Your thought history about the Borden case

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Your thought histoty about the Borden case

Poll ended at Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:21 am

I always believe that it was Lizzie.
2
33%
I always believe that it was not Lizzie.
0
No votes
I firstly believe that it was Lizzie, and then I changed my idea, and currently I believe it was not Lizzie.
1
17%
I firstly believe that it was not Lizzie, and then I changed my idea, and currently I believe it was Lizzie.
0
No votes
I firstly believe that it was Lizzie, and then I changed two or more times, and currently I believe it was Lizzie.
1
17%
I firstly believe that it was Lizzie, and then I changed three or more times, and currently I blelieve it was not Lizzie.
0
No votes
I firstly believe that it was not Lizzie, and then I changed two or more times, and currently I believe it was not Lizzie.
1
17%
I firstly believe that it was not Lizzie, and then I changed three or more times, and currently I believe it was Lizzie.
0
No votes
I firstly believe that it was Lizzie, and (with or without interval changes of any type) currently I have no idea at all.
1
17%
I firstly believe that it was not Lizzie, and (with or withiout interval changes of any type) currently I have no idea at all.
0
No votes
I never have an idea of any kind about the Borden case.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 6

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Franz
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Your thought history about the Borden case

Post by Franz »

N. B.: 1. Please read carefully all the options before choosing the most adequate one to your case.
2. Since this poll is about your thought history, not the degree of certainty, so, an option, for example, "I always believe that it was Lizzie", should be understood as: "I believe firmly that it was Lizzie", or "I think most probably it was Lizzie", "I am inclined to think it was Lizzie", etc.
3. Please don't take in consideration any potential changement of your opinion in the future, with or without new and significant evidence's emerging. The future is always uncertain.
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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twinsrwe
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Re: Your thought history about the Borden case

Post by twinsrwe »

Great poll, Franz! It’s good to see you posting again.

Although none of the choices listed are exactly how my thought history evolved, I chose the closest option available from the list: I firstly believe that it was Lizzie, and then I changed two or more times, and currently I believe it was Lizzie.

At first I believed it was solely Lizzie's idea to kill of both Abby and Andrew, then I changed my mind and believed that Emma planted the idea of murder in Lizzie’s head and Lizzie then carried out the deed, then I went back to believing it was solely Lizzie, then changed my mind again, believing Lizzie was the killer and Bridget was an accomplice, then back to believing Lizzie was the sole killer, etc., etc. etc. ...

There are two things that I have never changed my mind about:
1. I have always believed that Emma was a huge influence in Lizzie's feelings toward Abby.
2. I have always believed that Lizzie was the sole killer of both Abby and Andrew.

Before I go into my current thoughts, I want to say that I do not believe that the Borden murders were premeditated days, weeks, months or years in advance. I believe that Abby’s murder was never premeditated. However, I believe that Andrew’s murder was premeditated, beginning shortly after Abby’s demise. I do not put a great deal of faith in Victoria Lincoln’s theory, however, in her book, titled, A Private Disgrace, Lizzie Borden by Daylight, she made several statements that made a lot of sense to me, and I believe are probably true.

On Page 96:
He had come home to too soon. He would know, he could not avoid knowing. Her ring was on his finger, but his ring was on the third finger of Abby’s left hand – and Lizzie had killed her.

On page 97:
Lizzie had achieved nothing by killing her rival; she had only given her far more power than she had ever possessed alive.

I think that she could not bear to lose her father’s love. She had to keep it unchanged; and now there was only one way that she could keep it unchanged.

I do not hesitate to say that Lizzie murdered her father out of her love for him.

At this moment in time, I believe that Emma was a huge influence in how Lizzie felt toward Abby from the first time Abby stepped foot in the Borden house. I believe that Emma had planted the seed for murder in Lizzie’s head approximately 5 years before the murders took place. I tend to think that Emma may have said something about how she wished Abby was dead, or life would be so much better if Abby weren't here, when she found out that Andrew had deeded the Whitehead house over to Abby. Lizzie took the seed to heart, and it laid dormant in her subconscious.

I believe the conversation between Andrew, Abby and Uncle John on the evening of August 3rd, was, in part, overheard by Lizzie. Lizzie may have confronted Abby about the overheard conversation on the morning of the 4th, Abby may have said a snide remark to Lizzie, which infuriated her, and she snapped.

I believe that Dr. Bowen was an accomplice after the fact, and Emma did and said whatever it took to ‘protect’ Lizzie.
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snokkums
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Re: Your thought history about the Borden case

Post by snokkums »

I 'very always thought it was Lizzie.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
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NancyDrew
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Re: Your thought history about the Borden case

Post by NancyDrew »

I like that we are talking about this; thanks Franz. I started out reading about this case in my 20's (30 years ago.) I was convinced it was Lizzie. Then I read the theory of the illegitimate son and thought it was perhaps him. Then I joined this board, and after reading (in the Archives) the posts of Gramma, who claims she spoke in person to Ruby Cameron...I thought her theory sounded correct. Therefore I believed it was Dave Anthony, Lizzie's illicit boyfriend, with whom she may or may not have conceived a child (and had an abortion, a la Dr. Bowen.) who did the deed. BUT....in I then came around full circle again...mostly because the Dave Anthony story couldn't be corroborated with any facts, and there would have been, imo, too many people complicit in helping him escape...someone would have talked, I firmly believe. And no one did.

So...here I am again, at the beginning. It was Lizzie, and only Lizzie, who killed her parents. Abby's murder isn't difficult to picture. Andrew's is trickier, but by some luck of fate and circumstance, she was able to swing that hatchet 11 times and clean herself up amazingly well. I think she had Bridget's help. But that is just speculation.
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Franz
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Re: Your thought history about the Borden case

Post by Franz »

Oh sorry. I didn't know that in a poll the numbers do not figure automatically, so now it's an unpleasure to develop further discussions without the numbers of the options. What a pity!
And then, I didn't know a poll can not be edited after having been posted. I wrote in a very ugly English, :oops:
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
patsy
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Re: Your thought history about the Borden case

Post by patsy »

I never thought it was Lizzie maybe because of not wanting it to be her, but also because I was not convinced of some aspects of the deaths. I think there's too many questions about the time of death between the two and also evidence of the bodies having been touched or moved which throws off an investigation big time. Although I have been swayed by different theories and facts that have caused me to change my opinion back and forth between not guilty and guilty. Reasonable doubt so I still don't think Lizzie did the deed.
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Franz
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Re: Your thought history about the Borden case

Post by Franz »

Thank you all of you for your interest and participation. And let's wait until 30th september. :smile:
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Franz
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Re: Your thought history about the Borden case

Post by Franz »

Thank you for your interest and participation.

My choice is the third one: I firstly believe that it was Lizzie, and then I changed my idea, and currently I believe it was not Lizzie.

When I read for the first time the story of the case, I quickly thought that it was Lizzie: it seems clearly that only a guilty person could have reacted in that way. But my thought didn't last long. One day I noticed a little detail: when Brigit and Mrs. Churcill went upstaire to look for Abby, they found the guest room door open. This door's being open made me think and think, and I started to doubt about Lizzie's guilt, and re-read her reactions from a new point of view and I found that I could always find a innocent explication, meanwhile, uncle John more and more seems to me suspicious, and I eventually reached the conclusion that Lizzie was most probably innocent, and so far I haven't changed my idea for the second time.

Thank you again! :smile:
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
mbhenty
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Re: Your thought history about the Borden case

Post by mbhenty »

Sure thing, Franz :!:

Different levels of Borden studies:

When you become a Borden murders neophyte you are not so sure who did the Borden murders.

When you become an aficionado and read a couple of Lincolns, Spriengs, Sullivans, or even Browns, you are positive as to the murderer.

But then you become authority on the Borden murders and you are not so sure any longer.

But...

When you become an author on the Borden murders, you are positively confident, certain, convinced, and indeed assured about who did the killings, and have all the answers posted to the best reader's list.

:study:
Last edited by mbhenty on Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Franz
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Re: Your thought history about the Borden case

Post by Franz »

mbhenty wrote:Sure thing, Franz :!:

Different levels of Borden studies:

When you become a Borden murders neophyte you are not so sure who did the Borden murders.

When you become an aficionado and read a couple of Lincolns, Springs, Sullivans, or even Browns, you are positive as to the murderer.

But then you become authority on the Borden murders and you are not so sure any longer.

But...

When you become an author on the Borden murders, you are positively confident, certain, convinced, and indeed assured about who did the killings, and have all the answers posted to the best reader's list.

:study:
:grin: This is the fascination of the case.
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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