Was Lizzie A Thief?

[PossumPie]

We have come up with several possibilities of what the parcel Andrew brought home contained. The filter I am using is the 5x5x1 description Mrs. Kelly provided. Also, to-date, there is no evidence of him acquiring anything item during his morning walk.

1) The broken lock Andrew picked from Clegg's new store. Question: When & why did it get wrapped?
2) A quarter folded 'wrapped' newspaper. Question: Did they quarter fold newspapers back then?
3) Journal or ledger. Bridget saw Andrew a book or papers. Question: Where did he get the journal and what did it contain?
4) Packet of tobacco found on Andrew's dead body. Question: When did it get opened and why was he carrying it vs. in pocket as found?

They all have a legit argument for and against. To take this any further, we'd have to answer Possum's fine question....what was the document and why didn't the subject surface during investigation. I'm also going to try and get an answer to the quarter folded newspaper question.

Very good summary, camgarsky. I think the "quarter folded newspaper" seems unlikely. Andrey seemed to be a tidy man and to fold and refold a paper would leave a mess to try to read with all of the creases. If it was a lock, the question of why he didn't just put the lock in his pocket instead of wrapping it in paper could be restated as why didn't he just put whatever the parcel was in his pocket instead of carrying it. The tobacco angle bothers me because if it were a pouch, it would have a picture and writing on it, not a blank white paper. He could have gotten some from a friend and wrapped it in paper knowing that he didn't need a whole packet for his "needs". He did go up to his bedroom upon returning home, which fuels your speculation that it may have been important papers he wished to lock away--but why didn't anyone come forward afterward to say "I may have a motive, I gave him XYZ papers minutes before the murder!"

[camgarsky4]

My 'working' theory on the lock and the parcel was that Andrew had the parcel in his coat pocket until he got to Clegg's new store. Once he picked up the lock, he put that in his pocket for whatever reason and carried the parcel. That would explain why Mather didn't see a parcel, but folks after Clegg store visit did see the parcel, but not a lockset.

[Kat]

The folded newspaper was just an experiment between Harry and I. And then,if we put a "wrapper" on that folded newspaper, it may fit. But, if that was a common thing, than I'm beginning to think that others would not see it as distinctly a"parcel," but rather would identify it as a newspaper in a wrapper- something with which they were already familiar.
A parcel sounds like an item that someone is curious about- like I wonder what is in Mr Borden's parcel...

[camgarsky4]

I agree Kat. Its odd to fold a newspaper into quarters, but if they did, then to your point, folks would know what it was.

There are some notations in JJ that are additive info about Andrew's walk that morning. I'm still perusing that info....hoping there is a little clue somewhere like we got with Dr. Bowen's being on the opposite side of town from the Emery's at 11am (per his driver). That was good and new intel.

[Kat]

Save me from Porter! While I was looking up references to locked doors there, I found page 224: that Andrew picked "up an old block [sic] which he wrapped up in paper and took home, he started to go to his house."
Porter was a reporter, but basically what we are getting from him is newspaper coverage.

[camgarsky4]

I do think that the parcel AJB brought into his home was either the broken lock or yet unidentified paperwork/journal. I regard the wrapped newspaper or the tobacco packet in a much lessor likelihood bucket.

He was seen with a lock moments before arriving home and he was seen with paperwork immediately upon arriving home. In between he have a 5x5x1 wrapped in white paper parcel.

My headline hurdle with the lock set is below.

Mather's Preliminary Hearing cross examination: He specifically notes that AJB did NOT wrap the lock. Also, at the trial, Shortsleeves testified that the lock was "broken to pieces". That clearly suggests the lock was in multiple pieces. That is even more difficult to imagine resembling what Mrs. Kelly described.

I'm going to do a little more "yale lock" googling.

Q. You say he went to the window, and took something?
A. And old lock that was there, an old store lock.
Q. Was it an iron lock?
A. A Yale lock.
Q. Brass?
A. A brass bolt and brass springs inside.
Q. Did he wrap it up in anything?
A. No Sir, took it in his hands.
Q. Did he have anything else in his hand that you noticed at the time?
A. I did not notice.
Q. Did he carry that away with him?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did he have it in his hand when you last saw him?
A. Yes Sir.

[Kat]

How can Porter even know this? I can only picture Porter following Andrew down the street writing down everything that he said and did and that would be before the murder. ..not likely!

[PossumPie]

Here's a question: Why didn't the police or prosecution, or even the defense pursue the package angle? Did nobody think it important/relevant, or was it explained to everyone's satisfaction and just failed to make it into the record? What a man was carrying moments before his death should be of utmost importance to everyone... Sure we have people asking questions about a lock, but did they search the house for the lock? did they search for a package? It seems it was brought up, half-heartedly explored, then dropped. Most package detective work is by Bordenophiles over 100 years later.

[camgarsky4]

I have the same question about the Prince Albert coat. Knowlton even mentions it as a possible blood shield in his closing arguments. But there is nothing in the police witness statements or testimony (outside of descriptions of how they found AJB) about it or where it went. Did they ask which screen needed repair? You'd have to think that was checked on one of the many searches....but police records don't tell us so.

I don't know if the police did or didn't follow up more on the parcel, the Prince Albert coat, or multiple other issues. I think they did in many cases, but we obviously are missing police and prosecution information. Knowlton called too many witnesses that we aren't super sure what they were going to share for there not to be more info at that time. He wasn't just willy nilly summoning folks.

Elizabeth Johnston must have been called to the grand jury about the Marion letter...yet we don't know anything she might have said or not except that Elizabeth became estranged from Lizzie about the time of the Grand jury (per PL). Are Grand Jury transcripts even kept?

Can't imagine the Hilliard papers will provide much new insights, but keep our fingers crossed at least a couple issues are better understood when those are published.

My point is, I suspect if the police/prosecution/defense couldn't fetter out solid information/evidence on any of a # of issues, it was never surfaced at the trial and all we are left with are some 'hanging chads'. So if they couldn't figure out what the parcel was, it wasn't mentioned at the trial, because why would they?

Lastly, the parcel didn't have to have anything to do with the murders. I find it an interesting little riddle based on the trail it left and the embers in the fire. Somewhere towards the end of the trail a man was killed and nothing parcel like on him (it seems). So I'm just looking for an explanation that I'm satisfied with. I haven' yet.

[PossumPie]

I have the same question about the Prince Albert coat. Knowlton even mentions it as a possible blood shield in his closing arguments. But there is nothing in the police witness statements or testimony (outside of descriptions of how they found AJB) about it or where it went.

Ahhh, the coat. Yes, I know Andrew's personality. He started life with little, made money through good business deals. Saved a penny by addressing his own newspaper labels even with a fortune in the bank. There is no way that he crumpled his Prince Albert and stuffed it under his head as a pillow. Even if deathly ill, he would have carefully hung it on a hook so it stayed unwrinkled and didn't get hair oil all over it. They were full of buttons and pleats and "murder" to iron or press. That coat got placed under his head after he died. Why? Did someone wear it backward then place it there to mask the blood drops on it? Could Lizzie really have touched his bloody head to lift it and place the coat under? Many questions!

[Reasonwhy]

Reasonwhy, there is a floor plan at that same topic (as my post suggestion, above) that has an item of furniture blocking the Elder Borden's door into Lizzie's room. Maybe that is what you saw?
Here is the link. I don't know the source or how accurate it is but it might put you on the track of finding what you recalled?

https://lizzieandrewborden.com/LBForum/ ... ing#p99477

Thanks, Kat, for finding and posting that! Yes, I came across that diagram when trying to source my recollection, but did not post it, because I still thought I had also read of blocking furniture verbally described. Will keep looking as I can.

By the way, do we know who made that diagram? It’s most helpful to see the furniture in place.

I just knew I had read that furniture blocked the door adjoining Lizzie’s and Abby’s and Andrew’s bedrooms! And I just found at least one source:

In “Goodbye, Lizzie Borden,” Robert Sullivan wrote, “There was a connecting door between Lizzie’s room and that of the elder Bordens, but on 4 August 1892 — and for a long time previously — this door was locked and blocked with heavy furniture.” (P. 17)

His source was apparently the diagram on p.15 of the same book, showing a rectangle marked as “heavy bureau” on the elder Bordens’ side of the common bedroom door. This diagram is labeled, “Upstairs-Floor Plan of the Borden Home, by Charles Carroll, after Porter.” And the diagram on p. 14, of the “Ground-Floor Plan of the Borden Home” is sub-labeled, “By Charles Carroll, Based on Official Testimony, and Porter.” Presumably Porter means the reporter Edwin Porter. But who is Charles Carroll? Clearly I next need to check out Porter and the testimony of Charles Carroll…

Of course, the reason that that door blocking would be interesting, if true, would be that it would effectively prevent Lizzie (or Emma?) from entering Andrew and Abbey’s bedroom…so was the fear of intrusion, or worse, on Andrew and Abby’s part, of Lizzie (and maybe Emma) and NOT the other way around?
Now, were Sullivan/Porter/Carroll correct about this?

And, I certainly wish Sullivan had been more specific — and footnoted! — his remark that the bureau had been in place for a long time previous to August 4. One wonders if ‘a long time’ would have extended back to the in/home burglary or even prior to it.

[camgarsky4]

Sullivan wouldn't know anything we don't know and there is no testimony or documentation that that door was blocked by furniture. All that is referenced for that door is the need for keys to unlock the elder side and a hook on Lizzie's side.

[Kat]

I next need to check out Porter and the testimony of Charles Carroll…—partial, reasonwhy.

I figure you know there is no *testimony* by Charles Carroll, and it sounds like he was some kind of writer (newspapers?) who would be paraphrasing what might have been *testimony.* The newspapers did that a lot. Please can we use the word in precise legal context, each time? It gets confusing, otherwise.

Edit here to add: is the Carroll fellow an artist for the
newspaper or illustrator, rather than writer?

[Kat]

Unfortunately there are mistakes and assumptions made in the floor plan posted at the topic link.
For one thing, in the guest room, the sewing machine was not placed there, it was on the same wall as the big bureau, on the west side of the window. It can actually be seen in a good quality copy of the crime scene photo. And there was a camp chair near the head of the bed, and just beyond the bureau, a rocker by the window.
That (colorful) floor plan has been around since at least 2002 when not all transcripts were easily available.

But it is always good to go to original source, and de Millie’s book Dance of Death has second floor plan direct from Kieran which was a trial exhibit.

Plz clic on pic

[Kat]

Then if we go to what Alice says, when they came through that connecting door between Andrew and Abbie’s room, into Lizzie’s, there was a portiere there, like a curtain, on Lizzie’s side. Alice doesn’t describe moving any furniture to get in and she asked to be first to go through the door.

We can get a decent idea of placement of some furniture by reading the transcripts, if anyone wants to volunteer.

[camgarsky4]

I'm 99% sure that only 'furniture block a door' testimony or witness statement relates to the door between Lizzie's room and the guest room. I can dig around if anyone needs substantiation.

Jennings Journals pg 33. Emma recalls...."Heard father knock on door of my room (now lizzies) he called me -- I unlocked the door and went in, everything was thrown about."

Seems pretty definitive that nothing was blocking the connecting door in mid-year 1891.

I searched newspapers.com in the 1890's for Charles Carroll and found no Fall River articles with that name

Kat -- the 'portier' observation is something I've not noticed before. Going to go reread that testimony.....that is setting off nice little jingles (in contrast to bells ringing) in my head. :)

[Kat]

You’re pretty funny

I think you are right about the desk blocking the guest room door into Lizzie’s room, as the only example of blockage.
And there was another portiere where Lizzie kept her little personal privacy nook.

[Kat]

I’ve Googled Charles Carroll ( as newspaper illustrator) but unfortunately he has the same name as the last surviving signer of The Declaration of Independence.

I also read the relevant page in Sullivan’s book, and I don’t know why he wrote that.

[Kat]

Here is Carroll’s work again- his version of what has been called a “birds eye view of Second Street.”

On the right is Sullivan and Carroll, on the left is from Rebello, by Robbins, for The Boston Daily Globe.

You may notice in many of your books there is this view illustrated by a different person- like agnes de mille (thats how her name shows on her cover), lizzie borden a dance of death (ditto), and she credits The Bettmann Archive, but the illustrator's name is cropped.
Radin uses that, too.

Arnold Brown credits reproduction from Robbins from Boston Globe, and Masterton reproduces from Sullivan.

(For added interest, Brown uses the second floor furniture arrangement on his floor plan which shows a bureau in front of the connecting door on the elder Borden’s side.)

[camgarsky4]

Bettman Archive - Wikipedia
The Bettmann Archive is a collection of over 18 million photographs and images,[1] some going back to the United States Civil War and including some of the best known U.S. historic images. The Archive also includes many images from Europe and elsewhere.

It was founded in 1936 by Otto Bettmann (1903–1998),[2] a German curator who immigrated to the United States in 1935.[1] He actively expanded his collection by advertising in magazines,[1] e.g. in the Winter 1959 issue of Film Quarterly "Wanting to buy: Old movie stills - ca. 1915 to 1935; early comedies -- well-known stars and productions."[3]

In 1960, Bettmann moved it from his apartment at 215 East 57th Street, in New York City to the Tishman Building. In 1981, Bettmann sold the archive to the Kraus Thomson Organization.[2]

In 1995, the archive was sold to Corbis, a digital stock photography company founded by Bill Gates.[1][4] Restrictions of access to the collection arising from this sale were described in the editorial "Goodbye to All That" in the May 2001 issue of American Heritage magazine.[5]

Between late-2001 and March 2002, to preserve the photos and negatives, Corbis moved the archive from Manhattan to the Iron Mountain National Underground Storage Facility, a former limestone quarry located 220 feet (67 m) below ground in western Pennsylvania. The temperature of the storage room is gradually being lowered to -4 °F (-20 °C), which was determined by film preservationist Henry Wilhelm to be the optimal temperature for the long-term storage of the archive.[6] At this temperature, the collection will degrade 500 times more slowly in than it did in Manhattan.[7] Meanwhile, Corbis has been scanning the negatives into digital form as they are ordered by clients.

[camgarsky4]

The Robbins illustration first appeared in the August 11, 1892 edition of the Boston Daily Globe, page 4.

In June 1893, Robbins also provided a similar 'birds eye' view from a southwest perspective with the primary goal of showing the Chagnon pear orchard and Crowe barn roof where the hatchet was found in June 1893.

In the August 11 illustration, Robbins used roman numerals to identify the various locations. On the June 1893 illustration he used 'normal' numbers to do the same.

The remarkably similar (to the August '92 Robbins illustration) illustration used by Radin and de Mille used 'normal' numbering. I use the word similar casually.....they are almost identical drawings....down to the street light near the Miller household. Hmmm....

Anyway, I wonder if Robbins got feedback to stop using roman numerals and use normal numbers. So at some point he redid his August '92 version with regular numbers. That version might be what was given to the Bettmann Archive to save for posterity.

After typing all that, I'm not sure whomever Charles Carroll might be, drew the neighborhood illustration and it might 'merely' be an updated version of Robbins original....perhaps updated by Robbins himself.

[Reasonwhy]

All of the research you have done to track down the house/room diagrams has been impressive, Kat and Camgarsky. I am glad to know their origins, even if only in part.

I have not found any textual reference to furniture placement in reviewing my copy of Edwin Porter’s “Fall River Tragedy.” (Please recall Robert Sullivan’s “Goodbye Lizzie Borden” includes a diagram of the ground floor of the Borden house, with attribution to Charles Carroll and Porter). Porter summarizes the testimony of Thomas Kieran, whom he variously calls “… an architect, who had drawn plans” and “Civil Engineer Thomas Kieran” in chapters XIII and XXIII of his book (no pagination in book). Though there are two house diagrams included in Porter’s book, no source for them is given, and the guest room bed and the sitting room sofa are the only furniture they depict.

I hoped maybe William D. Spencer in “Lizzie Borden Uncut” in his Sullivan commentary would address Sullivan’s “blocked with heavy furniture” statement or at least the diagram Sullivan includes which depicts it, but he does not.

Perhaps study of Porter’s news stories from the Fall River Globe would yield mentions by him of the subject? I’m not sure how much research this matter is worth.

But, I am left curious about why at least some believed the “heavy bureau” was placed against that door in the elders’ bedroom. Charles Carroll, and by suggestion of the diagram’s caption, Porter — had reason to believe it had been there. Where did that notion come from?

[Kat]

I guess what we’ve been working on is where, at least, it didn’t come from.
It was not original to the day, and Kieran’s trial exhibit floorplan.
………….
Actually, I’ve always been fascinated by courtroom artists and their craft- and that would include these artists who illustrated the newspaper stories. I think they are extremely talented and I wanted to know more about Mr Carroll and also Robbins, and Poole- (and Muriel Arnold’s family member also did a birds-eye-view, at least of Third Street that was fab!)

Also, Rebello, pg 161:
Newspaper artists included G. A. Blair, W. T. Tenney and Bert Poole for the Boston papers; Edward H. Martin and Z. W. Pease of New Bedford and others for the Fall River Daily Globe, Fall River Daily Herald and the Fall River Evening News.

Thanks for all the researched info, camgarsky!

[Kat]

BTW: that colorful floorplan we’ve been referring to also has a different position of the elder Borden’s bed that also does not match Kieran.

[Kat]

Here is the floorplan from Porter.
I guess what the question is, which author is the first to influence the change and include a heavy piece of furniture put on the other side of Lizzie’s door - when and why?
Everyone would have to get their earliest books out…
The plan in Pearson, 1937, doesn’t show it.

[camgarsky4]

I don't have a copy of Porter's book.

Earliest I have is Pearson's 1924 "Studies in Murder" and no illustrations in that book. When I pulled that book out to thumb thru it, I was sadly reminded that my puppy chewed the front hard cover of the book. Urghhh....

Also, just to make sure I didn't miss something above, do we have any clue yet on how and when Charles Carroll became involved in the illustrations involving the case? Or who he was?

[Kat]

I have not been able to find Charles Carroll, but he might be a contemporary of Sullivan, whom he hired to illustrate some of these plans, like the”Birds-EyeView” of Second Street and that second floor floorplan.

But guess what? I did look at 2 bibliographic lists of authors, one by Stef (I helped) and one in Spencer’s book, and looked at dates of publication, and went thru the ones I had, and called Stef on 1 I did not have (Hands of Time which I had added to my list) and Sullivan is the first author who puts that bureau in the plan on Andrew’s side of the connecting door with Lizzie.

I don’t know why he did it: it doesn’t prove anything (like incest- if bureau on her side it might show she wanted no ingress). It’s an oddity and thanks reasonwhy for bringing it to attention.
It was also interesting to see which authors came after and used that furniture piece to block the door. I don’t know what it means.

———————————

Porter, Edwin H. The Fall River Tragedy. Fall River, MA: George R. H. Buffinton, Press of J. D. Munroe, 1893. Rpt. with new introduction by Robert Flynn. Portland, ME: King Philip Pub., 1985.
-- see previous post of plan- no piece of furniture there


Pearson, Edmund. The Trial of Lizzie Borden. New York: Doubleday, 1937. Rpt. as The Trial of Lizzie Borden by Edmund Pearson; Notable Trials Library Edition, Foreword by Alan Dershowitz. Delran, NJ: Gryphon, 1991.
—“From Porter”, no obstruction

Radin, Edward. Lizzie Borden: The Untold Story. NY: Simon & Schuster, 1961.
—“From Porter,” no obstruction

Lincoln, Victoria. A Private Disgrace: Lizzie Borden by Daylight. New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1967. Rpt. NY: International Polygonics, 1986.
—“From Porter,” no obstruction

de Mille, Agnes. Lizzie Borden: A Dance of Death. Boston: Little, Brown and Co., 1968.
—States “…as exhibited in the trial. Courtesy of Mrs Dwight Waring”- no obstruction

*Sullivan, Robert. Goodbye Lizzie Borden. Brattleboro, VT: Stephen Greene Press, 1974.As the only jurist ever to write a full-length book on the Borden case, Sullivan provides a unique examination of the facts and legal aspects of the case. Use of the condensed version of Lizzie's inquest testimony that appeared in the Providence Journal when the entire testimony was available in the New Bedford Evening Standard, however, shows Sullivan's bias towards Lizzie's guilt.
—States “Carroll after Porter”, first to use obstruction

Spiering, Frank, Lizzie: The Story of Lizzie Borden. NY: Random House, 1984.
—Looks like Carroll’s art work floorplan, gives no attribution, but does not show obstruction

Brown, Arnold R. Lizzie Borden: The Legend, the Truth, the Final Chapter. Nashville, TN: Rutledge Hill Press, 1991.
—Shows obstruction and states “Courtesy Anna Brown based on trial exhibits”

Kent, David. Forty Whacks: New Evidence in the Life and Legend of Lizzie Borden. Emmaus, PA: Yankee Books, 1992.
—He shows obstruction but states the plan was “drawn by the author”

Arnold, Muriel. Lizzie Borden: Pictorial and Historical - The Hands of Time. Nashua, NH: Tri Flag Press, 1999.
—She attributed artwork to her very talented niece, Elaine Alves, and no obstruction

Masterton, William L. Lizzie Didn't Do It! Boston: Brandon Pub., 2000.
—He uses Sullivan with obstruction

*Martins, Michael and Binette, Dennis. Parallel Lives: A Social History of Lizzie A. Borden and Her Fall River. Fall River Historical Society, 2010. (Pg 144 Floor plans 'by Thomas Kieran, civil engineer, 1892.” Trial exhibits)
—see picture provided— no obstruction

[Kat]

I guess it would help to show the pages of Sullivan we’ve been referring to here.
All the pencil marks are from the last century, by moi
I had a similar curiosity as member reasonwhy.

[Kat]

Maybe it had to do with this topic? *Was Lizzie a Thief?*
But Sullivan wouldn’t know anymore than we know. And not anymore than the previous authors who eschewed the barrier in their floorplans and also counteracting the testimony.

[camgarsky4]

Case closed.

Thanks for adding Sullivan's floor plans. I think one of you mentioned this earlier in the thread, but the only Charles Carroll my digging around could find was the signer of the Declaration of Independence.

p.s. Editor request....can we add the "shrug" emoji to our options?!

[Kat]

I admit I had an ulterior motive by adding all the citations here in their correct form. It is useful to have them for copy-pasting in future in posts that need citing.

[Reasonwhy]

Kat, you continue to earn all of our respect with your research, proper citations, and insistence upon tracking down fact before opining. You are a model to every poster of what to do, and how to do it.

[Kat]

Thank you! I wondered where you were

[Lraym]

Kleptomaniac. All have heard the stories of Lizzie stealing from merchants in Fall River and Andrew covering the cost. My wife’s grandfather Elis Gifford, the owner of Gifford’s on Main Street. A jewelry store. He told us that this was true, and Lizzie had “visited” his store and “lifted” jewelry, which Andrew paid for.

[camgarsky4]

Welcome to the forum Lraym! Thanks for sharing the family story.

Looks like "Ellis" was a popular given name for your wife's branch of the Gifford's of Fall River. Charles E. Gifford was likely running the family jewelry store in 1892, he died in 1895 at the age of 53. But his son was named Ellis and his father was Ellis. Pretty safe guess that "E." as a middle initial = Ellis.

All were in the jewelry store biz. Do any of the family remain in Fall River?

If you've got more 'intel' on the family's interactions or impressions with the Borden's, please share!!

[Lraym]

None of the Gifford’s remain in Fall River. Ellis had two children, a daughter (no offspring) and son (4 daughters). After the jewelry store burned down for the second time, Ellis went into the insurance business. The house on Maple Street still has the Gifford Jewelry store safe in the basement. Tired to buy it from the residents, but they refused.
All the Gifford’s are in the Oake Shade Cemetery in the Beattie plot, the father of Mary Beattie Gifford. Mary was the Curator of the Fall River Historical Society for years.
She, as well as her father, thought Lizzie got away with murder.

[Lraym]

As for Lizzie...my research/opinions says psychogenic amnesia. Much longer story behind it.She realized she must have done in the court when she “swooned”, but recovered, returning to silent denial. IMO

[camgarsky4]

Might this be referencing "your" safe?!

Screenshot 2023-11-29 090142.png

Screenshot 2023-11-29 085027.png

[Kat]

Hola, Lraym! We are getting back on topic!
And thanks for news items camgarsky, always welcome research.

I collected together the items Rebello included on the Giffords in his reference book.
Just to add them here:

Lizzie Borden Past & Present , Leonard Rebello, Al-Zach Press, Fall River, MA 1999

Pg 332
Note: Listed below is a description of jewelry owned by Lizzie.
In 1900, Lizzie purchased a ring set with three sapphires and two diamonds for $169.00.

Between 1899-1905, Lizzie purchased four rings set with diamonds for a total of $1,545.00.

Source: Diamond Record Book of Gifford Jewelry Store in Fall River, Massachusetts, Fall River Historical Society Archives.

—Apparently the FRHS has the business records of Giffords store- maybe through Mary? I wonder, wouldn’t there be information in the records of Lizzie potentially shoplifting, and if she did, would she go back and buy her jewelry there?

…………..
Pg. 485

"Should Fall River Claim Fame or Shame for Lizzie," New Bedford Standard-Times, July 26, 1981: 4.

"This is such a nice city, I would hate it to be known as the city that produced Lizzie
Borden." (Mrs. Florence Brigham, Director of the Fall River Historical Society)

"I wish that girl had never been born." (Mrs. Ellis Gifford, former Director of the Fall River Historical Society, according to Mrs. Florence Brigham.)

—I have always remembered this quote, but only now notice it is Mrs. Brigham supposedly quoting Mrs. Gifford. We know Fall River was tired of being known for Lizzie Borden.

------------------------

Pg 500
"Lizzie Borden: Did She Do It?" Hartford Courant, Hartford, CT, August 16, 1971: 2.

Interview with eighty-five year old Mrs. Ellis Gifford, curator of the Fall River Historical Society, recalled Lizzie as a kleptomaniac. She knew Lizzie but didn't like her much. Mrs. Gifford said, "She [Lizzie] wasn't ostracized, but, she was ignored ... people didn't mingle with her." Mrs. Gifford's husband owned Gifford's Jewelry Store in Fall River. He watched Lizzie "very carefully" when she came to the store. Mrs. Gifford went on to state that "the clerks would watch her carefully if my husband was busy. She had plenty of money to buy everything she wanted. It was a compulsion." Mrs. Gifford believed Lizzie murdered her parents. She said, "Nobody thought about it [Borden murders] once it was over. It was only when people came in and started to write books about it that anybody got interested in it."

——I do understand that at the time, there was a surge of commercialism, and ladies who may have felt “entitled” (or for other motives- like just the thrill of it) were almost compulsively drawn to kleptomania and it was becoming a fad and/or a nuisance.

------------------------

Pg 502
Stebbins, Meredith, "Borden Family Mixups Keep Staff, Busy," Fall River Herald News, August 9, 1968: 12.

Richard Borden is oftentimes confused with Andrew J. Borden, by visitors to the Fall
River Historical Society, according to Mrs. Gifford, curator.

Mrs. Gifford also explained the society received Lizzie's ironing board from the Borden
home on Second Street. It was given to Lizzie's coachman, Ernest Terry, and used by
his wife until her death. It was then given to his sister-in-law. The ironing board was presented to the Fall River Historical Society by a donor.

[Kat]

It might be something we can actually check- that’s not usual, so looking forward to the Spring when maybe we can find out. That’s exciting! Thanks for your perspective, Lraym.
Do you know how Mrs. Gifford became Curator of The Historical Society?
And did you grow up in Fall River?
Yr theory of psychogenic amnesia is one term I’ve not heard, and I didn’t Google it so wondered if you will describe it?

[Reasonwhy]

As for Lizzie...my research/opinions says psychogenic amnesia. Much longer story behind it.She realized she must have done in the court when she “swooned”, but recovered, returning to silent denial. IMO

Hello, Lraym! Can you tell us more about your research/opinion of psychogenic amnesia? I am so intrigued by this idea, especially when you say, “Much longer story behind it.” Please give us details. I think this idea, that Lizzie committed the crimes, but was distanced from the acts, is part of the huge appeal of Victoria Lincoln’s “A Private Disgrace.” Her conclusion of “brownouts” caused by epilepsy does sound different from the bit I learned from my brief look-up of psychogenic amnesia yesterday, but theories about both states show attempts to understand how Lizzie may have brutally killed without being fully aware. I am really hoping you will let us know more of your thinking!

[camgarsky4]

Lraym - not sure if you are still reading the forum, but found this 1910 article and photo about the Gifford jewelry store. Thought you might enjoy.

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click on the image to enlarge for reading.

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[camgarsky4]

Good morning!

Wasn't sure where to add this photo. Most are probably familiar with square nails, but just in case, below is a pic of square nails from my former home which was built in 1905. This is very likely the type of nail which Lizzie told the police she found in the elder Borden's bedroom door lock at the time of the 1891 home 'burglary'. As you can see, a square nail would be much more conducive to picking a lock that our round nails of today.

Captain Desmond's report to DA Knowlton
Source: Knowlton Papers Page 74-75. partial extract
....I did get a 6 or 8 penny nail which "Lizzie Borden said she found in the Key hole of door," leading to a sleeping room on 2nd floor......

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