Noise at the backyard fence

[camgarsky4]

Sometime around 11-11:30 pm Wednesday night, August 3rd, the Chagnon womenfolk (step mother & daughter) heard noises they perceived as coming from their shared fence with the Borden home. The defense introduced this testimony to create the possibility of an intruder visiting the Borden home the night before the murders. To counter this viewpoint, Knowlton noted that the Chagnon's dog was out on the porch and didn't bark at anything. Knowlton also noted that a ice facility was nearby and possibly that could have been the source of the noise. Jennings does a decent job of negating that ice facility option.

Just as I believe 3 witnesses stating they saw Lizzie attempt to purchase Prussic Acid, I also believe these two witnesses who heard a noticeable and repeated noise coming from their backyard in the direction of the Borden property line on the night before the murders.

My guess is that the dog would have barked if a person had cut thru the pear orchard on their way to the Borden fence. Not so sure the dog would bark if they didn't smell or see a human and just heard a noise from the Borden back yard/fence. If this assumption is correct, that would suggest that the noise was created on the Borden side of the fence by someone who got to their location in the back of the Borden property without cutting thru the Chagnon's.

Perhaps the defense was introducing this information to match up with Lizzie's claim of seeing strangers darting around the house on a couple occasions. I also presume they might be suggesting this stranger hung around until morning and then snuck into the side door when Bridget was on the north side of the house to wash windows. That would imply the stranger successfully hid when Andrew visited the pear tree and Bridget vomited, but was close enough to realize that John & Andrew had left and Bridget was out of sight. Intruder had good fortune that when they entered the house to kill Abby, he didn't run into Lizzie, even though she claimed to be in the kitchen most of the morning.

Does anyone have a creative idea on what cause the noise the Chagnon's heard? I'm not coming up with anything. Simple explanation might be a racoon or possum (pun intended :)). But hard to believe the dog wouldn't have barked up a storm if a varmit.

On a different, but related note, would be interesting to know if the dog was outside the day of the murders.

Marienne and Martha Chagnon's preliminary trial testimony below.

MARIENNE CHAGNON
Q. Mrs. Chagnon has some difficulty in expressing herself. Where do you live?
A. 31 Third street.
Q. You live in the house that has been spoken of as in the rear of Mr. Borden's?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you at home the night before the murder?
A. Yes Sir, Wednesday night.
Q. Were you at home the day of the murder?
A. No Sir. We were going to Central Falls by the train nine minutes past eleven.
Q. So you were not there at the time of the murder?
A. I suppose not.
Q. You went away, and took that train to Central Falls?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Now the night before the murder, I want to know if you saw or heard anything of any person about the Borden fence?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Now won't you state what the circumstances were?
A. It was about between eleven and eleven and a half, and we were alone, Miss Martha, my daughter and I. She was playing the piano, and she told me "did you hear somebody?"
Q. She said something which attracted your attention?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you hear anything then?
A. Yes. She said "did you hear some noise"? I was near the door; I listened; I heard some noise myself in the yard back.
Q. What did it sound like? What did it appear to be?
A. It seemed to me it was like somebody jumping on the fence.
Q. That is what it sounded like to you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What fence was that?
A. I cannot tell you because we have not gone to see, because we were afraid to go.
Q. I do not ask you whose fence it was; but from what direction did it appear to come?
A. It came from the back of the house near the kitchen, in the west part, I suppose.
Q. Is there a fence there between your land and Mr. Borden's?
A. Yes, there is a fence.
Q. Is, or is not that the direction from which it appeared to come?
A. I do not understand.
Q. Was that the direction from which it appeared to come? Did the noise appear to come from the direction of that fence?
A. Yes Sir, about that.
Q. What did you do in consequence of this noise? What effect did it produce upon you and your daughter?
A. After, we forgot it. But I was to go into the cellar to look after something, and Martha did not want to come. She was too much afraid. I was obliged to go alone.
Q. It frightened you both?
A. Yes Sir, we were both frightened.
Q. It frightened you both so you did not want to go into the cellar afterwards?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were the windows of your room open, do you recollect?
A. Perhaps there was some, but I do not recollect it.
Q. You cannot tell?
A. No Sir.
Q. How distinctly, how clearly, could you hear the noise?
A. Very well, because the door between the dining room and the sitting room was open. I told Martha "dont be afraid, it is the dog." She says "no, the dog is there." She showed me the piazza.
Q. You tried to make her think it was the dog, and she said the dog was on the piazza there?
A. Yes.
Q. Did she point the dog out to you?
A. No, but she saw the dog there.
Q. She was nearer the window than you were?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The window opened right on the piazza?
A. Yes Sir, it is very low.
Q. A low window that went way down to the piazza?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Now Mrs. Chagnon, is there any piazza on the front of your house?
A. Perhaps you can call it so in speaking about the door, the door and the step. I do not speak very well.
Q. There is nothing but the jet over the door, a projection?
A. Perhaps you can call it a piazza.
Q. That only extends over the steps?
A. That is all.
Q. There is no piazza extending across the front of the house?
A. Not excepting the concrete walk.
Q. Miss Collett spoke something about a bench upon which she sat; where is that?
A. On the concrete.
Q. The piazza is on the south side of the house, is it not?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The settee is kept on the concrete in front of the house?
A. Yes.
Q. Could anybody sitting on that bench, on that concrete, see what was going on in the back of the yard?
A. There is more than a bench. There is one nearer the way than the other one. If she sat on the bench near the way, she could see anybody in the orchard, and on every side.
Q. Is not there a long porch comes out on the end of your house, that would cut off the view? Is there a porch which extends out southward from your house into the orchard? There is the street, here is the orchard; is there a porch, an extension which runs out on the west end of your house, and runs out south into the orchard?
A. That is the way, the public way.
Q. The street?
A. Yes Sir, and she was there.
Q. Right in front of the house?
A. Yes. She was walking there.
Q. When she was sitting on that bench in front of the house, could she see this fence back here, of Mr. Borden's?
A. No Sir. If she was here, she can.
Q. I know; but suppose she was on the bench in front of the house, could she?
A. No Sir. She could look in part of the orchard.
Q. Directly south?
A. Yes Sir, and that side.
Q. But she could not see up here to the fence?
A. She can if she sat here; she could see people passing there, but not in the back.
Q. Not in the back, but she could in front?
A. Yes. She could not see in the back.

CROSS-EXAMINATION
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) Was the dog there that night?
A. Yes.
Q. He was on the piazza?
A. Miss Chagnon told me, she told me so. She showed the dog; I have not seen him.
Q. You did not hear him go out there where the noise was?
A. No Sir.
Q. Your yard has Mrs. Churchill's yard behind and also Mr. Borden's, does it not?
A. Yes.
Q. Both yards were behind your house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Your lot is bigger than that other one, and takes in both?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What kind of a dog was it?
A. After eleven.
Q. What kind of dog was it?
A. I cannot tell you.
Q. A little or big dog?
A. A big dog.
Q. What they call a Newfoundland?
A. No. I want to tell you the name, but I fear to mix it.
Q. St. Bernard?
A. It is mixed. It is a good guardian. He is a little old and lazy now.
Q. He did not go for that noise on the fence? You did not hear him starting out for this man that scared you?
A. No Sir.

MARTHA CHAGNON
Q. (Mr. Jennings) What is your name?
A. Martha Chagnon.
Q. Do you live with your parents on Third street?
A. Yes Sir, 31 Third street.
Q. In the rear of the Borden house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Wont you tell us what took place in regard to this noise that you heard on the night before the murder.
A. It was about eleven o'clock, and I was playing on the piano, and all of a sudden I heard a noise, just like if somebody tried to jump over a fence. Then I did not go in the rear because I was afraid to go there. I just stayed in the sitting room and told Mrs. Chagnon that I heard some noise.
Q. Do you know where the dog was at that time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where was he?
A. On the piazza on the south east.
Q. On the east side of the room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where did this noise appear to come from, the east or the west?
A. The west side.
Q. Was that the back side of the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was there a fence on the back side of the house between your land and Mr. Borden's?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Whether it appeared to come from the direction of that fence?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was there more than one sound?
A. No. I heard the noise about five minutes.
Q. Then there was more than one sound?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You mean you only heard one time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you mean you continued to hear this noise as if a party was getting over the fence for about five minutes?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And it came from the direction you say of this Borden fence?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know of any other cause that could have occasioned such a noise as that?
A. No, I do not know.
Q. Did you have any horse in your barn?
A. No Sir. We used to have them, but not now.
Q. You did not that night?
A. No Sir.
Q. Now I want to ask you is there any piazza on the front of your house?
A. No Sir.
Q. What is there at the front of the house there?
A. It is a kind of a walk side of it.
Q. Your house is raised up above the street, is it not?
A. Yes Sir a little.
Q. Where the dirt was raised up, it has been concreted?
A. Yes, on the front side.
Q. Was there a chair and bench ot settee out there?
A. Benches and one chair.
Q. Is that where the people sat out there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was there any bench, to your knowledge, on the piazza on the south side?
A. No Sir.
Q. Could a person sitting on the front, there where that bench is usually kept, see the Borden fence from there?
A. Only the south side, the south west, a part of it, that is all.
Q. A large or small part?
A. A small part.
Q. All the rest of the fence would be hidden from them?
A. Yes Sir.

CROSS-EXAMINATION
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) Where that bench was, that was out in front of the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Not on any piazza at all?
A. No Sir.
Q. Out of doors?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did the bench rest on, the ground?
A. No Sir.
Q. What on, the walk?
A. Yes.
Q. Sitting on that bench, you could see the driveway, the end of it?
A. On Third street, yes.
Q. You could see on the front side of your lot from the driveway, clear up to Mr. Crowe's?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where were you sitting that night when you heard the noise?
A. Playing on the piano.
Q. Where was that?
A. In the sitting room on the south side of the house.
Q. How near the piazza is it, next behind the piazza?
A. Yes Sir, about four feet, probably.
Q. I mean the piazza where the dog was.
A. Yes.
Q. There is a window opens out on that piazza?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that open?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was the window open out into the yard?
A. No Sir.
Q. The windows were all shut?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You heard the noise through the shut windows?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You think it lasted about five minutes?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. He had a good deal of trouble getting over the fence?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you got a pretty good idea how much five minutes is?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How long have you been on the stand now?
A. I could not say.
Q. Have you been on the stand five minutes?
A. I cannot say.
Q. Give me some idea what the noise was, pounding or scraping?
A. Pounding.
Q. Kind of a pounding noise that lasted for five minutes?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You did not go to the door to see what the noise was?
A. No Sir.
Q. You did not know but what it was in the ice house, over there, where they were dumping ice?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did it sound like the way ice is handled, when they thump ice?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did it sound like horses any?
A. No Sir.
Q. Give me some idea what this noise sounded like, this pounding over there. Did you hear any scraping noise?
A. No Sir.
Q. Are you sure it was the night before?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You have never said it was the night before that?
A. No Sir.
Q. When did you tell anybody about it first?
A. Because I was at Providence, and I heard of it, about the murder, so I said I heard some noise the night before; that is all I said.
Q. Did your step mother go with you? That was your step mother, I suppose?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did she go with you?
A. To Providence, yes.
Q. When did you get back?
A. That same night, the 4th.
Q. What officer did you notify, do you remember?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did your father do it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What officer did he notify, what policeman?
A. I did not notify anybody.

RE-DIRECT
Q. (Mr. Jennings) Did you say this noise appeared to come from the rear of the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know where the ice house is?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Is the ice house in the rear of your house?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did it appear to come from the direction of the ice house?
A. No Sir, the back of the house.
Q. The back of your house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Which direction is this ice house from you?
A. I could not say. There is a barn and house between the ice house and my house.
Q. A barn and a house before you get to the ice house on Third street?
A. Yes, going up Third street.
Q. First there is your house, then your orchard to the south of your house, then the barn and house, and then the ice house is beyond that. I
understand you to say that the sound did not appear to come from the ice house at all? The sound did not appear to come from the ice house?
A. No Sir

[Steve88778]

The reason I don't think it was from the Fall River Ice Company located at #41 and #43 Third Street for 2 reasons. One - the ice company I would suspect makes the same / similar noises all the time maybe even at this time. And if it were a strange noise coming from the ice company to be heard by the Changon ladies, it would have to travel North through ☞ Mrs. Crapos property ☞ Crowes Masonry yard ☞ Pear Orchard ☞ and then through the walls / rooms to the ears of the Chagnon's.
The Chagnon ladies, if I remember correctly were too frightened to check the source of the noise.
Was the dog paying attention ?
If someone were to befriend the dog and know when certain sounds would be made maybe they could have pulled off a Shawshank Redemption type of escape.

[PossumPie]

I've never put much weight on the eyewitness testimonies of seeing shifty strangers or hearing ominous noises prior to the murders. We generally hear/see that type of thing all of the time and our brains filter it out. It's "post-hoc" (after the fact) speculation that it could have been the murderer skulking around the night before. It could have been kids out to steal some pears, a voyeur out to look in women's windows, a drunk who detoured into their yard to relieve himself...or a possum, racoon, dog, or cat looking for a meal. Depending on the dog, many won't raise alarm unless the noise is in their yard while others bark at everything.
If it were the murderer doing reconnaissance the night before, why raise such a racket? Anyone who could sneak into a home with 3 women present, kill one upstairs, hide for an-hour-and-a-half without being seen, sneak downstairs unseen, kill an old man, clean up and sneak out and away certainly could be quiet the night before in a yard...

[camgarsky4]

Below is the name and date of a forum thread that is chock full of visuals and ideas related to the Chagnon's and the noise. Kat provided a photo that shows how close to the Borden back fence the Chagnon home sat.

Thread
Dr. Chagnon's House
Post by Nadzieja » Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:34 am

[Kat]

Here's the link...I forgot I posted these
The model Shelley shows is a little confusing because it's a side view of the Churchill house, then beyond that is the Borden house and barn and behind that in the rear is the lot with the trees and then the Chagnon house next to the tree lot, more towards us, again.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4024&p=66898&hilit= ... use#p66898

[Kat]

The first pic is my drawing of the original photo at the FRHS, and the backyard view is from the Phillips newspaper article, enhanced by me.
Where the back stairs are in the drawing...enter that little fence gate and immediately to your left, and at the back, in the corner is the dog house.
you can click on pic.

[Kat]

As far as I know, I am the only one to have have been given permission by the author Len Rebello to post duplicate photos from his book as long as I give him the courtesy of the citation.
Third Street view: and thank you, Len
Plzcliconpic

[Kat]

There was also info on a sleeping drunk from Wednesday night in the vicinity, on Third St.
Here's a pic of the page/plzcliconpic

[Christian1]

imo
I believe the man who was sitting on the steps leading to the Tripp residence was William A Davis.

[camgarsky4]

I presume you are referencing Isaac’s son? What led you to that deduction? What are your thoughts on why he was sitting on the curb at 11pm?

[camgarsky4]

John V. Morse: Inquest Testimony
Q. What is your place of residence, Mr. Morse?
A. For the past year it has been South Dartmouth; my real home is in the west.
Q. Wherebouts in South Dartmouth?
A. William A. Davis
Q. What relation is Mr. Davis to you?
A. None. Years before I went West, I worked for them in the meat business. I have always kept up correspondence since. It seems like home to me, and I like to stay there. Isaac C. Davis, his son, is in the meat business with him. The old man cannot see now, has a cancer. I stay there with them.

I read John's testimony that the senior Davis was William and he was blind and had cancer. Perhaps you are meaning that it was Isaac that was on the stoop?

[Kat]

imo
I believe the man who was sitting on the steps leading to the Tripp residence was William A Davis.

Jeffery is that you?

[Steve88778]

I presume you are referencing Isaac’s son? What led you to that deduction? What are your thoughts on why he was sitting on the curb at 11pm?

Was he a butcher by trade ?

[camgarsky4]

Is this another rhetorical question? If not, you can google this forum and get your answer. Or read contemporary newspaper reports to find the answer.
Or possibly read Morse's testimony included above.

[Steve88778]

Not worth my time - just asking the group. Because I remember hearing something about a butcher and his son and Morse.

[Steve88778]

Actually sir , I am going to block contact with you as you are condescending. So you have fun on this site and don’t bother to participate in any more of my posts.

[Kat]

If it was Jeffery posting, then he has a full manuscript that he has spent years researching and his theory of the crimes does involve the Davis', so maybe he will respond with more of his ideas. It's complicated, but he's very sincere.

[Steve88778]

No is is not Jeffery - it is that condescending old crank that has to remark on my profile with his pompous negative thoughts.
He doesn't seem to be too bright to me, or is too polite but maybe that was the way he was raised. OK let him have fun on the site. I just dont want him to insert his worthless opinion on any of my replies again - even if they are wrong.

[Kat]

imo
I believe the man who was sitting on the steps leading to the Tripp residence was William A Davis.

Jeffery is that you?

Here I am quoting myself

[Kat]

If it was Jeffery posting, then he has a full manuscript that he has spent years researching and his theory of the crimes does involve the Davis', so maybe he will respond with more of his ideas. It's complicated, but he's very sincere.

And here I am quoting myself again.
New member named Jeff.