Hatchet vs Blood Spatter

[Steve88778]

It is on page 56 of Volume One of the trial transcripts. When they are talking about fixing the time at 27 or 28 minutes of 11 as the time he headed for home. Or headed South.

[Kat]

Well, I read the complete opening statement by Moody and nowhere do I find that Mr. Borden came home early. I at least appreciate the chance to discover that "fact" but it was, unfortunately a wild-goose-chase.
The record does have the phrase "...contrary to the usual custom in that house," which you used, but goes on to finish, "...Bridget found the front door locked..."
Maybe your Kindle version is faulty, or maybe ....well, I cannot know what the 'maybe' might be.
It was not a waste of time tho, of course, as re-reading parts of the trial is always rewarding.
But so far, I still ask, why do folks say Andrew came home early? It has to come from somewhere.

[Kat]

I did not see your new post before I posted my comments.
So now I am going to be directed to somewhere else?
Please will you type the transcription here as I have no use for Kindle page numbers, thanks.

[PossumPie]

Good ole Uncle John Morse - Leaves early / comes back, picks a pear like nothing ever happened . But just in case, he just happens to have in his holster some bits of information on the trolly car. Three pieces to be exact. 1) witnessed priests - 6 of them and Irish. Then he remembers his car number - ( i can understand that one ) and 3) the strangest of them all the badge number on the conductor's cap.

Sat., Aug. 6th, 1892:
"The conductor of the car yesterday was a "spare," named Whittaker, and the News has been unable to find him to-day, as he would probably remember the circumstance of the six priests and Mr. Morse's riding with him. Mr. Morse's story has, however, been confirmed, so far as the priests being on a car is concerned, by Conductor Kennedy of the car going east, who says he passed the car with the priests on the hill by the Pocasset engine house, about where Mr. Morse took the car, and that he took its time and it was just 22 minutes after 11 o'clock. "

TESTIMONY MORSE:
A. When I went into the door. I went around, before I went into the house, to a pear tree to get a couple of
pears. When I came back, the servant girl met me at the door, and asked if I had heard the news. I said no. She
said Mr. and Mrs. Borden were both murdered. A man named Sawyer stood there at the time.

That is the extent of confirmation of Morse's alibi. The rest of what you mention (car number, cap number) is an apocryphal myth that has lingered and been reposted for so long that people believe it. I know the forum is for entertainment, but we make an attempt to find original sources, which is why many of our posts contain word-for-word testimony. It is fair to say that most of us would remember riding in a cart with 6 Irish priests...
Other misinformation about Morse is that he returned to find a huge crowd, ignored them, and went to eat pears. He testified that he saw nobody upon his return, and being a bit peckish walked down the side of the house, grabbed a pear or two, and came back to find Bridget in the side doorway who told him Andrew was dead. Nothing suspicious about it, it was nearly lunchtime and everyone in the family seemed to love those pears.

[PossumPie]

Well, I read the complete opening statement by Moody and nowhere do I find that Mr. Borden came home early. I at least appreciate the chance to discover that "fact" but it was, unfortunately a wild-goose-chase.
The record does have the phrase "...contrary to the usual custom in that house," which you used, but goes on to finish, "...Bridget found the front door locked..."
Maybe your Kindle version is faulty, or maybe ....well, I cannot know what the 'maybe' might be.
It was not a waste of time tho, of course, as re-reading parts of the trial is always rewarding.
But so far, I still ask, why do folks say Andrew came home early? It has to come from somewhere.

EVERETT COOK BANK TELLER
PRELIM. TESTIMONY
Q. Was it Mr. Borden’s habit to come in there?
A. Almost every day.
Q. At any particular time?
A. No sir.
Q. Any part of the day, whether forenoon or afternoon?
A. No sir.

I can find no testimony that Andrew walked at the same time for the same length of time every day. Apparently, sometimes he walked in the afternoon as evidenced by the teller's testimony. Perhaps knowing that he was ill that day we all assume that he cut his normal walking time short.

[camgarsky4]

Agree Possum. I think we all extrapolate out his feeling poorly with truncating his walk. He might have and he might not have. Getting home roughly 1 hour and 15 minutes before a noon meal time, might also suggest a shortened walk. Again, pure supposition.

Due to physical proximity, I would guess that as a normal course of action, if Andrew visited the post office, he would go ahead and do his downtown 'tour'. If Lizzie counted on Andrew being out that morning, her asking him to drop off her letter to Emma would be a means to make sure he headed out that morning.

Lizzie Inquest testimony
Q. What was the next thing that happened after you got down?
A. Maggie went out of doors to wash the windows and father came out into the kitchen and said he did not know whether he would go down to the post office or not. And then I sprinkled some handkerchiefs to iron.

As a side note, I think this answer by Lizzie has been under discussed. Since Andrew was hesitant to go downtown because he felt poorly (presumably), then someone convinced him to go anyway. Common sense would signal that Lizzie was that person since he delivered her letter. Either she was a rude daughter or she needed him to go on his walk or perhaps both.

[Steve88778]

That is the extent of confirmation of Morse's alibi. The rest of what you mention (car number, cap number) is an apocryphal myth t

It has been well documented that he did mention the badge number on the conductor's cap. So let me show you the sources.

1) In the Lizzie Borden Quarterly Volume III , number 4 , October 1996, Page 16 . Mrs. Florence Brigham the daughter-in-law of Mary Brigham tells us about luncheons her mother-in-law used to have with Rev. Mr. Buck and Emma and the relationship Mary Brigham had with Emma Borden, she goes on to say that there is a postcard that Emma sent to Mary Brigham when she was traveling and it’s on display at the historical society that reads: “I’m still concerned about that uncle in the backyard eating pears that day with all of that going on in the house where he was a house guest. That doesn’t seem right to me. And when he can tell the number on the conductors cap, that doesn’t sound right to me. Nobody has gotten him out of the way but I haven’t any theories one way or the other. Who knows ? I haven’t any theories one way or the other.”

2) You can refer to attorney Arthur Phillips interview. In which he stated that he remembered the number on the street car and the number on the conductor's cap number as well as people that he met along the way...
RECENT SOURCE: New Bedford Sunday Standard Times, May 13,1934...

So there is no myth here, it's a fact - unless the interview with Mr. Phillips and Emma Borden were fabricated.
Also there is no reason why an author such as Victoria Lincoln would put this in her published book. That may not mean much to the Mr. Know It Alls on this forum especially when you school them on fact.

[PossumPie]

That is the extent of confirmation of Morse's alibi. The rest of what you mention (car number, cap number) is an apocryphal myth t

It has been well documented that he did mention the badge number on the conductor's cap. So let me show you the sources.

1) In the Lizzie Borden Quarterly Volume III , number 4 , October 1996, Page 16 . Mrs. Florence Brigham the daughter-in-law of Mary Brigham tells us about luncheons her mother-in-law used to have with Rev. Mr. Buck and Emma and the relationship Mary Brigham had with Emma Borden, she goes on to say that there is a postcard that Emma sent to Mary Brigham when she was traveling and it’s on display at the historical society that reads: “I’m still concerned about that uncle in the backyard eating pears that day with all of that going on in the house where he was a house guest. That doesn’t seem right to me. And when he can tell the number on the conductors cap, that doesn’t sound right to me. Nobody has gotten him out of the way but I haven’t any theories one way or the other. Who knows ? I haven’t any theories one way or the other.”

2) You can refer to attorney Arthur Phillips interview. In which he stated that he remembered the number on the street car and the number on the conductor's cap number as well as people that he met along the way...
RECENT SOURCE: New Bedford Sunday Standard Times, May 13,1934...

So there is no myth here, it's a fact - unless the interview with Mr. Phillips and Emma Borden were fabricated.
Also there is no reason why an author such as Victoria Lincoln would put this in her published book. That may not mean much to the Mr. Know It Alls on this forum especially when you school them on fact.

The information you mention from LBQ refers to third-hand gossip from Florence Brigham. The postcard does NOT as far as I can determine say anything about the badge number, etc. That entire quote is from Ms. Brigham, not the postcard. No other evidence or search of the historical society confirms a postcard with that bombshell on it.
Ms. Lincoln is generally good at verifying facts, but her book contains several factual errors thus isn't "testimony" level. Florence and Lincoln seem to have both read the 1936 Phillips article as there is no other known source. That article was written prior to the other two sources and that article was written almost 45 years AFTER the murders...hardly substantiated or evidence-based. After a world-famous crime, anyone who ever met Lizzie went around telling tales of suspicious things she said or did. Most of which are exaggerations, mis-rememberances, or just made up.

[Kat]

The Phillips news article is in several ways inaccurate, as is the final Borden Chapter in his fascicle3 in his posthumously produced "History of Fall River." His brother-in-law Easton finished that chapter. It's probably best not to use either as source. Besides, newspapers should not ever be considered as source, only sworn testimony. I don't even consider questions asked by attorneys at trial as source, but the answer is, because it is sworn.
We hope to be discerning in our interepretations of the material, and open to correction if proven.

[Steve88778]

The information you mention from LBQ refers to third-hand gossip from Florence Brigham.

The postcard was written by Emma Borden. I think I will believe her hand written postcard.

And I quote - “I’m still concerned about that uncle in the backyard eating pears that day with all of that going on in the house where he was a house guest. That doesn’t seem right to me. And when he can tell the number on the conductors cap, that doesn’t sound right to me. Nobody has gotten him out of the way but I haven’t any theories one way or the other. Who knows ? I haven’t any theories one way or the other.”

It could be 9th hand gossip it can be believed or not. I am just stating what the sister wrote.

[Steve88778]

The Phillips news article is in several ways inaccurate, as is the final Borden Chapter in his fascicle3 in his posthumously produced "History of Fall River."

An error or errors does not negate this interview. I'll just refer to the postcard that is supposedly on display. I dont need to produce tons of sources.

[Steve88778]

On this badge number thing - I have sources that it was said. Now it's your turn to prove me wrong.

[PossumPie]

The information you mention from LBQ refers to third-hand gossip from Florence Brigham.

The postcard was written by Emma Borden. I think I will believe her hand written postcard.

Show me a picture of the BACK of the postcard with that written on it. A postcard with that written on it would be reproduced on every Borden website. You are confusing a statement of Florence Brigham as being from Emma on a postcard. The thing you are quoting was never attributed to Emma Borden nor is it on any postcard.

[Steve88778]

I am just posting what was said - posted the paragraph that is important. But the source was from the LBQ listed in my reply. I mean what is plainer that this passage ?

Emma sent to Mary Brigham when she was traveling and it’s on display at the historical society that reads:

I guess we will have to disagree on this. I posted 2 sources. If they are wrong then I will admit it. - Your turn...

[Kat]

EEEK...I think you edited your post around the time I finished my response. Your red bold statement didn't look like you were yelling when I read it...

I am just posting what was said - posted the paragraph that is important. But the source was from the LBQ listed in my reply. I mean what is plainer that this passage ?

Emma sent to Mary Brigham when she was traveling and it’s on display at the historical society that reads:

I guess we will have to disagree on this. I posted 2 sources. If they are wrong then I will admit it. - Your turn...

Unfortunately, the interpretation of this part of the LBQ article is misunderstood by the reader. Here is the part in dispute:
I have my mother-in-law's diary. Unfortunately, she didn't start it until 1902. She does tell about entertaining Emma for lunch one day. And she remembers her staying at the (Reverend) Buck's and she came to lunch and had a 'nice talk' that afternoon. I thought I'd like to know what they talked about! And almost the next day Mother Brigham wrote, 'Went over to the Hood's. She had a luncheon for Emma Borden and we had a nice afternoon.' I wonder what they talked about that afternoon, too. The Hoods lived down the street on French Street at that time. Mother Brigham never mentioned Emma again in her diary. Yet, there is a postcard on display at the Historical Society that Emma sent to my mother-in-law while traveling."
--This part refers to the relationship between the ladies.

--This next part is Mrs Brigham's personal comments, as a separate thought
"I'm still concerned about that uncle sitting out in the back yard eating pears that day with all of that going on in the house where he was a house guest. That doesn't seem right to me. And when he could tell the number on the conductor's cap that doesn't sound right to me. Nobody's got him out of the way but I haven't any theories one way or the other. Who knows? I haven't any theories one way or the other."

The Lizzie Borden Quarterly, Oct 1996, pg 16, by Maynard Bertolet

When reading, one can tell it is separte by context and by the punctuation.
In my own opinion, no one from Fall River would write such as that on a postcard, anyway. It would be shocking.

[Steve88778]

Ok that I understand - and it could be Mrs Bingham's thought about "that uncle" - of theirs, I guess.
It's the ( THAT READS ) part that that tells me what the postcard said.

I dont see anything wrong with that obscure message - if you picked up the postcard and read that - it doesn't mention any names other than who wrote it. They did a lot of weird things back then - like today.

At one point or another a/the conductors badge number surfaced - who said it ? Who was taking the trolly ? It came from somewhere. We can not pick and choose what newspaper articles we want to use - I go by how many times it was said. Of course from different papers and people. We can not go by sworn testimony on gossip - and gossip is not a negative thing it's just something irrelevant to the trial. I suppose if Morse was asked - can you prove you were on the trolly ? - then I am sure he was ready. In fact I'll bet he would have sung like a canary all that he saw. He remembered the coach number and the 6 men / 6 Irish men / 6 Irish priests to be exact. - Six - who counts people ? I don't.
But thanks -

[mbhenty]

I first met Florence Brigham back in the 70s when I did some wiring in the building. I discovered she was excited about talking history about the city, its people, and the Historical Society building which serves said history. But when I would ask her about Lizzie Borden she appeared to change the subject and continue on about the Robesons, the Braytons, or the Underground Railroad, etc. But very little about Lizzie. She thought the history of the murders as being below Fall River History and a tragic event not to gossip about. She didn't like talking about it.

Now as for the postcard mentioned above, where it talks about Morse, the badge number, etc..

It does not exist.

The Historical Society does have a post card sent to Emma from Mary but it is one sent to Emma when Mary Ella Brigham was vacationing in California, where she mentions the weather, a boat ride to Catalina, Los Angeles, etc.

It is very doubtful that anyone would discuss such a topic over a postcard. Sometimes gossip grows wings. Emma and Mary did talk over the phone often or in letters. Though it has been reported that Mary Ella said very little about Lizzie or not mention her much.

Emma and Mary Ella were close friends and corresponded a lot. The Brigham house was only five houses away from Maplecroft and right around the corner on Belmont Street. Emma visited there often, getting together with Rev. Buck, who lived five or six blocks away from French Street and Maplecroft.

Picture of Florence below. She was ravishingly beautiful when she was a young woman.

[PossumPie]

Ok that I understand - and it could be Mrs Bingham's thought about "that uncle" - of theirs, I guess.
It's the ( THAT READS ) part that that tells me what the postcard said.

I dont see anything wrong with that obscure message - if you picked up the postcard and read that - it doesn't mention any names other than who wrote it. They did a lot of weird things back then - like today.

At one point or another a/the conductors badge number surfaced - who said it ? Who was taking the trolly ? It came from somewhere. We can not pick and choose what newspaper articles we want to use - I go by how many times it was said. Of course from different papers and people. We can not go by sworn testimony on gossip - and gossip is not a negative thing it's just something irrelevant to the trial. I suppose if Morse was asked - can you prove you were on the trolly ? - then I am sure he was ready. In fact I'll bet he would have sung like a canary all that he saw. He remembered the coach number and the 6 men / 6 Irish men / 6 Irish priests to be exact. - Six - who counts people ? I don't.
But thanks -

Glad you understand Steve. We are not trying to be nit-picky, but understand that years of posting on this forum has made us extra-careful to get documentation of the FIRST time something is stated as fact. You say at some point the conductor's badge number story surfaces...I agree but think in real-life terms: Once while teaching I demonstrated how psychics use the "Barnum Effect" I said to a student "I'm getting a psychic vibration from you that you lost a close relative. She said, "Yes my grandfather last year" and unconsciously touched her necklace. I said "you were close to him, he gave you something -jewelry?" she teared up and said, "YES! this necklace." I went on to discuss how I did the trick explaining it fully that there was no "psychic" powers, only the Barnum effect. By the end of the day, the rumor was around school that I was psychic and actually told the class the grandfather's name, when he died, and other details that I NEVER said. People weren't lying, but each time they told the story someone added a bit of exaggeration until I was a great psychic! Perhaps the first person told the second about the "air-tight alibi" Morse being away from the house, and that turned into he knew the trolley number and that morphed into the conductor's badge number. Morse seems smart enough that if he were setting up an alibi the 6 Irish priests would have been enough, why overplay it?

[Steve88778]

Glad you understand Steve.

Psychic readings / vibes ?? -Alrighty then.... I said that it could be Mary B's words but they weren't they were written by Emma Borden - else the statement would not say and ( "it reads" )

I am done arguing this postcard stuff - When I get some other sources I will post them - and of course they will all be wrong.

[Steve88778]

Now as for the postcard mentioned above, where it talks about Morse, the badge number, etc..

It does not exist.

OK that I can understand - the LBQ is prob wrong and maybe the card does not exist. So then no need to debate this - I am only going on what I read. So if you say that it does not exist I can take your word for it. There is another source that I am sure is wrong as well.

[PossumPie]

Glad you understand Steve.

Psychic readings / vibes ?? -Alrighty then.... I said that it could be Mary B's words but they weren't they were written by Emma Borden - else the statement would not say and ( "it reads" )

I am done arguing this postcard stuff - When I get some other sources I will post them - and of course they will all be wrong.

You need to read people's posts more closely. I was NOT saying I was a psychic but the opposite. That by "seeing" vague things that could apply to almost anyone, the person believed that I had powers. Out of my entire post, you pulled out the words psychic and vibe and tried to imply that I believe that...you misread the entire post.

[Steve88778]

I don't want to be on this site anymore - its not as informative as it used to be - for me at least. I am asking the Admins to delete my account.

[camgarsky4]

Steve -- I'm guessing you view me as one of the "know it all's". Sorry you feel that way, I have tried in good faith on multiple occasions over the past year to provide you with accurate information regarding Morse's alibi, but I've come up short.

Was going to suggest you contact the historical society directly on the postcard. That way you get a clean, independent answer.

Also wanted to let you know that the 1943 Phillips inspired book (he didn't actually write it) is available for free to read on the Lizzie Borden Virtual Library site associated with this forum.

Good luck finding a more informative Lizzie forum.

[mbhenty]

oops. posted in the wrong place.

[Kat]

I said that it could be Mary B's words but they weren't they were written by Emma Borden - else the statement would not say and ( "it reads" )

--partial
Just to be clear, when I showed the actual content of the article from The LBQ, with the passages in question, I did not leave out any words, especially not the words "it reads."
Unfortunately, that is some kind of misunderstanding. Those words were not in that article.

Plz note:red marks on page and underlining were made by me in 1996 upon first reading the article. We were interested in Borden postcards at the time, and had nothing to do with the discussion here. I just added in green the citation on the photo copy tonight.

[Kat]

I said that when I found the citation of blood on Dr.s shoes I would put it here...
Found it- and the source info is longer than the interesting item!
1. "PROCEEDINGS"
The Legend 100 Years After the Crime--
A Conference on the Lizzie Borden Case
Bristol Community College, Fall River, MA
Aug. 3-5, 1992
The Hip-Bath Collection, Barbara Ashton, p211 +

"What Andrew Jennings decided to sequester may turn out to be as important as what he decided to reveal."

This collection was, in part, donated to the FRHS, in 1968, with some items requested returned to the (Waring) family.
Ms. Ashton, author, had a look and made some notes:
...(from Andrew Jennings notebook...)

d.  Crowther John--Reporter on News got blood on his shoes while going around house, says Dr. Foley did too.

[PossumPie]

Thanks, Kat for the LBQ article. The fact that the quote states "I'm still concerned about THAT uncle" proves that it was not written by Emma who would have said MY uncle. If one reads the article too fast it may seem confusing.

[mbhenty]

Sorry about that.

I was not trying to "Prove" anyone wrong. It was not a challenge. Just stating a fact as I know it.

The forum is not just a bunch of souls talking Borden crime. It is a source. An affirmative source of identifiable and verified information on the case. It takes pride on being erudite and accurate. Along with some chit chat and good humored foolishness, you understand.

Now, if someone offers some significant and obscure information, with proof to back it up, I am open to being wrong.

Right now I am debating a friend who claims to have proof that Lizzie Borden had owned one of the early manufactured electric cars. I asked for proof. Such as vintage or timely records of the car being sold to Lizzie Borden. An address proving that it was in fact Lizzie Borden of Maplecroft. What it comes down to is documentation. Some legal document, bill of sale, etc. If true, how neat is that. May indeed be lost or overlooked information that is factual. Until then it is very doubtful.

We have a record of the cars Lizzie owned at her time of death. But what she had before that is unknown, or at the very least, hidden in the archives of time and space. There may indeed be proof. There is no assurance you are wrong just because I say one does not exist. But I have been studying the case since the 70s and have never heard of such a postcard written to and by Emma or Mary.

One of my warning to many here on the forum has always been, don't believe everything you read just because it came from a Victoria Lincoln, a Frank Spiering, or Edward Radin. Successful people who have sold thousands of books and made a name for themselves. Those accomplishments don't make you right. Ask the magician pulling a rabbit out of his hat.

For many years I collected postcards. I also wrote a elementary article for the Hatchet on collecting postcards. At one time I had a collection of around six or seven hundred Fall River post cards. Every time I would go to a bookstore or a book show I would look for Fall River post cards. So I could scrub the writing on the back and perhaps find that one lost Lizzie Borden postcard. I came across many Fall River postcards signed, "Lizzie". But could never prove it was sent by a Borden. They had addresses to where they were sent but no proof of Lizzie's address on Second Street or French.

I eventually donated my Fall River postcards to Stefani who was excited by their existence, this when I lost confidence and any desire to live or collect anything Fall River that does not have a connection to the Borden case.

[PossumPie]

Mbhenty, thank you for your concise warning about verifying wild claims. I'm sure Lizzie, Emma, Andrew, and Abbey sent postcards during their lives- they were inexpensive ways to keep in touch. But I highly doubt that any of them would "air their dirty laundry" on a postcard easily read by anyone along its route to the recipient. Even if there were a postcard with the highly suspicious discussion about Uncle Morse, I'd need strict authentication as Emma would never put such a statement on an open card. After all of these years, I doubt some smoking gun letter or card will turn up shedding light on the case. The only thing reasonably close would be public disclosure of all Jenning's notes about the trial and case.

[mbhenty]

Thanks greatly, PossumPie:

Just because one may not be privy to information heard for the first time does not mean that it is not true.

Even if it sound wild. It would be imprudent to throw out everything claimed unless you are certain.

Trust but verify. (One of Pres. Regan's favorite axioms)

I knew about a postcard in the archives of the FRHS; one sent by Mary Brigham to ???. I couldn't remember what it said. But I knew it did not say what Steven had claimed. I would have remembered. It was a landmark declaration and too good to be true. So my mission was to trust but verify before posting. A quick look through Parallel Lives and there it was. Mary Ella's postcard. I believe it is the only post card owned by the Historical Society that was sent to Emma.

But there must have been many, many postcards sent and received by the Borden girls. And indeed many Borden family members may still have them stockpiled away. The curator at the society said I would be surprised if I knew what still existed. But family members are a private group and not prepared to entertain or charm us with what they possess. And I for one don't blame them. And as far as anything popping up to shed more light on the case, it is doubtful that it even exists, as you say. But doubtful in not improbable. Who knows. But nah

I spent lots of time in bookstores buying and selling over the years. I almost opened my own Antiquarian bookshop back in the 80s. Book dealers and sellers always scrubbed postcards for what was said or who may have said it. Why? Because you never know. May be someone famous. Imagine finding a postcard from Zelda Fitzgerald to Pauline Pfeiffer saying, "you keep your husband Ernest away from Frances. He's turning him into an alcoholic."

How great would that be.

On another topic and for those who were fond of his posts:

Sadly, Steve88778 has left the building. We will not be hearing from him any longer.

[mbhenty]

Now here's a postcard of Fall River from my old collection. (Click on photo to make BIG)

In the foreground, right corner is the roof of the old post office. Way over to the left is the white belfry of the Police station. Above that just right is Lizzie's church. Above that is Durfee High School. And the big white building upper-right-off-center is the Lincoln School. Named after Victoria Lincoln's grandfather.

On the back of the card is signed OMC. There is no mailing address and it was probably mailed in an envelope, which defeated the purpose of sending a much cheaper postcard. But some people did not want others reading what they wrote. As for Lizzie Borden. She always sent her Postcards out in envelopes.

Many cards have funny talk on the back. Some collectors want their cards unwritten and pristine. I found the ones with writing much more interesting, if not historical.

On the back is a charming if not humorous declaration about attending church.

[Kat]

Right now I am debating a friend who claims to have proof that Lizzie Borden had owned one of the early manufactured electric cars. I asked for proof.

---partial

Your friend may have read this in The Spectator newspaper. See link below for article in The Hatchet. I knew I had read that info recently, but I had to remember where!

https://lizzieandrewborden.com/HatchetO ... -1998.html

The Hatchet
Vol. 4, No 4
“Family Secrets”, by Kat Koorey
And reprint from The Spectator, Jan-Feb 1997, Linda Andrade Rodrigues
Pg 17
“Pete recalled a special outing with Miss Lizbeth. ‘I went to church with my mother one Sunday, and we sat with Lizzie,’ he said. ‘That day she gave us a ride home in her electric car. It had no steering wheel, just a bar that went up and over. There was one seat in the front and three in the back, and I sat in the back with Lizzie and my mother while Mr. Terry, the chauffeur, drove us home. I thought riding in Miss Lizbeth’s car was the greatest thing that could have happened to me.’”

[Kat]

Well, I wondered if you had a bet with your friend, and whether you accept a news account as a source? If I helped your friend "win" maybe he'll buy me a cup of coffee or something? See what they think?