Motive -- is there any question?

[Kat]

Forum post: by Kat » Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:05 pm
One of the main sources for Sarah and Lizzie's *tempers* or *personality faults* comes from Det. Batchelder's "Sanity Survey" of Borden friends, townsmen and relatives.
Sarah, tho in her own time, was friends with a suffragette- which may have had some menfolk not so enamoured of her personality.
This survey was commissioned just after the grand jury was seated.

Knowlton Papers
" #HK102
Report, handwritten in ink.

November 24, 1892

H. A. Knowlton
District Atty.
New Bedford, Mass.

Sir,
I have interviewed the following named persons in reference to the rel-
atives of Lizzie Borden who said as follows:

Capt. James C. Stafford North St. New Bedford.
I use to know quite well the mother of Lizzie Borden, her name was
Sarah Morse. She had a sister and brothers. john now in Fall River,
another brother who is a Blacksmith and is now out West. Mrs. Morse the
mother of Lizzie Bordon was a very peculiar woman. She had a Very bad
temper. She was very strong in her likes and dislikes. I never knew or
heard of any of the Morses or Bordons was ever Insane or anything like it.
I use to live in Fall River and always knew the Bordens and the Morses.
Mrs Gray who lives on this St. may tell you something aboute them, also a
Mrs Almy who lives on Franklin St, Fall River.

Mrs. - Holland Daughter of Mrs. Gray Resides on North St. New Bedford.
Same house with Mrs. Gray. I never heard my mother say that Lizzie
Bordon her mother or any of the Morses is or ever was Insane or anything
like it. I always have heard that they were somewhat peculiar and odd. I
have heard my mother talk considerable about Bordens and the Morses
but never heard her say that any of them were Insane.

Abraham G. Hart Cashier Savings bank Fall River. I have live here most
all my life. I never knew much aboute Lizzie Borden or her mother. I
never knew much about the brothers of Lizzie Bordens mother. Always
known of them. I never heard that any of the Morses or Bordens was ever
Insane.

S. H. Miller 93 Second St. Fall River opp. the Bordon House. I have lived
in Fall River 64 years. Bordon use to work for me. I know the Bordons
and all of the Morses. the father of Lizzies mother was Anthony Morse. I
use to know his two brothers. Know the brothers of Mrs. Morse, Lizzies
mother. One is now supposed to be out West. I never knew or never
heard that any of the Morses is or was Insane. Know they were somewhat
peculiar. Anthony Morse had two brothers George and Gardiner Morse.
I was not a witness at the trial. I did not intend to be. I saw Mr. Borden a
little while before the murder. Bridget, the Servant girl came running
into my house and said both was dead just then a man was passing I
called him and told Bridget to tell him what she told me. She did and
that man was a witness. I did not want anything to do with it and I did not
go near the house.

Rescom Case 199 Second St. Fall River. I have lived in Fall River 57 years
and I know all the Bordens and the Morses well. A sister of Mrs. Morse
(Lizzies mother, married his cousin, a man named Morse, they now live
here in Fall River. I use to know Anthony, father of Lizzies mother. He
has a brother now living in Warren Mass. the woman that was murdered
use to visit my house often, but she use to keep her affairs to herself pretty
well, but I assure you I have my opinion of Lizzie Borden and I hope they
will get more evidence. My wife dont know any more than I do aboute
the Bordons or Morses. We never heard that anyone of them is or ever
was Insane but I think some of them worse than Insane.

Nov. 26.
John S. Brayton Fall River. I have lived here great meny years. I know the
Morses Mother of Lizzie Borden was Sarah, her father was Anthony
Morse. I think her sister is dead. Anthony Morse was a farmer, after he
owned a milk route. I never heard of anyone of them as being Insane or
having any streak of Insanity.

D. S. Brigam Ex. City Marshal of Fall River I use to know the Morses
never heard of any of them as being Insane, but this girl Lizzie Borden is
known by a number of people here to be a woman of a bad disposition if
they tell what they know.

Geo. A. Patty, Fall River I did not know much aboute the history of the
Morses but never heard that any of them is or was ever Insane but Lizzie is
known to be ugly.

Mrs. Geo. W. Whitehead 45 4th St. Fall River Sister of Mrs. Borden who
was murdered never heard that any of the Morses was Insane but ugly.
Since the murder people have said if she is guilty she must be Insane.

Mrs. William Almy Franklin St. Fall River Always known the Bordens
and the Morses, but for several years I have not known much aboute any
of them. Some 30 years ago my husband who is now dead was in compa-
ny with Mr Bordon. I use to know the brother of Mrs. Morse (Lizzies
Mother) also her sister. I think their was 4 brothers. I have never heard
that their was ever any Insanity or anything like it among any of the
Morses.

Chester W. Green 80 years old lives in Fall River and have for 40 years. I
know the Bordens and the Morses but I dont know much aboute. Never
heard as any of them was ever Insane or anything like it.

William Carr lived in Fall River for 40 years I know the Bordons better
then I know the Morses. The Bordons are peculiar people but I never
heard that any of the Bordons or the Morses is or was ever Insane.
Respectfully,

Moulton Batchelder .
Dist. Police"

[PossumPie]

Thanks, Kat! Great synopsis of the known mental health of the Morse and Borden families. Funny, no known "insanity" but instances in both families of oddness/peculiarity. A mental illness is simply mental symptoms that interfere with a normal life. Many of us have obsessive-compulsive traits, I MUST check the stove and appliances before I leave the house, but I only do it once and it doesn't interfere with my life. A person with obsessive-compulsive disorder would need to do it many times, often leaving and turning around to come back and recheck. They would be late to appointments, and often not be able to leave the house. The interference with life is where the disorder lies.
Psychosis which is most commonly called insanity is having sensory hallucinations. Reality is completely untrusted as voices, visual hallucinations, or paranoid thoughts can't be differentiated from reality. Lizzie wasn't insane, and in disagreement with Lincoln, she didn't have some form of mental epilepsy. She taught Sunday school, did charitable work, toured Europe with friends. She may have been odd, strange, or hard to form a lasting relationship with, but wasn't insane. If Lizzie killed her family, she did so with rational, calculating thought, fully responsible for her actions. Her genetic makeup on both sides could have contributed to this lack of empathy though.

[camgarsky4]

To believe that money was the motive, context is necessary and helpful.

Perhaps we get an idea of Lizzie's perspective from testimony by Augusta Tripp. Lizzie stayed with Augusta's sister, Carrie Poole and her mother, for several days 1-2 weeks before the murders.

The questions are in reaction to Augusta's witness statements to Officer Medley.

Augusta Tripp Inquest testimony pg.144/51
Q. Did Lizzie say to you she did not know that either Emma or she would get anything in the event of her fathers death?
A. I did not hear her say so.
Q. Who told you so?
A. I think my invalid sister told me.
Q. What is her name?
A. Ms. Carrie Poole, she is very feeble, she lives on Madison St., New Bedford, she is very feeble indeed.

Background notes:
Carrie Poole died shortly after the trial of tuberculosis, we have no reason to believe that she was feeble minded.
August Tripp was a life long friend of Lizzie and might be inclined to soften how this recollection might be perceived by others.

Lizzie makes this comment to Ms. Poole just days before her parents are murdered and she/Emma become instant millionaires. I know this case has multiple bizarre consequences, but this one seems over the top. Lizzie discussing that her inheritance is at risk just days before Andrew died. This feels like a remarkably clear motive if one has the capacity to kill.

Morse and Charles Cook provide additional insights on Andrews thoughts on estate planning changes.

[PossumPie]

To believe that money was the motive, context is necessary and helpful.

Perhaps we get an idea of Lizzie's perspective from testimony by Augusta Tripp. Lizzie stayed with Augusta's sister, Carrie Poole and her mother, for several days 1-2 weeks before the murders.

The questions are in reaction to Augusta's witness statements to Officer Medley.

Augusta Tripp Inquest testimony pg.144/51
Q. Did Lizzie say to you she did not know that either Emma or she would get anything in the event of her fathers death?
A. I did not hear her say so.
Q. Who told you so?
A. I think my invalid sister told me.
Q. What is her name?
A. Ms. Carrie Poole, she is very feeble, she lives on Madison St., New Bedford, she is very feeble indeed.

Background notes:
Carrie Poole died shortly after the trial of tuberculosis, we have no reason to believe that she was feeble minded.
August Tripp was a life long friend of Lizzie and might be inclined to soften how this recollection might be perceived by others.

Lizzie makes this comment to Ms. Poole just days before her parents are murdered and she/Emma become instant millionaires. I know this case has multiple bizarre consequences, but this one seems over the top. Lizzie discussing that her inheritance is at risk just days before Andrew died. This feels like a remarkably clear motive if one has the capacity to kill.

Morse and Charles Cook provide additional insights on Andrews thoughts on estate planning changes.

Agreed.
Money is an abstract of freedom, better home, better servants, more clothes, better parties, freedom of expression, less fear of the future, and a better life. For someone to try to diminish her motive to dollars and cents fails to understand the ramifications. There truely is no need to hypothesize about incest or temporary insanity when the ramifications of money are understood.

[PossumPie]

Double post

[Reasonwhy]

To believe that money was the motive, context is necessary and helpful.

Perhaps we get an idea of Lizzie's perspective from testimony by Augusta Tripp. Lizzie stayed with Augusta's sister, Carrie Poole and her mother, for several days 1-2 weeks before the murders.

The questions are in reaction to Augusta's witness statements to Officer Medley.

Augusta Tripp Inquest testimony pg.144/51
Q. Did Lizzie say to you she did not know that either Emma or she would get anything in the event of her fathers death?
A. I did not hear her say so.
Q. Who told you so?
A. I think my invalid sister told me.
Q. What is her name?
A. Ms. Carrie Poole, she is very feeble, she lives on Madison St., New Bedford, she is very feeble indeed.

Background notes:
Carrie Poole died shortly after the trial of tuberculosis, we have no reason to believe that she was feeble minded.
August Tripp was a life long friend of Lizzie and might be inclined to soften how this recollection might be perceived by others.

Lizzie makes this comment to Ms. Poole just days before her parents are murdered and she/Emma become instant millionaires. I know this case has multiple bizarre consequences, but this one seems over the top. Lizzie discussing that her inheritance is at risk just days before Andrew died. This feels like a remarkably clear motive if one has the capacity to kill….”

—partial post, Camgarsky4

Couple of thoughts, Camgarsky. From the testimony of Augusta Tripp, copied below, the timing of Carrie’s re-telling of Lizzie’s comments to Augusta is unclear. We cannot know that Lizzie made these comments to Carrie during the most recent visit. As Augusta testifies: “Q. So all this was based on what was quite a while ago? A. O, yes sir.” She is not specifically referring to Carries’s comments there, true; but she does not mention timing when she does relay what Carrie told her. Here is the whole of the testimony:

Inquest
Mrs. Tripp
143+
Q. What can you tell us about the relations between Lizzie and her mother, so far as you observed it, and heard it from Lizzie?
A. All I can tell you is that I dont think that they were agreeable to each other.
Q. What made you think so?
A. I have seen them together very little. What should make me think so, would be--- if I were there, why, they did not sit down, perhaps, and talk with each other as a mother and daughter might. They were very quiet.
Q. That is, they were together so little that you observed the fact?
A. No, I dont think I should, they were around in the same room together, the dining room.
Q. They associated together so little you noticed the fact they did not associate together?
A. I noticed it; not that they kept away from each other, not that at all, but that they did not enter into conversation, perhaps, with each other, perhaps.
Q. Was that so with Lizzie as well as Emma, or with one daughter more than the other?
A. I think Lizzie talked with her mother more than Emma.
Q. Emma had less to say to her?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What else did you notice that led you to think that Lizzie and the mother did not get along well together, or were not agreeable to each other, as you expressed it?
A. I dont know of anything, I cant recollect anything.
Q. What you noticed was their manner towards each other?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is all, not from any words?
A. Their manner to each other was not that of those persons that are agreeable to each other, or it did not seem to be.
Q. When was it that you have seen them together?
A. I could not tell you surely; it is as much as five years since I have seen Mrs. Borden at all.
Q. So all this was based on what was quite a while ago?
A. O, yes sir.
Q. The officer reports that you told him that Lizzie told you at some time, that she thought her step mother was deceitful, one thing to her face and another behind her back.
A. Did he say I said Lizzie told me so?
Q. Yes.
A. I did not think I told him so. It seemed to me so; it seemed to me that she did not like one way appearing to her face, you know deceitful, she could not bear deceitfulness, and she could not bear one thing to her face, and find out another thing to her back; she could not bear deceitfulness.
Q. Was that what Lizzie told you?
A. I could not say she told me that, that was the idea I got from what--- well, I dont know as I could say from being there, or from being with Lizzie perhaps, for I have been there very little.
Q. You also told the officer that Lizzie told you that her step mother claimed not to have any influence with the father, but Lizzie thought she did have an influence with him.
A. Yes, I think Lizzie thought she did.
Q. Did Lizzie tell you that her step mother claimed not to have any influence with him?
A. I dont remember any such talk.
Q. With relation to giving some property to the step mother?
A. Lizzie, from what I have heard her say, but I could not tell you the words, Lizzie said, but I gathered from what I heard her say, it was a long time before I heard her say it, that she thought her mother must have had an influence over her father, or he would not have made a present to her half sister. It was a long time ago, not expecting this to come up, I could not swear to one word Lizzie said.
Q. This was all prior to the last visit, nothing was said about this at the last visit?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did Lizzie say to you she did not know that either Emma or she would get anything in the event of her father’s death?
A. I did not hear her say so.
Q. Who told you she said so?
A. I think my invalid sister told me so.
Q. What is her name?
A. Miss Carrie M. Poole, she is very feeble, she lives on Madison street New Bedford, she is very feeble indeed.
Q. You never heard Lizzie say that?
A. No Sir, I never heard Lizzie say that.
Q. The officer says you said explicitly, Mrs. Tripp, that Lizzie told you that she thought her step mother was deceitful, one thing to her face, and another thing behind her back, not in so many words, but that was the substance of what she said.
A. I dont remember of her saying that.
Q. Do you remember of telling that to the officer?
A. I remember very well talking to him that I thought Lizzie thought her mother was deceitful, one thing to her face, and another to her back. I could not say Lizzie told me that, I cant say so. I was taken very much by surprise at seeing Officer Medley come in, and I tried to tell; but those things were years back, and thinking they never would come up, I cant recollect word for word things that occurred years ago. I cant say that Lizzie told me she thought so; but it would be from little things I might have heard her say that would cause me to think she could not bear deceitfulness, being such an honorable person as she was, square person.
Q. Did she appear to be fond of her step mother in her talk with you?
A. No, I dont think she was fond of her.
Q. Did she appear to be unfriendly towards her?
A. No Sir.

Second point, Camgarsky. In your post above, you say, ““Carrie Poole died shortly after the trial of tuberculosis, we have no reason to believe that she was feeble minded.” I had always thought the hand-written notation on Knowlton’s Witness List— “Miss Carrie Poole, mad” was meant to suggest Carrie was possibly unreliable due to mental illness. But look at what I found in our forum:

User InterestedReader
Re: Killing People
Report Quote
Post Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:40 pm

...In New Bedford, yes?

So Lizzie is with the Pooles at 20 Madison, so Purchase is just one block along. But today's 49 Purchase is way down at the end of the street.
According to Rebello she went shopping 'downtown' Saturday July the 23rd.

Emma and Lizzie arrived in New Bedford Thursday July the 21st - Lizzie stayed with the Pooles but Emma 'continued to Fairhaven.' I suppose that means Emma wasn't with Lizzie on the Saturday shop..?

If today's numbering is any indication, it's a long walk down Purchase:
(Please click to see it properly)
image.jpg
Incidentally, on that List of Witnesses (HK182), on the reverse side, is hand-written:
'Miss Carrie Poole, mad ' .
And no full stop after 'mad' as per an abbreviation. But must be short for 'Madison'!

[camgarsky4]

Eureka!!! I LOVE Jennings Journals....so much 'fill in the blank' info.

I just found on page 251 Jennings notes from interview with Mrs. Poole!! Comments on what Lizzie did every day she was there. I have never heard this info even referenced.

Possum -- so sorry you haven't gotten this book yet. Too much to type. But I would like your medical view of the following notation.

Jennings notation from Mrs. Poole interview:
"Friday she (Lizzie) did not go out filled dr's c (compound) for me daughter (Carrie) was sick."

I'm sort of hoping you can tell us what that means? Did lizzie go a pharmacy to get prescriptions for Carrie?

So that Possum can join the pleasure of digesting this info, I'll type all the content for this interview later this afternoon.

Reason -- in response to your question on the likely timing of Carrie's recollection to Augusta. Per the notations on page 251 of Jennings.

Per the notations on page 251 of Jenning
"She had not been here to visit before for about 2 yrs"

I can only imagine that Augusta is quoting Carrie from when the Poole's and Lizzie visited Augusta in Westport on the 26th.

[Reasonwhy]

“…Money is an abstract of freedom, better home, better servants, more clothes, better parties, freedom of expression, less fear of the future, and a better life. For someone to try to diminish her motive to dollars and cents fails to understand the ramifications. There truely is no need to hypothesize about incest or temporary insanity when the ramifications of money are understood…”
[/quote]
—partial post, PossumPie

Your comments about money are succinct and perceptive to me, PossumPie. Yet I don’t agree that means we should shut the door on thinking about the possible role “incest or temporary insanity” may have played. I don’t personally hold a belief in the incest theory because I don’t see any concrete evidence for it. But the article Swinell posted makes the point that direct evidence of this can be missing, yet incest still may have occurred. Many intelligent, knowledgeable posters think there may be something to this. Let folks consider it!

And certainly Lizzie’s mental state or condition, temporary or chronic, is a question ripe for consideration, as she herself makes reference to it in her comments to Alice.

As you say, money can stand for many things. But, with respect, it is over hasty to say there’s “no need” to consider other/additional possible motives.

[Reasonwhy]

From my post, above, and quoted from InterestedReader:

“…Incidentally, on that List of Witnesses (HK182), on the reverse side, is hand-written:
'Miss Carrie Poole, mad ' .
And no full stop after 'mad' as per an abbreviation. But must be short for 'Madison'!”

So, do others think “mad” in reference Carrie Poole may have been short for “Madison,” the street where she lived? As this notation was handwritten, on the back, this certainly seems possible to me…

[camgarsky4]

Reason -- I have no idea what the notation 'mad' is telling us. I don't think it is meant to signify "Madison St". I suspect that due to her serious ailment and medications, she was a difficult and frustrating person to interview and earned the insensitive label of 'mad'. I'm pretty sure that "PC" was not a concept in 1892. Knowlton viewed people thru the lens of how good a witness they might be.

We have no police statements or other mention of Carrie in Knowlton Papers. If you search "Carrie Poole" in this forum, you'll find her death certificate which notes cause and date (just days after trial).

Regardless of what the 'mad' meant, I don't think that while in a state of 'madness', Carrie visited her sister on the 26th and told Augusta a hallucination in which "Lizzie told her the inheritance was at risk." And then amazingly, 8-9 days later, both Borden's are murdered and Lizzie was in the house when it happened. And Lizzie inherited vast amounts of money.

[PossumPie]

Eureka!!! I LOVE Jennings Journals....so much 'fill in the blank' info.

I just found on page 251 Jennings notes from interview with Mrs. Poole!! Comments on what Lizzie did every day she was there. I have never heard this info even referenced.

Possum -- so sorry you haven't gotten this book yet. Too much to type. But I would like your medical view of the following notation.

Jennings notation from Mrs. Poole interview:
"Friday she (Lizzie) did not go out filled dr's c (compound) for me daughter (Carrie) was sick."

I'm sort of hoping you can tell us what that means? Did lizzie go a pharmacy to get prescriptions for Carrie?

So that Possum can join the pleasure of digesting this info, I'll type all the content for this interview later this afternoon.

Reason -- in response to your question on the likely timing of Carrie's recollection to Augusta. Per the notations on page 251 of Jennings.

Per the notations on page 251 of Jenning
"She had not been here to visit before for about 2 yrs"

I can only imagine that Augusta is quoting Carrie from when the Poole's and Lizzie visited Augusta in Westport on the 26th.

Wow, not much to work with but here is my take:
In the 19th century, often a doctor's prescription was for a "compound" you made yourself at home. Like a recipe. Lizzie standing in the kitchen, mixing a teaspoon of turpentine, a teaspoon of camphor, a tablespoon of sugar...

The book is wrapped in Christmas paper under our tree with my name on it...!

[camgarsky4]

Grabbing at straws, but could having access to Carrie's medicines ingredients give Lizzie ready access to arsenic (or such like) with zero evidence trail? Just asking.....

Maybe her helpfulness had an ulterior motive.

[PossumPie]

Grabbing at straws, but could having access to Carrie's medicines ingredients give Lizzie ready access to arsenic (or such like) with zero evidence trail? Just asking.....

Maybe her helpfulness had an ulterior motive.

Generally no. Homemade meds were usually of easy to find household items. Any med that needed an ingredient that had a small window between a "therapeutic dose" and a "lethal dose" like Prussic acid, arsenic, belladonna, etc. would be made by the pharmacist.

[Kat]

Thank you, you Reasonwhy, for taking the time to provide the context and timing of the comments made by and to Tripp and poor Carrie Poole. It does substantiate, tho, that the acrimony in the Borden home was of long-standing, and not improving.
I actually get a picture in my mind of the way Abbie was depicted in the Legend of Lizzie Borden movie! although Bordenites disparage that image, as a caricature (deceitful towards Emma and Lizzie and manipulative of Mr Borden).
Here is what the page looks like, so we don't dismiss it easily. I thought it was a good possibility...see verrry bottom...

[Kat]

Oh, BTW, pg 14 Rebello, says that "preacher" Curtis Piece met Lizzie at the Tripps, "about 10 years ago."

[camgarsky4]

Thank you, you Reasonwhy, for taking the time to provide the context and timing of the comments made by and to Tripp and poor Carrie Poole. It does substantiate, tho, that the acrimony in the Borden home was of long-standing, and not improving.
I actually get a picture in my mind of the way Abbie was depicted in the Legend of Lizzie Borden movie! although Bordenites disparage that image, as a caricature (deceitful towards Emma and Lizzie and manipulative of Mr Borden).
Here is what the page looks like, so we don't dismiss it easily. I thought it was a good possibility...see verrry bottom...

Kat -- I might have missed a post, but what clarification of the timing and context are you referencing? Does anyone think that Augusta is quoting Carrie from some point prior to the recent visit to Westport?

As a reminder, Mrs. Poole stated to Jennings (pg 251), "She (Lizzie) had not been here to visit before for about 2 yrs)."

[Kat]

It seems there is a dispute as to the timing of the circumstances that resulted in the remarks that were recorded and offered in testimony?
And just to be clear, I myself did not make anything bold red in my post, right?
I was about to say that when we "change a quote" it should be pointed out, but then I realized we shouldn't change a quote at all, other than to make it "partial"(due to some lengthy posts around here ), and then that of course should be pointed out.
There is also a question raised about "Carrie Poole- mad"- interesting question.

[Kat]

Couple of thoughts, Camgarsky. From the testimony of Augusta Tripp, copied below, the timing of Carrie’s re-telling of Lizzie’s comments to Augusta is unclear. We cannot know that Lizzie made these comments to Carrie during the most recent visit. As Augusta testifies: “Q. So all this was based on what was quite a while ago? A. O, yes sir.” She is not specifically referring to Carries’s comments there, true; but she does not mention timing when she does relay what Carrie told her. Here is the whole of the testimony:
Inquest
Mrs. Tripp
143+
....
Q. What else did you notice that led you to think that Lizzie and the mother did not get along well together, or were not agreeable to each other, as you expressed it?
A. I dont know of anything, I cant recollect anything.
Q. What you noticed was their manner towards each other?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is all, not from any words?
A. Their manner to each other was not that of those persons that are agreeable to each other, or it did not seem to be.
Q. When was it that you have seen them together?
A. I could not tell you surely; it is as much as five years since I have seen Mrs. Borden at all.
Q. So all this was based on what was quite a while ago?
A. O, yes sir.
Q. The officer reports that you told him that Lizzie told you at some time, that she thought her step mother was deceitful, one thing to her face and another behind her back.
A. Did he say I said Lizzie told me so?
Q. Yes.
A. I did not think I told him so. It seemed to me so; it seemed to me that she did not like one way appearing to her face, you know deceitful, she could not bear deceitfulness, and she could not bear one thing to her face, and find out another thing to her back; she could not bear deceitfulness.
Q. Was that what Lizzie told you?
A. I could not say she told me that, that was the idea I got from what--- well, I dont know as I could say from being there, or from being with Lizzie perhaps, for I have been there very little.
Q. You also told the officer that Lizzie told you that her step mother claimed not to have any influence with the father, but Lizzie thought she did have an influence with him.
A. Yes, I think Lizzie thought she did.
Q. Did Lizzie tell you that her step mother claimed not to have any influence with him?
A. I dont remember any such talk.
Q. With relation to giving some property to the step mother?
A. Lizzie, from what I have heard her say, but I could not tell you the words, Lizzie said, but I gathered from what I heard her say, it was a long time before I heard her say it, that she thought her mother must have had an influence over her father, or he would not have made a present to her half sister. It was a long time ago, not expecting this to come up, I could not swear to one word Lizzie said.
Q. This was all prior to the last visit, nothing was said about this at the last visit?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did Lizzie say to you she did not know that either Emma or she would get anything in the event of her father’s death?
A. I did not hear her say so.
Q. Who told you she said so?
A. I think my invalid sister told me so.
Q. What is her name?
A. Miss Carrie M. Poole, she is very feeble, she lives on Madison street New Bedford, she is very feeble indeed.
Q. You never heard Lizzie say that?
A. No Sir, I never heard Lizzie say that.
Q. The officer says you said explicitly, Mrs. Tripp, that Lizzie told you that she thought her step mother was deceitful, one thing to her face, and another thing behind her back, not in so many words, but that was the substance of what she said.
A. I dont remember of her saying that.
Q. Do you remember of telling that to the officer?
A. I remember very well talking to him that I thought Lizzie thought her mother was deceitful, one thing to her face, and another to her back. I could not say Lizzie told me that, I cant say so. I was taken very much by surprise at seeing Officer Medley come in, and I tried to tell; but those things were years back, and thinking they never would come up, I cant recollect word for word things that occurred years ago. I cant say that Lizzie told me she thought so; but it would be from little things I might have hard her say that would cause me to think she could not bear deceitfulness, being such an honorable person as she was, square person.
Q. Did she appear to be fond of her step mother in her talk with you?
A. No, I dont think she was fond of her.
Q. Did she appear to be unfriendly towards her?
A. No Sir.

---Partial and underlining in Testimony is mine-KK
---Bold is original to the poster Reasonwhy
---Reasonwhy states "the whole of the testimony" but I made it partial

Does this make sense yet? The info that came about under questioning originated in the "long ago" past. And in the meantime, Lizzie had not often visited and she had not visited Lizzie. From the context, it actually sounds like Lizzie venting closer to the time when Abbie got the gift of a share in the Fourth St property.
That's what I meant when I thanked Reasonwhy for the "context."

[camgarsky4]

I reread the witness statements and you both are correct, sounds like the "Carrie" quote was made likely prior to the July, 1892 visit.

[Reasonwhy]

Eureka!!!….I just found on page 251….
Jennings notation from Mrs. Poole interview:
"Friday she (Lizzie) did not go out filled dr's c (compound) for me daughter (Carrie) was sick."
….Did lizzie go a pharmacy to get prescriptions for Carrie?

—partial post, Camgarsky

That is exciting, Camgarsky! But you’re right, Jennings’ notes/Mrs Poole’s sentence seems contradictory: First she says Lizzie “did not go out,” then directly follow the words, “filled dr’s c[compound] for me daughter was sick.” The Jennings Journals 1892, p. 251.

We find on the same page, in the next paragraph, “….Sat afternoon….—told me about getting Franks’s pills….”

This may add weight to an interpretation that Lizzie did go to a pharmacy that previous day, to fill the doctor’s compound for the sick daughter, to get Frank’s pills—and perhaps to try to purchase prussic acid and/or to buy arsenic.

And who the heck is Frank??

How do others interpret these notes?

[PossumPie]

That is exciting, Camgarsky! But you’re right, Jennings’ notes/Mrs Poole’s sentence seems contradictory: First she says Lizzie “did not go out,” then directly follow the words, “filled dr’s c[compound] for me daughter was sick.” The Jennings Journals 1892, p. 251.

We find on the same page, in the next paragraph, “….Sat afternoon….—told me about getting Franks’s pills….”

This may add weight to an interpretation that Lizzie did go to a pharmacy that previous day, to fill the doctor’s compound for the sick daughter, to get Frank’s pills—and perhaps to try to purchase prussic acid and/or to buy arsenic.

And who the heck is Frank??

How do others interpret these notes?

From my post above:
In the 19th century, often a doctor's prescription was for a "compound" you made yourself at home. Like a recipe. Lizzie standing in the kitchen, mixing a teaspoon of turpentine, a teaspoon of camphor, a tablespoon of sugar...

If we read Mrs. Poole's statement without contradictions, we could say that Lizzie didn't go out that day, but stayed home and filled the prescription by mixing household items already present. We know from other statements that Lizzie was accompanied every time she went out except for an hour and a half trip to "get a pattern and yard goods". This would have been plenty of time to also attempt to get poison so regardless of if she went out to get Poole's daughter's script filled, she DID go out on the last day she was with them.