Why was Lizzie “Slow”?

[Reasonwhy]

Noting here some evidence that Lizzie moved/acted “slowly”: I have been doing some research about possible reasons for this, but would like to throw it out to others first to comment, if interested:

The Jennings Journals, soon to be published by The Fall River Historical Society, on its website:
“EXCERPT:
Mrs. Phebe Vincent (Miller) Bowen (1848-1907)
Entry recorded by Arthur S. Phillips:
Lizzie was slow & deliberate, her ironing hakfs (her nice ones) would have taken a long time.”

From the Inquest, Lizzie’s testimony (77/34):
Q. Taking all that, what is the amount of time you think you occupied in looking for that piece of lead which you did not find?
A. Well, I should think perhaps I was ten minutes.
Q. Looking over those old things?
A. Yes sir, on the bench.
Q. Now can you explain why you were ten minutes doing it?
A. No, only that I can’t do anything in a minute.

From Trial testimony of Hymon Lubinsky page 1408+:
Q. (By Mr. Jennings) What is your name?
A. Hymon Lubinsky.
….Q. When you went by the Borden house did you see anybody on the premises.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Whom did you see?
A. I saw a lady come out the way from the barn right to the stairs from the back of the house.
Q. Can you tell how she was dressed?
A. She had on a dark colored dress.
Q. Can you give the color of it?
A. I can't tell what kind of color it was.
Q. Did she have anything on her head?
A. No, sir.
Q. What was she doing?
A. She was walking.
Q. In which direction?
A. She was walking very slow.
Q. Toward the steps?
A. Toward the steps.
Q. Had you ever seen the servant who worked in that house?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had you ever delivered any ice cream to her?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long before this?
A. Oh, two or three weeks before the murder.
Q. Was the woman you saw the servant?
A. I saw the servant and the woman too.
Q. Was the woman you saw the day of the murder the same woman as the servant?
A. No, sir.
Q. Are you sure about that?
A. I am sure about it.
------------------------------

[wall59]

Bridget Sullivan, Preliminary Hearing

Q. What passed between them then?
A. I heard Miss Lizzie tell him about a note, that the mother had a note, and had gone out, very slowly. They were talking very slowly, and were talking to themselves.
Q. Why do you put in that expression, “very slowly”? Why do you use that expression, because she said it so?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Because she said that very much more slowly than anything else she said?
A. Well, no.
Q. She did not?
A. No Sir.
Q. Everything she said, she said very slowly?
A. Ordinarily slow.
Q. Do you mean I should understand when she spoke about the letter or note, that Mrs. Borden had got, she spoke more slowly than she did the rest of it?
A. No Sir, just the same.

[camgarsky4]

Reason, thanks for heads up
On forthcoming release of Jennings journals!

Kat or MB - any chance the release is pre-holiday?

[Reasonwhy]

Great testimony to include, wall59! I was going to, also, but…well, let me see if anyone has any comments to make, yet…can you draw any conclusions from these observations?

[wall59]

Your post triggered my memory to this portion of Bridget's testimony. It seem Bridget is stating that "slowly" was Lizzie's normal method of conversing. This is a very odd statement to make as not one other person that interacted with Lizzie made this claim. I have a few other ideas on the subject but I will defer to others for the present. Let me leave you with this little tidbit.

Researchers from Duke University conclude that these results suggest that, “A slow walk is a warning sign of brain decline decades before old age sets in.”

[Reasonwhy]

I look forward to reading your other ideas, too, wall!

[camgarsky4]

My take (up to now) is that Lizzie was being snarky with knowlton when she said “I can’t do anything in a minute” and she was composing her thoughts and catching her breath as she slowly walked to the back door.

No idea why Bridget called out Lizzie talking slowly if that was her norm.

Wall - would love to hear more on your research and thoughts on the ‘slow’ theme. Always willing to get my opinions changed!!

[Kat]

Personally, I have my birthday within a week of Lizzie, and I can do things slowly because I'm concentrating and focused. It's interesting that it has been noted in various remarks about, and by, Lizzie - a slowness.

However, when I was thinking (slowly ) about why would someone speak slowly to someone else, I would first think the person being spoken to was a little hard-of-hearing, which we have no evidence for...and the other (which we also have no evidence for) might be because someone was nearby, maybe hiding, and that person needed to hear the words accurately.

[Reasonwhy]

More of my thoughts on this thread: I appreciate all who responded when I first introduced it, and hope the topic may still be of interest. I find it so because it may help to explain Lizzie's motivation, if she was the killer. At the least, it could help us to understand a physical, and perhaps mental, condition of hers.
(One update: The Jennings Journals has been published since I began this thread; Mrs. Phebe Bowen's comments may be found therein, p. 33.)

Diagnosing Lizzie now is of course impossible, but Bridget and Lizzie herself testify in court as to this “slowness” of hers. Add to this Hyman Lubinsky’s testimony. Most recent confirmation comes from Mrs. Phebe Bowen in her comments to Jennings. Here we have concrete observation of a physical trait, sworn to by several individuals who observed Lizzie over the course of years, as well as from a casual observer, Lubinsky, and even from Lizzie herself. Thus, Lizzie’s slow movement, and possibly speech, appear to be factual.

I did some research into what may cause a person to move slowly or to speak slowly. I was intrigued by the causes mentioned, especially 1) severe depression and 2) schizophrenia. I was so interested because I read that depression--many symptoms of which Lizzie is quoted as showing in Parallel Lives--can also manifest as anger, and that schizophrenia--the subject of an article included among Jenning's notes inThe Jennings Journals--is the most common diagnosis given to parracide offenders (those who kill a parent).

I will give citations as I discuss the sources I found, in this and postings to come. To view the citations and read the entire articles, please click on the links provided. Only portions of each article are included. Omitted material is indicated by the use of ellipses. Bolding is mine.

To start with the most general take, here's Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychomotor_retardation

"Psychomotor retardation
Other names: Psychomotor impairment, motormental retardation, psychomotor slowing
Specialty: Psychiatry
Psychomotor retardation involves a slowing down of thought and a reduction of physical movements in an individual. Psychomotor retardation can cause a visible slowing of physical and emotional reactions, including speech and affect.[1]

Psychomotor retardation is most commonly seen in people with major depression and in the depressed phase of bipolar disorder;[2] it is also associated with the adverse effects of certain drugs, such as benzodiazepines....

Causes
Psychiatric disorders – schizophrenia, severe depression, bipolar disorder, etc.
Psychological disorders – eating disorders, mood disorders, anxiety disorders, etc.
Psychiatric medicines (if taken as prescribed or improperly, overdosed, or mixed with alcohol)
Parkinson's disease[4]

Examples of psychomotor retardation include the following:

Unaccountable difficulty in carrying out what are usually considered "automatic" or "mundane" self care tasks for healthy people (i.e., without depressive illness) such as taking a shower, dressing, self grooming, cooking, brushing one's teeth and exercising.
Physical difficulty performing activities which normally would require little thought or effort such as walking up a flight of stairs, getting out of bed, preparing meals and clearing dishes from the table, household chores...
Tasks requiring mobility suddenly (or gradually) may inexplicably seem to be "impossible." Activities such as shopping, getting groceries, caring for your daily needs and meeting the demands of employment or school are commonly affected.
Activities usually requiring little mental effort can become challenging. Balancing one's checkbook, making a shopping list or making decisions about mundane tasks (such as deciding what errands need to be done) are often difficult.
In schizophrenia, activity level may vary from psychomotor retardation to agitation; the patient will experience periods of listlessness and may be unresponsive, and at the next moment be active and energetic.[5]"

[Reasonwhy]

Continuing from my last post. To avoid confusion, I will precede my comments with "RW" for "Reasonwhy."

RW: Initially, I was hesitant to even consider that Lizzie could have been schizophrenic, as I have never read of her having reported hallucinations: "...Auditory hallucinations are among the most common symptoms in schizophrenia, affecting more than 70% of the patients..." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2525988/

RW: But this means 30% of schizophrenics are not affected by such hallucinations. So how is schizophrenia now classified?

"The DSM-5 helps mental health professionals diagnose schizophrenia by describing key symptoms.
They may diagnose schizophrenia if a person has at least two of the following symptoms for a significant amount of time (usually over 1 month):
delusions
hallucinations
disorganized speech
very disorganized or catatonic behavior
negative symptoms, such as reduced emotional expression"
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/192770

RW: These symptoms still seemed extreme to me when applied to Lizzie. So I read further in that same article, about schizophrenia spectrum (underlining and bolding mine):

"The DSM-5 lists schizophrenia alongside a number of other conditions, called schizophrenia spectrum and other psychotic disorders.
These include the following:
Schizotypal personality disorder: This involves discomfort in close relationships, disturbances in cognition or perceptions, and eccentric behavior.
Delusional disorder: This involves the person having delusions for 1 month but no other psychotic symptoms.
Brief psychotic disorder: This occurs when brief symptoms of psychosis last for longer than a day but less than a month.
Schizophreniform disorder: This occurs when symptoms of schizophrenia last for less than 6 months.
Schizoaffective disorder: This mainly involves symptoms of schizophrenia, but it also involves significant mood symptoms, such as mania or depression.
Substance- or medication-induced psychotic disorder: Psychotic symptoms can arise due to alcohol, cannabis, hallucinogen, or sedative use or from taking medications such as anesthetics, anticonvulsants, heart medications, chemotherapy drugs, or antidepressants.
Psychotic disorder due to another medical condition: This is most often due to untreated endocrine, metabolic, or autoimmune conditions or temporal lobe epilepsy.
The symptoms of schizophrenia may overlap with those of bipolar disorder, which is a condition that causes changes in mood, energy, activity, and behavior.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/192770

RW: It's certainly over my non-medically trained head to apply any of these conditions to Lizzie, but a few of them list symptoms which arguably did characterize her. My next post further discusses schizophrenia, in the context of the article Jennings included with his case notes, "A Modern Form of Insanity," in The Jennings Journals. Thanks for sticking with me here...

[Reasonwhy]

"A Modern Form of Insanity," by Henry Smith Williams, The North American Review, 1892,The Jennings Journals, Appendix B, pp. 347-55, is characterized by the book's editors as "an article cited by Jennings in his journal..." (The Jennings Journals, p. xiii) It is left to readers to interpret why Jennings may have included the article with his case notes.

The article deals with what it terms "a definite disease of the brain and mind. This disease is called Paranoia...the details vary, but the essential symptoms are the same,---the presence of systematized delusions of persecution." (JJ, p. 347-48) The author further defines: "I should consider no case entitled to rank as paranoia in which there did not appear at one time or another, (1) Delusions of persecution; (2) Hallucinations; (3) Delusions of grandeur...but the relative importance of these typical conditions may vary greatly in different cases." (JJ, p.351)

RW: Could it be that Jennings thought Lizzie might have suffered from this disease? And what might this disease be called in the modern era?

"People with mental illness may experience persecutory delusions. These delusions are most commonly associated with schizophrenia, but they also may appear during manic episodes of bipolar disorder or with severe depression with psychosis."
https://www.verywellmind.com/what-are-p ... 0delusions.

RW: So, the most common association with what The North American Review describes is schizophrenia.

The author, Williams, gives a few examples to illustrate cases. In one, a man named "Dougherty" believes an actress who loves him is prevented from seeing him by his enemies, "who persecute him in every way," and who include a doctor at the asylum where Dougherty is housed. Dougherty shoots the doctor, feeling justified. (JJ, p. 347) Williams describes sufferers as having an inherited an "unstable nervous system" characterized by "morbid sensitiveness and great egotism." He describes the child sufferer: "Pampered and praised, even though the entire household becomes subordinated to his sovereign will, he is not satisfied, believing he does not receive his dues." (JJ, p. 348)

RW: Could this description fit Lizzie, with Emma, her surrogate mother, spoiling Lizzie as a child, and letting her will reign? Perhaps the adults in the households, first at Ferry St. and later at Second St., did the same, over-compensating for the early loss of her mother? Did Lizzie thus come to feel entitled, and unsatisfied?

Williams goes on to describe what may happen as such a child ages into contact with the outer world:

"But if adverse circumstances arise...especially if the individual's vanity is wounded by failure to rise to the heights pictured by ambition, morbid brooding may develop out of vanity, selfishness, and suspicion, [into] the delusion of persecution." (JJ, P. 349)

RW: Lizzie gave up on the piano. She left school early. She had few childhood friends. She may have felt under-appreciated and begun to resent her stepmother and father as the cause of her lack of success. It was they who kept her in the shabby house and limited her social opportunities, she may have felt. As she reached adulthood, could she have realized her church work would not gain her entry into the social milieu of the "hill," and did her blame of Andrew and Abby increase? Further evidence of paranoia may be seen in her fear that Abby and Andrew were together conniving to whittle down her and Emma's inheritance to the degree they would be left with virtually nothing (even had they each been left with $25,000, a rumored figure, they would have survived handsomely). She does appear to believe her step-mother and father are her biggest persecutors.

Williams explains that in this disease of Paranoia, hallucinations will appear. Again, Lizzie never admitted to hallucinations, as far as I have read. Yet Williams writes "the hallucinations may for a long time be masked and difficult of detection..." (JJ, p. 350) He continues, addressing persecution, that the sufferer "comes to believe hosts of people are leagued against him, and all sane interests give way to a desire to thwart those imagined foes." (JJ, p. 350)

RW: The list of Lizzie's eventual "foes" is a long one: Abby, Andrew, Emma, Hiram Harrington, the WCTU, the congregation of her church, etc., and includes most who were once her friends. Lizzie took action to thwart many of these. She reported Uncle Hiram as her father's only known enemy, which could have placed him under suspicion for Andrew's murder. She caused the WCTU to leave the AJBorden building before its lease was up. She left her church, never to return. She remained estranged from Emma for the last twenty years of her life. Many believe she slaughtered her step-mother and her own father.

Williams explains that grandiosity gives the patient "courage to bear up against his enemies, with the assurance of ultimate victory." (JJ, p.351)

RW: Could the inscription on Maplecroft's fireplace mantel of "In My Ain Countree" describe Lizzie's feelings here?

Williams describes such paranoiacs as potentially becoming "very dangerous...Murders are often committed by patients in this condition..." Williams notes that recognition of these individuals is "no easy matter..." because "dissembling is carried on to an extent that renders detection almost impossible." (JJ, pp.352-53)

RW: Most writing about the case, even by those defending Lizzie's innocence, cites numerous instances in her inquest testimony which are difficult to reconcile with the truth as testified to by others.

Williams' final point: "The paranoiac is the curse of his friends, the despair of his neighbors, a menace to society." (JJ, p. 354)

RW: Did Andrew Jennings fear this was true of Lizzie? If not, why did he keep this article, the only of its kind, enclosed with his journal?

In my next post, I will cite research naming schizophrenia as the most common diagnosis given to parracide offenders (those who kill a parent).
Finally, after that, I will cite quotes about Lizzie's possible depression, the other condition which could explain her "slowness."

[camgarsky4]

Reason...you are doing a fine job of building to a crescendo!

[Reasonwhy]

Thanks, Camgarsky! Can’t wait to see what you may think of all this…should finish by tonight or tomorrow.

[Father Jack]

I remember reading somewhere that Jennings was offered the option of copping an insanity plea in Lizzie's defense which at least would keep her from the gallows. Jennings of course declined, but maybe he entertained the possibility for a short while which would explain why he included Williams' article in his journal.

[Reasonwhy]

Hi, Father Jack. Yep, sure could explain it
Still, the question is, what was Jennings’ impression of Lizzie that he thought this article would have convinced the jury she was “insane”?

Does it convince you?

[Father Jack]

I seem to recall that the offer of an insanity plea is contained in the Knowlton Papers. Jennings vigorously declined the offer it seems, but maybe he wanted to give it some brief consideration. Nope, I don't think Lizzie was a bit insane, nor would the jury have bought it.
As to Lizzie being slow about doing things, she had nothing but time on her hands and not much to do with that time. Perhaps doing things slowly just helped to fill that time for her. Just a thought, and I'm probably wrong. I've long suspected that Jennings secretly thought that she might be guilty, but couldn't abide the thought of her meeting the hangman.

[Reasonwhy]

I’ve always thought that about Jennings, too! But after closely reading that article, I’m wondering if he thought that she did it, but did it due to “insanity.” Had the prosecution’s case been stronger, I think Jennings might well have tried such an insanity defense—those would have been some interesting court sessions, huh?

Oh, and maybe see if you think she just might have been “slow” due to depression—going to write about that next…would like to know your thoughts after you read that

[Father Jack]

Given her reputation for moodiness, no doubt depression factored in, perhaps with a soupcon of desperation if she suspected that Pater was soon to make a will that would not be as advantageous to her as she would like.

[PossumPie]

I have a master's degree in counseling psychology and worked with mentally ill patients for 25 years as a psychotherapist. After I got my RN degree, I worked as a psychiatric nurse. I've worked with hundreds of schizophrenics (Paranoid, Undifferentiated, Residual, and Simple schizophrenia).
Also personality disorder patients such as schizotypal, schizoaffective, and schizophreniform patients. The common factor is bizarre behaviors that cannot be hidden from others. Lizzie had no psychotic disorder nor did she have a psychotic personality disorder. Back in the days before Thorazine, it would have been impossible for her to live outside of an asylum, much less alone in her own house. She taught Sunday school and went to Europe, both would have been impossible with a psychosis disorder. "Insanity" is a legal word, not a medical one. Mental disorders are classified as neurotic (depression, anxiety, OCD) or Psychotic (schizophrenia, etc.) We all have "neurotic traits" and appear normal in society while people with psychotic traits stand out as bizarre and unpredictable.

That is NOT to say that she had no mental health diagnosis. I believe that her behaviors may be consistent with a sociopathic personality disorder. Any personality disorder is developed early in childhood and virtually impossible to change. Think of other personality traits: Shyness, outgoing, pessimist, optimist, extrovert, etc. These are ingrained from birth and extremely resistant to change. Aside from depression, or anxiety, there is no psychological disorder that causes only slowness. Catatonia causes one to be immobile for long periods of time, like a statue, but it is a psychotic disorder with many other serious traits Lizzie didn't have. Lizzie may have had grandiosity, and perhaps then could be diagnosed with Narcissistic personality disorder (believing that you are the most important person in the world).

Looking at physiological/psychological reasons for Lizzie's "slowness" is difficult. We know nothing of her physical health, but nowhere else in newspapers or testimony do we see mention of her being unusually "slow". I tend to think as Reasonwhy mentioned above that perhaps Major Depression could be an explanation. There is no constant "slowness" but it does create a brain fog that slows thinking and acting. Someone with depression could rush across a busy street or hatchet her parents quickly if necessary...

Physiological causes of slowness don't fit either. Parkinson's (no tremors mentioned) cerebral palsy (no slurred speech or walking problems mentioned), muscular dystrophy (same symptoms as C.P.), amyotrophic lateral sclerosis also known as Lou Gerhig's disease, (no decompensation or walking difficulty noted in Lizzie) There is no physical disease that causes only slowness in speech and ambulation without obvious other problems.

[Miss Pea]

It makes sense to turn over every stone....because the big stone (the verdict, and even years later trial redone, the final verdict--still, "not guilty," beyond a reasonable doubt, based on admissible evidence) remains "splat." Yet I find the notion that Lizzie was schizophrenic unlikely. PossumPie has much more experience than I do with mental health patients but as far as Major Depression, of the people I have known personally, or through reading, with Major Depression, lack of personal hygiene is a hallmark--things start to slide--and Lizzie strikes me as not exhibiting this. She managed on her own at Maplecroft for years. (Yes, I know she had hired help, but even that takes wherewithal.)

A woman who will have no other way of procuring money save through inheritance isn't necessarily paranoid because she thinks what is "rightfully" hers is at risk of being lessened or going away. Lizzie may have been a self-preservation sort of personality type.

[CagneyBT]

Many accounts of Lizzie’s disposition, ranging from when she was a child to adulthood, refer to her moodiness. Her childhood friend, Louisa Stillwell, made references in her diary as early as 1876 to Lizzie feeling “blue.” An article in The Springfield Daily Union from Aug. 8, 1892 noted “She has long been noted for her morbidness and her peculiar disposition” In an interview with John V. Morse for the same newspaper, he was asked “Do you know whether Lizzie is or has been sullen or peculiar, or morbid?” Mr. Morse hesitated, then said, “Yes, she is.”

Her uncle Hiram Harrington is quoted as saying, “ Lizzie is of a repellent disposition, and after an unsuccessful passage with her father would become sulky and refuse to speak to him for days at a time.”

I found this article in another post. It offers first-hand insight into Lizzie’s personality.

“Was Queer/ Not Insane/ A Second cousin Described Some of Lizzie Borden's Oddities",
Boston Herald, August 7, 1892: Rebello Pages 176-177.

(Note: William Wilcox and Ella F. Cluny were in-laws, not brother & sister. Ella Gladding married William B. Cluny. William Wilcox married Lucretia Gladding, Ella’s sister. William Wilcox was the distant relative of Andrew).

"A Herald reporter interviewed Mr. William B Wilcox and his sister Mrs. Ella F Cluny, distant relatives of the Andrew Borden, who lived in the Globe section of Fall River. Mrs.Cluny spent a week with the Bordens and did some housecleaning for them. She said she was always treated as a family member and never witnessed any ill feelings between Lizzie and Abby. "She never acted as though she disliked her stepmother, rather she seemed to show as much regard for her as I believed it possible for her to show anyone."

The reporter asked Mrs Cluny if she had any reason to believe Lizzie to be insane. Mrs Cluny said "No, I always thought she was pretty level headed. She was peculiar, though. She was odd, very odd. I have heard a number of persons speak of it." The reporter asked her to tell about Lizzie's oddities. Mrs Cluny said, "There were times whereby Lizzie would not speak to members of the family who were visiting the Bordens. She would act as though she dd not see them, and go right through rooms where they were without speaking a word to them. Then again, she would be extremely pleasant and would act as though there was nothing too much for her to do for any one....A great many members of the family had the same experience."

As the interview continued, Mrs Cluny stated Lizzie had "a great habit of staying in bed in the morning. I have seldom seen her at breakfast. She would invariably remain in bed until 10 o'clock or so".

Mrs Cluny provided the reporter with a vivid and revealing account of Lizzie's personality. He asked if Lizzie was "irritable or would she fly into a passion." She said "Lizzie never impressed her as being passionate. She seemed cold-blooded...she seemed to mope and sulk. I never heard any words, and couldn't tell what the trouble was, but I knew it was generally considered as one of Lizzie's odd streaks."

The issue of insanity surfaced when the reporter asked " Would you be surprised if it turned out now that she was insane?" Mrs Cluny replied "Well, yes, I should. Her odd streaks never lead me to think anything like that. She never acted in any way like an insane person --that is, what I call a maniac. She didn't do things wrong, and wouldn't get excited and hysterical. She just seemed to have spells of moping and sulking, and I call it her condition. Then there never was any insanity in the family that I know of...”"


RW: Lizzie gave up on the piano. She left school early. She had few childhood friends. She may have felt under-appreciated and begun to resent her stepmother and father as the cause of her lack of success. It was they who kept her in the shabby house and limited her social opportunities, she may have felt. As she reached adulthood, could she have realized her church work would not gain her entry into the social milieu of the "hill," and did her blame of Andrew and Abby increase? Further evidence of paranoia may be seen in her fear that Abby and Andrew were together conniving to whittle down her and Emma's inheritance to the degree they would be left with virtually nothing (even had they each been left with $25,000, a rumored figure, they would have survived handsomely). She does appear to believe her step-mother and father are her biggest persecutors.

RW: The list of Lizzie's eventual "foes" is a long one: Abby, Andrew, Emma, Hiram Harrington, the WCTU, the congregation of her church, etc., and includes most who were once her friends. Lizzie took action to thwart many of these. She reported Uncle Hiram as her father's only known enemy, which could have placed him under suspicion for Andrew's murder. She caused the WCTU to leave the AJBorden building before its lease was up. She left her church, never to return. She remained estranged from Emma for the last twenty years of her life. Many believe she slaughtered her step-mother and her own father.

Reasonwhy’s excellent anaylsis of Lizzie’s behavior could describe someone suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder: the moodiness, the paranoia, the depression (which could have resulted in Psychomotor Retardation or her “slowness.”)

Overview of BPD from The National Education Alliance for Borderline Personality Disorder:
Borderline personality disorder (BPD) is a serious mental illness that centers on the inability to manage emotions effectively. The disorder occurs in the context of relationships: sometimes all relationships are affected, sometimes only one. It usually begins during adolescence or early adulthood.
While some persons with BPD are high functioning in certain settings, their private lives may be in turmoil. Most people who have BPD suffer from problems regulating their emotions and thoughts, impulsive and sometimes reckless behavior, and unstable relationships
Other disorders, such as depression, anxiety disorders, eating disorders, substance abuse and other personality disorders can often exist along with BPD.
The diagnosis of BPD is frequently missed and a misdiagnosis of BPD has been shown to delay and/or prevent recovery. Bipolar disorder is one example of a misdiagnosis as it also includes mood instability. There are important differences between these conditions but both involve unstable moods. For the person with bipolar disorder, the mood changes exist for weeks or even months. The mood changes in BPD are much shorter and can even occur within the day.

These links cover the disorder in more detail.

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-bo ... bpd-425487
https://www.choosingtherapy.com/petulant-borderline/

Does Lizzie fit the criteria for BPD?

[camgarsky4]

Cagney -- great post (by both you and Reason) and topic......something I've been wanting to post about, but have been too lazy. Regarding BPD, I've pasted a list of symptoms from one of your links below. From what I know of Lizzie, I'm not sure this is a fit. Certain aspects might tease the diagnosis, but overall, Lizzie seemed to outwardly demonstrate a remarkably controlled, sterile personality and behavior which doesn't seem like a good match with the 4 symptoms listed. I've added in red type some random thoughts or looking for examples.

I do think Lizzie was a narcissist and lacked empathy for others.

For those that might react to this sentence by reminding us of the handful of years that Lizzie participated in the Fruit & Flower Mission, Sunday school, etc., I am of the school of thought that Lizzie engaged in those activities with the sole purpose of socially connecting with those she admired or envied (ex. Anna & Carrie Borden) and perhaps, to a lessor extent, having something to do.

Extract from above linked article:
Behaviors: BPD is associated with a tendency to engage in risky and impulsive behaviors, such as going on shopping sprees, drinking excessive amounts of alcohol or abusing drugs, engaging in promiscuous or risky sex, or binge eating. Also, people with BPD are more prone to engage in self-harming behaviors, such as cutting or burning and attempting suicide. Was she a shop lifter?
Emotions: Emotional instability is a key feature of BPD. Individuals feel like they're on an emotional roller coaster with quick mood shifts (i.e., going from feeling OK to feeling extremely down or blue within a few minutes). Mood changes can last from minutes to days and are often intense. Anger, anxiety, and overwhelming emptiness are common as well. Examples?
Relationships: People with BPD tend to have intense relationships with loved ones characterized by frequent conflicts, arguments, and break-ups. BPD is associated with an intense fear of being abandoned by loved ones and attempts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. This usually leads to difficulty trusting others, putting a strain on relationships. She struggled to maintain long term relationships, but were they ever intense?
Self-image: Individuals with BPD have difficulties related to the stability of their sense of self. They report many ups and downs in how they feel about themselves. One moment they may feel good about themselves, but the next they may feel they are bad or even evil. Examples?

[CagneyBT]

Thank you for the feedback, Camgarsky! You make some valid points.

We can’t know Lizzie’s internal, emotional make-up. We can only speculate based on the observation of others. If she was mentally ill, she was high-functioning, at least to the outside world. We can’t know, for example, if Lizzie was into self-mutilation or had threatened or attempted suicide. But we do know that she lost her mother at a young age and may have had attachment issues as a result.

According to the Mayo Clinic, a stressful childhood can be a cause of BPD. “Many people with the disorder report being sexually or physically abused or neglected during childhood. Some people have lost or were separated from a parent or close caregiver when they were young or had parents or caregivers with substance misuse or other mental health issues. Others have been exposed to hostile conflict and unstable family relationships.”

The Bordens were known to be secretive. We aren’t privy to what happened behind closed doors. We do know their house was in excessive lock-down. Was it to protect themselves from the outside or from danger within the house itself?

While researching BPD, I read cases of parents dealing with children who were afflicted with it. It’s truly heartbreaking. These posts stood out to me because I could Imagine the authors as Andrew or Abby (I edited the posts for content):

My daughter has constantly blamed myself and her stepfather for everything that is wrong in her life, we are **bleep** parents and our home, her hone has a negative energy she can not be around. I’m broken and unable to see a way forward , l love my daughter with every fiber of my being and have made excuses for her over the years, gone into impressive debt to try and get her help only to have it thrown in my face and told I don’t hear her truth that I’ve made her this way by not understanding .

Where to start, my once beautiful caring loving daughter who I was once so close to and she was with me has become a monster....  What has changed more than anything else is her violence towards me (I am by no means a small man and can easily defend myself, but the idea of having to resort to violence against one of my children to defend myself I just cant do it)..recently after tests it was revealed that I have a heart condition and high blood pressure that could lead to stroke if i am not careful.. I tried explaining this to my daughter in the hope she would accept help, her only response was, "I better be in the will", which literally broke what was left of my heart...she has become a monster, my beautiful girl who up to the age of 15 we were so close is now someone I almost hate...I am so lost

I used to lock myself in my bedroom at night of fear because at her lows she was violently attacking me and threatening me  ...she generally sleeps the whole time

This article addresses BPD in adolescence. I can imagine similar interactions between a young Lizzie & Andrew and Abby from a 19th century perspective:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... e-daughter

Maybe Lizzie didn’t have BPD. Maybe Lizzie was just a run of the mill sociopath.

[camgarsky4]

Cagney -- I don't recall which thread we discussed this in-depth....but I'm not sure the house was in excessive lock-down. It could be reasonably argued that the inside doors which locked when the house was a duplex were kept as locking doors when converted to a single home.

Borden bedroom would have been the back door for the 2nd story. Clothes closet 2nd floor would have been originally locked since it was located in common space in the upstairs landing. The Guest or Lizzie's room would have been an exterior door as the 'front door' for the 2nd floor. Its not odd (to me) that the door connecting two bedrooms (Lizzie & Borden's) would have a lock on each side. My kids can lock their bedroom doors. Lizzie was 32 and Abby 42.

AJB left the key to his door sitting on the fireplace mantle in case Abby needed access while he was out of the house. That does not fit the definition of excessive internal security.

To my way of thinking, this issue is one of the 'myths' about this case which has taken root.

Back to the psychologies of Lizzie....I strongly believe she planned the murders for at least 3 weeks. I don't know what mental issues she might have had, but I don't think we need to identify one that supports the idea of sudden violence. I don't think this case of violence was made on the spur of the moment.

[KGDevil]

I also don't believe it's possible to diagnose Lizzie with any mental illness this long after her death and using what amounts to snapshots of her life. But I believe that when what we do know about behaviors that Lizzie exhibited are examined some definite patterns emerge.

I'm conflicted about the locks because most of the doors upstairs were kept locked which included the closet in the hall. If Emma and Lizzie wanted to go down to the kitchen they had to go by way of the front stairs. The door between Lizzie and Andrew's bedroom was kept locked. The locks being there from when it was still an apartment makes sense but that doesn't mean they still had to use them on a daily basis. How many people lock all of their interior doors on a consistent daily basis? Only members of the family would know that key on the mantle was for the bedroom upstairs unless they were told. Dr. Bowen was told where to find it the day of the murders. According to Alice Russell, after the murders the doors were all unlocked so that they could walk straight through the upstairs. For me, that indicates that the reason for locking the doors was no longer valid.

I would not personally point to any involvement with the church as proof of criminal capability. There are known killers who were respected members of churches or performed “good works”. The most famous reference that always comes to mind is Ted Bundy working for a suicide hotline where his job was to talk people down from killing themselves. BTK was a Church Deacon. A more contemporary example is William Durrant who was an assistant superintendent at a Sunday School in 1898 when he killed two woman and hid their bodies in the steeple of the church. How many members of the clergy have been involved in abusing children? Many killers have managed to somehow function in a normal way in society which is why people were so shocked when their identity was revealed. Some serial killers have said in interviews this was achieved through compartmentalizing the different aspects of themselves. The only people who saw their violent sides were their victims.

A few people mentioned Lizzie using the silent treatment when she was angry or had ill feelings. We can observe these instances in hindsight as well and I think both sisters were guilty of it. In witness statements on page 45 is Jane Gray's statement that Lizzie and Emma would ignore Abby's family when they would visit the Borden house. The notes are from Edwin McHenry, which usually gives people pause, but this behavior fits with other incidents. When Emma moved out of Maplecroft the two sisters never spoke again. Emma made multiple visits to Fall River to see friends and spent several days at a time. But she didn’t see Lizzie. An article written in 1913 describes Emma living in Fall River with the Buck family, “The Buck residence is at the corner of Prospect and June Street an easy walking distance from the Borden home on French street, but neither Misses Buck nor Misses Emma ever pay or receive visits from Lizzie Borden”. Both sisters disinherited the other which clearly wasn’t about the money. When Lizzie and Emma had visitors on Second street they did not use the parlor in the more communal area of the house. They chose a sparsely decorated spare bedroom upstairs instead. They may not have wanted Abby involved in their interactions. Lizzie ate meals separately. She didn't speak to anyone when she returned home on the night before the murders. A few witnesses said Lizzie thought Abby was deceitful and didn’t stick up for them to Andrew. Or that Abby claimed not to have influence over Andrew but Lizzie felt that was a lie. Lizzie wanted to do things that she didn’t have the means to do and live in a manner that Andrew didn’t think was necessary. Andrew bought Abby a house for her family to live in. If Andrew was always so generous why would this have caused a rift? Lizzie didn’t waste any time moving out of that house after the murders to a house with bathtubs and all of the modern amenities.

Nance O’Neil spoke about Lizzie in an interview describing her as a gray haired, gray eyed gentlewoman who was well read, intelligent, and extensively traveled, but also very lonely and depressed. The actress described their friendship as “two ships passing in the night” and they stopped communicating after a relatively short period of time. Lizzie stopped going to church or even shopping in the stores in Fall River. This doesn’t strike me as someone with a deep-seated need for attention.

There were comments attributed to Emma in a 1913 interview, “Some persons have stated for years that they considered Lizzie’s actions decidedly queer. But what if she did act queerly? Don’t we all do something peculiar at one time or another? Queer? Yes, Lizzie is queer.” (A “member of the Buck family” stated afterward that this interview was not authentic.)

The story about the note feels impulsive to me. Lizzie needed a lie; she just didn’t think it through very well. The trip to see her friends at the cottage before the murders feels impulsive as do the comments about hearing Abby come in. The story about where she was when Andrew came home and excuses for going to the barn changed. She put herself in a spot to be watching the logical exit for a killer. Lizzie was trying to control the situation but wasn’t making logical choices. She seemed to be throwing things against the wall to see what stuck. If the murder itself was an impulsive act, even if she’d thought about it and planned ways to do it for who knows how long, everything that followed would be somewhat impulsive because she’d have been forced to think on her feet. We should all know that thinking about doing something in your mind and actually doing it can be two different experiences. But she exhibited poor and illogical decision making (aside from murder). The story that she told Alice Russell about Andrew's imagined enemies in my opinion was pure theatre. She was afraid someone would burn their house down because Andrew was rude?

Some of her best friends later in life were her servants. They were people who were not really any type of threat or competition for her. She controlled their fate in a way through being their employer.

[CagneyBT]

Lizzie’s mental stability has been argued numerous times on this forum, and I was responding to the thread subject accordingly. The possibility of her having Borderline Personality Disorder is just one option out of many that have been discussed. You can take it into consideration or discard it. All debate is good.

That being said, I’ve read through the most recent thread discussing the locks in the Borden house. https://lizzieandrewborden.com/LBForum/ ... php?t=6412

I agree with Possumpie....”The locking everything is secondary to O.C.D. or anxiety disorder or something. I tell my students that we all have mental quirks and they only become diagnosable disorders when they significantly interfere with our lives. The inability for anyone to enter a room without digging for a key seems to qualify for "significantly interfering".
Yes, the locks were there all along and had a logical purpose. Yes, locking one's bedroom if one is changing, or having sex is completely normal. No, keeping them always locked is pathological distrust either of the world in general or of each other...”

I think it was a distrust of Lizzie, and the elder Bordens had grown increasingly fearful of her.

KG made a great point about the locks: “According to Alice Russell, after the murders the doors were all unlocked so that they could walk straight through the upstairs. For me, that indicates that the reason for locking the doors was no longer valid.”

Camgarsky, I also believe she plotted the murders beforehand;her initial motive was inheritance and her method of choice was poison. My personal theory is something happened Wednesday morning, after Abby returned from visiting Dr. Bowen. Perhaps Lizzie overheard Abby confiding in Andrew that she suspected Lizzie of poisoning them. The word “insane” may even have been bantered about by Abby. Didn’t Dr. Bowen testify that he saw someone...possibly Lizzie...running upstairs as he stopped by to check on Andrew that same morning?

I think Lizzie decided on that Wednesday morning that she had to resort to more drastic measures. So she visited Alice Russell that night and set the stage for the events of August 4.

If you believe Agnes DeMille in The Dance of Death, Lizzie was indeed capable of violent outbursts. This is an excerpt that was previously posted on the forum:

From DeMille, page 83."Native townsfolk, however, rarely saw the inside of her mansion, except Mr. Jennings, her lawyer, summoned peremptorily to take care of this or that until he finally lost patience and declined to follow up any more of her whims.
It was only servants or workmen, hired occasionally for alterations, who got in and were able to report what went on. The accounts were meager. One of them once, though, witnessed a curious scene in connection with the laying of some bricks on a back terrace. Miss Borden returned from shopping to find them cemented contrary to her instructions. She wheeled on the laborer and without a moment's warning flew into such a white fury that she seemed almost out of her mind. Her language and the violence of her physical demeanor were horrifying. The workman left and refused to return. This incident was undoubtedly of significance chiefly because of her history. No workman would have paid much heed to the bad temper of an ordinary cantankerous rich old spinster."

[camgarsky4]

Firstly, I really enjoy your analysis of the possibility of BPD. It is definitely a real consideration. You have a wonderful and easy to read writing style.

I agree that poison was the plan....and it was still the plan around 10:30 Wednesday morning up until she got shut down by Eli Pence & posse. For over a year I've been debating back and forth with myself when she pivoted to violence and the hatchet. The change in tactics could have been cooked up as she sat in her room from noon (lunch) to 6pm when she took off for Alice Russell's. Or she could have decided any time after she got home and the next morning. In my minds eye, Lizzie didn't sleep much that night and so had plenty of thinking time to decide on the hatchet. Did she hear something Morse and AJB discussed that evening and that made August 4th a MUST day for action? So poison out (since she didn't have any) and hatchet in (since she had it ready to go to Marion).

On the topic of door locks, it appears I just have a different POV than most.

I don't see the point that the purpose of the lock between Lizzie and the elder Borden's was gone when Alice spent the night and mentioned they went back and forth thru the doorway. The Borden's were dead and Alice slept in the Borden's bedroom and was there at Lizzie/Emma's request. They passed thru that door because they were socializing (and visiting the cellar). Not sure how that is a controversial issue or proves anything one way or the other.

Why put a lock on the clothes closet door if the locks were intended to protect from an occupant of the house (AJB or Lizzie)? The clothes closet was outside the 2nd floor apartment, so a lock on that door was necessary to protect the personal property stored in the closet.

I do disagree with Possum's POV on the locked doors. Do I think the connecting door was a super highway....no, but do I think it was opened on rare and random occasions when both sides concurred to open it, yes I do. As a proof point, take a look at Jennings Journals pg. 13-14. Emma tells us how AJB called out to her from his side of the door, she came to the door and presumably he opened it, because she walked thru it to check out the burglary attempt in his bedroom. She sure didn't make it seem like a once in a lifetime event.

In my opinion, the matter of the internal locked doors is an example of 'much ado about nothing'.

[CagneyBT]

Camgarsky, I genuinely enjoy your posts, as well. They’re always well-thought out and thoroughly researched. They’re a pleasure to read.

We can agree to disagree. We all perceive the events involving the Bordens differently and conflicting POV’s are inevitable. Who’s to say who’s right or who’s wrong?

We do agree about premeditation. The presence of John Morse may have been a factor..not as a suspect, but as someone who was overhead by Lizzie discussing something that triggered such rage in her. Their relationship was odd; Morse supported her throughout the trial, even bringing her meals while she was in jail, yet Lizzie never wrote to him or acknowledged him that Wednesday evening. Makes a person go “hmm.” What was going on between those two? Another mystery within a mystery.

I still like the theory that Abby “caught on” that Lizzie was administering poison and tried to alert Andrew. In Lizzie’s mind, the jig was up, and she had to act fast, changing methods as a result.

Thanks for the discussion!

[KGDevil]

I've started to think about it like this in regards to a motive for Lizzie, besides the money, I think it was just a slowly burning outrage that built from year to year. Lizzie and Emma knew that Andrew had a lot of money. What one relative would you pick to have the final say on pretty much every decision you have to make in life when you are in your early thirties? From what clothes you could afford to buy, to the food you ate, to what trips you could take. It all came down to what Andrew would agree to pay for Lizzie to have and do. They also felt Abby didn't help them out or take their side when it came to Andrew. Lizzie was eating cold mutton for breakfast and wearing paint stained dresses around the house when they knew Andrew could afford to do more. She definitely came to know what he could've afforded because she spent his money after he was murdered. We see the way she was living then. He could've afforded that lifestyle all along and Emma and Lizzie knew it.