Another Uncle John question

[wall59]

Newbie here, so please be gentle. I have seen it mentioned several times in various sources, but how did Lizzie become aware that Uncle John was returning for dinner on the day of the murder?

[camgarsky4]

Wall -- welcome to the forum!!

Great opening question. The answer will be disappointing.....we don't know. We don't even know if she ever knew he was coming until after the fact.

Here is what we know:
Murder morning:
Around 8:45am, Andrew escorted Morse to the side door and as John exited, Andrew invited him to come back for dinner (lunch). Morse's memory is collaborated by Bridget, who was washing dishes at the kitchen sink and overheard Andrew's invitation.

Lizzie came down from her room to the kitchen relatively soon after Morse left the house.

Others jump in, but I believe that is all we know for certain.

My personal thoughts are that Lizzie intentionally waited for Morse to leave before she came downstairs. Based on the events of the day, I think very little that Lizzie did was random. That said, I do not think she heard Andrew because if Lizzie was keeping a visual tab on Morse leaving, she was looking out Emma's window and I don't think would have heard Andrew's invitation unless he yelled it, which I don't think he did. Morse would have been just a couple feet from Andrew and Andrew was feeling poorly. So I'm thinking he expressed the invitation in a 'low voice' manner.
Complete speculation, but my theory is that Lizzie learned John was coming to dinner (noon) from Andrew when they chatted in the dining room upon Andrews return from downtown. The timing would have around 10:45am or approximately an hour before John might show up for dinner.

Hope that helps.

[Kat]

Hi, wall59!
Actually, I was wondering the same thing. The impression left hereabouts was that this was a known fact. I was hoping someone would "look it up," as my dad would say.

[Kat]

BTW: I keep reminding myself that Morse and Lizzie pretty much shared a bedroom door Wednesday night, and Emma was gone, so I can't assume they never saw or spoke! Just because she distances herself from him makes me more suspicious that they may have colluded in the night!

[PossumPie]

I can find no testimony corroborating the idea that Lizzie was told about Morse's plans for Thursday. Wednesday afternoon Lizzie was annoyed by the voices downstairs and closed her door, so it's apparent that if the Bordens and Morse happened to discuss his Thursday plans she would have heard it.
INQUEST TESTIMONY MORSE:

[regarding Thursday morning]
Q. When you went away, who did you leave there?
A. In the sitting room, or somewhere else?
Q. In the house, so far as you know.
A. I suppose Lizzie was up stairs, I did not see her. I think Mrs.
Borden must be up there; she went into the front hall the last I saw of her at all.
Q. Mr. Borden?
A. When I came in, Mr. Borden came out through the kitchen into the back hall, and unhooked the door, and he hooked it, and the last
words I heard him say was “John, come back to dinner with us.”

The other possibility is that Thursday morning sometime she outright asked Abbey when Morse was returning. After all, Abbey would be dead in a few minutes and unable to mention it. It's not a stretch to believe that Lizzie knew Morse was expected back for lunch. Killing not knowing when Morse would return is no riskier than killing not knowing if Bridget would appear.

[camgarsky4]

SPECULATION:
If lizzie learned that Morse was coming back for dinner (noon) after she killed Abby AND her plan was to kill Andrew in the afternoon (suggested by her mentioning the fabric sale to Bridget, testimony below), then Morse coming home for dinner would force her to completely change the timing on Andrew. Lizzie would be concerned that when Morse arrived and Andrew was still alive, then they might very well talk late into the afternoon and the question of Abby's absence would become even more pronounced and a search for Abby might commence. So (in my opinion), it was the risk of Morse showing up at all and blowing up her post-dinner plans. Lizzie had to accelerate her timeline and kill Andrew with the first opportunity before Morse arrived....which he afforded her by lying on the sofa. It is not a stretch to think it was Lizzie's suggestion for Andrew to lie down.

Also pasted below is Bridget's prelim hearing testimony confirming what she overheard Lizzie & Andrew discussing upon his return. Note that she never mentions hearing Andrews voice and that Lizzie was talking softly. Her testimony does not negate or minimize the possibility of Andrew telling Lizzie about Morse joining for dinner and being surprised that Abby would not be around for the meal. Seems like that would be a big social no-no in that era. To me it seems unlikely that he wouldn't react in someway to Lizzie telling him about the note.
Obviously Lizzie didn't have a one-way conversation, so Andrew said something and I think mentioning Morse coming is very possible.

Why would Andrew be talking very softly? There are several pieces of testimony that strongly suggest that Andrew was feeling VERY poorly towards the end of his walk. Further down my post are interesting observations by James Mather and Mrs. Kelly that to me confirm that Andrew was not on his "A game".
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Bridget testimony regarding potentially shopping in the afternoon - Preliminary Hearing
Q. What did you do then when you finished washing the window?
A. I went out in the kitchen, and Miss Lizzie was talking to me a little while, not very long.
Q. What was she saying?
A. She asked was I going out that afternoon. I told her I did not know, I might, and I might not. I was not feeling very well. She said Mrs. Borden was going out, or gone out. I could not catch the two words she said; that somebody was sick. I asked her who was sick. She said she did not know, but she had a note that morning. “If you go out, be sure and lock the door, because I may be out.”
Q. Did she say anything else?
A. No Sir, not in the dining room.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I went out in the kitchen.
Q. She was then in the dining room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do then?
A. Hung up my cloth I had to wash with, and threw away the water, and went up stairs in my room.
Q. Where was Miss Lizzie?
A. She came out in the kitchen as I was starting to go up stairs.
Q. What for, if you saw?
A. She came out, and she told me there was a sale in Sargeants that afternoon of dress goods for eight cents a yard. I told her I would have one.
Q. Did she say anything else to you?
A. No Sir, that was all.
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Bridget testimony regarding Lizzie & Andrew talk around 10:45am. Preliminary Hearing.
Q. When she came down, what room did she come into from the front hall?
A. In the sitting room where I was; then she went into the dining room.
Q. That is where Mr. Borden was?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you hear her say anything to Mr. Borden?
A. I heard her ask him if he had any mail for her. I heard her telling her father very slowly that her mother got a note, that Mrs. Borden had a note that morning, and had gone out.
Q. You heard her telling that very slowly?
A. Yes Sir, to her father.
Q. Had got a note?
A. From some sick person. Of course the conversation was very low, I did not pay any attention to it; but I heard her telling her father that.
Q. What else did you hear her say to her father?
A. Not any more.
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James Mather Testimony describing watching Andrew leave Clegg's store and head home. Trial.
Q. What did he (Andrew) do then?
A. He (Andrew) went partly across the street.
Q. What did he do then?
A. He stopped and looked around again, and came straight back to the store again.

Rebello provides a good visual of this odd movement by Andrew on pg 566 in "Past & Present". Near #9 on his map. Andrew made this walk almost daily and didn't own any property across the street from Clegg's new store.
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Caroline Kelly testimony seeing Andrew in front of his home around 10:40am. Preliminary Hearing.
Q. When you came out of the house, where was Mr. Borden when you first saw him?
A. Coming around the corner of his house, farthest away from mine in front.
Q. Coming around from the north side of the house?
A. I do not know the points, from the side the back door is on.
Q. That would be the north side of the house. Second street runs north and south?
A. I believe it does.
Q. He was coming around that side of the house?
A. Yes Sir, the side the barn is on.
Q. You first saw him as he came around the corner?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. He went up on the steps?
A. Yes Sir, the front door steps.
Q. And came towards you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You were coming down the street, and he was coming in the opposite direction, towards his front door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where were you when he got upon the door step?
A. Just about opposite the steps on the sidewalk.
Q. Did you speak to him?
A. No Sir.
Q. Were you personally acquainted with him?
A. I always spoke to him.
Q. That morning, he did not speak to you, nor you to him?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you look to see what he did at the door?
A. Yes Sir. I looked up to speak to him, and he did not see me.
Q. He was back to you then, was he?
A. Yes Sir; I thought he was trying to open the door.

Pg 45 of Rebello, his diagram of the Borden home shows that it was 7 feet from the house to the street. Ms. Kelly first saw Andrew as he turned the NE corner of the house and she was parallel with the SE corner of the house. Despite Caroline being directly in his line of sight, Andrew did not notice her while he covered the 20 feet from the corner to the steps....all while she was approaching from the opposite direction. Again this signals me to absent-mindedness caused by feeling very poorly.
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[PossumPie]

Thanks Camgarsky4. I've said before that no matter who the killer was, the only way two people could be hacked to death in a house is if one is in the house alone with the killer for a period of time before the other arrives. There is simply no way anyone could risk whacking someone with a hatchet and not fearing that a grunt, thud, cry, etc. would be heard. Abbey was 200 lbs. a fall to the floor would have rattled the china downstairs. Father out on errands and Bridget out in the backyard is the perfect opportunity. If later Bridget went to pick up yard goods it would have left Lizzie alone to kill her father. That failed to happen but by luck Bridget decided to go upstairs to the third floor for enough time for Lizzie to kill her father. The "stranger" theory always bothered me because they would have no way of knowing who's in the house and where they were, even if the stranger had the nerve to hide upstairs and listen. Remember, there were no "get-away cars" If a stranger was caught in the act killing Abbey upstairs, they would have to push past whoever caught them, run out of the house with some amount of blood on them, with the witness crying "Stop, murderer!" run down/up Second street in broad daylight...no way to escape.
I also believe Lizzie suggested Mr. Borden lie down-she heard the noise Abbey made when she fell to the floor and this time Bridget was in the house and would hear the thud easily.

[camgarsky4]

Extract from Possums post above.....
"Father out on errands and Bridget out in the backyard is the perfect opportunity".

Agree.

SPECULATION:
Around 9am, I think that Lizzie assumed Bridget was going out to begin washing the windows, when in fact Bridget was going out to vomit. Lizzie acted as soon as Bridget went out to vomit, Andrew left moments later and Lizzie saw Abby heading up to or coming back down from her dressing room with the pillow shams. Lizzie knew Abby was heading back to the guest room and opportunity knocked....Lizzie answered.

Logic for shams being kept in Abby's dressing room is based on where Churchill and Bridget went to get spare sheets to cover Andrew's body.
Mrs. Churchill testimony on where they got the sheets to cover Andrew. Preliminary Hearing.
A. He (Dr. Bowen) asked for a sheet to cover Mr. Borden, and I (Churchill) went with Bridget up stairs to get the sheet.
Q. Up which flight was that?
A. The back stairs through Mrs. Borden’s room into a small bedroom or clothes room (Abby's dressing room).
Q. Then what?
A. Bridget got some sheets out of the drawer, and we went down and gave one to Dr. Bowen.

Logic for Andrew leaving promptly after Bridget went out to vomit. I believe that Andrew heard an odd noise as he exited the house, went down the east side stairs and glanced into backyard to see what was up and saw Bridget vomiting. He then pivoted and headed towards 2nd street.
Mrs. Churchill testimony seeing Andrew appearing to be looking into backyard as he left around 9am. Preliminary Hearing.
Q. Had you seen anything of Mr. Borden that morning?
A. Yes sir.
Q. When and where had you seen him?
A. I saw him out in the yard about nine o’clock, as he was going down street, somewhere about that time.
Q. What time did you say?
A. I should think about nine o’clock.
Q. Where did you see him first?
A. He stood at the east side of the back steps.
Q. That would be the side nearest the yard, the farthest from the street?
A. Yes sir.
Q. He stood on the steps?
A. No sir.
Q. Where?
A. On the ground, as if he was coming around the steps.
Q. Was he alone then?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You did not see him come out of the screen door?
A. No sir.
Q. Whether he had been in the yard or not, you could not say?
A. I do not know.
Q. What did he do then?
A. I don't know, I think he went down street.
Q. Did you see him go out of the yard?
A. I saw him heading towards the street; I did not look any longer.
Q. The last you saw of him he was headed towards the street?
A. Yes sir.
Q. When you first saw him, was he was standing still or walking?
A. I think standing at the steps.
Q. How near to the foot of the steps?
A. Close to it, as he came around.
Q. Where were you when you saw him?
A. In my kitchen.
Q. You saw him through the window?
A. Yes.

[PossumPie]

Not trying to get off of the Uncle Morse topic, but I want to make it very clear as we discuss Morse chance of coming back before Andrew was killed: Abbey absolutely was killed at least an hour before Andrew. Despite other posters insisting that they could have been killed at the same time, Abbey was COOLER to the touch along with the advanced blood clotting. The argument that it was hotter upstairs making blood clot faster can't be correct as it would also inhibit her body cooling. I say this so we know that the killer knew that Abbey was dead upstairs for a "significant amount of time" before Andrew got back home.
Dr. Dolan Medical Examiner testimony:

Q. What did you find in the nature of blood there, first on her?
A. Under her head, and pretty well down on her breast, she was
lying in a pool of clotted blood, quite dark, as if it had been there
sometime. It was not in the fluid condition that Mr. Borden’s was.
...
Q. From what you saw, and all you saw, did you form any opinion
as to how long she had been dead when you found her?
A. I could not say exactly how long she had been dead, but it was
my impression she was dead anywhere from an hour to an hour and
a half when I saw her. Her bodily warmth externally was not near as
marked as that of Mr. Borden.
Q. How soon after you saw Mr. Borden’s body did you see hers?
A. Within two or three minutes. I just saw Mr. Borden, and was told
Mrs. Borden was up stairs. I just glanced at him, and went up stairs,
and saw her, and came down, and continued my examination.

[camgarsky4]

Totally agree.

[Reasonwhy]

Newbie here, so please be gentle. I have seen it mentioned several times in various sources, but how did Lizzie become aware that Uncle John was returning for dinner on the day of the murder?

Hi wall59, and welcome! Please jump in anytime with your own speculations; fresh voices are stimulating to creative thought.

We really don’t know, as Camgarsky points out, when or even if Lizzie became aware of Andrew’s invitation to Morse to return for dinner. Camgarsky’s plausible theory that Andrew told Lizzie when he returned from downtown has no proof. Lizzie may have guessed on her own, and acted “just in case.” She may never even have suspected.

She may have changed her timing from afternoon to pre-dinner murder for other reasons. What other reasons?

1. Since Bridget felt ill, Lizzie may have feared Bridget would also lie down after dinner (as she had Thursday afternoon off), and for an unknowable period of time. She might go out and might not, again at any time. Therefore, Lizzie could not rule her out as a witness during the afternoon time frame.

2. If Lizzie hoped to steer suspicion that an intruder had murdered, she may have feared the appearance of an even longer interval between the crimes.

3. Her general ability to forecast or control other’s presences during the afternoon became less viable.

Wall59, what do you think?

[wall59]

My question was prompted from "the impression left hereabouts that this was a known fact" (Kat). Since "I can find no testimony corroborating the idea that Lizzie was told about Morse's plans for Thursday" (PossumPie) it seems logical to believe Lizzie had no knowledge of his return but the possibility cannot be ruled out completely. There was not a great deal of time to learn of his plans as John didn't receive the invitation until about 8:45, although Andrew's invite probably wasn't necessary.

If we assume Lizzie "did it" (and assume is the best we can do), it is difficult to accept that she did not have an accomplice at some point. In trying to determine a possible conspirator, her knowledge, or lack thereof, of Uncle John's return could prove significant when considering him as a possible accessory either before or after the fact. If he was at least aware of what was going to transpire, the time of his return has little significance as long as he can provide an alibi for his whereabouts after leaving the Borden residence. Not knowing when, or if, he was returning may have forced "Lizzie to accelerate her timeline and kill Andrew with the first opportunity before Morse arrived" (camgarsky4).

Either way, Bridget was still in the house which put a time limit (about 11:30) on everything. Unless Bridget was an accomplice. . .

[camgarsky4]

Wall -- welcome again....keep pushing and pondering!!
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Speculation:
Regarding Mr. Morse. If he was aware of the impending murders and was establishing an alibi by visiting the Emery's, why would he have headed back to the Borden's at 11:20 or for lunch at all?

If John was establishing an alibi and obviously couldn't know the exact time of the murders, I think he would have accepted the Emery's lunch invitation and/or headed back to South Dartmouth to extend out his alibi until the murders were reported. Otherwise, all his 'perfect' alibi setting would have been for naught.

That Morse was returning for lunch as invited to by Andrew, signals non-participation in the murders to me.
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Wall -- what has lead you to think that "it is difficult to accept that she did not have an accomplice at some point."?

[PossumPie]

My question was prompted from "the impression left hereabouts that this was a known fact" (Kat). Since "I can find no testimony corroborating the idea that Lizzie was told about Morse's plans for Thursday" (PossumPie) it seems logical to believe Lizzie had no knowledge of his return but the possibility cannot be ruled out completely. There was not a great deal of time to learn of his plans as John didn't receive the invitation until about 8:45, although Andrew's invite probably wasn't necessary.

If we assume Lizzie "did it" (and assume is the best we can do), it is difficult to accept that she did not have an accomplice at some point. In trying to determine a possible conspirator, her knowledge, or lack thereof, of Uncle John's return could prove significant when considering him as a possible accessory either before or after the fact. If he was at least aware of what was going to transpire, the time of his return has little significance as long as he can provide an alibi for his whereabouts after leaving the Borden residence. Not knowing when, or if, he was returning may have forced "Lizzie to accelerate her timeline and kill Andrew with the first opportunity before Morse arrived" (camgarsky4).

Either way, Bridget was still in the house which put a time limit (about 11:30) on everything. Unless Bridget was an accomplice. . .

Morse return time was known to himself, Bridget and Andrew (and possibly Lizzie).
Inquest BRIDGET:

Q. Did Mr. Borden go out when Mr. Morse did?
A. No Sir.
Q. He went to the door?
A. Yes Sir, with him.
Q. Did you hear him say anything to Mr. Morse?
A. I heard him ask him to come to dinner.

Lizzie may or may not have overheard what Morse testified to Andrew saying to him at the door
"the last words I heard him say was “John, come back to dinner with us.”
Fore-knowledge of the murders by Morse are baseless and there is no supporting evidence that Morse held any ill will to anyone in the family
Post-knowledge of the murders by Morse seems implausible as Morse was friendlier with Andrew (and maybe Emma) than he was with Lizzie. Why keep her secret?
Bridget as accomplice is unlikely, she had no motive, and she presented damning testimony with the "Lizzie laughed on the stairs" testimony. That suggested that while Bridget was letting Andrew in the front door, Lizzie was upstairs within feet of Abbey's body. Not the kind of thing you'd mention in court if your accomplice is on trial for murder...

One thing we often forget, Mr. Borden was home for a significant amount of time before he was killed. Bridget testified that she was still finishing up washing windows, then in and out of the kitchen, Andrew went up to his room, came down, sat in a chair by the window...Lizzie must have been going crazy with Bridget hanging around. Finally Lizzie approached Bridget and according to Bridget's testimony:

A. I went out in the kitchen, and Miss Lizzie was talking to me a
little while, not very long.
Q. What was she saying?
A. She asked was I going out that afternoon. I told her I did not
know, I might, and I might not. I was not feeling very well. She said
Mrs. Borden was going out, or gone out, I could not catch the two
words she said; that somebody was sick. I asked her who was sick.
She said she did not know, but she had a note that morning. “If you
go out, be sure and lock the door, because I may be out.”
Then Bridget testifies that she:

A. Hung up my cloth I had to wash with, and threw away the water,
and went up stairs in my room.
Q. Where was Miss Lizzie?
A. She came out in the kitchen, as I was starting to go up stairs.
Q. What for, if you saw?
A. She came out, and she told me there was a sale in Sargeants
that afternoon of dress goods for eight cents a yard. I told her I would
have one.

This seems like impatient conversation (Aren't you EVER going to go outside for a bit so I can finish this killing up?)
Bridget goes on to say:

Q. When you went up stairs, what time was it?
A. It might be four or five minutes to eleven.
Q. Why was you not at work getting your dinner at that time?
A. I thought I had time enough to start to get dinner at half past
eleven, with the dinner I had to get.
...Miss Lizzie called me.
Q. What time was that, as near as you can fix it?
A. I might be up stairs ten or fifteen minutes, as near as I can
think, after I went up stairs.

So about 15 minute window from Bridget going to the third floor and the time she heard Lizzie crying for her to come down Andrew was dead.

[wall59]

Bridget Sullivan Preliminary Hearing Testimony

Q. Why was you not at work getting your dinner at that time?
A. I thought I had time enough to start to get dinner at half past eleven, with the dinner I had to get.
Q. Was it your habit to go up stairs that way?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When?
A. When I got through with my work down stairs, if I had not anything else to do, I always went up stairs, before I started to get dinner, if I had time.

Bridget testified that is was common practice for her to retire upstairs before starting dinner which would have meant her presence downstairs at 11:30. Lizzie had earlier confirmed that Bridget was washing the windows that morning and Lizzie, undoubtedly, had a good idea how long the job would take. Lizzie needed Bridget downstairs before John showed up because if she walked in on Lizzie and John standing over Andrew's mutilated corpse their guilt would have been easily implied. John's arrival back at the house sometime after 11:30 would be perfect timing. Almost too perfect. Yet that's exactly what happened.

How Lizzie pulled off Andrew's murder and left no evidence in the 15 minute window PossumPie mentioned is anybody's guess. One of the reasons I find it difficult to accept the lone she-wolf theory.

[Reasonwhy]

Post-knowledge of the murders by Morse seems implausible as Morse was friendlier with Andrew (and maybe Emma) than he was with Lizzie. Why keep her secret?

A few reasons come to my mind, if Morse did figure it out afterwards, and I believe he did:

1. If he accused her, she might accuse him right back. We know that Lizzie and Emma did have their Pinkerton man investigate Morse’s background out West (flexing their muscle to give him notice of what they could do?).

2. To protect his sister’s child.

3. To preserve the family honor.

4. To prevent Lizzie (and Emma) from retaliating against him in other ways, such as impugning his reputation to business associates or other relatives.

5. To prevent himself from becoming the next murder victim!

6. To shield any associates of his who might have been involved in a possible summons to Abby to sign a farm(s) deed or will that Thursday.

[Reasonwhy]

wall59 said, in part:

“Lizzie needed Bridget downstairs before John showed up because if she walked in on Lizzie and John standing over Andrew's mutilated corpse their guilt would have been easily implied….”

I had not considered this before, wall, but it would make for at least an awkward explanation

[PossumPie]

How Lizzie pulled off Andrew's murder and left no evidence in the 15 minute window PossumPie mentioned is anybody's guess. One of the reasons I find it difficult to accept the lone she-wolf theory.

I posted a number of years ago about this. People think things take MUCH,MUCH longer than they really do.

Post by PossumPie: 9/6/2013
"...I think under pressure, with adrenaline going, we can move much quicker. My favorite NFL football team was playing last night, and I ran upstairs, completely undressed, turned on the shower, showered, washed my hair, applied conditioner, washed it out, dried off, put on new clothes, and came back downstairs in less than 4 1/2 min. Ok, laugh at me- but I did it. We tend to think things take way longer than they really do, especially under pressure." [Re: A question for those who think Lizzie was guilty... ]

[camgarsky4]

What are we thinking might have been John's role in the killings? Since he wasn't at the house to do the killing, was he an advisor to Lizzie? If so, why would Lizzie need his help?

[wall59]

Please forgive me for asking another Uncle John question.

At the Inquest Morse testified about a letter that Andrew had sent him dated July 25, 1892. Is anyone aware of an extant copy or transcript of this letter? Thanks

[camgarsky4]

We only know the contents as Morse described in testimony. Morse gave the letter to Knowlton and that is the last it was seen. John did ask for it back, so I suppose it was given back and that is why the letter is not included in the Knowlton Papers.

[Kat]

How Lizzie pulled off Andrew's murder and left no evidence in the 15 minute window PossumPie mentioned is anybody's guess. One of the reasons I find it difficult to accept the lone she-wolf theory.

I posted a number of years ago about this. People think things take MUCH,MUCH longer than they really do.

Post by PossumPie: 9/6/2013
"...I think under pressure, with adrenaline going, we can move much quicker. My favorite NFL football team was playing last night, and I ran upstairs, completely undressed, turned on the shower, showered, washed my hair, applied conditioner, washed it out, dried off, put on new clothes, and came back downstairs in less than 4 1/2 min. Ok, laugh at me- but I did it. We tend to think things take way longer than they really do, especially under pressure." [Re: A question for those who think Lizzie was guilty... ]

You leave me no choice but to suspiciously ask: so who did you kill and clean up after, PossumPie?

[PossumPie]

How Lizzie pulled off Andrew's murder and left no evidence in the 15 minute window PossumPie mentioned is anybody's guess. One of the reasons I find it difficult to accept the lone she-wolf theory.

I posted a number of years ago about this. People think things take MUCH,MUCH longer than they really do.

Post by PossumPie: 9/6/2013
"...I think under pressure, with adrenaline going, we can move much quicker. My favorite NFL football team was playing last night, and I ran upstairs, completely undressed, turned on the shower, showered, washed my hair, applied conditioner, washed it out, dried off, put on new clothes, and came back downstairs in less than 4 1/2 min. Ok, laugh at me- but I did it. We tend to think things take way longer than they really do, especially under pressure." [Re: A question for those who think Lizzie was guilty... ]

You leave me no choice but to suspiciously ask: so who did you kill and clean up after, PossumPie?

It WAS during one of my "obsessed with the Borden case" times so the whole 4 1/2 minutes I thought about washing Andrews blood off of myself and I believe I actually rolled up my dirty clothes after the shower and pretended to stick them under the floorboards. In life we tend to estimate time by how long we leisurely do something not considering that under pressure we can cut the time considerably!

I have a challenge to put forth: I encourage everyone reading this post to set their microwave/cell phone timer for 1 min. just 60 seconds. NOW, not running, but "hurrying" I challenge you to see how many rooms you can go into in your home. If you visit them all and the timer isn't off, keep "doing something" You will be amazed how long one minute is...and we are discussing a 15-20 minute window. I refute anyone who says 15 min. isn't enough time to clean up and hide evidence from either of these murders.

[wall59]

I don't believe anyone here said that it couldn't be done in 15 minutes.

[PossumPie]

I don't believe anyone here said that it couldn't be done in 15 minutes.

Fair enough. We do seem to have a majority of "Lizzie did it" people posting currently. But in the past, we have had debates over that very issue. There is a common logic error called the argument of incredulity where someone says "I cannot imagine how X could possibly be true; therefore X must be false. "I can't imagine how Lizzie could have killed Andrew, got rid of the clothes and weapon, and cleaned up in 15 minutes therefore she is innocent."

Back to the Uncle John angle, Reading through all of the primary documents which I have, I find no plausible motive for his involvement either directly or as a co-conspirator. The testimony by Morse:

Q. On those visits did you come to the Bordens too?
A. Always stayed there; at one time nearly a year of the time.
Q. Have you kept up a correspondence with the Bordens?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. During the whole time?
A. That is, with his oldest daughter.
Q. Which one is that?
A. Emma.
Q. Never with any of the rest of them?
A. I used to have a letter occasionally from my brother in law.
Q. From Borden himself?
A. Yes Sir.

Morse, who's only tie with the family was his deceased sister and her two daughters, states that he was on friendly terms with them, visited, once for a year, kept in contact with Emma (not Lizzie) and was engaged enough with Andrew to discuss business matters regarding the farm and farmhands. Imagine an uncle visiting for a year! I'm glad to see relatives leave after 3 days! Fair to say Abbey and Andrew were gracious to allow him to stay. If they could live together in that house for a year and not kill each other, why return years later and kill Andrew and Abbey? He received no financial gain.

[wall59]

I apologize if my errors in logic offended anyone. Wall59 out.

[PossumPie]

I apologize if my errors in logic offended anyone. Wall59 out.

You misunderstand. I didn't mean that you made that logic error it is those who believe her innocent based on their disbelief that it could be done. Your posts are clever and great to read! Keep posting!

[mysterium]

HI Everyone! My first post. Slowly trying to read my way through the massive amount of information.

Thank you, wall59 for posting this. It addresses something, although seemingly trivial, that has always bothered me.

Bridget Sullivan Preliminary Hearing Testimony

Q. Why was you not at work getting your dinner at that time?
A. I thought I had time enough to start to get dinner at half past eleven, with the dinner I had to get.>

How does everyone interpret that? To me it is saying she already knew what she was to prepare for the noon meal. Bridget used the exact same wording in both testimonies.

Didn't Lizzie tell the police that Abby told her she was going to shop for the "dinner" while she was out and asked Lizzie if there was anything in particular that she was wanting? Does this mean that Bridget was saying that Abby had already spoken to her about what she wanted prepared for dinner before Lizzie said she had the discussion with Abby about what she wanted for dinner? I don't see another time that Abby and Bridget could have had that discussion after the alleged discussion with Lizzie.

[wall59]

Bridget Sullivan Trial Testimony

Q. I don’t think I made myself clear to you. You have told us that in the dining-room, after you had finished your dishes, that she gave you some directions about washing the windows?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that at that time she was dusting between the dining-room and sitting-room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now I ask you when next after that event did you see Mrs. Borden alive?
A. I didn’t see her any more until I found her dead upstairs.
Q. At that time did you see Miss Lizzie Borden anywhere?
A. No, sir.
Q. At the time you received this direction?
A. No, sir; I don’t remember to see her.
Q. Are you able to fix the time or about the time when you received this direction from Mrs. Borden the last time you saw her alive?
A. Well, I can’t exactly tell the time, but I think it was about nine o’clock.I

Bridget claimed she did not see Mrs. Borden from the time she received instructions about washing the windows until she found her dead. I don't know when Bridget was told about dinner plans. Anybody else?

[wall59]

Lizzie Inquest Testimony

Q. Did you know that Mr. Morse was coming to dinner?
A. No sir, I knew nothing about him.

The answer to my own question.

BTW, Welcome, mysterium.

[PossumPie]

We can't say for sure that Lizzie knew Morse would be home for lunch. Morse DID testify that he stood in the doorway and listened to Andrew offer the lunch invite. This could have been overheard by Lizzie upstairs.

Bridget wasn't worried about needing much time to prepare lunch, and given the Borden propensity for eating leftovers, perhaps Bridget knew she just had to fire up the stove and reheat Wednesday nights supper. The conflict arises as Mysterium points out:

Lizzie Inquest:
A. She told me she had had a note, somebody was sick, and said "I am going to get the dinner on
the way," and asked me what I wanted for dinner.
Q. Did you tell her?
A. Yes, I told her I did not want anything.

Lizzie testified that Abbey was bringing home something for lunch. Bridget went to lay down knowing that she didn't need much time to get lunch prepared. Bridget never received instructions from Abbey about lunch. Logic dictates that if Abbey were bringing home something for lunch she would have certainly communicated that to Bridget before leaving.

What bothers me is why Lizzie even added the lunch ingredients to Abbey's alleged activities. After all, If the note story is true, 1. Abbey went to see a sick friend, came home, never brought lunch ingredients with her, never told anyone she was home, went upstairs and was killed. OR 2. Abbey got the note, was going to go see a sick friend and bring home lunch, and was killed before she could leave which means there was a long period between Abbey and Andrew's murders, something the defense denied.

[Reasonwhy]

Bridget never received instructions from Abbey about lunch.

Hi, mysterium! To you, Possum and wall59, from page 212 in the Preliminary Hearing (page 26 of Bridget Sullivan’s testimony):

Q. Do you know what the dinner was that day?
A. Yes Sir, some soup to warm over, and some cold mutton.
Q. Potatoes?
A. No Sir; potatoes in the soup.
Q. Had you put the soup on when you went upstairs?
A. No Sir.
Q. You were coming down to do that about half past eleven?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Cold mutton, of course, did not require any cooking at all?
A. No Sir.

So, no specific mention of Abby instructing Bridget here, but that there was an agreement between them is implied. For example, this was the procedure for Thursday morning’s breakfast (from page 191 of the Prelim., page 5 of Bridget’s testimony):

Q. What did she do after she got down?
A. She asked me what I had for breakfast. I told her what I had. She told me what to get.

And, from the Trial testimony (page 208, or page 183 as on the lizzieandrewborden.com site):

Q. Now did you receive any directions about the breakfast from her?
A. Yes, sir.
———————————-
Q. Did you begin to make any preparations for the breakfast—-I mean by way of selecting the food for the breakfast,—-before or after you saw Mrs. Borden?
A. After she came down.
Q. After she came down and gave the directions?
A. Yes, sir.

It appears standard operating procedure was for Mrs. Borden to instruct Bridget on what to serve based on what Bridget told her she had. I do not think Abby would instruct Bridget in this way about Thursday’s dinner and then say she would get Lizzie her choice of meat, without telling Bridget. This is part of Lizzie’s “poppycock” to show how friendly she and Abby were that morning, in my view.

[camgarsky4]

Abby did give Bridget lunch instructions.......(preliminary hearing pg 57)
Q. What did you have for breakfast?
A. Was this Wednesday?
Q. No, Thursday morning.
A. Mrs. Borden came down directly, before I had anything under way; she asked me what did I have for breakfast. I told her. She said John was in the house. I says is that so? I says, did he sleep in the attic. She said no, he slept in the front chamber. I told her there was nothing, sure, but soup and cold mutton. She said she thought they would have that for dinner. She says there will be plenty for dinner too. She told me to warm it over, and make johnny cakes, and have coffee.
Q. You had the mutton stew or soup, of which you thought there would be enough for dinner?
A. Yes Sir.

[PossumPie]

Reasonwhy, thanks for finding that testimony. Maybe when I retire I'll compile all of the primary source testimony into one minute by minute volume with all instances of everyone's testimony in a chronological order.
So either way Breakfast and lunch on Thursday were known and planned ahead by Abbey and Bridget, and Abbey's procuring something on the way home from the sick friend was NOT part of the plan. In my thought, this is clear enough to say unequivocally that Lizzie at least lied about the contents of the note, if not the whole note itself.
No traces of a note, a sick friend, a messenger boy, or ingredients for lunch were ever found. Not one collaborating piece of evidence surrounding the note.

[camgarsky4]

Possum - you clearly know my opinion on the culprit and the note, but in the spirit of keeping an open mind, Bridget's had the meals conversation with Abby before breakfast (pre7:30am). It wasn't until 8:45 that Andrew invited Morse back for lunch. I view Andrews offer to Morse as a spontaneous invitation. Perhaps it was customary to dial up the menu for a visitor and Abby decided to get a better/fresher meat now that she knew Morse was joining them.

Food for thought or debate. :)

[PossumPie]

Possum - you clearly know my opinion on the culprit and the note, but in the spirit of keeping an open mind, Bridget's had the meals conversation with Abby before breakfast (pre7:30am). It wasn't until 8:45 that Andrew invited Morse back for lunch. I view Andrews offer to Morse as a spontaneous invitation. Perhaps it was customary to dial up the menu for a visitor and Abby decided to get a better/fresher meat now that she knew Morse was joining them.

Food for thought or debate. :)

Perhaps...But if Abbey left and came home without any food, why? It makes no sense to arrive back home with ingredients for a meal moments before the meal was to be put on the table. Therefore knowing Abbey had to walk to a sick friend, help out there, walk to the store, buy items for lunch, walk back home in time for preparation, she would have had to leave early enough to do all of that and be back by 11 to prepare what she bought.
Bridget testified:

A. I said, "Miss Lizzie, if I knew where Mrs. Whitehead's was I would go and see if
Mrs. Borden is there.” She said, "Maggie, I am almost positive I heard her coming in," she
said, "I am sure she is up stairs."
So Lizzie swears 1. Abbey got a note from a sick friend and told her she was going out and would bring back lunch. 2. Lizzie swears that she heard Abbey come back home. If this is all true, Abbey brought no food home for lunch and didn't announce her return to the household.

[camgarsky4]

Agree. The only plausible choice is that Abby never left. So the killings had to have been 1-2 hours apart just as the autopsy indicated.

Nice thread all! This is a very compelling argument supporting a lengthy amount of time between the killings.

Guestimated timeline:
8:30-8:45 Abby receives note asking her to visit sick friend
8:50-8:55 Abby tell Lizzie about the note and buying meat for lunch as Lizzie comes down for breakfast
9:00-9:30 Abby killed in the guest room before she can leave
9:00-10:45 Lizzie in the kitchen (according to Lizzie) Bridget outside or inside washing windows

[wall59]

I think we can all agree Lizzie told the truth once that day. She said to Bridget, " I am sure she is upstairs. "

[camgarsky4]

She was truly spot on with that one!

[Reasonwhy]

I think we can all agree Lizzie told the truth once that day. She said to Bridget, " I am sure she is upstairs. "

Good one, wall!

[Reasonwhy]

….It wasn't until 8:45 that Andrew invited Morse back for lunch. I view Andrews offer to Morse as a spontaneous invitation. Perhaps it was customary to dial up the menu for a visitor and Abby decided to get a better/fresher meat now that she knew Morse was joining them.

Food for thought or debate. :)

—partial post

Okay, I’ll bite.

If Abby did receive a note that was intended to summon her to meet Andrew to a certain bank at a certain time for a land or money transfer, I can see she and Andrew both being nervous about setting paranoid Lizzie off (how RIGHT they would have been, huh?). Hence, the pretext of saying the note was to a sick call.

A frightened Abby, in this scenario, could have tried to placate any suspicions on Lizzie’s part by throwing her a bone—ha!—about picking up Lizzie’s meat choice while out.
(Somewhere, Bridget mentions Abby and Lizzie contending on other days about which of the two will pick the meat—where, oh where?)

Though Lizzie said she did not want any, maybe Abbey still intended to shop for additional food because Morse would be there. I believe Abby would certainly still have alerted Bridget to the cooking change. But, perhaps Abby had been struck down before she had a chance to do so…

[camgarsky4]

Seems like every creative scenario we play out indicates that Abby was killed before she had a chance to leave the house.