Charles C Cook insight into family relations

[camgarsky4]

MB -- do we know if the City Marshall ever followed up with Mr. Cook to get his views on the Borden family relations?

Charles C. Cook made the following statement. “I am business manager for Mr. Andrew J. Borden, for
the Borden Block.
(Question) “Mr. Cook, do you know of anything that would lead you to imagine that Lizzie and her
father did not get along well together?”
(Answer) “I do not like to answer that question on account of my position as custodian of property,
as I do not know what my relations may be with the family, when this thing is settled.”
(Question.) “Would you be willing to answer that question in strict confidence to the City Harshal?”
(Answer) “Yes sir, I would.”

[camgarsky4]

Regarding CC Cook and the comments above, found this article in The Hatchett section of this website. Very informative and interesting.


Where the Bread was Buttered: Charles C. Cook’s Loyalty to Lizzie Borden
by Tina Kate Rouse
First published in June/July, 2004, Volume 1, Issue 3, The Hatchet: Journal of Lizzie Borden Studies.

[mbhenty]

Yes, camearsky4.

No, we do not know if Hilliard did a follow up on the issue....... at this time.

But that being said.

The Fall River Historical Soc. has the Hilliard papers in hand. We don't know what they say and they are not available to the public at the moment. But there could be more written there about views on the relationship between Lizzie and the rest of the family.

We don't know when the Hilliard information will be released. There is still lots of work to translate them into digestible content. And from what I gather it will not be for a while.

Right now the Society is busy preparing the Jennings scrap/note book. It's the next "Lizzie" Historical Society release from what I have been told. Estimated to be sometime next year.

[mbhenty]

Here's my take on Cook, without getting to submerged.

I call him Charles Crook. Because I think that's what he was.

I use to own the Phoebe Davenport house, better known as the Henry house, right next door to Maplecroft. I owned it for almost as long as Mrs. Davenport did... just about 25 years.

Lizzie had purchased the house just before she died. She did so in Charles Cook's name, her financial advisor. When she died he tried to say that Lizzie left the house to him. The two women who were the administratrix of Lizzie's will had to take him to court over it. The house was in his name but ownership was Lizzie's.

Some time in the late teens Emma fired Cook and hired Jennings to manage her finances. Lizzie continued with him.

[camgarsky4]

MB --- received the Knowlton Papers book today! Will be up late tonight doing some reading......many thanks for the lead on the book!

[mbhenty]

You're welcome.

Yep. At the right place at the right time.

They don't come up very often for that price.

Just luck. enjoy.

I had a little chat with those in the know and a 2nd edition in paperback may be on the market sometime in the future. Talks are ongoing.

[camgarsky4]

MB - are you anticipating many 'revelations' coming from the new Jennings material?

Are the Hilliard papers something his family have kept and just recently gave to the FRHS? That must be quite the historical society for a mid-sized city.

[mbhenty]

Don't know how the Historical Society came across the Hilliard papers but they have had them stored away for years now. (me thinks)

My understanding is that the Jennings material will not expose any big new revelation. But it makes plain and sheds new light on some events that have already been reported on, along with some little disclosures, such as the door between the elder Borden's room and Lizzie's room being used. There is no real glaring epiphany.

Now the Knowlton copy you purchased is a collectable.

I inquired today about when the paperback issue would come out. It appears that it has been placed on the front burner and may even make an appearance on the market sometime in the next couple of months.

I expect it will cost somewhere between 25 to 50 dollars. Though I was aware that one was being planned for sometime in the future there had been no plans in the works—until there was.

It appears that fund raising is needed and a new book is a good source. Thus the Knowlton papers have been chosen since all it needs is formatting into a paper edition.

And though you could have paid a lot less for the material, it could have been a lot more. But your copy is a collectable. Now, I'm prejudice about such things since I'm a book collector. I find value in a match book.

[camgarsky4]

If 25, I'll buy a copy so I can highlight in it. Just started on the book, but you were right, the number of "helpers' that Knowlton had is quite entertaining. I'll cross reference and document later, but already noticing a couple of leads via the letters to Knowlton that the detectives mentioned following up on in the Witness Statements....like raking the pond. Sort of fun to start seeing the varying sources cross check each other.

One more question for you.....what is the best source to learn of Lizzie & Emma's post-murder lives? Guessing Parallel Lives, but would you suggest something different?

[mbhenty]

Yes, Parallel Lives, hands down.

There really is no other publication that deals exclusively with the Lizzie's life pre-and-post murders. It touches a tiny bit on the murders but it is the wrong place to go looking if that is what interests you. It's the only exclusive biography of Lizzie Borden that exists. If there was a relationship with anyone by Lizzie there's a good chance it's in there. Goes into the intimacies and intricacies of Lizzie and those around her, especially post-murders.

Now if you are looking for comprehensive facts, then Leonard Rebello's, Lizzie Borden Past and Present is still the best source. Mostly a compilation of facts...who's who, where were they born, when was that building sold, Lizzie's will, people who knew her or opposed her, etc. Very useful and an essential work. But the index is very deficient. You need to thumb through the volume to find anything you want. He should have hired an indexer.

Now some may disagree with me, but if your only interest is the crime and you want to become an authority on the subject, you could very well do without Parallel Lives. It's that different from all other publications. Depends if you want to become a pundit or an expert.

Parallel Lives has been taken off of Amazon, I believe.

Now, be aware that the book is for sale over book sites and eBay. Some are asking crazy money for a copy.

But you can still get a new copy directly from the folks at the Fall River Historical Society. They cost 50 dollars and the links below.

https://lizzieborden.org/FRHSPress/

[twinsrwe]

Excellent post, MB!

Parallel Lives has been taken off of Amazon, I believe.

I thought it had been taken off Amazon, too, but there is still a used one available for $95.00 plus $7.87 shipping and handling: https://tinyurl.com/j2pbnt6

I can't tell you what to do, camgarsky4, but personally, I’d go for the $49.99 brand new one at the Fall River Historical Society.

[camgarsky4]

Thanks to both of you....appreciate your advise.

Still have a bunch of reading to finish "Case Against Lizzie Borden" and the Knowlton Papers. Going back and forth between them.

MB -- this Borden clan is so unique and peculiar that I'm feeling compelled to try and get a stronger sense of what made Lizzie and Emma tick. Hoping that will help me form a better interpretation of what happened Aug 4.

To me, it is super odd to become permanently estranged from your sister and change your given name at the AGE OF 40! To purchase your dream life style which was made possible by the brutal murder of your father just a few weeks after being acquitted of killing him for his money. Staying in the same town for the remainder of your life where the other residents ostracize you....especially when travel seems to be a joy. We could add more surprising decisions that Lizzie made. They all seem to signal a highly complex person (or maybe just a very self-centered one).

That is why I think I'll take your and Twins advise and buy Parallel Lives from the FRHS and see if it provides a peak into the inner workings of the Borden sisters minds.

This forum is lucky to have folks like you two staying active......thanks again!

[mbhenty]

Thanks Twins.

Thanks camgarsky4

Now as I mentioned above. One needs to do his/her homework when searching for books. Below is a perfect example. The book below is listed on eBay as we speak. Seller is asking two hundred and forty nine dollars. Brings one of two words to mind... ignorance or robbery.

[twinsrwe]

You're welcome, MB.

$249.00 is definitely highway robbery!!! Especially since you can get a brand new copy at the Fall River Historical Society for $49.99.

[camgarsky4]

MB & Twins -- do you know if there has been consideration to create a bound volume of the Hatchet magazine editions or at least the story copy portions of the magazines? Not sure how many total volumes, but maybe create a set of 4-5 bound copies grouped by year or topic.

I know I'd love to own the set. Shopping and selecting by individual edition is a bit overwhelming and time consuming to browse the covers. Also $8 per edition makes it highly costly to aspire to own the entire set. Anyway, just a biz idea for the site.

I submitted this question on the website, but not sure if it went thru.

[twinsrwe]

Camgarsky4, I’m sure you will find the following thread extremely interesting: https://tinyurl.com/y83w9u3m

[camgarsky4]

:)

Yes, very interesting and a definitely a money saving link! I love how it was MB who started that link!

[twinsrwe]

:)

Yes, very interesting and a definitely a money saving link! I love how it was MB who started that link!

I had a feeling you would enjoy the thread and the link that MB posted.

MB is extremely knowledgeable about Lizzie Borden as well as the city of Fall River, and he has no problem sharing his knowledge with us. Over the years, I have learned a tremendous amount of insider information from him, that you will not find in any book on the Borden murders.

[camgarsky4]

I got my copy of Parallel Lives in the mail today from the Fall River Historical Society.....when I saw the physical size of it I laughed out loud! My gosh its a huge book. Guessing I'll learn a thing or two!! :)

MB -- thanks once again for the lead that saved me some serious $.

[mbhenty]

Yes Camgarsky4

Parallel Lives is a hefty publication.

At the time they first published the book I had a couple of ideas about how the book should be published.

I am happy to say that they took up one of them. A limited edition of 100 copies, signed and boxed.

The other Idea, or advice, was to publish the book in two volumes. This was rejected because of the cost of publishing two separate bindings, which essentially would cost upwards of twice the cost to publish. But I thought that the book was too large to be published as a single copy and still do. Such bindings do not fair well with time and use. Also the volume itself is awkward to cradle in one's lap or take to bed. Two volumes should have been published instead. But I understand the need by a Society where funds are limited.

Still, an excellent publication. A true biography of the life of Lizzie Borden.

[mbhenty]

[camgarsky4]

Thanks MB.

Do you expect Rebello's "Past & Present" to go back on the presses? Secondary market prices are a bit steep. :(

My approach is to finish reading "Case Against Lizzie Borden", Parallel Lives and Knowlton Papers....and all the source documents. Outside of getting varying authors interpretation of the facts, would you recommend any other books (besides Rebello's) to ensure exposure to all the relevant information?

[mbhenty]

Sorry cameragarsky4:

Had to remove what I said above. Told to do so by my Sovereign Master or more accurately, the administrator of the forum. Since the book is not ready and the authors reserve the right to make the announcement... you understand.

As for Rebello I would say, don't hold your breath.

We have been after the author to print a paper copy of his book but he doesn't appear to express any ambition to do so.

It does need revision. It contains one or two errors, maybe more. Especially the index which is vital in such a narrative which needs to be more user friendly or just plain functional. It is difficult to find anything using the existing index.

And if I were Mr. Rebello... there is so much that has happened in "Lizzie World" since he wrote his book that he would probably have to rewrite the entire thing and update it. Hopefully he will have a change in mind.

Doesn't mean we won't keep after him.

[camgarsky4]

MB --- good luck on Rebello and I totally understand about the Sovereign Master....I have one of those in my house also!! :)

On a completely different note.....Lizzie states she plans to buy her fishing line & hook, but wanted to save money by rummaging thru an attic in the barn in the summer. That seems outside her character. She just received $2,500 for her share of the house Andrew bought back (so plenty of $), she clearly didn't care for chores (who does) and seemed to view herself above doing things like rummaging thru barns. Why wouldn't she just plan to buy a sinker to go along with the line and hook? I think we all wish we could 'will' Knowlton to ask a few more questions!

I know there are a dozen other reasons to doubt her alibi, but this particular aspect seems very clear to me to be a flaw with her story.

What do you think?

[mbhenty]

Yes:

Airing on the side of Lizzie being guilty, or if you wish, innocent, there is no accounting for some of the things she said or was reported to say. Thus it all feeds into the mystery.

Of course if she were guilty getting her alibi straight could be be a stumbling block. Memory or a more likely scenario may come up as time allows. After a while you can't remember what reply you gave to a question which was asked several times by several questioners.

As a latter half 20th century bloke and seeing women through such eyes, I ask how many 32 year old women go fishing? Seem's like something you do when you are young or hungry. And Lizzie was anything but.

And I can't imagine Lizzie down by the Fall River waterfront, anywhere along the water front, fishing with a bunch of immigrants. Those who lived in the city were fishing for food. Even today... you find the most recent fall river immigrant, Cambodians, fishing along fall river's Taunton River. Can you see Lizzie side by side fishing with the French, Portuguese, Polish, and god forbid those annoying Irish?

And if Lizzie did in fact go fishing she did so at the Gardners Neck farm with its country style river behind the house. Ultimately one would think that most of the fishing gear would be kept there.

[mbhenty]

OK

Just had a very constructive conversation with a Lizzie expert. And she made a good point. Even if she did hit me over the head with it.

She thinks there was no age limit to a girl fishing, whether then or today. And that, NO, she would not be fishing in fall river but in fact was looking for fishing gear for her planned trip to Marion.



Makes sense. And though I come from a long line of fisherman in my family, I am not one. Watching the worm squirm as I shove a hook in its eye is not my cup of tea. Nor is ripping the barb out of the mouth of the fish which is staring right up at me, gasping for air, and pleading, why, why, why.

But I do love eating them. I just tell myself that they came from the fish farm between the corn and the beets.

[camgarsky4]

You crack me up. Personally I am far too hyper to fish much...maybe I'll take up fly casting someday....that looks a bit more stimulating.

Sounds like she was going fishing at Marion with the gals, but she strikes me as someone who would buy their gear vs. rummage thru a barn loft. Especially since she was planning to buy most of the gear anyway. I agree with your take that she was iteratively inventing the story of what she was doing outside the house. I'm still working on my POV whether she did the killing, or was staying out of the way, but pretty sure she was NOT in a muggy barn loft, moving dusty old boards so she could dig thru a basket looking for random pieces of lead, all to save a couple pennies. Surprised she didn't get a splinter. :)

[mbhenty]

It was 1986 and I was browsing through books at Baker Books my favorite book store. At the time it was located on William Street in New Bedford. (It has since gone out of business) I came across the freshly issued Misadventures of a Fly Fisherman by Jack Hemingway. Since I collected books about Ernest I purchase Jack's book. (Jack since died in 2000. He was the son of Ernest Hemingway and his first wife Hadly Richardson. Also the father of Margaux and Mariel Hemingway.)

He had a reputation as a fly fisherman. In the book he talks about fly fishing behind enemy lines in France. Good read for any fly fisherman.

I cold see Lizzie fly fishing.

Not to discourage you from the sport but I always found sport fishing odd and somewhat cruel. Perhaps a sense of affinity or ignorance on my part. But there are few sports which look as relaxing and forgiving as fly fishing.

Strangely enough, the Quequechan river down the street from 92 Second street, with it's countless small waterfalls, would have made excellent grounds for fly fishing during the 19th century. I use to fish there as a child. Mostly catfish and perch. I would take them to Lizzie's house where she would chop there little heads off and help me dress them.

At least the first half was true.

[twinsrwe]

Not to discourage you from the sport but I always found sport fishing odd and somewhat cruel. Perhaps a sense of affinity or ignorance on my part. But there are few sports which look as relaxing and forgiving as fly fishing.

Strangely enough, the Quequechan river down the street from 92 Second street, with it's countless small waterfalls, would have made excellent grounds for fly fishing during the 19th century. I use to fish there as a child. Mostly catfish and perch. I would take them to Lizzie's house where she would chop there little heads off and help me dress them.

At least the first half was true.

MB, I have to agree with camgarshy4; sometimes you crack me up!!!

[wall59]

For those who may be interested, the paperback version of the the Knowlton Papers is available on Amazon.

[camgarsky4]

Reactivating this thread. A couple of our new members will enjoy this topic and the possibilities it clearly suggests and I'd love to get Possum's take on what Charles Cook knew or didn't know.

The article noted below does a wonderful job of assembling all the sources on this issue into a clear story line which I view as a key motive indicator. Fingers crossed that, in the near future, the Hilliard Papers will tell us more about this story.

Kat or someone more technologically skilled than I, would you be able to add the actual link to the Hatchet article below to this thread so folks can access easily?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where the Bread was Buttered: Charles C. Cook’s Loyalty to Lizzie Borden
by Tina Kate Rouse July 5, 2018
First published in June/July, 2004, Volume 1, Issue 3, The Hatchet: Journal of Lizzie Borden Studies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many thanks!

[Kat]

Reactivating this thread. A couple of our new members will enjoy this topic and the possibilities it clearly suggests and I'd love to get Possum's take on what Charles Cook knew or didn't know.

The article noted below does a wonderful job of assembling all the sources on this issue into a clear story line which I view as a key motive indicator. Fingers crossed that, in the near future, the Hilliard Papers will tell us more about this story.

Kat or someone more technologically skilled than I, would you be able to add the actual link to the Hatchet article below to this thread so folks can access easily?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where the Bread was Buttered: Charles C. Cook’s Loyalty to Lizzie Borden
by Tina Kate Rouse
First published in June/July, 2004, Volume 1, Issue 3, The Hatchet: Journal of Lizzie Borden Studies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many thanks!

Easy link to essay on Charles Cook:
https://lizzieandrewborden.com/HatchetO ... orden.html

[camgarsky4]

Kat - thanks for adding the link!

Reasonwhy- I think you’ll be fascinated with the Charles cook saga and what it might imply. I think it’s key to the case and if cook had testified we would know so much more. He chose personal financial security over honesty.

Possum- guessing this isn’t news for you.