odds & Ends

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KGDevil wrote:All of your thoughts are interesting to ponder about John Morse's actions towards Lizzie, and about his behavior after the murders. I would like to throw in one more bit, just as a thought myself. Since it does seem that John Morse and Lizzie both hesitate to put themselves into each others company, or admit that there was any repertoire between the two, what if John Morse's solicitude towards Lizzie was simply an act of self preservation? It seems that before the murders they actually went out of the way to avoid each other. On more than one occasion. He does seem to have stayed on good terms with Emma. They kept up correspondence. We have his testimony about he and Mr. Davis's daughter spending the afternoon with Emma on July 10, 1892. Staying at the home to be there for Emma seems a natural response given what we know. What if he realized that he, as being one of the last people to see the Borden's alive that day, not being on Lizzie's good side, and probably suspecting her, could potentially be thrown under the bus? He might want to be kind to one of the people who could in essence, throw him under the bus and put suspicion onto him at any time during the trial and afterward.
Yes, it's worth considering the problem along these lines.

I just find it very hard to believe these murders were premeditated on Lizzie's part, there are so many features which argue against premeditation, and Morse's arrival is a whopping big monster of a hindrance. The day before she didn't know he was coming, if I understand it right. On the day itself she doesn't know what time he'll walk back in through the door. If Lizzie had a plan wouldn't she delay it now Morse was in the way? She couldn't reasonably expect he'd take the blame - and one of the first things she said was that Morse couldn't have done it, he'd left the house...

But yes, if they planned it together they both need to be acting, Lizzie with the dislike, Morse with the concern - and just to make it easier, manage not to bump into each other at all.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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1) What was Lizzie's reaction to Abby having been found dead? If Lizzie were innocent, was it shock? Disbelief? Did she feel bad at all despite their strained relationship? The woman was, after all, found butchered. If Lizzie were guilty, did she feign surprise? Did she pretend to be upset? What was her immediate reaction to the news - fake or otherwise?

2) When Lizzie was arrested in her home, Emma commented, "Well, we tried to keep it from her for as long as we could." What exactly did she mean? Who was "we?" Had Emma been tipped off about Lizzie's impending arrest? Had Dr. Bowen known, too? Bridget? Alice Russell? Mrs. Churchill? I always found Emma's comment to be a bit odd.

3) That laugh on the stair that Bridget heard when she was unlocking the front door for Mr. Borden. Was it Lizzie? Why would Lizzie laugh? Depending on her state of mind (guilty or innocent), what was the purpose of her laugh?
Excellent questions, del.

1. Nowhere in Alice Russell's testimony does she state, nor was she asked, about Lizzie's reaction to finding out Mrs. Borden was upstairs, dead. Dr. Bowen only refers to her state after he returned from mailing the telegram, and by that time, Lizzie had moved from the dining room to the kitchen (and apparently back into the dining room breify), where women were fussing over her:

(from Dr. Bowen's trail testimony)

Q. Going back a little to the time when you went down stairs after you had viewed Mrs. Borden, will you tell me, if you
recollect, where you saw Miss Lizzie then?
A. Miss Lizzie was in the kitchen.
Q. Who were with her?
A. My wife, Mrs. Chuchill, Miss Russell, Bridget Sullivan.
Q. What were they doing
A. They were working her over. I don't--- fanning her and working her over. I don'tknowexactly what; rubbing her wrists and rubbing her head. I didn't pay particular attention to that part of it.
Q. Did you see her in the dining-roomat any time?
A. She went in a few minutes into the dining-room, and threw herself on the loungeat the end of the dining-room.
Q. Did you give her any direction then or shortly after that?
A. I told her at that time --- Miss Russell went in with her at that time, and I told her she better go to her room.
Q. And did she start to go there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did she go?
A. She went through the dining-roomand the corner of the sitting-roomand fronthall up stairs

I re-read Adelaide Churchhill trial testimony and no where does anyone ask her about Lizzie's demeanour after being told of her step-mother's demise.

I guess we can only assume, due to all the fanning, and rubbing of wrists, and cold bathing of the forehead, that Lizzie was somber, in shock, somewhat disoriented. No one allowed her to walk or stand on her own. When Dr. B. told her to go upstairs, Alice went with her, and it was then that Lizzie mentioned she wanted Winwood at the undertaker.

2. Yes, I've wondered about Emma's comment myself. There is no other meaning that can be taken from: She and possibly others, expected Lizzie to be arrested. Maybe because of murmurings outside, or newspaper articles? Had they already retained a laywer then? (I don't think they had.)

3. Lizzie's laugh: I belive Bridget heard Lizzie laugh and I believe it was from upstairs, or at least on the stairs, in view of the front door. Was "p'shaw" actually what Bridgette said? Was this so horrible an utterance that it prompted a giggle from Lizzie? I've always assume Bridget cleaned up her language for the trial...were servants allowed to use actual swear words? Could she have said "Sh*t!" or "Damn!."????

All good stuff.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by KGDevil »

InterestedReader wrote:Morse arrives at the Bordens on the 3rd, but where has he just come from?
Do we know this? I can't remember.
You'd think he'd go to aunt Mary Morse's funeral...
Interested, according to the information provided both by the death certificate, and from the information on findagrave that you posted, Mary Morse died on July 31, 1891. The murders took place in 1892.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by KGDevil »

InterestedReader wrote:
KGDevil wrote:All of your thoughts are interesting to ponder about John Morse's actions towards Lizzie, and about his behavior after the murders. I would like to throw in one more bit, just as a thought myself. Since it does seem that John Morse and Lizzie both hesitate to put themselves into each others company, or admit that there was any repertoire between the two, what if John Morse's solicitude towards Lizzie was simply an act of self preservation? It seems that before the murders they actually went out of the way to avoid each other. On more than one occasion. He does seem to have stayed on good terms with Emma. They kept up correspondence. We have his testimony about he and Mr. Davis's daughter spending the afternoon with Emma on July 10, 1892. Staying at the home to be there for Emma seems a natural response given what we know. What if he realized that he, as being one of the last people to see the Borden's alive that day, not being on Lizzie's good side, and probably suspecting her, could potentially be thrown under the bus? He might want to be kind to one of the people who could in essence, throw him under the bus and put suspicion onto him at any time during the trial and afterward.
Yes, it's worth considering the problem along these lines.

I just find it very hard to believe these murders were premeditated on Lizzie's part, there are so many features which argue against premeditation, and Morse's arrival is a whopping big monster of a hindrance. The day before she didn't know he was coming, if I understand it right. On the day itself she doesn't know what time he'll walk back in through the door. If Lizzie had a plan wouldn't she delay it now Morse was in the way? She couldn't reasonably expect he'd take the blame - and one of the first things she said was that Morse couldn't have done it, he'd left the house...

But yes, if they planned it together they both need to be acting, Lizzie with the dislike, Morse with the concern - andu just to make it easier, manage not to bump into each other at all.
Morse spent over a year at one point, by his own admission, living with the Bordens. You can get to learn a good deal about a person's normal habits in a year.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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KGDevil wrote:
InterestedReader wrote:Morse arrives at the Bordens on the 3rd, but where has he just come from?
Do we know this? I can't remember.
You'd think he'd go to aunt Mary Morse's funeral...
Interested, according to the information provided both by the death certificate, and from the information on findagrave that you posted, Mary Morse died on July 31, 1891. The murders took place in 1892.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Numbers are not my strong point.

KG, I realise where I went wrong. There are some Morse family trees and a Morse family research site where '1892’ is given as her death year. It's wrong.
That's the first time I've gone off FamilySearch, where you're basically working from the pure data of the records themselves. Very preferable :smile:
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Re: Odds & Ends

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NancyDrew wrote:Interested: Excellent research; thank you! Wow, the Davis family was big. I think we have a better handle on Isaac Davis and William Davis now, and on why Morse lived with them, even for just a short while. They were, for lack of a better term, his family.
One of the chaps living with Isaac, and married to William's sister Amelia, was a sailor, of French parentage, the wonderfully-named Wanton Beauvais. You can see from the Census there were a fair few families of French ancestry living around the Davis house but all the same, they do seem quite a mix, this big family.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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I'm never sure where to put these things when I find them. But this is the will of John V. Morse's father, Anthony Morse. In it he made provisions for Emma and Lizzie.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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John Morse's brother Fernando fought during the Civil War.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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There was a son born to Anthony Morse and Rhoda Morrison on January 10, 1827 named Frederick Augustus Morse. Frederick died in 1830.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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John's brother Alverado K. Morse is listed as an alumi for the University of Iowa.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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The last will and testament of Fernando Whitewell Morse.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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A much softer photograph of Selecta Morse Shaw.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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Will of Arabella Morse Davidson.
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Re: Odds & Ends

Post by Scott Crowder »

InterestedReader wrote:
KGDevil wrote:
I just find it very hard to believe these murders were premeditated on Lizzie's part, there are so many features which argue against premeditation, and Morse's arrival is a whopping big monster of a hindrance. The day before she didn't know he was coming, if I understand it right. On the day itself she doesn't know what time he'll walk back in through the door. If Lizzie had a plan wouldn't she delay it now Morse was in the way? She couldn't reasonably expect he'd take the blame - and one of the first things she said was that Morse couldn't have done it, he'd left the house...
And once again, proper policework 101. The guilty party actively tries to direct suspicion upon everyone else. Lizzie is immediately doing the exact opposite. She's most likely guilty.

Meanwhile, Bridget keeps framing Lizzie with every word out of her mouth....

We have NO PROOF at all that anyone laughed at the top of the stairs, only Bridget's word. And those words damn Lizzie.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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Scott:

So you do you think Bridget was lying when she said heard a laugh coming from LIzzie upstairs?

KGDevil: Do you find it surprising that John Morse's father included Emma and Lizzie in his will? I enlarged the photograph of the will and I can make out their names but its' unclear (to me) exactly what was bequeathed to them.

Question: It has been posted here that John Morse brought Lizzie her dinner (or supper, or whatever they called that meal) every single day she was incarcerated. I cannot find a citation to confirm this. If it IS true, it's very very strange. Lizzie went out of her way to avoid Uncle John when he came to visit on August 3rd. In fact, I find her behavior towards him to be outright rude.

1. She comes home from Alice Russell's the night before the murders. The Bordens are sitting up with company (Uncle John) and she doesn't go into the sitting room to say hello, even briefly. Even by 2017 standards, this would be considered rude.

2. He is staying in the guest room, which is only a few feet from her bedroom door. I've been to #92. It would be just downright weird to be in the room exactly next to his and NOT say anything, do anything, acknowledge his presence. No knock on the door "Uncle John, I didn't get a chance to greet you when I came in; how are you?" Nothing like that.

3. He gets up early, around the same time as the Morse's. But Lizzie doesn't arise until Uncle John has left. It seems as if she is going out of her way NOT to see him. Do others agree?

So my final comment on this particular 'odds & end' is: what was their relationship? Did he bring Lizzie her dinner while she was in jail? Did he scream "Lizzie!" and run into the house when he first arrived at 92 and heard of the murders?

Their relationship leave me with a lot of unanswered questions...
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Morse brings Lunch

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I'd posted that before but with the caveat it appeared in a contemporary newspaper.
I'll try and refind the newspaper article.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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NancyDrew wrote:Scott:



Question: It has been posted here that John Morse brought Lizzie her dinner (or supper, or whatever they called that meal) every single day she was incarcerated. I cannot find a citation to confirm this. If it IS true, it's very very strange. Lizzie went out of her way to avoid Uncle John when he came to visit on August 3rd. In fact, I find her behavior towards him to be outright rude.

.
I have only seen this information, so far, as coming from the newspapers of the time. I've seen several newspapers that reported little things like Emma bringing Lizzie her breakfast, and then John Morse bringing the usual basket meal for lunch. Or reporting that Morse brought Lizzie's dinner bucket. Emma arrived with Lizzie's breakfast. Things like that. One news report stated that John Morse had not been there to bring her breakfast or noon meal, but that all of Lizzie's meals did come from the Borden house. I've seen it said nowhere that he did this every single day. I'm unsure if that was the case if all we have is the little bits that appear in the newspapers. But, Lizzie did have to eat, and the food did have to arrive there somehow. That's my opinion on that subject :smile:
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Re: Odds & Ends

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NancyDrew wrote:Scott:



KGDevil: Do you find it surprising that John Morse's father included Emma and Lizzie in his will? I enlarged the photograph of the will and I can make out their names but its' unclear (to me) exactly what was bequeathed to them.
I don't find it surprising that he would include them in his will, they were his grandchildren. But I do find it surprising that they seem to be the only grandchildren included. I find that odd.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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At least one of John Morse's siblings thought enough of him to give him a namesake.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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NancyDrew wrote:Scott:

So you do you think Bridget was lying when she said heard a laugh coming from LIzzie upstairs?

KGDevil: Do you find it surprising that John Morse's father included Emma and Lizzie in his will? I enlarged the photograph of the will and I can make out their names but its' unclear (to me) exactly what was bequeathed to them.

Question: It has been posted here that John Morse brought Lizzie her dinner (or supper, or whatever they called that meal) every single day she was incarcerated. I cannot find a citation to confirm this. If it IS true, it's very very strange. Lizzie went out of her way to avoid Uncle John when he came to visit on August 3rd. In fact, I find her behavior towards him to be outright rude.

1. She comes home from Alice Russell's the night before the murders. The Bordens are sitting up with company (Uncle John) and she doesn't go into the sitting room to say hello, even briefly. Even by 2017 standards, this would be considered rude.

2. He is staying in the guest room, which is only a few feet from her bedroom door. I've been to #92. It would be just downright weird to be in the room exactly next to his and NOT say anything, do anything, acknowledge his presence. No knock on the door "Uncle John, I didn't get a chance to greet you when I came in; how are you?" Nothing like that.

3. He gets up early, around the same time as the Morse's. But Lizzie doesn't arise until Uncle John has left. It seems as if she is going out of her way NOT to see him. Do others agree?

So my final comment on this particular 'odds & end' is: what was their relationship? Did he bring Lizzie her dinner while she was in jail? Did he scream "Lizzie!" and run into the house when he first arrived at 92 and heard of the murders?

Their relationship leave me with a lot of unanswered questions...
It seems to me from all indications that Lizzie was not fond of John V. Morse. I think it could be for many of the same reasons that she was not fond of Abby. I remember Alice Russell stating in testimony that one of the reasons the girls resented Abby was because they felt she did not stand up for them enough with Andrew. John V. Morse was by most accounts doing quite well money wise. He had enough to travel around a good deal, he kept a small boat in New Bedford. He rented a horse to go on a day trip to the steamboat with Emma and Mr. Davis's daughter. But he was also the self denying kind of person who didn't spend money extravagantly. He wore the same suit until it was practically fall off of him. Lizzie was the type of person who wanted the finer clothes, to go on the trips to Europe, and the big house on French Street. To go to the opera and shows in Boston and meet the actors and actresses. It sounds as if she gave John Morse the silent treatment. This seems to be Emma and Lizzie's favorite punishment for anyone they were not on good terms with. There are statements from Abby's family members of Emma and Lizzie not speaking to them. We know they gave Abby and Andrew the silent treatment, even refusing to take meals with them. Lizzie rolled over and gave Emma the silent treatment after she felt she had "given her away" at the jail. Giving John Morse the same treatment doesn't seem out of character for her to me.

Emma was more quiet and reserved. She did not approve of Lizzie's behavior after the murders. She eventually left her for good never to speak to her again. She is the one who chose to write to John Morse. She went out and spent the day with him at least once not too long before the murders. John stayed at the house with Emma for quite some time after the murders. But we get no sense of John or Lizzie having any kind of a relationship.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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I forgot to mention that on the page with the birth record for Frederick Augustus Morse, several birth records for the children of Rhoda Morrison and Anthony Morse are listed. Rhoda Morrison's birth record is also the very first listing. This is from the Massachusetts Town and Vital Records Collection.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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Oops. My late nights when it's hard to sleep are showing. :oops: I thought I made an edit to my original post but I quoted myself. Sorry about that.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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These 'mediumship' stories in the 'press - were they a way to accuse a person without risk of libel?
Here's one of August the 15th. Within 10 days Andrew Borden's spirit has found himself a married couple of New Bedford 'mediums'. To name his killer.
And even as early as this the suspect described seems to be William Davis.
See what you think.
It's a strange thing - you wonder if it is just malicious gossip or if it is designed to intimidate Davis.
It's remarkably detailed gossip - which I imagine the reporters did collect in New Bedford.
(Davis did have three children, two boys and a girl.)

There's a very particular physical description of the killer which reads like those circulated by police or detectives. However in two respects it departs from the description of the 'Stranger' everyone was looking for who tried to persuade St Amaunt to carry him to New Bedford. Here he has a 'light complexion' and 'light blue eyes'. Not like a 'gypsy', more like a regular local. Here he's not 'scruffy', either.
But Andrew does accuse him of being a drunk who abuses his wife and family.

You'll see it gets really interesting with the killer's journey back to his home, which ends with him travelling along the South Shore Railroad toward Dartmouth.
The Davis family lived at the southern end of Dartmouth Street.
If anyone knows Massachusetts, what do they make of this route assigned to be the killer's?

Andrew can tell us his killer caught the 7.22 train at Kingston but he doesn't know what time he died... because he was asleep. (And because he might contradict forensic science).

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/ ... d-1/seq-2/
The Sun, New York - August 15 1892, p. 2

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Re: Odds & Ends

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InterestedReader wrote:These 'mediumship' stories in the 'press - were they a way to accuse a person without risk of libel?
Here's one of August the 15th. Within 10 days Andrew Borden's spirit has found himself a married couple of New Bedford 'mediums'. To name his killer.
And even as early as this the suspect described seems to be William Davis.
See what you think.
It's a strange thing - you wonder if it is just malicious gossip or if it is designed to intimidate Davis.
It's remarkably detailed gossip - which I imagine the reporters did collect in New Bedford.
(Davis did have three children, two boys and a girl.)

There's a very particular physical description of the killer which reads like those circulated by police or detectives. However in two respects it departs from the description of the 'Stranger' everyone was looking for who tried to persuade St Amaunt to carry him to New Bedford. Here he has a 'light complexion' and 'light blue eyes'. Not like a 'gypsy', more like a regular local. Here he's not 'scruffy', either.
But Andrew does accuse him of being a drunk who abuses his wife and family.

You'll see it gets really interesting with the killer's journey back to his home, which ends with him travelling along the South Shore Railroad toward Dartmouth.
The Davis family lived at the southern end of Dartmouth Street.
If anyone knows Massachusetts, what do they make of this route assigned to be the killer's?

Andrew can tell us his killer caught the 7.22 train at Kingston but he doesn't know what time he died... because he was asleep. (And because he might contradict forensic science).

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/ ... d-1/seq-2/
The Sun, New York - August 15 1892, p. 2

Click on the attachment to make big and readable.
Maybe accuse someone, or a way to interject themselves into the investigation as a way to legitimize their "gift". Either way I'd be interested to know if the police actually followed up on this "lead" with any enthusiam :smile:
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Re: Odds & Ends

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I've stumbled across the archives of a newspaper during my recent research called The Fitchburg Sentinel of Fitchburg, Massachusetts and have been reading through the August 1892-1893 post trial issues, so far. There are several articles that I found interesting. The first is an article from August 13, 1892 that details Lizzie's arrest and subsequent arrival at the jail. I find the descriptions of the cell, and her day to day life interesting, but also the fact that Dr. Bowen seemed to have accompanied her, along with other family and friends, to bid her an affectionate fairwell. :?: Does this seem odd to anyone? I'd expect the Reverend Buck, Emma, her friend Mrs. Brigham, and probably even John V. Morse. But why Dr. Bowen?
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Re: Odds & Ends

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A October 11, 1892 interview where Emma is quoted as denying the story that Lizzie had gotten herself into trouble to shame the family.

"Futhermore she says Lizzie is not sick: is not in a condition to have brought shame upon herself and her parents. The proofs of this, she says, were found in the cellar by the officers themselves during their search, and she has further proofs secured since Lizzie had been confined in Taunton Jail."
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Re: Odds & Ends

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May 22, 1893.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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Trenton Times, (Trenton, New Jersey) August 11, 1892. A prominent Doctor's theory on the case. (My guess is Bowen.)
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Re: Odds & Ends

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Fitchburg Sentinel June 22, 1893. This makes me wonder about the veracity of this so called next of kin to the Bordens, and it also makes me wonder if Lizzie and Emma expected Bridget to come back to them after murders? Bridget Sullivan is said to have told friends in Fall River that she hardly recognized Lizzie at trial because she had grown so fat.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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Mrs. Brigham seems a bit delusional when it comes to certain things. Such as Lizzie's luxurious bedroom/parlor with her library of books in the Sentinel article of August 20, 1892.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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KGDevil wrote:A October 11, 1892 interview where Emma is quoted as denying the story that Lizzie had gotten herself into trouble to shame the family.

This is why you surprised me by having Lizzie 'roll over' in her cell to give Emma the 'silent treatment'.
The fight, Lizzie kicking her sister, calling her a bitch and screaming about betrayal - doesn't it all come from the McHenrys and police matron Hannah Raegan? The McHenry name is no guarantee of accuracy. Hannah Raegan discredited herself by assuring everyone she stood in full view of the Borden sisters as they fought, then she told another police matron it was all 'a pack of lies' but no-one would let her withdraw the story.
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Re: Odds & Ends

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Great articles; I love reading them. Questions:

1. Emma is quoted:

"Futhermore she says Lizzie is not sick: is not in a condition to have brought shame upon herself and her parents. The proofs of this, she says, were found in the cellar by the officers themselves during their search, and she has further proofs secured since Lizzie had been confined in Taunton Jail."

I'm confused by this. Is Emma referring to the McHenry story, regarding bringing shame upon the family? What is meant by "Lizzie is not sick." Does she mean not crazy, not mentally incompetent? At the risk of being nit-picky, what about the next phrase: "Not in a condition to have brought shame." How can Emma know that---it sounds as if, assuming Emma actually said this, that she's reaching.

2. And further, what do you think is meant by the phrase "The proofs of this, she says, were found in the cellar by the officers themselves during their search." What 'proof' was found in the cellar? Emma was quoted later in life as saying that she is sure Lizzie was not guilty because no murder weapon was found. Is this the "Proof in the cellar" to which she is referring?

3. What 'further proofs' does Emma possess?

I love the description of Lizzie' s jail cell, and the juicy details about the conditions under which she would supposedly live. The meals described sound horrendous. Bisquits, corned beef, bread, more corned beef. I guess this is what the town provided for its prisoners, but Lizzie was fortunate enough to have family bringing her outside food. Still, Lizzie apparently gained quite a bit of weight during her stay; Bridgette was quoted as having said she barely recognized Lizzie at the beginning of the trial as "she had gotten so fat."

Additionally, I would love to put to rest the argument about what Hannah Reagan heard or didn't hear. To anyone reading this, (and I'm sure this isn't the first time this question has been posited here) Do you think that Lizzie DID say to her sister "You've given me away, haven't you?" If true, I've often wondered what Lizzie meant by that phrase. It could mean that

-Lizzie is guilty, and Emma knows that she is, because she was complicit in it, or because Lizzie confessed to her, OR
-Emma revealed confidential details about the household to the police or press, ie, that she hated her stepmother...

Thank you for these articles, KGDevil. And to answer your question...no, actually I don't find it odd that Dr. Bowen was one of the friends to bid Lizzie farewell. I think he and Lizzie had a close relationship. He was the first person LIzzie called for upon 'finding' Andrew; this tells me she trusted him implicitly. He was a witness for the defense in her trial (as opposed to Dr. Dolan, who testified for the prosecution, no?)
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Re: Odds & Ends

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Emma was referring to the McHenry story. I think that the proofs of Lizzie not being in a condition to bring shame that she was talking about were the rags found in the bucket in the basement. Lizzie said they were her menstrual rags. I think Emma is saying if Lizzie is menstruating she can't be in a delicate condition. I think she is also saying that Lizzie was menstruating at the prison, which would be further proof. That's my take on it. The Boston Globe actually printed an apology for the printing the bunch of bunk in the first place. They also printed stories about the unfortunate end of Mr. Trickey dying after falling under a train.
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Morse's Alibis

Post by InterestedReader »

KG, I was trying to make a more satisfactory identification of the Emerys at Weybosset St to understand just how Morse counted them among his family. Forum members have tried before to get it straight but never quite come to an agreement over the neices and nephews and cousins.

As you'll know it actually involves an Eliphalet Emery and a Daniel Emery. The unknown Mystery Morse, a sister to John and putatively born in the 1820s, is on ancestry records as marrying a Daniel Emery - it seems to be the one fact attributed to her biography. I was having a lot of trouble connecting Morse's Weybosset Emerys to his Morses - this family's genealogy is bizarre - but it would be rational, a Daniel in the Emery family either end of the track - 1840s and 1890s.
Have you sorted out the Morse-Emery links?

This is the 1896 Directory - Daniel has gone to Taunton.
Eliphalet, now elderly, is a 'Durfee Mill Superintendent'. (He's at 24 Weybosset, whereas Morse deposes he visited number 4.) It's said they couldn't have afforded a telephone, they were just 'mill workers', but Eliphalet for one held a prestigious job.
(They were supposed to be 'playing croquet on the lawn' when they first heard of the murders and again, 'croquet on the lawn' doesn't sound very proletarian.)
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KGDevil
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Real Name: John Porter

Re: Morse's Alibis

Post by KGDevil »

InterestedReader wrote:KG, I was trying to make a more satisfactory identification of the Emerys at Weybosset St to understand just how Morse counted them among his family. Forum members have tried before to get it straight but never quite come to an agreement over the neices and nephews and cousins.

As you'll know it actually involves an Eliphalet Emery and a Daniel Emery. The unknown Mystery Morse, a sister to John and putatively born in the 1820s, is on ancestry records as marrying a Daniel Emery - it seems to be the one fact attributed to her biography. I was having a lot of trouble connecting Morse's Weybosset Emerys to his Morses - this family's genealogy is bizarre - but it would be rational, a Daniel in the Emery family either end of the track - 1840s and 1890s.
Have you sorted out the Morse-Emery links?

This is the 1896 Directory - Daniel has gone to Taunton.
Eliphalet, now elderly, is a 'Durfee Mill Superintendent'. (He's at 24 Weybosset, whereas Morse deposes he visited number 4.) It's said they couldn't have afforded a telephone, they were just 'mill workers', but Eliphalet for one held a prestigious job.
(They were supposed to be 'playing croquet on the lawn' when they first heard of the murders and again, 'croquet on the lawn' doesn't sound very proletarian.)
Yes, interested, in researching the family tree of John Morse I did make the link between Daniel Emery and John Morse. John V. Morse stated that he was visiting his niece and nephew from out West. His brother's children. This would be the children of William Bradford Morse. Daniel L. Emery was born in 1861 in Maine. The directory from Fall River 1892 shows him at 4 Weybosset street. His occupation is overseer at Hargraves Mills. Eliphalet is listed also, but not as living with Daniel or even on Weybosset street.

William Bradford Morse married a woman named Ann Francis Mason, born November 14, 1834 in Rhode Island to Zephania and Susan Mason. Ann Francis Mason had a brother named William. William Mason married a woman named Amanda Maria Gardner. William and Amanda had a daughter named Lydia E. Mason. Lydia E. Mason married Daniel L. Emery.
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Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
KGDevil
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Odds & Ends

Post by KGDevil »

1892 Directory
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Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
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