John Morse

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:33 pm

Hi all! Hoping this message creates some chat activity about our favorite uncle, John Morse. I'm going to throw out some thoughts on a couple "Uncle Johnisms" that I've seen mentioned on the forum. Please jump in and add any other 'Morse oddities' and your thoughts.

1) Was it rude of Lizzie not to stop in and say hi to John and her folks when she got home Wed Aug 3 9pmish?
No, not if she had any idea of what was going to happen the next day....and I think by the time Wed evening rolled around, Lizzie had a very good idea of what was going to happen Thursday pre-noon. So if you plan to harm someone 12 hours later, you probably would prefer not to have a pleasant chat with them. You would want your mind feeling nothing but disdain, anger, hatred, whatever it takes to fuel the actions that are to take place. You also would not want to give Uncle John the opportunity to detect any odd body signals you may be unintentionally emanating.

2) Was John an accomplice to murder with either of the Borden sisters (or anyone else)?
In my opinion, NO. He was their uncle, so he might intercede if they were in harms way. But John knew they were 30 & 40 years of age and each had $2,500+ at the time of the murder. If they were living in inhospitable conditions, and John knew, he would provide counsel to them (at least Emma) to move out. Is there the slightest chance that one of your niece/nephews could convince you to participate in murdering anyone, much less someone you seemed to like? Unless their lives were at risk, I hope the answer is a resounding no!
Other than helping the sisters, John also does not have a known financial motive.

3) On August 4, upon returning from the Emery's, why did John walk past the side door and into back yard to eat a couple tasty pears?
I'm still noodling on this. Was he an 'airhead' or absent minded? Is it possible he was so deep in thought? Did he sense extreme tension and avoided for a few minutes? If that was the case, couldn't he have just said so? That said, if going to the pear tree was some indicator of his participation in evil doing, why did he even mention it? Without him mentioning it, it likely would not have become an issue.

Lizzie A.B. MA · Post by **Lizzie A.B. MA** » Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:48 am

Hello,
One the one hand this is of course correct but, personally, the oh so great uncle is not so quite Creppy. I mean, after reading Lizzies testimony, John Morse rarely came to visit. Since honor, yes I'm east lived.
Especially since it's funny.
Shortly. Before the murders to Andrew Borden to come, and habe a conversation about his will? Knew that, Abby should inherit everything and wanted to prevent this. Or, Wanted to become part of the inheritance it self?.
Or, John Morse's behavior as, he saw the police at the bordens' hour. Didn't then, look like he was, worried that something like this might have happened?
And Lizzie herself, was also on a visit to Miss Russell before, of course she could explain her behavior, good. But, she also saw to murder, Andrew abs Abby Borden in the morning, and could have prevented this yes, which she probably did not do.
Fruthermore, if you did actually start the murder, I think I was sooner at a later time, of the day, planned, and, had to speed up as, she learned that John Morse, returned at noon, in the house dignity.
I'm not a fan of this Lizzie Murderer theory, since, I don't belive in it myself, but was John Morse alibi 100% waterproof?
Could propel have lied to him, who feared him?
Or, is there, this in terms I'd Habs solid evidence for john Morse?
L.A. Borden Kersting

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:00 pm

Lizzie AB.....I view John's alibi as 99.9% waterproof since Ms. Emery confirmed when he arrived and left their home. He could not have killed Andrew and to have killed Abby would mean he ran back to the house after visiting the post office, killed Abby without Lizzie or Bridget noticing, and then somehow got to the Emery house in record time without anyone noticing an elderly man running across a busy city. If you googlemap the walking time from the post office to the Emery's, the time fits pretty well with the timeline John's alibi requires.

That doesn't mean he wasn't somehow involved, but I don't see how he could have physically participated.

Lots of folks get wrapped up in John's highly detailed alibi. But, if he was involved as a co-conspirator, but not actually present for the killings, then why did he show up on Wednesday at all? Moral support? That seems pretty lame.

The best alibi would have been to stay home in South Dartmouth.

Also, there is no documented evidence that Andrew and John discussed wills Wednesday evening. John didn't mention this as a topic. It is pure speculation based on nothing of substance.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:24 pm

Ok...I kept hearing about the unbelievably detailed alibi that Morse provided. It is mentioned numerous times as a primary reason to place suspicion on John. I've been trying to find documentation of this detailed alibi (which is not included in his official testimonies). So after reading as many Morse threads as I could find, below is all I could come up with. The information below was provided by Kat back in 2004.
While John remembered sitting with 6 priests, that seems to be the only additive detail as compared to his testimonies and certainly shouldn't qualify as a bizarre recollection on John's part.

So my takeaway is that the 'storyline' that John remembered the conductors cap # and other bizarre details is very likely not true and there is nothing strange or unbelievable about John's alibi explanation.
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Post by Kat » Thu May 13, 2004 12:03 am
Evening Standard, Sat., Aug. 6th, 1892:
"Returning, he [Morse] took a street car on which six priests were passengers, three of whom sat on the seat with him. He left the car at the corner of Pleasant and Second streets, and walked direct to Mr. Borden's residence."

Also Sat., Aug. 6th, 1892:
"The conductor of the car yesterday was a "spare," named Whittaker, and the News has been unable to find him to-day, as he would probably remember the circumstance of the six priests and Mr. Morse's riding with him. Mr. Morse's story has, however, been confirmed, so far as the priests being on a car is concerned, by Conductor Kennedy of the car going east, who says he passed the car with the priests on the hill by the Pocasset engine house, about where Mr. Morse took the car, and that he took its time and it was just 22 minutes after 11 o'clock. "

Steve88778 · Post by **Steve88778** » Sat May 08, 2021 12:14 am

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Sat May 08, 2021 4:51 am

Steve -- regarding remembering the badge #..... I can't find that documented anywhere. Not even a newspaper article....certainly not in the testimonies or witness statement. Frankly, I don't see where he remembers the car number. He remembers 6 priests and that is pretty much it.

I've cut and pasted above the Morse recollections I can find and nothing about remembering badge #'s or anything else that would be unusual.

Steve88778 · Post by **Steve88778** » Sat May 08, 2021 8:50 pm

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Sat May 08, 2021 9:56 pm

Please do search, I've put a pretty healthy chunk of time into this topic and the newspaper articles I've posted above are what i've found. I do believe that one of the defense attorney's....Phillips, wrote a short defense of Lizzie pamphlet in the 1940's (or thereabouts). I seem to think he referenced the badge #....but since I'm sure you've read all the testimonies....you know that level of detail is never mentioned. Witness statements, inquest, prelim trial or the trial.

Also, no articles I've read mention that level of detail. They do mention the priests. They do mention others noting the priests.

Good luck with your search, but I'm expecting you'll come up empty handed.

Steve88778 · Post by **Steve88778** » Sat May 08, 2021 11:44 pm

Steve88778 · Post by **Steve88778** » Sun May 09, 2021 12:11 am

OK I found it it is from Victoria Lincoln’s book A Private Disgrace, Lizzie Borden by Daylight, on page 97 Chapter 13 he talks of remembering the badge number on the conductors cap among other things.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Sun May 09, 2021 6:32 am

Good find.

Lincoln's book references a number of unsubstantiated claims. For example she mentions a neighbor actually seeing someone at the front door around 9am. Her book is only place this neighbor witness is mentioned.

I tend to ignore anything a book references unless the source is noted. A source cam be a primary source, newspaper article or a journal/letter from that period. No documented source makes note of a badge # or even car #. So I don't consider it something to solve for since it likely never happened.

Steve88778 · Post by **Steve88778** » Sun May 09, 2021 8:46 am

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Sun May 09, 2021 9:32 am

I have gotten very little solid case knowledge out of the books I've read (Radin, Lincoln, Brown) that seem to be heavily reliant on documentation or information that doesn't seem to be available anywhere but in their books. My preferred reading material outside of period documents is "Case Against Lizzie Borden" by William Spencer. He does very little speculating and if he does, he connects back to the documented facts he is basing his speculation and deductions upon.

I do think Lincoln had a solid idea that the Prince Albert coat might have been used as a 'blood splatter shield'. I view this as applying logic against a documented fact....which is solid problem solving technique. The death photo of Andrew clearly shows the folded up coat by his head.

Steve88778 · Post by **Steve88778** » Wed May 12, 2021 12:19 am

In the Lizzie Borden Quarterly Volume III , number 4 , October 1996, Page 16 . Mrs. Florence Brigham the daughter-in-law of Mary Brigham tells us about luncheons her mother-in-law used to have with Rev. Mr. Buck and Emma and the relationship Mary Brigham had with Emma Borden, she goes on to say that there is a postcard that Emma sent to Mary Brigham when she was traveling and it’s on display at the historical society that reads: “I’m still concerned about that uncle in the backyard eating pears that day with all of that going on in the house where he was a house guest. That doesn’t seem right to me. And when he can tell the number on the conductors cap, that doesn’t sound right to me. Nobody has gotten him out of the way but I haven’t any theories one way or the other. Who knows ? I haven’t any theories one way or the other.”

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Wed May 12, 2021 5:22 am

Steve -- good sleuthing. Honestly I've read very few of the quarterly stories. I will spend some time reading what you found and more of the quarterly articles. That is definitely new information for me.

Give me a couple days, and I'll circle back to the forum.

Thanks for the references!

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Wed May 12, 2021 1:14 pm

Steve -- thanks for your lead which drove me to find the quarterly archives. So much to read.

Anyway, I read the text you reference and it is clear to me that she just mentions that Emma sent a postcard, but it is herself that is making the comments about morse eating pears and remembering the badge #.

So, while interesting, her interview was many many years after the fact and could very well be based on the rumor mill. I wish we could find something from that immediate timeframe.

Steve88778 · Post by **Steve88778** » Wed May 12, 2021 9:46 pm

Steve88778 · Post by **Steve88778** » Fri May 14, 2021 10:16 pm

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Sat May 15, 2021 4:18 am

Steve, that article is similar to multiple others that do NOT mention a badge or really anything that a stable person wouldn't recall. If the badge # had been stated, it stands to reason that most of the articles would not exclude that information and yet they do. I think Victoria Lincoln's book is where this 'storyline' got its birth. I would need to check the date of Ms. Brigham's interview, but thinking it would be after Lincolns book was published.

Evening Standard, Sat., Aug. 6th, 1892:
"Returning, he [Morse] took a street car on which six priests were passengers, three of whom sat on the seat with him. He left the car at the corner of Pleasant and Second streets, and walked direct to Mr. Borden's residence."

Also Sat., Aug. 6th, 1892:
"The conductor of the car yesterday was a "spare," named Whittaker, and the News has been unable to find him to-day, as he would probably remember the circumstance of the six priests and Mr. Morse's riding with him. Mr. Morse's story has, however, been confirmed, so far as the priests being on a car is concerned, by Conductor Kennedy of the car going east, who says he passed the car with the priests on the hill by the Pocasset engine house, about where Mr. Morse took the car, and that he took its time and it was just 22 minutes after 11 o'clock. "

More troubling for Morse (to me anyway) is that Porter claimed that Morse told him that he learned of the murders via a telephone call. Medley asked Morse about this and Morse denied he said it or that it happened. Since I don't believe the Emery's had a phone and they didn't have phone booths in that era, I don't think he received a call. If not at the Emery's....when and where would he have gotten the call?

Steve88778 · Post by **Steve88778** » Sat May 15, 2021 7:20 pm

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Sun May 16, 2021 7:39 am

Steve -- below is the LB Quarterly story you reference. The entire article is basically an ongoing quote from Florence Bingham. The paragraph break is from the article. To me it is clear that the "concerns" raised in the 2nd paragraph is Florence sharing her personal thoughts and has nothing to do with Emma sending her mom-in-law a postcard. She just mentions the postcard because it was a communication that happened after her mom-in-law stopped referencing Emma in her diary. So this is no more useful than using Victoria Lincolns book as a reference. I suspect that Florence got the idea from Lincolns book.

FLORENCE TALKS ABOUT THE BORDEN CASE Lizzie Borden Quarterly Volume III No. 4
"I wish I knew what happened. My mother-in-law was a friend of Emma's. Well, that rift between Emma and Lizzie must
have been very deep. It was probably over those theater people. My mother-in-law was very old-fashioned. She would have
stayed with Emma rather than Lizzie for that reason. My mother-in-law would never say anything. 'She was tried and she was
acquitted and we don't know any more than that about it,' she'd say. I have my mother-in-law's diary. Unfortunately, she didn't
start it until 1902. She does tell about entertaining Emma for lunch one day. And she remembers her staying at the (Reverend)
Buck's and she came to lunch and had a 'nice talk' that afternoon. I thought I'd like to know what they talked about! And almost the next day Mother Brigham wrote, 'Went over to the Hood's. She had a luncheon for Emma Borden and we had a nice afternoon.' I wonder what they
talked about that afternoon, too. The Hoods lived down the street on French Street at that time. Mother Brigham never mentioned Emma again in her diary. Yet, there is a postcard on display at the Historical Society that Emma sent to my mother- in-law while traveling."

"I'm still concerned about that uncle sitting out in the back yard eating pears that day with all of that going on in the house where he was a house guest. That doesn't seem right to me. And when he could tell the number on the conductor's cap, that doesn't sound right to me.
Nobody's got him out of the way but I haven't any theories one way or the other. Who knows? I haven't any theories one way or the other."

Steve88778 · Post by **Steve88778** » Sun May 16, 2021 10:38 am

Steve88778 · Post by **Steve88778** » Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:46 pm

John V Morse recorded the streetcar number and the number on the conductor's cap. You can refer to attorney Arthur Phillips interview. In which he stated that he remembered the number on the street car and the number on the conductor's cap number as well as people that he met along the way...

RECENT SOURCE: New Bedford Sunday Standard Times, May 13,1934...

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:02 pm

Just another random John Morse observation.

For someone who some view as Andrew's business confidant, there are indications that maybe he didn't really deserve that degree of trust.

Both sisters testify that Morse was the source for their awareness of Andrew's original Will (~10 years prior to the killings).

With that backdrop, it would certainly seem plausible that Morse shared Andrew's more recent estate considerations (bequeathing Swansea property to the Old Ladies Home) with Emma, and then Emma with Lizzie?

My opinion is that Morse held Andrew and Emma in equal stature and that he did share Andrew's more recent estate considerations with Emma. After all, Uncle John was the "dearest of uncles'.

MaryM · Post by **MaryM** » Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:31 pm

I haven’t had much time to delve into Uncle John V Morse, but from what I have seen, didn’t he have investments in property with Andrew Borden? There could be much speculation about him, he was the brother of the girl’s mother, but from the inconsistencies in the reports of the day, one being attributed to a police officer and another being to the civilian posted to guard the side entrance of the house, John didn’t necessarily just wander out back to eat pears. If he was told he couldn’t enter as police wanted to preserve the scene and he had to wait, why wouldn’t he have entered the backyard and on a warm day, why wouldn’t he have been thirsty and decided to have a pear off the tree to moisten a dry throat?

swinell · Post by **swinell** » Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:54 am

The strangest thing for Morse aside from recalling the 6 priests and the Phillips interview claiming he also knew the conductor's badge # and the trolley car # is going back into the yard to eat pears. What puzzles me most is that both in the Inquest and the Trial, when asked about this, he repeatedly says that he didn't notice anything strange around the outside of the house, didn't notice any crowds gathered or police around. If he got back to 92 Second St around noon on Aug. 4, then he must have seen the large crowds outside the house, the police and reporters and medical examiners and the general public going in and out of the house - he's asked in the Inquest whether he noticed anything strange around the house. He said he didn't, but surely he must have seen hoards of people and deputized citizens and such ... at the very least, I suspect he knew something sinister was going on within the household from the very first time he'd visited since coming out to South Dartmouth. Whether he knew what exactly was going on or what had gone on after the fact remains in question, but he definitely knew something was up, and knew enough to not want to go into the house directly...nothing concrete of course, just food for thought

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:33 pm

After cross referencing various testimonies of when folks saw Morse, it is likely that Morse got to the Borden house 11:35-11:40 that morning. Just one example, Lizzie went up to her room 11:50ish and before that, she had a chat with him in the dining room. There are multiple other cross reference situation. Dr Bowen returned from sending telegram to Emma 11:30-11:35. Reading his testimony, he was asked if he saw a crowd or anything unusual when he got to the Borden’s. Bowen said he did not. So it is reasonable that Morse didn’t take notice of anything unusual either. All that aside, Why would he lie about that? Maybe he went back for a pear because he wasn’t looking forward to the meal or figured there would be tension and was stalling or maybe it’s just what he wanted to do.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:27 pm

Starting a laundry list of reasons that might indicate Morse's involvement in planning or executing the murders and a list of facts that would indicate zero involvement before hand. Let's keep adding to these lists and see if having all the info in one place changes our thoughts on John.

Reasons to question if John' was involved in planning or conducting murders:
1) Arrival at the Borden home the evening before the murders. Coincidence?
2) Slept in the guest room where Abby was killed. Coincidence?
3) Heard Abby tell Bridget to wash windows at breakfast. Bridget said she was told around 9am. Contradiction that could indicate Morse arrived back earlier and saw Bridget washing windows.
4) Claimed to see cellar door open upon his return from Emery's. Was he setting stage for potential intruder escape/entry point?

Reasons to believe John was NOT involved in planning or executing murders:
1) John's alibi as documented in court testimony and in police witness statements was not unusual or oddly detailed.
2) No known motive. No financial connection to killings has been surfaced. Sister died of natural, medical reasons.
3) Arriving at Borden home and not seeing a crowd. Bowen arrived back from sending telegram and also didn't see a crowd.
4) Newspaper article claiming Morse was notified of killings via a phone call. Several scholars have researched and found no reason to believe the Emery's would have a phone.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:42 am

Posts Copied over from thread titled "Crowe Roof Hatchet

Morse arrival at Borden home
Post by Kat. November 20
Just to add here...it was asked earlier if Mr Borden knew that John Morse was coming the day he did (Wednesday) and here is his inquest answer:

Q. You do not think you had written announcing your visit at this time?
A. I dont think I did. Let me see, let me tell it as I can think of it. Mr. Borden, when I was over here sometime in July, that I speak of, wanted to know if I knew of a man he could get on his farm, to take charge of it, I told him I did not know, I would see. When I got back I wrote him I knew of a man I thought would suit him, I would send him over. He wrote back to me he had rather I would wait until I saw him. I have his letter in my pocket, if you want to see it.
Q. What was the date of that letter? You may refresh your memory. If you have no objections, I will see it.
(Witness produces the letter dated July 25, 1892.)
Q. Have you any objection to me keeping this?
A. No Sir, I would not like it lost, because it was the last one I ever had from him.
Q. That, then, was the last correspondence before you came over?
A. That is the last.
Q. You did not write him you were coming?
A. No Sir.
Q. You came partially in pursuance of that request?
A. Yes Sir.
99
Q. Was that about ten days before you came?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So they were not expecting you that particular day, but were looking for you at any time?
A. Yes Sir.

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Post by camgarsky4 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:17 am
Possum -- very much agree on your final paragraph.

As to why she would "risk" it with Morse visiting and Bridget being ill....if Lizzie listened in Wednesday night or afternoon to the Morse talks downstairs, she would have heard the talk of visiting the Emery's and likely other indications that Morse was visiting for just the single night.

Andrew inviting Morse back for lunch as he was leaving strongly signals that John wasn't coming back, otherwise, why invite him? I find it telling that Lizzie came downstairs within minutes of Morse leaving.

Bridget wasn't sick as of Wednesday, so that wouldn't have been a consideration for Lizzie. I'm not even sure Lizzie knew she was feeling poorly until hearing of Bridget's inquest testimony (if she did). When Bridget went out to vomit, I believe that Lizzie thought she was going out to start washing the windows (as Lizzie testified at the Inquest).

My opinion is that Lizzie was a extraordinarily focused, single minded and determined person who had initiated the kill plan Tuesday and her efforts would not stop until the task was completed

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Morse visiting
Post by Kat » Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:42 pm

I also think Morse had to be there, in town. He came a year and a half ago, knowing he would be staying, because he rented out his farm.
And just because Morse and Andrew did not exchange letters more recently than July 25th, doesn't mean that Emma did not write him more often. We know they wrote each other, and we know by Morse's inquest testimony that Andrew was thinking of making a will, and giving bequests outside of the family " for charitable purposes." So if Emma knew her father was about to make a will, she could write to Morse, get him back to Fall River, and between the3 of them make a plan. It had to be soon, because Andrew was in talks with Morse about his property. The girls may not have even wanted Andrew to buy the Birch property.

BTW Morse says he knows the elder Borden's eat at noon, and that's why he left the Emery's when he did. Lizzie would know they eat at noon, etc
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Post by Kat » Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:16 pm

There were 2 new Morse's come to visit in the area over that summer, but we have no investigation of them...no statements...no inquiry as to where they were... Anna and her brother William, who would be 16. They were to be visiting the Emery's, who are all related. Apparently, Anna was there Ill, when JVM came Thursday, but where was William? And Anna never married, visited JVM several times toward the end of his life in Iowa, and she ended up with 1/3 of Morse's stocks and money, and also bequeathed his silverware...hmm,

It was either George or William. I will find out more later, but today and tonight my family room was being painted (fumes

) and I'm not by big Mac where I can verify.
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Post by Reason why » Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:26 pm

Are you wondering if there was a romantic relationship there, and/or a criminal partnership? By helping to establish his alibi, maybe?
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Post by Kat » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:13 pm

Did Morse visit the Emery's? Does Anna look anything like Lizzie? Was Anna there sick, or were family Emerys covering for JVM?
Was William wandering around Second Street? Did Anna help? Or did Anna blackmail JVM to get so much of his will? Did Anna poison JVM and cause his death in 1912 because she didn't want to wait any longer for the money? Sorry, just monkey wrenches in the works...but I have ever wondered about those kids visiting and nothing said about them by Lizzie or Emma! Why would Emma go away the summer her cousins came to town all the way from Minnesota?

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Post by Reasonwhy » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:49 pm

Interesting ponders. Why the one about Anna maybe looking like Lizzie?
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Morse Family
Post by Kat » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:11 am

Here is a news item I have never published before- not necessarily in answer to your question...It took me a while to photoshop it etc Just info...
Remember this from St Paul on Saturday, so not all facts and misspelled names..
(Edit here: I wanted to stress that it was Anna Morse who sent the telegram to her father, William Bradford Morse about the killing. And we don't have any info on him coming to town, either, do we? How did these people escape police and news attention?)
ATTACHMENTS
AnnaSendsTelegram.jpg
AnnaSendsTelegram.jpg (39.26 KiB) Viewed 13 times

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Morse Family
Post by Kat » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:14 am

Anyone think they saw Lizzie outside that day, or maybe trying to buy poison, lots of questions ...monkey wrenches. But no one has ever considered the Morse kids ...

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Morse Family
Post by Kat » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:16 am

There is a Hatchet cover I'd like to post but will wait for Stefani's approval first, as Publisher.
It's pictures of these Morse Kin. "The Borden-Swansea Link" issue.

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Morse Family
Post by Kat » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:09 am

Kat wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:13 pm
Did Morse visit the Emerys?...
Or did Anna blackmail JVM to get so much of his will? Did Anna poison JVM and cause his death in 1912 because she didn't want to wait any longer for the money?...

--partial

Next are excerpts from "The Elusive John Morse," Hatchet issue... by Joe Carlson

“Uncle John Morse was down town Saturday for the first time in two weeks.” Mills County Tribune, February 12, 1912.

“Our old friend, John Morse, has been on the sick list the past week and we are sorry to note that at present writing he is little if any improved. His many friends here hope for an early change for the better.” Malvern Leader, February 22, 1912.

“Uncle John Morse continues very poorly at the home of W.E. Van Ausdale, and on Friday night Dr. Bridges, an Omaha specialist, came down to examine him. Miss Anna Morse, a teacher in the Minneapolis schools, came in Friday to be with her uncle.” Mills County Tribune, February 26, 1912.

“John V. Morse, a well known citizen of Hastings, died Friday morning at the residence of W.E. Van Ausdale, where he had made his home for some years. He had been sick for several weeks with heart trouble,” Mills County Tribune, March 4, 1912.

--Then she goes on and on suing for his estate and amounts she says were owed him when he died.
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camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:42 am

In the edited post above, a couple of attachments are referenced. Kat will be providing those attachments in subsequent posts.

Thanks!

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:45 am

In the spirit of keeping Morse threads consolidated (sort of), copied over the last posts from the Crowe Roof Hatchet thread.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:39 pm

Post by me and response by Reasonwhy (moved from other topic area)
Plz clickonpic

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:32 am

edit

This is posted not in response to the above query, but rather to provide the newspaper item about Anna Morse's telegram (that we have newly published here).
But first:
In Joe Carlson's Hatchet article "The Elusive John Morse," he opines that George Morse is the JVM nephew who came with Anna from the west. He gave a footnote, NBEveningStandard of Aug 6, 1892, pg 2, that provided the probable ages of the 2 kids, and decided by census that George would match the age given in the paper as 16.
Here is the transcription from the paper:

Evening Standard, Sat Aug 6, 1892, pg2
…….One of the most cruel incidents in connection with the murder has been the groundless speculation that has been cast upon Mr. John V. Morse, of Iowa, who was the guest of Mr. Borden for a few hours preceding the horrible affair, and who is still stopping at the house, under the constant surveillance of the police. Mr. Morse tells a straightforward story, and his time is easily accounted for. His story, which completely relieves Mr. Morse from any connection with the affair, could have been verified by a half hour’s work on the part of any of the reporters who have spread his name broadcast over the land as the possible assassin.

Mr. Morse is a brother of the first wife of Mr. Borden and always between the two men have existed the kindest feelings of friendship and regard. Mr. Morse states that he came to Fall River from New Bedford last Wednesday on the 12:35 afternoon train. He arrived at the Borden residence about 1:30 and found Mr. Borden, his wife and daughter at home---all of them sick. He stayed until between 3 and 4 o'clock, when he went to Kirby's stable, hired a carriage and drove to Luther’s Corner on business. He returned about 8:30 to 9 o'clock and sat chatting with Mr. and Mrs. Borden for some time. The former retired shortly after 9 and he and Mr. Borden a little after 10. Thursday they breakfasted about 7 o'clock, and about a quarter before 9 he walked down town to the post office, wrote a postal card and mailed it, and from there walked via Bedford, Third and Pleasant streets to No. 4 Weybosset street to Mr. James Emery's, where Mr. Borden had informed him the night before that some relatives were visiting. These were a son and daughter, about 16 and 19 years of age, children of a brother of Mr. Morse's, residing in Minnesota, whom he had not seen for a number of years. He found that the younger relative was out, but the elder was in, though indisposed, and he spent the forenoon with her and Mrs. Emery until towards noon. They invited him to stay to dinner, but he excused himself, that he had a previous engagement, Mr. Borden's last words to him being, "John, come to dinner with us." Returning, he took a street car on which six priests were passengers, three of whom sat on the seat with him. He left the car at the corner of Pleasant and Second streets, and walked direct to Mr. Borden's residence. He did not enter the house, but went to the garden in the rear for a pear or two, and when he came back was met by the girl Bridget and a man Sawyer, who asked: "Did you know Mr. and Mrs. Borden had been murdered?" This must have been very near 12 o'clock.

It is certain that the murder was committed between 10 and 11 o'clock, and at that time, according to the testimony of Mr. Morse and the ladies whom he visited, Mr. Morse was at No. 4 Weybosset street, more than a mile away. Mrs. Emery states that Mr. Morse came to her house "not long after breakfast," and that he stayed there until about 20 minutes after 11. She invited him to dinner, but he declined, saying he had an engagement. She fixes the time by saying that she had some trouble with a lock of the door when he went out. That immediately after he had gone she went for her hat to go to the store to make a purchase for dinner. It was half past 11. At the store she again looked at the clock there, wondering how much time she still had left to get dinner. The store clock said 11:40.

Mr. Morse's niece confirms the story, and Mrs. Horace G. Kingsley, who resides on the first floor apartment, says that she saw Mr. Morse, come to the house early in the forenoon, and that she heard the trouble he had at the door and saw him as he was going away. She was getting her dinner at the time and it was after 11 o'clock, though she did not notice the exact hour.

--And here is the telegram Anna Morse sent her father, William Bradford Morse, informing him of the murders in Fall River

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:46 am

Morse Family
Post by Kat » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:30 pm

camgarsky4 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:06 am
Do we have Anna’s birthdate? Also, in Morse's inquest testimony (pg 10/103) he mentions that Anna's grandmother had told him Anna was in town. Since Anna's grandmother on John's side would be John's mother, he must be referencing William's (his brother) wife's mother.

Anna Morse was born in 1874, so she was 18 years old and her brother was 16.
Her grandmother on her mother's side is Susannah Vinnicum Mason, and her grandmother on her father's side would have been "Rhody" Morrison Morse, who died 1843, but if there is such a thing as a "step grandmother" then that would be Anthony Morse's second wife, Hannah Chase
Almy, who died 1870.

Reasonwhy · Post by **Reasonwhy** » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:28 pm

Say one suspects JVMorse’s involvement in the crimes, or at least believes he was concerned about the sisters’ future. What sense can we then make of the fact that out of all the Borden sisters’ many Morse uncles and aunts, only he stepped in to their rescue? Were none of the rest, after Sarah’s death so many years before, close to them/Andrew? Is it known if any of these relations were close at any time? And what of the Gardners’ potential for involvement? We know they were geographically and emotionally close. How did they feel about Andrew and Abby’s treatment of Lizzie and Emma?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:44 pm

The patriarch Anthony Morse went west, JVM went west, William Bradford Morse went west (so all his progeny were in "the west".) Fernando Morse (another brother) went to the Civil War, and after, settled in Illinois (considered "west"), and sister Selecta married a man Shaw from Maine, and they settled in Illinois. Some of their family went all the way to Colorado.
So Morse's were pretty much distributed thru Minnesota, Illinois, Iowa and Colorado.
Oh, and Anthony had a second wife (out west) and they produced two 1/2 siblings to JVM ect., Arabella and Alvarado. JVM did not get along with Arabella, precisely stating in his will she would get $10. He also excluded nieces named Borden.

The Morse family tree is at this link, in Joe's Hatchet article "The Elusive John Morse"
https://lizzieandrewborden.com/HatchetO ... morse.html

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:06 pm

Earlier, in this thread, there is the paste of comments of mine that state Anna hung around JVM and got a large share of his estate. I mentioned she had been visiting him, and again, when he was dying. Here is a fragment of the news item that shows her involvement with JVM. (Also, for "conspiracy" purposes, notice the man renting the JVM farm is a druggist

)

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:19 pm

Reasonwhy wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:28 pm Say one suspects JVMorse’s involvement in the crimes, or at least believes he was concerned about the sisters’ future. What sense can we then make of the fact that out of all the Borden sisters’ many Morse uncles and aunts, only he stepped in to their rescue? Were none of the rest, after Sarah’s death so many years before, close to them/Andrew? Is it known if any of these relations were close at any time? And what of the Gardners’ potential for involvement? We know they were geographically and emotionally close. How did they feel about Andrew and Abby’s treatment of Lizzie and Emma?

I looked at the Knowlton Papers ( letters or "sanity survey") and the "Witness Statements" to try to find any comments by these family members you are asking about, but did not find anything there.
But I think the treatment of Abbie and Andrew by Lizzie and Emma, as questionable or unacceptable, would more commonly be remarked upon, as the paternal rights of Andrew to treat his family any way he chose would be the predominant social more, as I'm very sure you already know. Maybe I misunderstood your last query?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:30 pm

Oh, and because of the lawsuit over the will of JVM by Anna, against her aunt's husband, Shaw, the Borden sisters, without making a claim, were included after all. Emma refused her share but Lizzie accepted hers. Whether it was her man of business who was avaris on her behalf, I do not know.

I guess that's Cook? 1913?

wall59 · Post by **wall59** » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:18 pm

Maybe Lizzie felt Uncle John owed her for something. Ummmm.....

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:01 pm

It wasn't much..let me check Rebello, if he has the amount...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:23 pm

Rebello, pg 74 says "...entitled to 1/6, Lisbeth Borden and Emma Borden, entitled to 1/12 ($605.97)..."

Confusing. However, although Emma declined, the $ was put into an account "with the Clerk of the District Court..Iowa" and then was petitioned for by her rep, Preston Gardner after Emma died.
The money has to go somewhere, once assigned, so it's likely, if Cook was still "Lisbeth's" man of business, he would probably accept and manage it, knowing that. Sooner or later it would have to be credited to her account.
I can't tell if Lisbeth got 1/6 and Emma 1/12. .???
Back then (x18 for now) the amount would be not quite $11,000.
When I said it wasn't much, I thought it was $303 each, splitting the 606!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:33 pm

wall59 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:18 pm Maybe Lizzie felt Uncle John owed her for something. Ummmm.....

I'm trying to think what Morse would "owe" Lizzie, and why?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:02 am

Anna Morse is a spinster schoolteacher in the Excelsior, Minnesota school system, 4th and 5th grades.
In 1901 she travels to Seattle and the Pacific Coast. Minnesota Journal, 6-29-1901.
In 1901 she resigns her teaching job by telegram, while in Snonomish. IBID, 8-31-1901.
In 1903 she buys $400 worth of real estate. St. Paul Globe, 3-26-1903.(It doesn't say where, but the paper is Minnesota.)

In 1912 she is in Spokane at a Convention, "Royal Neighbors of America", auxiliary of "Modern Woodmen" at an Oddfellows Lodge, with District Deputy, Mrs Deliah Kingsley, of Lewiston, Idaho. *(My attention is drawn to the name Deliah Kingsley, because there was a Mrs. Horace G. Kingsley boarding at Weybosset St and was supposedly a witness to JVM's visit Aug 4th. I have no way of knowing if Deliah is the same as Mrs Horace G., darn it! But quite a coincidence!)

Then, of course, there is Anna embroiled in the dispute over JVM's will, 1912-1913 where she made out pretty well.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:16 am

Now, for the Emerys, who may or may not have given JVM and Anna Morse a false alibi.
Len Rebello, “Meet the Emerys", Hatchet May 2008
--partial

…Daniel and Lydia [Emery] resided in Fall River from 1885, remaining there until 1894. They moved to Taunton, Massachusetts in 1896, residing there until 1898, where Daniel worked as a supervisor at Whittenton Manufacturing. Daniel and Lydia moved to Tiverton, Rhode Island, a town that borders Fall River on the south, in 1899. While in Fall River, Daniel had been a machinist, a carder at the Narragansett Mills, and, at the time of the Borden murders, was an overseer at the Hargraves Mills, and a grocer and photographer while in Tiverton.
By 1910, Daniel and Lydia relocated to Oakland, in Alameda County, California, where he worked as an elevator construction foreman. The Emery’s son Charles, his wife, Edith, and their two children, also resided in California. Charles was a telegraph operator for a newspaper. Both Daniel and his son Charles were residents in Pinellas County, St. Petersburg, Florida by 1920. Daniel worked as a manager of apartments. By 1930, he had married again. His second wife was Francis S. Emery.
Daniel L. Emery died in Florida, on April 11, 1950, at the age of 89.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:32 am

Kat - do you have the article that talks about the emery’s playing croquet around the time of the murders?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:51 pm

Len Rebello references this item in his article (underling mine):

The Fall River Daily Globe, Friday, August 5, 1892, 1+
......
Some Discrepancies

In Part of the Stories Told by
Morse Yesterday.

Immediately after the second interview with Morse the reporter confided his suspicions to a policeman who was deeply interested and went direct to headquarters where the first orders were given to keep Morse under surveillance.
Then the reporter went to the home of Mr. Emery, No. 4 Weybosset street, to find whether or not Morse had told the truth about his visit to that house.
Officer Medley who was early and ardently a supporter of the theory that the author of the crime was not far away accompanied the Globe man. Mr. Emery and his wife were found on the back lawn playing croquet and went in the house with the visitors when the following conversation took place, Medley being the principal spokesman.
“Mrs. Emery, did you have any callers today?”
“Yes, several.”
“Who?”
“John Morse and several others.”
“What time did Morse come to the house?”
“At 9:30 a.m.”
“What time did he leave?”
“At 11:30 a.m.”
“Are you positive about this.”
“Yes sir very positive for I know it was that hour because I looked at the clock and then went to the store to get some things for dinner.”
Mr. Emery is a mill hand and comes home from the Hargraves near by at 12 o’clock. That would give Mrs. Emery 30 minutes to go to the store, get the goods, prepare them and cook dinner, in order to have her husband’s dinner on time that day.
Just at this time, Miss Annie, the neice of John Morse, came in. She was asked:
“What time did Morse leave the house?”
“Shortly after 11 o’clock. I think it was 20 minutes after 11.”
This shows that the two women are not agreed upon the exact minute of his departure.
The afternoon papers were lying on the center table and they had been read, and Mrs. Emery had seen that the murder was committed about 11 o’clock. She said that she asked Morse to stay for dinner and that he refused with the answer, “I have an engagement and must go.”
Mrs. Emery and Annie were of the opinion that he was going to New Bedford on the 12 o’clock train as he never mentioned the fact to them that he had been invited to dinner by Mr. Borden as he claimed. Mrs. Emery said that she supposed that Morse left the house and heard of the murder on the street and that he went to the Borden home instead of New Bedford.
Morse in his first interview at about noon told the reporter that he went to the Emery’s to see a niece and nephew that he had not seen before. Miss Annie said that she had seen her uncle Morse twice before. Once three weeks ago when she arrived at Warren, R.I., from Excelsior, Minnesota and once when she was a child.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:43 am

Thanks Kat.

I presume the reporter mentions the afternoon papers on the table to establish that Emery could have fixed the time of John's departure to imply that he could not have done the killing. That would mesh with Kat's pondering on Mrs. Emery and Anna helping with the alibi.

There was also a report of the lower level neighbor seeing/hearing Morse leave the Emery's as she left her home to go get her noon meal. Didn't find this in the witness statements, so assuming this collaborating witness was via a newspaper article.

Medley seems to have been a tenacious investigator and came up with some of the best info, even though much of it deteriorated (ex. Cook & Augusta statements). So my supposition is that if he sensed a loose thread with the Morse alibi, he would have pursued it. That is just an opinion.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:01 pm

It's Mrs Kingsley, who I mentioned in the earlier post here about a timeline of Anna's life's actions.
Also, the open newspaper also implies they now knew about the murders but were playing croquet!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:34 pm

Yes, you're right she's not in the "Witness Statements" search, which surprises me, nor is she in The Knowlton Papers, or the "Hip-Bath Collection." She's in Rebello, but due to newspaper item. She's also in Hoffman.

I just researched my computer and found a voting record I had saved that has Horace A. Kingsley, and Mrs. Beatrice Emery and Robert D.Emery, L.A. County, CA., 1934, all living on Gramercy Place, differing St #s.! We know the Emerys went to California.
The Emerys and Kingsleys must be related, so that "witness" might be perjured.