Food Poisoning?

[camgarsky4]

Kat, Possum, Reason, Steve 88778 and all others.....

We have spent a goodly amount of time on the prussic acid topic and feel like we have vetted it very thoroughly.

Next step on the poisoning trail is determining if we think the Borden's had a case of food poisoning or were actually poisoned on Tuesday evening, but lived to wake up Wednesday morning.

My current POV is that it was not a crazy coincidence and was an intentional component of the train of events that resulted in the Borden's deaths.

Two speculative thoughts on what might have been Lizzie's goal:
1) After coming up empty on previous attempts (ie. New Bedford) to purchase Prussic Acid, Lizzie tried to kill them using some lessor poison Tuesday afternoon and it failed. She joined her parents at breakfast Wednesday morning (which she didn't do often) to determine what their condition was and she saw that they clearly were going to be fine. Next step for Lizzie was the 10am visit to D.R. Smith's to get something more potent.

2) Lizzie knew she didn't have the means to kill them yet(Prussic Acid), but wanted to delay any chance that Andrew and Abby would go to the Swansea farm before she had a chance to take definitive action. If this was the goal, it was successful because they didn't go to the farm (Andrew couldn't even find the gumption to join Morse Wed p.m.). So she used something that she was confident would make them very ill.

[PossumPie]

Food poisoning was of course more prevalent in the 1800's than today. BUT, they took special care to gaurd against it. Salt Peter (Potassium Nitrate) and salt curing stopped much food poisoning. Yes, they didn't have refrigerators and freezers, but understand that humans lived without these for 50,000 years and food poisoning didn't wipe out the race. There were cases of botulism that killed the very young and very weak, and other pathogens, but it wasn't a regular occurrence. Looking at the evidence, it is impossible to say whether the illness the day before the murders was pathogenic (food borne) or poison. Abbey told the doctor that they had been poisoned, this adds weight to the "not usual" food borne pathogens. But isn't proof. With the lack of evidence, and the fact that it was summer, I'd give Lizzie the benefit of the doubt and say it was some food-borne-pathogen. That doesn't negate the fact that she seems to have been exploring poisons before the crime.

[camgarsky4]

I still lean with this being an intentional act. The timing of their illness is just too 'over the top' coincidental.

Especially when you take into consideration that Lizzie claimed to be very ill Tuesday night also (because of course, if it was food poisoning she would have eaten the same stuff).

Speculation:
Assuming Lizzie was the prussic acid shopper, then one must accept that she was miraculously well enough to take a stroll over to the pharmacy around 10am, communicate with no sign of illness, and then stroll back. She then joined the family for dinner and at 6pm felt good enough to walk to Alice's house to share all her visions of gloom and doom. Alice doesn't mention that Lizzie seemed under the weather. And then of course, walk back. Lastly, she got up raring to go Thursday morning. I think Lizzie was feeling fine all week. If she was fine, then Andrew & Abby were intentionally made ill....otherwise, why would Lizzie lie about being violently ill Tuesday night.

I see as a very reasonable sequence of events....Lizzie attempted to buy prussic acid in New Bedford, failed, and then, secured an easier to acquire toxin. She gave this lessor poison a chance on Tuesday, it failed and she threw caution to the wind and visited a pharmacy in Fall River to give Prussic Acid another go.

A final point is the fact that Bridget didn't get the food poisoning. Apparently Lizzie chose not to try to kill her twice that week.

[PossumPie]

I wish I could find collaborating evidence from someone else that Lizzie was also sick. I think it's certain that Andrew, Abbey, and Bridget were sick to the point of vomiting, but does anyone collaborate that Lizzie was also vomiting? Was she just saying she was sick?

[camgarsky4]

Bridget has no issues until Thursday morning and doesn’t mention feeling ill before then. Doesn’t food poisoning strike pretty quick? Would it have a multi day delay?

[PossumPie]

Food poisoning depends on the pathogen. It can strike from a few hours to 4 days after you eat the bad food.

[camgarsky4]

Same pathogen affects people differently?

[PossumPie]

Same pathogen affects people differently?

Great question! One's response to eating a pathogen in food depends on how much you ate and your own body's response. Staph. aureus (milk, cream, mayo, chicken salad etc.) 1-6hrs; Clostridium perfringens (meats) 8-14hrs. Not to get too gross, but most cases in the U.S. are fecal in origin such as E. Coli or Salmonella which can take 3 days to show symptoms. Salmonella symptoms are usually diarrhea, cramps, and fever so I don't think the Borden's had that. Also Norovirus-think cruise ship outbreaks where there is lots of shellfish. The "cruise from hell" where half the passengers are vomiting and diarrhea is usually caused by Norovirus. New England loves their shellfish so the Borden's food poison (if that is what it really was) could have been Norovirus.

Generally if a family all ate the bad potato salad at a picnic, they will all develop symptoms within an hour or so of each other. Violent diarrhea and vomiting. I think many of us have had the unfortunate case of this once during our lives. The reason most people can't point to the exact food that made them ill is because if it took 14 hours to become ill, you may have had 3 meals during that period and you may blame the latest meal when it was really the first.

Just pure speculation here but I doubt it was the mutton (even though we all laugh at Bridget testimony as to how long the mutton hung around the house). I believe that it would have been from some small meat or seafood that they ate some time Tuesday. If it were the mutton, they would have kept re-infecting themselves every time they ate it again.

[camgarsky4]

Below is both the examination and cross examination of Bridget at the Preliminary Hearing. These are the Q & A's related to the Wednesday morning illnesses. Note that Abby, Andrew and Lizzie all claimed to have been sick all night. However, Bridget only visually noticed signs of illness with Andrew & Abby. In both sets of testimonies, Bridget specifically said she "did not notice" signs of illness with Lizzie.

Bowen came over to the Borden's around 9am to check on them in reaction to Abby's earlier visit to Bowen's home. He talked to Andrew to see how he was feeling, but not Lizzie since she went upstairs when Bowen entered the house. Apparently Lizzie was not feeling bad enough to ask the doctor for some help.

Also, Lizzie was feeling pretty good to walk over to the pharmacy and then again visit Alice later in the day. Frankly, there is not any proof that Lizzie was sick or that the Borden's had food poisoning. On the contrary, we had indications that Lizzie was not feeling sick.

Considering the older Borden's were killed roughly 24 hours later and their daughter likely attempted to purchase poison hours during the interim, assuming they had food poisoning feels like the stretch vs. assuming their illness was directly related to the events that occurred within 24-30 hours of their illness.

Of course, the glitch in all this is that no poison was detected as part of the autopsy. Possum - are there poisons that would not leave clear signs 72 hours later?

Bridget Preliminary Hearing
Q. Had there been any sickness in the family before that Thursday that you know of?
A. Yes Sir, they were sick Wednesday.
Q. What time Wednesday did you first know of it?
A. In the morning, as they got down stairs.
Q. Who is “they”?
A. Mr. Borden came down first.
Q. When who got down stairs?
A. Mr. Borden came down first that morning.
Q. What was it about their being sick?
A. Mrs. Borden came down, and asked me if I heard they were sick all night. I said no. She said her and Mr. Borden were sick all night, taken with vomiting.
Q. That you heard Wednesday morning?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How did they appear to be Wednesday morning?
A. They looked pretty sick.
Q. Both of them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you hear Miss Lizzie say anything about being sick too?
A. Yes Sir.
(Mr. Adams) What did she say?
Q. What, if anything, did you hear Lizzie say?
A. No Sir, I heard her say she was sick all night too.
Q. How did she seem to be in the morning?
A. Well, I did not notice.

Bridget Preliminary Hearing (cross examination)
Q. Wednesday morning was the morning they came down stairs, and had all been sick?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You had the pork steak and something for breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And Lizzie complained of being sick?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Lizzie stayed in her room all that forenoon, did not she?
A. I suppose so; I did not see her until she came to dinner.
Q. You knew she was up stairs. They were all sick and ailing that day?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. She did not go out at all that day, did she, so far as you know?
A. Miss Lizzie? I did not see her.
Q. So far as you know she did not go out?
A. I could not say whether she went out or not.
Q. That Wednesday morning they came down and had all been sick during the night?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. They had breakfast, and they looked pretty badly, or rather Mr. and Mrs. Borden did?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And Lizzie complained?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. They ate a little breakfast, and Lizzie went back up stairs to her room?
A. I suppose so. She went out of my sight, I do not know where she went.

[PossumPie]

Camgarsky4, Prussic acid for one. It was only able to be detected back in the 1800s for maybe 24 hrs. Telling if someone was poisoned is a hit-or-miss thing, even today. It's like checking your teen for illegal drugs. Some are not screened for and others are out of the system in a short time. Marijuana is one of the longest drugs testable for even a month after one smoked it while Opiates (morphine, heroine) are undetectable in only 2-3 days. Given that there was some hint of poisoning, I'm sure the pathologist screened them for the most commonly used poisons such as belladonna, strychnine, arsenic, prussic acid, maybe foxglove. Some have telltale symptoms such as foaming at the mouth, paralysis, gasping for breath, delirium so could be ruled out based on lack of those symptoms in the Bordens. Many poisons are "anticholinergics" causing dry mouth, constipation, stuff we also didn't see in the Bordens. The most likely poison based on their symptoms and the general availability of it would be arsenic (not found in their systems) and Prussic Acid. Sometimes people scrapped flypaper or dissolved rat/mouse/insect poison in water to try to extract poison.

[camgarsky4]

This struck me as funny and potentially ironic....

Inheritance Powder
A macabre synonym for powdered arsenic, which is intermittently popular as an poison that induces slow mental deterioration and vague gastrointestinal symptoms in its victims, who may have been poisoned by next-of-kin eager to inherit—hence the name—the victim’s worldly possessions
Segen's Medical Dictionary. © 2012 Farlex, Inc. All rights reserved.

[Reasonwhy]

….In both sets of testimonies, Bridget specifically said she "did not notice" signs of illness with Lizzie….
Bowen came over to the Borden's around 9am to check on them in reaction to Abby's earlier visit to Bowen's home. He talked to Andrew to see how he was feeling, but not Lizzie since she went upstairs when Bowen entered the house. Apparently Lizzie was not feeling bad enough to ask the doctor for some help….

—partial post

Camgarsky, I share others’ opinion that Lizzie went upstairs before Bowen could see her because she was NOT ill, and she was afraid that with his doctor’s eyes, he would see that.

I agree with you that Lizzie poisoned Abby and Andrew, likely with arsenic, which was easily obtained and which fit the symptoms.

I agree with the rest of the case you make for this argument, also (and nice work laying that out!)—with one possible exception. That is, I’m not sure if Lizzie’s goal was to prevent them from going to Swansea—although that could be the reason. I’m more of the mind that she was really trying to kill them with the arson, because she lacked surety that she could buy prussic acid, the surer poison, after the druggists rebuffed her in New Bedford.

[camgarsky4]

I'm still stewing on what made the Borden's sick Tuesday night.

Dr. Wood Preliminary Testimony:
"I tested Mr. Borden's stomach also for Prussic Acid, with a negative result. There was no evidence of any irritant poison having been in the stomach at all, no irritation. There is no other ordinary poison which would prove fatal immediately; that was the only one I considered it necessary to test for, under the circumstances."

Until now, I had read this to mean that he tested and found no poisons.....period. But after reading more carefully, he is saying he tested only for Prussic Acid and just didn't see signs of stomach lining irritation which might indicate an irritant poison. That seems to leave an opening for something besides food poisoning to have sickened the Borden's Tuesday.

Possum -- would love your professional take on this.

Thanks!

[PossumPie]

I'm still stewing on what made the Borden's sick Tuesday night.

Dr. Wood Preliminary Testimony:
"I tested Mr. Borden's stomach also for Prussic Acid, with a negative result. There was no evidence of any irritant poison having been in the stomach at all, no irritation. There is no other ordinary poison which would prove fatal immediately; that was the only one I considered it necessary to test for, under the circumstances."

Until now, I had read this to mean that he tested and found no poisons.....period. But after reading more carefully, he is saying he tested only for Prussic Acid and just didn't see signs of stomach lining irritation which might indicate an irritant poison. That seems to leave an opening for something besides food poisoning to have sickened the Borden's Tuesday.

Possum -- would love your professional take on this.

Thanks!

I read that statement to mean he tested Andrew for prussic acid without finding any and by the visual inspection of the gastric mucosa, deduced that there was no irritant poison in his stomach either. Translation: No strong acid/alkali in the stomach ruled out "many" of the known poisons of the day, but they were not specifically tested for. Arsenic would have been detectable in those days, but wouldn't have been a stomach irritant poison. Irritant poisons such as adding Lye to the coffee would have been obvious to inspection of the stomach. Opioids such as high dose morphine or codeine would have caused nausea/vomiting but would NOT have irritated gastric mucosa. Did they test for opioids or just the Prussic acid?

Dr.Wood: "There is no other ordinary poison which would prove fatal immediately; that was the only one I considered it necessary to test for, under the circumstances."

He only considered poisons which were immediately fatal in his tests. This was a major mistake on his part. We KNOW a poison didn't kill Andrew, a hatchet did! We need to know whether the day before a poison was in his system. This would NOT have been an immediate-acting poison as they laid around sick all night. His logic and therefore his testing was flawed.

[Reasonwhy]

I thought I had read that arsenic disappears from the system (though still detectable in hair roots and fingernails if given over a period of time) before those three days would have been up, and would not manifest as irritated stomach lining?

[camgarsky4]

I think possum is telling us that arsenic is not an irritant poison and therefore can’t be ruled out as the source cause of Tuesday’s Illnesses. It was a major miss since part of the prosecution case was that the prussic acid buy attempt was part of the killings and signs of an even earlier poisoning attempt would have greatly strengthened their case and would have likely allowed bence testimony to have been allowed.

[PossumPie]

Arsenic testing in hair and nails is possible today but it wasn't possible back then. (There are MANY natural sources of arsenic that we ingest in small amounts every day) Arsenic could be tested in the 1800s by testing stomach contents, but after 24 hours passed since Wednesday, there probably wouldn't be any left in the digestive tract. It would have been preferable to test the vomitus (if any could be saved) from Wednesday as that would have given the most accurate poison detection.
As an aside, we ingest arsenic in many foods, the big debate currently is arsenic in rice. For cultures/people who eat large quantities of rice grown in countries with high air/water pollution, the levels of arsenic are relatively high. Still not enough to kill, but concerning none the less.

[Reasonwhy]

Thanks, Possum, for the research and explanation.