Did Lizzie buy Prussic Acid ?

[PossumPie]

Bence Inquest testimony

Q. You remember the day of this murder?
A. I do positively.
Q. I suppose you heard of it very soon afterwards?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was your attention then attracted to the fact of anybody's endeavoring to buy poison at your store the day
before?
A. My attention was directed to that point along towards six or seven o'clock in the evening of the day of the
murder.

[further down the testimony]

A. There was a lady came in the shop; she says to me, talking of it as everybody did that day, she says, "why,
I understand they are suspecting Miss Borden, the daughter."
Q. This was the evening after the murder?
A. Yes.
Q. I do not care for that. I thought it was the evening before the murder?
A. No Sir.
Q. You may finish it, now you have begun.
A. I says "is that so?" She says yes, and walked out then. It started me to thinking of this that had happened
the day before. The other gentleman that was there at the time, he came in shortly afterwards, and he remarked to
me that that was rather a singular coincidence. I said yes I thought it was. I then spoke to one of my intimate
friends, a Doctor, and I told him what I had heard &c, and he says then you ought to report it. I says I think so
myself. We were busy with prescriptions at the time, I was alone at the time in the shop. About somewhere
around eight o'clock Officer Doherty and Officer Harrington came up.
Q. Did you afterwards go to the house?
A. I did, yes sir.
Q. When was that?
A. I should say between eight and nine o'clock.
Q. What day was that?
A. That was the fourth, the day of the murder.
Q. When did you go to the house?
A. Eight o'clock in the evening after the murder.

Ok, this is VERY confusing but here is the best that I can make of it:
The morning before the murders (10am or so) Lizzie came in and asked for poison
Bence knew her as "Miss Borden" but owing to the number of Bordens around, didn't know her as Adrew's daughter.
7pm or so AFTER the murders Bence has a women come into the shop, gossip about Lizzie being the suspect and left.
Bence contacts the police
Police drag him to Lizzie's house where he identified her as Miss Borden who was in his shop the day before asking about poison.

EVEN Knowlton was confused as he muddled the time/day Lizzie came in (Wed morning) with the time/day the gossipy lady came in (Thur evening).
Those saying that the only reason Bence identified Lizzie as the women was because the police "pressured him to" are incorrect. He states that he knew her for years as "miss Borden" and recognized her immediately. He didn't put 2 and 2 together right away because he didn't know her as Andrew's daughter. This makes the allegation that she was in the shop Wed. morning MUCH more solid. Bence wasn't pressured into identifying someone who he only saw once, but someone he knew fairly well.

[Reasonwhy]

Possum, all of the testimony you are posting helps a great deal; thanks!

[PossumPie]

Dr. Bowen further denied his inquest testimony that Lizzie was going DOWN the street (south) and insisted in trial that she was coming UP the street (North).

(Partial quote)

To avoid confusion, I did a search of the term downstreet on this forum. 34 results popped up.
“Downstreet,” at least then, apparently meant traveling north, toward Fall River’s downtown. “Upstreet,” or up the street, meant traveling south (as one would in going to D.R. Smith’s, the drugstore where Bence was employed).

This becomes important in understanding Dr. Bowen’s inquest and trial testimony about where he saw Lizzie.
At the Inquest, he says he sees her going up the street (south); D.R. Smith’s was south of the Borden house.
At trial, he says he sees her going down the street (north); Alice Russell’s house was north of the Borden house.

This upstreet/downstreet usage seemed so counterintuitive to me when I first started to research the case.

Thank you for correcting that I corrected my original post to reflect your clarification. I really mis-typed the north/south/up/down and don't want to confuse an already confusing testimony.
In the volumes of testimony from inquests, witnesses, trial, etc. there is so much contradiction and/or misunderstanding. We see people deny that they said something previously and don't know if they misremembered, are lying, or just muddled.

[Reasonwhy]

Yes, and when they do lie, they create that confusion intentionally. I wish we could have heard and seen these people, to better judge their truthfulness.

[Steve88778]

When I first read Victoria Lincoln's book - she did mention that downstreet is the same as downtown. She is from Fall River and said that's how they said downtown. I have never heard of anybody going upstreet - and nobody is eager to go up town. Unless you want to go home.

[Steve88778]

Screen Shot 2021-10-01 at 8.50.05 AM.png

Looks like back in the day they actually used these dangerous and deadly poisons.
So my question is - why did drug stores have this available to Doctors - because so far I am reading that this stuff kills people almost instantly.
Source: The New York Herald 8/23/1842

[camgarsky4]

Steve -- I agree....really weird that prussic acid was available even with a prescription!

Possum -- great testimony find....I've been focused on Bence's witness and prelim statements and haven't read his inquest testimony in a really long time. That is good stuff.

I think we are nailing it on the prussic acid.

[camgarsky4]

Next on the poison trail.....do we think Abby and Andrew were poisoned on Tuesday or had food poisoning.

I'll toss out my unvetted theory to get us jump started.

It was not food poisoning and was the initial attempt to either kill the Bordens or get them sick so they couldn't go to the Swansea farm where they would be more difficult to murder. Wednesday morning when Lizzie realized the poisoning attempt had failed, she shifted back to trying to acquire prussic acid again (like she did in New Bedford).
So my half baked idea is that she used an insufficient dose of arsenic to kill on Tuesday. She acquired the arsenic when she chose to hop over to Marion the prior Monday while she was visiting the Poole's in New Bedford. With nefarious intent, she went into Dr. Handy's cottage to use the water closet and took that opportunity to find a potion that would do the trick and found the arsenic. I've googled a bit on the topic and it is not unreasonable that a doctor in 1890 would have arsenic in their goody bag of medicinal tricks. (looking for Possum insights on this one!!).

Clearly I have much work to do on this rough and raw theory.

Jump in as you will on your thoughts about the Tuesday poisoning! Intentional or accident?



O

[Reasonwhy]

Screen Shot 2021-10-01 at 8.50.05 AM.pngLooks like back in the day they actually used these dangerous and deadly poisons.
So my question is - why did drug stores have this available to Doctors - because so far I am reading that this stuff kills people almost instantly.
Source: The New York Herald 8/23/1842

My favorite, though, is the perfume ad you found. O, sweet smell of death. Yikes

[Steve88778]

I hope to find new and more interesting articles on Prussic Acid. When I do I will post them - They might be Lizzie related or they might spark up some thoughts about why such a deadly poison was availavle even with an Rx. as pointed out by George.

[Kat]

This search took me part of today and looks like you all have gone on ahead, but here's almost all I could find from testimony as to where Lizzie was Wednesday...

One sentence from Lizzie “I was not at home when he came” can mean she doesn’t know when Morse came. She doesn’t say Wednesday. But that one sentence does sound damning or confused or just really saying what she could to distance herself from him, as she did the whole time, which always seems so suspicious, considering their bedrooms were so close. But also,Bridget says he didn't come until 1:30 or 2 pm

One other thing for a timeline- I recall she mentions coming down to “tea” on Wednesday but I can’t find it- and anyone know when tea would be?


Lizzie
Inquest

Q. When did he come to the house the last time before your father and mother were killed?
A. He stayed there all night Wednesday night.
Q. My question is when he came there.
A. I don't know; I was not at home when he came; I was out.
Q. When did you first see him there?
A. I did not see him at all.
Q. How did you know he was there?
A. I heard his voice.
Q. You did not see him Wednesday evening?
A. I did not; I was out Wednesday evening.
Q. You did not see him Thursday morning?
A. I did not; he was out when I came down stairs.
Q. When was the first time you saw him?
A. Thursday noon.
Q. You had never seen him before that?
A. No sir.
Q. Where were you Wednesday evening?
A. I spent the evening with Miss Russell.
Q. As near as you can remember, when did you return?
A. About nine o'clock at night.
Q. The family had then retired?
A. I don't know whether they had or not. I went right to my room; I don't remember.

55 (12)


.................
Q. When was it that you heard the voice of Mr. Morse?
A. I heard him down there about supper time---no, it was earlier than that. I heard him down there somewhere about three o'clock, I think. I was in my room Wednesday, not feeling well, all day.
Q. Did you eat supper at home Wednesday night?
A. I was at home; I did not eat any supper, because I did not feel able to eat supper; I had been sick.
Q. You did not come down to supper?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you hear him eating supper?
A. No sir. I did not know whether he was there or not.
Q. You heard him in the afternoon?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you hear him go away?
A. I did not.
Q. You did not go down to see him?
A. No sir.
Q. Was you in bed?
A. No sir, I was on the lounge.
Q. Why did you not go down?
A. I did not care to go down, and I was not feeling well, and kept my room all day.
______________________________
Phebe Bowen
Prelim
Q. Were you in the house Wednesday at all?
A. I was there Wednesday night soon after six o’clock.
Q. Did you see Lizzie at all Wednesday?
A. I saw her go down the street just before I went in there.
Q. You saw Lizzie go down the street just before you went in there, and that was sometime after six o’clock?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you have any talk with Mrs. Borden about their being sick?
A. I did, I asked her how they were feeling. She said she was feeling better. Mr. Borden said he was not feeling very well. I says “I suppose Lizzie is better, for I saw her going out.” Mrs. Borden says “yes, she has not been out all day, but she has gone now to see Alice Russell.”
Q. That was after you had seen Lizzie go down street yourself?
A. Yes Sir, which was soon after I had eaten my supper; we have supper at six o’clock.
______________________
[Dr Bowen says he saw Mrs Borden, Wednesday, before his breakfast, ate between 7 am and 8 am, then went over to the Bordens]

Dr Bowen Inquest
When I went in, I saw Lizzie run up stairs. Mrs. Borden I did not see, because I had seen her before.
Q. Did you see Lizzie that morning?
A. She was just going up stairs as I went in the front door; I thought it was her, I am not quite sure.
Q. It was somebody you thought was Lizzie?
A. Yes Sir, somebody I supposed was Lizzie, I did not see her face.
Q. And did not talk to her?
A. No Sir.
Q. You did not see them again to speak to them before they were killed?
A. No, I did not see any of them to speak to them, I dont think, I am very certain I did not
_____________________________
Dr Bowen
Prelim
Q. You went over to the house after breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You were not called?
A. I went of my own accord.
Q. From the symptoms she had described, you felt somewhat alarmed?
A. Yes Sir, so many of them; not because they sent for me.
Q. When you got there, who did you see?
A. I think that Bridget Sullivan let me in at the front door; I am not certain, I think so. I am very sure that Miss Sullivan let me in.
Q. Who did you see?
A. I saw Mr. Borden.
Q. You talked with him?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How did he appear to be?
A. He was lying down then. As I went in, of course he sat up on the sofa.
Q. Did you see Lizzie then?
A. I did not. I saw someone going up stairs, I do not know whether it was Bridget or Lizzie or Mrs. Borden, I did not see the face, I saw the form.
Q. Did you see Lizzie at all that day?
A. I think not.
Q. Out of doors, or in?
A. I do not remember as I did. I know my wife said she was going up the street, or going down street towards night, that was Miss Lizzie.
Q. You did not see her during the day at all?
A. No Sir. I remember that, because my wife accounted for Mr. Borden being out, and Lizzie being out, and I suppose they were all right.
Q. That is the last time that you know of that you saw Mr. or Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You did not call upon them afterwards?
A. No Sir.
Q. That call was voluntary?
A. Yes Sir.
________________________

Bridget
Prelim
Q. She stayed there all the time. Do you know when Mr. Morse came?
A. He came there a Wednesday.

Q. When did you first see him?
A. I think it was, about, pretty near two o'clock, or half past one.

Q. In the afternoon?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. You got him some dinner?
A. Mrs. Borden waited on him, and got him some dinner.

Q. When did you see Mr. Morse again?
A. I saw him going out in the afternoon.
____________________
Bridget
Trial
Q. On the day before, on Wednesday, did you see Miss Lizzie Borden at any time
during the day?
A. Yes, sir, she was down to her breakfast and down to her dinner.

Q. Did you see her between those times?
A. I don't remember. I know she was down before the dinner was put on the table Wednesday.

...................
Q. You said that Wednesday morning, I think, that you let Dr. Bowen in?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Whom did he come to see; somebody that was ill?
A. Yes, sir; he came there to see Mr. Borden, I suppose.

Q. Well, was Miss Lizzie complaining?
A. She said that morning that she was sick.

Q. You say that she was down at breakfast time that morning?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And about during the forenoon?
A. She was down before the dinner was served on the table.

Q. Well, she was down at breakfast time too, I think you said?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Sat down with them?
A. Yes, sir.

Page 264

Q. And you don't know, of course, how much she ate? You don't know about that?
A. No, sir; I do not.
....................
Q. Did you tell us what time (I think you did not) they had dinner the day before?
A. Wednesday?

Q. Yes.
A. Twelve o'clock.

....................

Q. Did you learn that Mrs. and Mrs. Borden were ill?
A. They told me that morning.

Q. You did not hear any one of the three?
A. No, sir, I did not.

Q. Miss Lizzie was about the house that forenoon not doing anything in particular?
A. I saw her around the house before dinner. I saw her down in the kitchen at breakfast time and

Page 293

before dinner was served on the table.

Q. That is the day you said she had on the light blue wrapper?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she have that on when she came down in the morning?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And kept it on during the forenoon and had it at the dinner table?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that day you remember it very clearly?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the dinner was at 12 o'clock?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you remember seeing her about that same day again, later in the day, Wednesday?
A. No, sir, I don't remember.

Q. Don't quite remember whether you saw her in the afternoon or not?
A. No, sir, I did not see her.

.................

Q. Between the breakfast hour on the Wednesday and the time you saw Miss Lizzie Borden at dinner, did you see her anywhere?
A. Between breakfast and dinner?

Q. Yes.
A. I don't remember of seeing her any more.

Q. Where she was in the mean time you don't know?
A. No, sir, I don't.

[Reasonwhy]

____________________________
Phebe Bowen
Prelim
Q. Did you see Lizzie at all Wednesday?
A. I saw her go down the street just before I went in there.
Q. You saw Lizzie go down the street just before you went in there, and that was sometime after six o’clock?
A. Yes Sir.
_____________________________
Dr Bowen
Prelim
Q. Did you see Lizzie at all that day?
A. I think not.
Q. Out of doors, or in?
A. I do not remember as I did. I know my wife said she was going up the street, or going down street towards night, that was Miss Lizzie.
Q. You did not see her during the day at all?
A. No Sir. I remember that, because my wife accounted for Mr. Borden being out, and Lizzie being out, and I suppose they were all right.

____________________

—partial post

Okay, so here is Dr. Bowen at the Preliminary Hearing saying he did not see Lizzie outside on Wednesday, at all, after saying at the Inquest that he did, going upstreet, and then at the trial that he did, going downstreet. Maybe he was just a fool. Sheesh, Bowen!
He can’t even get his wife’s account straight.

Thanks for posting that Preliminary testimony, Kat; it inspired me to order my own copy today.

[Kat]

What I found most interesting is how many testimonies there are and I was careful to not just post what fit a theory. I was able to look up everything - except that darn reference to coming down for tea Wednesday.

The other most interesting thing is that Bridget says what Lizzie wore in the morning, she also wore later in the day.

The Preliminary Hearing is my most favorite document (besides Lizzie's Inquest testimony) because it is closer to the time of the murders, and it's what I think of as a more "casual" proceeding.

[PossumPie]

Kat,
from the Preliminary Hearing, Lizzie Testimony:
Q. Were you at tea Wednesday night?
A. I went down, but I think, I don’t know, whether I had any tea or
not.
Q. Did you sit down with the family?
A. I think I did, but I am not sure.
Q. Was Mr. Morse there?
A. No sir, I did not see him.
Q. Who were there to tea?
A. Nobody.
Q. The family were there, I suppose?
A. Yes, sir; I mean nobody but the family.

(tea time was/is traditionally between 3PM-5PM owing to the tradition of eating a late supper. No indication when the Borden's took tea.

[Kat]

Thank you! I was having trouble scrolling my documents and losing my place - it was a nightmare!
Well, we know when Lizzie left to go to see Alice, so tea must have been prior to that.
I do think her time is pretty much accounted for, but that just satisfies me- not necessarily anyone else. I just thought, well here's all the Bence stuff, let's look at the situation from a different viewpoint- plus, to not-quite paraphrase Harrington- "I don't like that man!" [Bence]
Anyway, even if I would like to believe Lizzie did stay home that day, doesn't mean she didn't try to buy poison at sometime or other...

[PossumPie]

Thank you! I was having trouble scrolling my documents and losing my place - it was a nightmare!
Well, we know when Lizzie left to go to see Alice, so tea must have been prior to that.
I do think her time is pretty much accounted for, but that just satisfies me- not necessarily anyone else. I just thought, well here's all the Bence stuff, let's look at the situation from a different viewpoint- plus, to not-quite paraphrase Harrington- "I don't like that man!" [Bence]
Anyway, even if I would like to believe Lizzie did stay home that day, doesn't mean she didn't try to buy poison at sometime or other...

The Bence angle "feels" factual b/c three men witnessed a woman fitting Lizzie's description attempting to buy poison. Bence stated that he knew the woman as Miss Borden. When told that the Bordens were killed, these three men identified Lizzie. In a town full of Bordens, it could have been another Borden woman roughly fitting Lizzies description I guess, but it feels like a stretch.
The lack of witnesses seeing Lizzie leave the premises doesn't bother me as the household seems to be run more like a boarding house with people coming and going, briefly interacting or ignoring each other. Google maps shows a 12 minute round-trip walk to the pharmacy hardly a large period of time to be missed by anyone.
In my mind, I take the Bence statement, the almost child-like foreshadowing Lizzie does Wednesday night "Sometimes I think our milk might be poisoned." Abbey's own statement to the doctor Wednesday morning that she may have been poisoned, Lizzie repeating the day of the murder that her father had enemies and they thought they were trying to poison him. TOO much talk of poison to ignore.
Admittedly, there are other ways of getting poison than asking for it straight out! How about buying a can of Rat poison off the shelf? No prescription there. Today most rat poison is Warfarin (coumadin) the same anticoagulant used to prevent blood clots in the hospital. Large doses cause the rats to bleed out internally. But, that wasn't used in rat poison until the 1950s, so in Lizzie's day the rat poison was probably arsenic, the most common poison in the 1800s. Slow arsenic poisoning causes the person to slowly worsen and die over weeks and may not look suspicious while large dose arsenic poisoning causes acute symptoms of vomiting, diarrhea, skin color changes and muscle spasms. This is more suspicious looking. An autopsy would show the presence of arsenic even in the 1800s.
Lizzie seems so smart on other things, but walking into drug stores asking for poison seems stupid. Was she just over-confident?

[Reasonwhy]

Lizzie seems so smart on other things, but walking into drug stores asking for poison seems stupid. Was she just over-confident?

—partial post

There, I think, you have put your finger on it, Possum.

After the failure to procure the prussic acid in New Bedford, where she sees a possible advantage in anonymity, she turns to her hometown where she is known as a BORDEN. As a Borden, she will not be refused.

And she is personally overconfident: think of her in jail, certain she can break the egg. Recall her telling her woman friends that she will chop the wood for them. She warns Emma that she will not give in ‘one inch.’

I see this combination of overconfidence and entitlement in many of her inscrutable actions, foremost in the murders themselves. She feels entitled to remove obstacles in her way (her parents); she feels entitled to half of Andrew’s money and property. Her vague accounts of her actions on murder day shall be taken at face-value: who is anyone to question the likes of her? She’s entitled to continue to live forever in Fall River; she’s entitled to maintain her silence post-acquittal. Lizzie feels she need never explain: she has a right to all.

[Steve88778]

The part I dont understand - given the volatile nature of this acid, even it's dilute form. That any slight mishandling of this will cause death instantly. This is known - well known and has been well documented for ages now.

Number One - Why is this drug available to anyone with a prescription ? What innocent use does the lay person have in keeping this on hand. I could understand if hypothetically, a minute amount was mixed in with other drugs as we see in my above article - that it was used as a perfume base. Which is just as crazy in and of itself. But that is something the lay person does not have the tools (measuring instruments etc....) to make their own medicine or other innocent use things, provided there is an "innocent" use for this stuff. That is why a person goes to school to become a druggist.

Number Two - If it is used as a medicine and a prescription is required then isn't a doctor supposed to administer the medication ? Again - due to the fact that this will cause instant death from a whiff - would it not be better if the regular person not know that it is even for sale ?

Number Three - And that last part - exactly what is 10 cents worth of PA anyway ??? - is it 4 pills ? is it a solution ? How does Lizzie know what 10 cents of this acid is in quantity. And did she want pills or a solution ?

That's why I really don't believe all of this whole Prussic Acid story. It's ridiculous to say to a customer that they will sell you a very deadly, and known to be a very deadly poison ONLY if a doctor writes YOU a Rx for it.

I am sure all of you have heard of the lady that was hired to go to drug stores and see if she could buy poisons and catch the druggist breaking the law , if you have never heard of this - zoom in and read on...

lizzie.jpg

SOURCE - The New York Sun - Aug. 15, 1892

And I would like to put in my opinion as the positive voice detection by Mr. Bence in Lizzies home - First it violated her right to unreasonable search and seizure. But other than that violation of her 4th Amendment right - How can you make a positive ID on sound waves - when the sound waves in a house - may differ from a store - with big glass windows and items on shelves.

[Reasonwhy]

To your questions, Steve88778, I would go back even further: How is it possible for anyone to safely mix it?

We know many/most medicine mixtures of that time were compounded by the pharmacists (druggists) themselves, in-house. How could such compounding safely take place in a storefront?

[Steve88778]

This stuff was in articles from the 1840's so they know that it is a hazard. I think they come in pills or a solution because HydroCyn is a dilution of PA and water I believe - still deadly as hell.

[PossumPie]

Back in the 1800s, many tonics and medicines were simply herbals found to have beneficial properties. The powerful heart drug Digoxin is simply the foxglove plant. Cherry-Laurel water (Prussic Acid/hydrogen cyanide) was used for asthma, coughs, indigestion and dyspepsia, and as a sedative narcotic but owing to its poisonous threshold being so low, it wasn't used in strong doses. Bence states that they only kept in in dilute form. It was also put on whaling harpoons in the 1800s, but this experiment was stopped quickly as too many sailors were dying from accidental poisoning. Try not to think of pharmacists/prescriptions in the 1800s the same way you do today- there was MUCH less that needed a prescription and often the prescriptions/store record was mainly to trace a killer if someone died of poisoning.

ELI BENCE TESTIMONY:
Prelim. Inquest

Q. What does it cost you an ounce?
A. It is not expensive. I have forgotten just what it does cost, I think somewhere around 25 or 30 cents an ounce.
Q. How much of a dose of prussic acid is fatal, do you know?
A. Yes Sir, I ought to. We dont keep prussic acid in its strength; we only keep the dilute, two per cent. One
drop of strong prussic acid has proved fatal; the dilution is as high as four drops. I have given that on prescription. We never put up four drops without first inquiring of the Doctor. I would not like to give anybody five drops.

American Practitioner Journal Oct. 1889:

One of the most dangerous incompatibilities
of drugs consists in a mixture of cherry-laurel
water with morphine. In such a combination
an insoluble cyanide of morphine is formed,
which is precipitated. If no attention be paid
to this effect, ? it may happen that the patient
takes with the last portions of the mixture a
toxic dose of morphine and hydrocyanic acid
The Amer. Practitioner and Neios, July 20, 1889,p. 50.)?The Practitioner, October, 1889.

Opiates made up 15 percent of all prescriptions dispensed in Boston in 1888, according to a survey of the city’s drug stores. “In 1890, opiates were sold in an unregulated medical marketplace,” wrote Caroline Jean Acker in her 2002 book, Creating the American Junkie: Addiction Research in the Classic Era of Narcotic Control.

[Steve88778]

I was reading back then a doctor was treating Pneumonia with 3 drops of PA nothing happened - then he doubled the dose to 6 drops - then guess what happened. Hint - it wasn't a good outcome.

[PossumPie]

I was reading back then a doctor was treating Pneumonia with 3 drops of PA nothing happened - then he doubled the dose to 6 drops - then guess what happened.

Being in the medical field, I enjoy "medical history" reading about what they did back in the old days. There was virtually no malpractice lawsuits, the meds were often used without really knowing long term effects or damage. People generally didn't take meds unless they were really sick, they used home remedies like honey and turpentine for a cough, or willow bark soaked in water for pain. Much of the herbal cures had some small positive effect so people used them. Using poisons as medications continues even today, Chemotherapy for cancer is nothing more than poisons that kill off fast-growing cells faster than slow growing ones. The trick is to poison the fast dividing cells without killing the person. That is why chemo side effects are hair loss, diarrhea, etc. that is because hair and intestinal lining are very fast dividing cells and are killed along with the cancer.

[camgarsky4]

Possum - wouldn't love you to time machine 100 years into the future and see how barbaric our current treatments seem then?

Dr. McCoy's (Star Trek) methods probably won't seem so silly then.

[Reasonwhy]

Possum, we really profit from your medical knowledge and willingness to explain in detail. Thank you!

[Reasonwhy]

Lizzie was still, after her futile efforts in New Bedford to buy prussic acid, trying once again in Fall River, on Wednesday morning. IF she had been involved in a conspiracy which resulted in the hatchetings 24 hours later, why bother with that last drugstore trip? That is, if someone(s) had already been set to hatchet, the drugstore trip is running a big risk for nothing.

If a conspiracy was only cooked up between her and her team between her return from D.R. Smith’s and sometime after she came home from Alice’s Thursday night, that doesn’t allow much time to switch to a new weapon and murderer.

And I don’t think Lizzie would have run the acid purchase risk if someone else was willing to do the hatchet jobs. This is logic to negate a conspiracy theory.

[Kat]

It's weird the way the newspapers handled the poison story. [paraphrasing here]:Half were OMG she tried to buy poison, she had deadly intent!
The other half seem to state well, she may have tried to buy poison in the past, but she didn't get any, and poison wasn't used because there was no evidence in the bodies, so who cares about poison?

Weird....

But if her "team" (I like that word) included Morse, we need to remember, and picture in our minds that they had bedrooms on the second floor in the front part of the house with no Emma around! Just yards from each other and they could have spent the whole night planning!

[Reasonwhy]

Yes, weird of the newspapers which didn’t see it as especially important, but legally incompetent of the judges at trial who excluded that evidence, a proper foundation for which was laid by Moody.

Your argument against mine is excellent!

But is Morse is one the “team players?” I doubt it. Sympathetic to Emma? Yes. Enough to participate in murder? He seems too practical and emotionally removed for that, to me. The killing could backfire on both nieces, and ruin his comfortable life, to boot. And he didn’t need money, if the sisters were offering that. And what of his friendship and kinship with Andrew? Besides, Morse seems to enjoy a joke too much to be an accomplice to murder.

[Kat]

I collected the Opening and Closing attorney statements made in court with the jury present. I think it's valuable to recognize that the jury did know about prussic acid in the case presented to them. I did not include any of the questions to the Drs about family complaints of sickness possibly due to poison:

OPENING STATEMENT FOR THE COMMONWEALTH

By William H. Moody, Esq.,

“...Upon Tuesday night, August 2nd, an illness occurred in the household. Mr. and Mrs. Borden were taken suddenly ill with a violent retching and vomiting sickness, and it is said to a less degree the prisoner herself was effected by this illness. Bridget Sullivan was not. Upon the Wednesday morning Mr. and Mrs. Borden rose feeling, of course, in the condition that people would be in after a night of that character, and Mrs. Borden consulted a physician

Page 52

with reference to her condition. Upon the noon of Wednesday, which you will keep in mind was the very day before these homicides, the prisoner went to a drug-store in Fall River, the situation of which will be pointed out to you, and there asked the clerk for ten cents worth of prussic acid for the purpose of cleaning a seal-skin cape. She was told that that was a poison which was not sold except on the prescription of a physician, and after some little talk went away. I think, gentlemen, you will be satisfied that there can be no question that the person who made this application for this deadly poison was the prisoner. There were three persons in the drug store, two of whom knew her by name and sight,---one of these too knew her as the daughter of Andrew J. Borden and the third recognized her at once as he saw her. “
................
Trial
994
Edward S. Wood

...Q. That stomach had not been opened?
A. That stomach had not been opened. It was in the same external condition as the stomach of Mrs. Borden. Both of those contents of the stomachs were immediately tested for prussic acid, because prussic acid, being a volatile acid, it is necessary to make an immediate test for it, as it would very shortly after its exposure to the air escape, and escape detection therefore. Therefore those were both tested for prussic acid, with a negative result. Afterwards they were analyzed in the regular way for the irritant poisons, with also a negative result.

Q. In other words you found no evidence ---
A. I found no evidence of poison of any kind.

_______________________________
Closing Argument For Defense
George Robinson
.....Now the Commonwealth came with the idea of putting these things before you, I say with good intention, but the Court says no, though your intention is good, it is not proper, and we will not complicate this thing. It will create a bias against the prisoner which may divert the course of justice and that shall not be introduced here, it has no right here, though you mean to be right. Now there is no proof at all, Gentlemen, about any dangerous weapon having been prepared on the 3rd of August. And to make it more specific, Mr. Moody said in his opening that they would prove that this young woman went out to buy a poison on August 3rd. You have not heard any such evidence; it is not proved, the Court did not allow it to be proved and it is not in the case. Now you will not go to the jury-room with the thought if it had been allowed, you would have considered that it was proved. But it was not allowed, no such evidence came before you, and I shall expect the District Attorney, man fashion, to get up and say so, and I think you will, and I shall be disappointed in him if he does not. He will tell you that upon that subject

Page 1634

and that the case is not touched at all. Then he said that they were going to show you that the defendant had contradicted herself under oath about these occurrences. Well, there is another question which went to the Court and the Court said: That is not proper in this case. You cannot show that. And so there is not anything of the kind. Now you are not going to sit back there and say, "Well, I rather think Mr. Knowlton and Mr. Moody would not have offered it unless there is something behind it." That is not the way to try cases. That is not the way you held this defendant in charge. You might just as well have got your verdict before you started and said guilty because she is here. You might as well say, we don't want to hear any evidence. You do not want to say that you do not care whether you hang her right or wrong,---give us somebody! Now the Court sits here to guard you and all of us against any such mistake. That will not do. The Court says: Here gentlemen, decide this case on the evidence given right here from the witness stand, and on nothing else. Why, it is not impossible that any one of twenty or even twelve men might not be brought up under a like charge. But when you stand there in the box ready to answer, and somebody says to you, "Oh, don't mind what they put in, about particular evidence, whether it is competent or incompetent," you say No, I want my rights. I am here under the protection of the law, and I call upon those twelve men, decent men under their oaths to stand by me and see that I am not wronged. So you will leave those things out, Gentlemen. No poison in this case, no

Page 1635

prussic acid no preparation of a weapon by this woman, no statement made by her under oath in this trial or anywhere that you know anything about or have any right to consider. I do not care what you have read.[/color]

[PossumPie]

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment...If Lizzie had been able to obtain poison on any of her purchase attempts and had succeeded in killing Mr. and Mrs. Borden, there would have still been an autopsy, it would have been ruled homicide, and Lizzie's trips to purchase poison would come to light. Talk about a smoking gun, was Lizzie that naive that she wouldn't know that it would come back on her? Even if she had purchased it in New Bedford, there was a risk that the purchase would be discovered.
So was she simply overconfident that nobody would suspect her or did she never attempt to buy poison?

The limited background that we have on Morse is that he was relatively wealthy, did a lot of buying/selling usually coming out on the winning end, stayed with relatives on his longer trips--perhaps to enjoy their company, but more likely because it was free room and board. He arrived at the Bordens late, left early, hardly a congenial visit. I don't see compelling evidence that he was especially close to Emma except that they wrote regularly (she WAS the daughter of his dead sister). Not a likely member of a murder conspiracy.