What if Lizzie had succeeded in buying prussic acid?

[PossumPie]

Hello, I've been lurking for days and devouring many long threads. This might have been asked somewhere already, but I haven't come across it yet.

I think Lizzie did it, but I keep going back and forth between her being a very sly genius or a complete moron who only got away with it via sheer dumb luck.

One major reason I think she got away with it is BECAUSE she used a hatchet. Nobody wanted to believe a woman was capable of such a gruesome crime. But what if she had succeeded in poisoning them to death instead? Wouldn't they have easily believed her capable of that sort of crime since its a more "feminine" method of killing someone? Even if prussic acid or some other poison wasn't detected in their stomachs, if two people suddenly drop dead, wouldn't the police still expect foul play anyway and launch an investigation? It would be soooo easy to find out Lizzie had purchased prussic acid the day before. It just seems incredibly sloppy and stupid.
Being denied the prussic acid, and having to resort to the hatchet method instead, is actually what saved her butt.

Did Lizzie not really care if they caught her? Maybe the goal was to kill Abbey (and possibly her father) at ANY cost? Even if it meant she herself was executed for it? She was cool as cucumber when they told her she was the primary suspect. Maybe it was a "I'll try not to get caught, but if I do, so what?" Maybe it was much more about revenge than money, and if she happened to survive, then the money was the icing on the cake.

Someone else posted here that they don't think Lizzie thought through the order of inheritance at all, she just got lucky that Abbey died first. Because if she had used the poison method, it would have been much harder to control the order of deaths. Andrew got sick too. So it doesn't seem like she was ONLY trying to kill Abbey and not Andrew.

Welcome Crystalized to the forum!

I agree with you that women tended to use less messy ways of killing such as poison. According to the FBI, poison is rarely used today, but even in modern times, women are seven times as likely as men to choose poison as their murder weapon. I also agree that if the Bordens both died of poisoning out of the blue, Lizzie would have still been suspect. I think that is why she was talking around that someone was trying to poison her family--then when they died of poison she could say "see! I tried to tell you!" She still would have been suspect but perhaps she thought she could outsmart the police.

I'm certain Lizzie did NOT wish to be caught, her love of the finer things was stronger than her hatred of Abby. I have not seen any evidence that Abby treated the girls badly, witnesses said that she tried to be friendly with them. I believe that their despise of her was strictly from a financial standpoint. Lastly, I used to be a firm believer that Lizzie planned Abby to die first for the order of inheritance to go to them, but I'm not so sure about that one. That kind of legal nit-picking may have been beyond her thoughts. Abby's family ended up getting a chunk of the money anyway--just not a big chunk. Most of the "Lizzie was innocent" folks argue from incredulity ("I can't believe a middle-aged women could kill her father") or from the legal side (lack of overwhelming evidence of guilt). I must agree that if I were on the jury, I would have had to aquit as the prosecution and police did a lukewarm job of proving her guilt. I believe she had Motive-Means-and Opportunity, but not legal proof that she did it.

[camgarsky4]

Welcome Crystalized! I'll keep my fingers crossed that you will hang with us for a lengthy spell and add some new spice to our 'debates'.

My opinion:
I don't think Lizzie was 'so dumb she was lucky' or that she was a brilliant scheming murderess. In my opinion she was an extreme narcissist who lacked much, if any, empathy. She felt fully entitled to the family wealth and, and around that time, something was stirring with Andrew's estate that made Lizzie concerned that it would actually be coming her way intact. Over the years she had become emotionally detached from Andrew and held Abby in disdain/disregard. I view the word 'hatred' as giving Abby more existential value than Lizzie felt towards her.

Place that profile into an 1892 brain void of crime detection or legal awareness/knowledge. Agree with Possum that Lizzie probably assumed no one would suspect her if other's shared her concern for the family safety (Bowen, Russell, Churchill), she wasn't in the murder rooms (barn loft), and no murder weapon on the premises (Crown barn roof). She thought this probably for the very reason she was found not guilty. A good citizen, upper income, Christian lady would never slaughter her parents.

Maybe 'she was so naive and bull headed/determined, that she was lucky' might fit as a better description. At least that is how I view the pre-murder landscape inside Lizzie's mind.

On the 'emotional detachment from Andrew' theme, keep in mind that she did the exact same thing with Emma years later. She was able to stay permanently estranged from her sister for the final 20 years of their lives. Same scenario with several of her closer friend relationships. If you have the chance, the book "Parallel Lives" provides a lot of great insights and details about Lizzies post-trial life.

Many of us on the forum state our opinions pretty strongly, but you should always feel comfortable pushing back when you don't agree. Different points of view is what makes it interesting and causes us to challenge our existing viewpoints.

Keep it coming!!

[Steve887788]

If she succeeded to buy a controlled poison and for no reason her parents just happened to die from poison the next day. I think even the Fall River police would have cracked this case, maybe.

[PossumPie]

If she succeeded to buy a controlled poison and for no reason her parents just happened to die from poison the next day. I think even the Fall River police would have cracked this case, maybe.

Steve, I know you believe her innocent, do yo believe that even if innocent of the hatchet murders, she did attempt to purchase poison? The druggist swore he saw and interacted with her Wednesday. After the murders he remembered her trying to buy the poison and told the police, he was taken to her home and pointed her out as the woman who tried to purchase the prussic acid, he remembered specifically she wanted it for cleaning a seal fur (which is strange enough to stick in his memory), she indeed did have seal furs:

LIZZIE INQUEST TESTIMONY
Q. Have you sealskin sacks?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where are they?
A. Hanging in a large white bag in the attic, each one separate.
Q. Put away for the summer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you ever use prussic acid on your sacks?
A. Acid? No, sir; I don't use anything on them.

DRUGGIST BENCE INQEST TESTIMONY
A. This party came in there, and inquired if I kept prussic acid. They came in, and the second clerk went towards them to wait on them. I was standing out there, I walked in ahead. She asked me if we kept prussic acid. I informed her that we did.
Q. What happened then?
A. She asked me if she could buy ten cents worth of me. I informed her we did not sell prussic acid, unless by a physician's prescription. She then said that she had bought this several times, I think; I think she said several times before. I says "well my good lady, it is something we dont sell unless by a prescription from the doctor, as it is a very dangerous thing to handle." She then walked around, and went out, turned right around.
Q. Did she say what she wanted it for?
A. I understood her to say she wanted it to put on the edge of a seal skin cape, if I remember rightly.

FREDERICK B. HARTE PRELIM.HEARING TESTIMONY
Q. What is your name?
A. Frederick B. Harte
Q. What is your business?
A. Drug clerk.
Q. For Smith?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is on the corner of So. Main and Columbia streets?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Is that the same store Mr. Bence is employed in?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were you there, employed, on Wednesday August third?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Previous to that day, did you know Miss Borden?
A. No Sir.
Q. Not even by sight?
A. No Sir.
Q. Do you remember of seeing her on that day?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What time of day was it?
A. Between ten and half past eleven Wednesday morning.
...
Q. Tell exactly what you saw and heard.
A. A woman came in, and asked for prussic acid, ten cents worth, and said she wanted it to put on seal skin, I do not know whether it
was a cape or sack, but it was a seal skin garment of some sort, to put around the edges, she said.
Q. Tell all you heard.
A. It was refused her.
Q. You must tell what was said. In what way was the refusal given?
A. She was told it never was sold, except on a prescription.
Q. Who told her that?
A. Bence. Nothing more was said that I know of; and she turned away and went out.
Q. Did she speak to you at any time?
A. No Sir.
Q. Or come towards you, or anything?
A. Pretty close to me.
Q. How far were you from her?
A. Not over two or three feet at the most.
Q. Have you seen this defendant since then?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Is that the woman?
A. Yes Sir.

This was hot summertime. Someone asks for poison to put on the edge of sealskin which is bizarre as there is no purpose in doing this. Druggist Bence remembers this bizarre exchange. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable, point to a person and ask if that is the suspect, many people will say yes. BUT the whole strangeness of wanting poison to clean a sealskin cape or sack in the middle of summer when there is no precedent for using it that way stuck in people's minds. Low and behold Lizzie had been talking to people about fear her family was being poisoned AND Lizzie owned sealskin garments.

[camgarsky4]

Similar to the notion that folks in 1892 likely understood very little about police procedures or pulling off a sophisticated crime, would the average naive person anticipate the police removing a dead person's stomach and testing it for a foreign substance? Maybe yes, maybe no.

Potential headlines for the situation:
1) Knowlton appears to have felt that Lizzie attempted to purchase prussic acid in New Bedford 1 1/2 weeks before the murders.
2) Lizzie felt an urgency to dispatch the Borden's week of August 4th. I believe due to elder Borden's plan to go to Swansea.
3) Based on their noted illness, Lizzie may have poisoned the elder Borden's Tuesday with a lessor and ineffective poison.
4) Sticking with the poison idea, the lessor poison failing, and Lizzie feeling a time crunch, she circled back to Prussic acid in desperation.
5) I don't think Lizzie planned to go to a local pharmacy until she sat down at the 9amish Wed Aug 3 breakfast table and saw it was clear Andrew and Abby weren't in the throes of death.
6) Failure to acquire prussic acid AGAIN, resulted in the hatchet as the fall back murder weapon. Again a hasty decision based on the current and evolving situation.

Looking thru our 130 year old rearview mirrors, perhaps we sometimes forget that many of the decisions and actions that week were spontaneous and reactionary movements made in the spur of the moment under very stressful conditions. They were not decisions made after sitting in front of a laptop, stewing on and then applying 2021 logic, knowledge and common sense.

Whatever was fueling the intent to murder (inheritance at risk?) and the urgency to act (Borden's out of town travel plans? Approaching estate changes), may have combined to drive Lizzie to take a riskier, more transparent set of tactics......like visiting G.R. Smith's pharmacy and then choosing a horrible method of killing, like using a hatchet.

Lizzie's own defense attorney (Phillips), in his book published years after the murders, notes that Lizzie "had sought to purchase it for innocent purposes." You'll find this on page 3 of the book which can be found in the Primary Documents section on the Lizzie Borden Virtual Library website. He doesn't say, " she never went there".

[PossumPie]

We can look back on other crimes of the 1800s to get an idea of what killers thought their chances of being caught were:

1893 Louise Vermilya Believed to have poisoned seven relatives and two boarders with arsenic in Chicago for economic gain
1888 Johann Otto Hoch German con man who married women under false identities, swindled and poisoned them with arsenic, suspected to have committed between 15 and 55 murders.
1880 Maria Swanenburg Killed at least 27 people by poisoning with arsenic, suspected of over 90 deaths. She murdered for the victims' insurance or inheritance.

Just a few, all with poison. Many were to collect their victim's insurance money or inheritance. Ok, yes, they were EVENTUALLY caught after several years of killing, but you would THINK that after the 4th relative or boarder who died by poison, the police would scratch their heads...I come from a family of law enforcement officers and believe me, even today, many of the times that they catch a killer it is because of the killers gross stupidity NOT the police's acumen or intelligence.

I believe that if Lizzie had gotten the poison without any problem, if she poisoned them, she would have produced Dr. Bowen and Mrs. Churchill to collaborate her story that "someone" was trying to poison them and succeeded. She planted (and Abby unknowingly planted) the idea of a poisoner the day before their deaths. It is probable that the police would go looking for a disgruntled acquaintance of Andrews and not spent much time suspecting Lizzie. Heck, the "partial poisoning" on Wednesday may have been part of the plan, everyone could see that the family was in danger, including Lizzie who purported to be sick as well. After all, a Sunday school teacher and middle-aged woman doesn't murder...

[Steve887788]

Steve, I know you believe her innocent, do yo believe that even if innocent of the hatchet murders, she did attempt to purchase poison?

Outside of the fact that the police violated Miss Borden's 4th Amendment right by leading Mr. Bence to a house to verify if she tried to buy a poison to clean a sealskin cape the day before her parents with murdered with a hatchet ? ......seem reasonable...

PA wasn't the only poison around - She could have easily purchased rat poison or another poisons that might do the trick, IDK - but they say that she wanted 10 cents worth of PA - Either she doesn't know how volatile that liquid is or she chose the dumbest method in the world to clean her cape.

As for her being innocent. My personal belief is that this horrific crime was committed right under the nose of the Fall River police in broad daylight. That has has to be demoralizing and embarrassing esp, when most of the department was out attending a party / outing of some kind. The the whole city wanted answers. The Fall River police had nothing , they were desperate. And I've said this before but the Mayor was under pressure who in turn had to put pressure on the Marshall to find A killer fast. Maybe they figure due to the fact that she stopped calling her step mother :mother and called her Mis Borden 5 years ago could point to her guilt. Or maybe that Abby Borden was killed first, and you have that inheritance motive ? or maybe it was just easier to commit a murder when one victim was already out of the house ?

Mr. Bence was a druggist who saw people come and go in his store everyday. Then when the police actually brought him to her house, they must have done that for a reason - right ? Mr.Bence does not look like the type that would be intimidated or have a decision swayed by the Fall River police department... https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/112998383/eli-bence

Soooooooo. now let's take another look at those hatchets men !

[PossumPie]

Steve, I know you believe her innocent, do yo believe that even if innocent of the hatchet murders, she did attempt to purchase poison?

Outside of the fact that the police violated Miss Borden's 4th Amendment right by leading Mr. Bence to a house to verify if she tried to buy a poison to clean a sealskin cape the day before her parents with murdered with a hatchet ? ......seem reasonable...

PA wasn't the only poison around - She could have easily purchased rat poison or another poisons that might do the trick, IDK - but they say that she wanted 10 cents worth of PA - Either she doesn't know how volatile that liquid is or she chose the dumbest method in the world to clean her cape.

As for her being innocent. My personal belief is that this horrific crime was committed right under the nose of the Fall River police in broad daylight. That has has to be demoralizing and embarrassing esp, when most of the department was out attending a party / outing of some kind. The the whole city wanted answers. The Fall River police had nothing , they were desperate. And I've said this before but the Mayor was under pressure who in turn had to put pressure on the Marshall to find A killer fast. Maybe they figure due to the fact that she stopped calling her step mother :mother and called her Mis Borden 5 years ago could point to her guilt. Or maybe that Abby Borden was killed first, and you have that inheritance motive ? or maybe it was just easier to commit a murder when one victim was already out of the house ?

Mr. Bence was a druggist who saw people come and go in his store everyday. Then when the police actually brought him to her house, they must have done that for a reason - right ? Mr.Bence does not look like the type that would be intimidated or have a decision swayed by the Fall River police department... https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/112998383/eli-bence

Soooooooo. now let's take another look at those hatchets men !

It's easy to see your incredible hostility towards law enforcement. I agree that they screwed things up but if you read my post closely you will see that while LEO bumbled a lot about the poison angle, The mention of sealskin cape/sack and the fact that Lizzie had sealskin furs is interesting.
BTW, since neither you nor I know if the LEOs asked the Borden's permission to come in to their home, we have NO way to know if 4th amendment was violated. If you are dumb enough to invite police in, that's on you.

[Steve887788]

In the preliminary testimony ; re-cross by Mr. Adams, Mr. Bence remembers first seeing her in the kitchen , he speaks about going into an ally way and into a room. I suppose that was the kitchen, but it did not say weather they knocked and she let them in or they just walked in. She was talking to Mr. Harrington while Mr. Bence was in the doorway. Then I believe later she walked toward him ? IDK - it did not say exactly who went where.

The police were in and out of that house for days and there was no objection by any of the people that lived in the house.

A good part of the Prelim with Mr. Bence as to , was she wearing gloves / bonnet / hat and many many other questions that Mr. Bence had plenty of I can't recall answers.

Did Lizzie know that a potential witness for the prosecution was in fact standing just feet away ? Was she aware that the questions that were being asked were for Mr. Bence to hear her voice ? Pretty desperate that people that were hired to protect the public had to resort to this tactic.

Actually this being a drug store - why did Mr. Bence tell the woman that this will not clean seal skin. I realize that they might not know because they do not deal in skins or furs. Because they might have had a suggestion or at least point her in the right direction to a furrier ? A responsible drug clerk would have told the woman that the slightest whiff would kill a person, sounds like they didn't and let the woman leave, perhaps to find a druggist that would sell the deadly poison.

[camgarsky4]

Wow....poor Fall River was cursed with incompetent police, a corrupt mayor and druggists who weren't customer service oriented. Wonder if this town had quality personnel anywhere?!

Funny thing is that neither the police nor the mayor authorized the arrest. It was the district attorney. But maybe he was also worried about the violent mob roaming the streets of Fall River causing mayhem even though he didn't live in Fall River.

Of course, on the flip side, common sense would tell most folks that Morse or Bridget would have been arrested if a quick scapegoat was necessary. The police followed Morse all over town for several days after the murders, can't believe the mayor just didn't tell them to grab him since he was so willing to circumvent justice. And of course, little 'ole Bridget was a poor Irish immigrant. She would have a been a super easy arrest target. But no, for reasons that I'd like someone to explain, the police/mayor/district attorney and local druggist union conspired to go after an upper class, church going lady.

Steve887788 - you put a lot of your focus on a 1934 reference to Morse's detailed alibi, police competence, Bence not looking like a brawler, 4th amendment rights and a mob roaming Fall River.

Setting those stimulating topics aside, do you have any theories or fresh ideas to share that might shed some light on whomever and however the Borden's were killed?

[Steve887788]

To move off the topic and shift into - the who done it mode ? I would need some evidence - just a shred. But unfortunately nothing comes to mind.
I suppose that is why this particular case is so famous - nobody knows.

And yes the Mayor did notify Lizzie that she was a suspect that Saturday night fundamentally arresting her. Maybe not officially.
No mob was roaming the streets - they were just outside by the thousands at one point.

Now getting back to Bence and PA sale. - Was it her ? He noticed many people that day even his own sister and stated that she MAY have purchased something.

The Lizzie Borden Quarterly Volume VIII, Number 3, July, 2001 - Page 18.
Questions: Was there any past history between Harrington and
Lizzie, perhaps going back to high school? Did
Harrington possibly have a motive for demeaning
Lizzie as he did, other than just getting at the truth?
Why was it not considered significant that his own
mother lived close by?

Fact: It was Harrington who had Eli Bence come to the
house, an hour or two after sunset, to identify Lizzie
as the person who had tried to buy ten cents worth
of prussic acid. 40
Questions: Did Harrington not know the importance of a line-
up under controlled circumstances for identifying
someone, especially a person supposedly guilty of a
serious crime? Or did he have a reason for wanting
to reinforce the believability of Lizzie's guilt?

[PossumPie]

Steve, you will have the upper hand in EVERY discussion about Lizzie's guilt/innocence since we already have a verdict. You indeed will come out on top in every post that hypothesizes about whether or not she "did it" because over 100 years later we still don't have proof sufficient to convict. I find that each knot in the rope to hang her, taken alone, is weak. Put all of them together and they become more compelling.

My VERY strong belief is that guilty/not guilty has nothing to do with if a person committed a crime and everything to do with how good the police/prosecution are at setting a case up and how good a lawyer is at tearing it down. There are many innocent people in jail and many criminals roaming the streets because of those two variables.

[camgarsky4]

Steve887788 -- I have truly tried to engage in legitimate responses to you over the past year. But my assumption is that you aren't interested in truly recreating to your satisfaction what happened that week in Fall River.

The mayor was wrong to tell Lizzie she was a suspect on Saturday and that error was to Lizzie's ADVANTAGE!! She was able to destroy physical evidence.

There were THREE witnesses at the pharmacy. Also if you took a little time to research deeper, perhaps you would find that the visit to the pharmacy has ZERO reasons to not believe it happened. If you look closely enough there is physical evidence beyond the testimonies.

You haven't taken the time to properly read what is posted. I asked if you had any fresh new ideas! What do YOU think happened? I presume you believe it wasn't Lizzie. Fine. Tell us a person and scenario on how it happened.

You frustrate the heck out of me and I'm sure I do the same to you. So I will do us both a favor and block your posts from my view. That way I won't waste my time responding to you and reduce the frustration level for both of us.

[Steve887788]

[Steve887788]

To answer your question - Abby Borden would have finished making the bed in the guest chamber and Andrew would have gotten up from his nap just in time for dinner.

[Steve887788]

She was able to destroy physical evidence.

The only evidence that I could think of was the dress that was not hidden - and burned 3 days later and testified by Alice Russell that she did not see any blood on the dress. Then I would say no that is not evidence - it was only a dress that was burned in an already lit stove during the day with the police on her property that had open window access to the house with her sister testifying to get rid of the dress and a friend watching.

[camgarsky4]

Possum - what legitimate needs could a customer view arsenic and prussic acid as interchangeable?

Jennings Journals. Pg 210
Fall River Daily Herald, August 6, 1892
"Martel, a clerk for Philias Martel, a druggist on Pleasant street, relates the following story: Last Monday he was approached in the store by a young lady, who wanted to buy arsenic from him and was willing to give any price for it. The clerk told her that as the druggist was not present he could not possibly comply with her wishes, whereupon she went out, much disappointed.
She returned 20 minutes later and asked for prussic acid. The article was again refused her, with the advice to return when the druggist would be back from dinner. Mr. Martel describes the caller as being about 26 years and weighing about 150 pounds. He said he could recognize her if he should see her."

[PossumPie]

Possum - what legitimate needs could a customer view arsenic and prussic acid as interchangeable?

Jennings Journals. Pg 210
Fall River Daily Herald, August 6, 1892
"Martel, a clerk for Philias Martel, a druggist on Pleasant street, relates the following story: Last Monday he was approached in the store by a young lady, who wanted to buy arsenic from him and was willing to give any price for it. The clerk told her that as the druggist was not present he could not possibly comply with her wishes, whereupon she went out, much disappointed.
She returned 20 minutes later and asked for prussic acid. The article was again refused her, with the advice to return when the druggist would be back from dinner. Mr. Martel describes the caller as being about 26 years and weighing about 150 pounds. He said he could recognize her if he should see her."

I believe it was suggested that a woman was going around town asking for poison to try to trap pharmacists into selling it without a license. I can't verify it without looking back through all of my papers.
One could ask for generic poison to kill pests, or arsenic to treat syphilis or cancer. Prussic Acid was used in the 1800s for medical treatments, but it was very much diluted and not sold in a concentrated form. There is/was no medical reason to ask for either arsenic or prussic acid because they were used for different disorders. I have access to most medical journals going back to 1800. The vast majority of articles talk of prussic acid with regard to poisoning people, cattle, or suicide. There are a few (British Medical Journal, 1873-05, Vol.1 (648), p.610-611) that talk of it's medical use in very dilute forms for things such as delirium tremens.

The only reason you'd ask for poison and not care which poison would be to kill something/someone. Rats, mice, moths, bugs, cats, dogs, people.

[Steve887788]

I believe it was suggested that a woman was going around town asking for poison to try to trap pharmacists into selling it without a license. I can't verify it without looking back through all of my papers.

There is a newspaper article that I posted when the the I asked the question - Did Lizzie Buy Prussic Acid - viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6340&start=50
There is a newspaper article on the last page all about the person that was going around town to see if druggists were breaking the law.

BTW - The woman that McCaffery employed was not as large as Lizzie B. But nobody knows weather the this woman was connected to the Martel story.

[Reasonwhy]

“…Heck, the "partial poisoning" on Wednesday may have been part of the plan, everyone could see that the family was in danger, including Lizzie who purported to be sick as well….

—partial post, PossumPie

I think you may be on to something here, Possum. Most here seem to think it established that Lizzie tried to buy the prussic acid; certainly Knowlton had lined up several witnesses willing to swear to it. But there are still gray areas as to what use she planned to put it toward:
1. Timing of any poison’s fatal effects would have been much harder to control, if Lizzie planned for it to be fatal. In that case, she would not have been able to be certain Abbey would die first, and the sisters might not inherit the whole estate.
2. Some have also suggested a poisoner is not a hatcheteer, so if Lizzie poisoned, or planned to, this logic would require a different killer as hatcheteer.
3. Logistical difficulties presented themselves late (Wed. afternoon), if Lizzie intended the prussic acid to be fatal, and had to switch to the hatchet after her final futile drugstore trip late Wed. morning. (Of course, this is not a problem if Lizzie had always planned, herself, to murder via hatchet, if alternate means became necessary; but, please see #2.) Did she need to suddenly acquire a hatcheteer that evening? If she already had one lined up as back-up, why use any poison at all given that its acquisition could expose her?

Your supposition may answer that question, Possum. Perhaps all use of arsenic, prussic acid, or any other poison was only intended to gin up suspicion of family “enemies.” Recall that there had been several accounts in papers and magazines of local cases of arsenic poisoning in food, which had sickened many and killed some. (I will look for that documentation). Poisoning was in the news, and on the minds of many in the area. I believe this is what put it into Lizzie’s mind. It may be that it was only ever intended by Lizzie to be used to add credence to her tales of a “bogeyman,” and not actually to fatally kill.

[camgarsky4]

Reason -- if the poisoning was a ruse and a stage setting ploy, then Lizzie knew it had worked Wednesday morning when she learned that Abby had visited Bowen and Bowen visited the Borden's. However, she still (in my opinion) attempted to purchase prussic acid after learning all this. Why?

Of course, that could be answered simply if Lizzie did not visit D.R. Smith's pharmacy Wednesday morning.

[Reasonwhy]

But I believe she did visit there, too, so your question is an excellent one. Perhaps she believed more serious symptoms were needed because Bowen had pooh-poohed Abby’s fears of poison?

[Reasonwhy]

Here is what I’ve so far found on the poisonings in the area (this was posted by you, Kat, years ago):

Kat wrote: ↑
“…As for what was going on in the wider world at the time, in the Evening Standard, Aug. 4th, there was at least one case of mass arsenical poisoning in a restaurant reported, and continued to be reported whilst it was being investigated (out of Haverhill). Arsenic was found to be in the pepper- where anyone could have used it and die a horrible death. More than one did die.…”

[Reasonwhy]

download/file.php?id=1743&mode=view

Above is one article, posted previously by Kat. Here are her comments at that time:

“Here are 2 items on arsenic poisoning in the New Bedford Evening Standard of Aug. 4 & 5, in Massachusetts. They are related to the same case, at Salisbury Beach.”

See next post by me for the second article Kat found.

[Reasonwhy]

download/file.php?id=1744&mode=view

Kat’s comment, writing of this in 2007, was that it was “A Fatal Dinner!”

Kat, did you have any notion then that your posts would still be aiding sleuthers fourteen years later? (And may still be helping them 100 years from now…)

[Reasonwhy]

Please forgive so many postings in a row.

In the thread, “Why was Abby afraid of poison?” are a number of longer articles about these poisoning cases, which occurred in July of 1892—so very recent to the murders. The former poster, KGDevil, found and posted these, along with some excellent reasoning about how these stories might have influenced Lizzie, Abby, and the rest.

[Kat]

I'm just impressed that Stef set up this Forum with such a good search feature!

[Reasonwhy]

To make it easier for folks to see KGDevil’s thinking, I’ve copied his first post from the “Why was Abby afraid of poison?” below:

KGDevil
Why was Abby afraid of poison?
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Post Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:48 pm

“I have always wondered what made Abby go to Dr. Bowen with a fear of being poisoned. In the summer months people got sick quite often because of the way food was stored and prepared. Why had Abby been so easily convinced that she had been poisoned? I do believe that Lizzie had made attempts to poison Andrew and Abby. But I had to wonder what made Abby suspicious. I was doing a little research and found an article about the deaths at Salisbury Beach in Haverhill, Massachusetts. It was widely covered in the news because I found articles about it in papers as far away as Colorado.

To summarize the case several guests ate a meal at the Cable House in Salisbury Beach in July 1892. Many of them got violently sick soon afterward and died. It remained unsolved at the time of the Borden murders, but the case was in the newspapers almost every day. It was speculated at first that it had been a batch of bad bluefish that may have been served. Then tainted water or canned goods. But as the victims kept dying it became apparent they had been poisoned. Their stomachs had been removed and sent away to check for signs of aresenic poisoning just prior to the day of the Borden murders.

If we believe the Borden family was as caught up in the case everyone else, it could explain a few things. This is just my theory. I have no way of getting proof of this so it is purely speculationm. But it could explain why Abby was so easily convinced she was poisoned by something she ate. Why Lizzie got antsy and tried to buy a more fast acting more untraceable poison (stomachs removed to check for poisons at Salisbury beach.) Why she eventually went the route of the hatchet. Everyone was obsessed with the stories of these poor people dying of poison, and here we have Abby shooting off her mouth about being poisoned.

The New York Times.

The Salisbury Beach Poisoning.

NEWBURYPORT, Mass., Aug. 19. -- Medical Examiner Snow this morning received a report on the result of the examination of the organs of the victims of the Salisbury Beach poisoning case from Prof. Hills of Harvard. The report states that the deaths were caused by paris green. The question now to be decided is, Was the poison administered with intent to kill..."

[PossumPie]

Wow, Reasonwhy, you've been busy!
Summer months before electric refrigeration could be cause for food poisoning. While people were ingenious about preserving foods, some food poisoning was inevitable. That is why while people laugh at endless menus of mutton in the Borden household, it was actually prudent to eat meat as quickly as possible not leave left-overs for too long. Having said that, people knew when they ate something suspect. I believe with the reports of various poisonings in the news, Andrew's rough treatment of others, and a step-daughter who didn't like her, Abby thought of poison before gastritis. Lizzie could have used the other poisonings as cover to do away with her family.
I don't believe she cared much about poison being untraceable, let the world know someone killed them by poison. There was a fiend on the lose killing people by poisoning their pepper shakers! I do hesitate a bit because it was incredibly stupid to try to buy poison the day before so close to home. While the evidence sure points to Lizzie, that was stupid. Go to the next town over, to a hardware store you've never visited, buy rat poison and bring it home. Much less risky.
Lastly, while serial killers do often have a favorite weapon and method, most killings are done by weapons at hand. Women did-in Victorian times- favor poison, strangulation, or suffocation for the lack of mess, but they were not beyond other more gruesome methods. Part of why the "Lizzie was innocent" side of the debate exists is people's incredulity that a woman could ax her father. "But she was a sweet Sunday School teacher! She would never..." Our preconceptions of killers is skewed. Ted Bundy was so successful because he was attractive, charming, and could talk a young teen into his VW before she realized he was dangerous. Imagine a 55 year old toothless grinning man trying to do the same thing. Some killers get away with it in part because they are charming.

[camgarsky4]

Regarding the Salisbury Beach episode, Kat's articles note the date in the news as Aug 4/5. KGDevil mentions July, but I don't see an actual article attached to the post.

Kat or Reason -- do we know when this big story became a big story that Lizzie might have noticed it? Aug 4 or sometime in July? That would (stating the obvious, sorry) make a huge difference whether this influenced anyone in the borden household.

[Reasonwhy]

Going to copy the articles KGDevil posted here in 2016. Several will appear in my next posts. Here is his comment for the first:

Re: Why was Abby afraid of poison?
Report Quote
Post by KGDevil » Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:58 pm

“These articles all appeared in the Boston Post and The Fitchburg Sentinel between the dates of July 23 and August 3, 1892.”

download/file.php?id=6768

[camgarsky4]

Since I think Lizzie attempted to purchase prussic acid in New Bedford on Saturday July 23rd, I am very interested in seeing when the Salisbury case occurred and hit the papers. To smoothly fit with my current theory of the timing of events, hoping you have an article that is dated pre-July 23rd.

I like your theory on this, so fingers crossed that the event happened slightly before the 23rd.

[Reasonwhy]

download/file.php?id=6771&mode=view

[Reasonwhy]

This article is dated June 26, 1892, Camgarsky. It does not mention suspicions or findings of poisoning yet, but if Lizzie and others read it, that suspicion may have formed in their minds. This could have started Lizzie thinking about poisoning. Moreover, remember we/KGDevil do not have copies of all of the articles in all of the publications that may have been discussing these alarming happenings, and that Fall River folks might have read and gossiped about to others. Seems to have generated quite a buzz, just judging from the articles we do have.

download/file.php?id=6772&mode=view

[Reasonwhy]

Boston Post July 29, 1892.

download/file.php?id=6773&mode=view

[Reasonwhy]

The Boston Post August 3, 1892. (KGDevil notes here that he’s sorry these are out of order.)

download/file.php?id=6775&mode=view

[camgarsky4]

Wow wow wow. Reason....this is great stuff!!

Based on these articles, the initial poisoning happened Wednesday July 20th, the day before the sisters headed off for New Bedford/Fairhaven. The earliest article is Friday July 22. So it could have influenced Lizzie's shopping activities the next day. I still wonder if we know for sure Lizzie didn't have other shopping opportunities. We know she dropped in on the Marion girls for a day, so it is a possibility she did a little shopping on her way to the train/carriage that took her to Marion.

Seems unlikely Lizzie & Emma would have planned the trip or split up on day one based on something that happened the day before. So best guess is that whatever drove the sisters out of town and subsequently choosing different places to stay was already decided before the Wednesday poisoning.

Reason, you may be onto something here, so lets banter this around a bit more.

[Reasonwhy]

This article is dated June 26, 1892, Camgarsky. It does not mention suspicions or findings of poisoning yet, but if Lizzie and others read it, that suspicion may have formed in their minds. This could have started Lizzie thinking about poisoning. Moreover, remember we/KGDevil do not have copies of all of the articles in all of the publications that may have been discussing these alarming happenings, and that Fall River folks might have read and gossiped about to others. Seems to have generated quite a buzz, just judging from the articles we do have.

download/file.php?id=6772&mode=view

Camgarsky, this article is dated almost one month before that, on June 26. In the article, it states that the dinner at Salisbury Beach had occurred the Wednesday previous to that. So, even more time for Lizzie to ponder and scheme…

[Reasonwhy]

For those who want to see these articles without clicking on my links, here is how to access KGDevil's thread/topic:

--Go to top right of any forum page.
--Click at the far right of the search button space, on the "settings" symbol. This takes you to the advanced search page.
--Look for "Search for keywords" at the top left of the page. In the white space to the right, type in the title of the thread/topic; here, "Why was Abby afraid of poisoning?" (If looking for keyword/s instead, one can type them here, also.***)
--Scroll to near the bottom of the page. Look for "Display results as" on the left.
--Click on the white circle on the right, "Topics."
--Finally, click on "search," at the very bottom of the page. This will take you to a page listing related topics. "Why was Abby afraid of poisoning?" is about 10 topics down.

***Say you wanted to see if other threads/topics contained anything about these arsenic poisonings. Just type in "Salisbury Beach arsenic" or similar words, and you will get a page listing relevant threads/topics.
Similarly, if you want to search for individual postings, just click on "Posts" instead of "Topics" in that white circle near the bottom. The first few lines of relevant posts will appear; then, at the bottom right of each post, you will be given the option to "jump to that post," which will give you the entire post positioned within the thread/topic in which it appeared.

[Reasonwhy]

Hello, I've been lurking for days and devouring many long threads. This might have been asked somewhere already, but I haven't come across it yet.

I think Lizzie did it, but I keep going back and forth between her being a very sly genius or a complete moron who only got away with it via sheer dumb luck.

One major reason I think she got away with it is BECAUSE she used a hatchet. Nobody wanted to believe a woman was capable of such a gruesome crime. But what if she had succeeded in poisoning them to death instead? Wouldn't they have easily believed her capable of that sort of crime since its a more "feminine" method of killing someone? Even if prussic acid or some other poison wasn't detected in their stomachs, if two people suddenly drop dead, wouldn't the police still expect foul play anyway and launch an investigation? It would be soooo easy to find out Lizzie had purchased prussic acid the day before. It just seems incredibly sloppy and stupid.
Being denied the prussic acid, and having to resort to the hatchet method instead, is actually what saved her butt.

Did Lizzie not really care if they caught her? Maybe the goal was to kill Abbey (and possibly her father) at ANY cost? Even if it meant she herself was executed for it? She was cool as cucumber when they told her she was the primary suspect. Maybe it was a "I'll try not to get caught, but if I do, so what?" Maybe it was much more about revenge than money, and if she happened to survive, then the money was the icing on the cake.

Someone else posted here that they don't think Lizzie thought through the order of inheritance at all, she just got lucky that Abbey died first. Because if she had used the poison method, it would have been much harder to control the order of deaths. Andrew got sick too. So it doesn't seem like she was ONLY trying to kill Abbey and not Andrew.

A belated welcome to the forum, crystalized! Nice substantive first post:) "One major reason I think she got away with it is BECAUSE she used a hatchet. Nobody wanted to believe a woman was capable of such a gruesome crime," you write. I have always wondered if Lizzie realized that, and if so, how much that perception played into (what I believe to be) her use of the hatchet. Was she that calculating?

[PossumPie]

Wow wow wow. Reason....this is great stuff!!

Based on these articles, the initial poisoning happened Wednesday July 20th, the day before the sisters headed off for New Bedford/Fairhaven. The earliest article is Friday July 22. So it could have influenced Lizzie's shopping activities the next day. I still wonder if we know for sure Lizzie didn't have other shopping opportunities. We know she dropped in on the Marion girls for a day, so it is a possibility she did a little shopping on her way to the train/carriage that took her to Marion.

Seems unlikely Lizzie & Emma would have planned the trip or split up on day one based on something that happened the day before. So best guess is that whatever drove the sisters out of town and subsequently choosing different places to stay was already decided before the Wednesday poisoning.

Reason, you may be onto something here, so lets banter this around a bit more.

It was stated that Lizzie was only "out on her own" during her trip one time, to purchase a dress pattern and material. I've argued that that could have also included a detour to get a hatchet or poison.

[camgarsky4]

Possum...totally agree and I think likely she DID attempt to purchase prussic acid in New Bedford.

She also went to Marion either on Monday or the following Saturday (something we need to debate/explore on a different thread) and I doubt Carrie Poole or Ms. Poole went with her. So I think she likely had other opportunities to do her thing alone even beyond saturday.

[camgarsky4]

Reason-- I've reread those articles carefully. Unless this same restaurant in Salisbury Beach had the exact same poisoning disaster in June and July AND the day of the week for both poisonings was a Wednesday, then I suspect the June 26 article is a typo and the date should have read "July, 26".

A date of July 26 would work for how that article would fit in with the others.

[Reasonwhy]

Re-read them all, and I believe you must be right about the typo, you old eagle-eye! Good on you for spotting that. Wish we knew of any other articles on these poisonings. Kat, we beseech you again as so often--have you any up your sleeve? Thanks for looking!

[camgarsky4]

Not sure what others skills I might possess, but years of editing papers before they went to press has 'blessed me' with a strange ability to catch typos. Not sure how to monetize that skill set.

I very much like the idea you have thrown out there....could the events of Wed July 20th have influenced Lizzie. My instinct is telling me yes, just need to stew on how these dates fit together to fully buy-in.

[Kat]

Re-read them all, and I believe you must be right about the typo, you old eagle-eye! Good on you for spotting that. Wish we knew of any other articles on these poisonings. Kat, we beseech you again as so often--have you any up your sleeve? Thanks for looking!

I first noticed the story by reading a small snippet in Did She or Didn't She, Aug 4, 1892.
Last night I Google searched and there were 2 newspapers, but they wanted me to join. Third result, for search "Salisbury Beach poisoning 1892" gave this Forum! And we're free!

[camgarsky4]

Kat -- I keep running into the same "join for $" and you'll be able to try and dig deeper in your research. Happened just yesterday when I tried to get a copy of the 1892 city directory. I needed to join something before I knew if they truly had what I wanted. So I exited the site.

[Kat]

2002 archives here:

Kat
2057 posts Feb-27th-02 4:46 AM


"Poison"

Lizzie Borden: A Case Book of Family and Crime in the 1890's,
Williams. Smithburn, Peterson-editors, 1980.

From the Fall River Daily Herald
Aug.6, 1892:
"A STARTLING THEORY
gained some believers Friday night who put more faith in the poisoning story than the evidence seems to warrant. Was it not possible that the vctims had been rendered unconscious by poison before the butchery began? The attitude in which Mr. Borden was found may have given support to this theory, but it is not so easy to explain why Mrs. Borden was found stretched at length on the floor where she had been stricken down by the murderous blow. Had she felt the effects of the poison slowly creeping over her, as it could be supposed that her husband did, was it not possible that she would have sought a resting place?

The trouble with the idea is that Mr. Borden was seen on the street half an hour before the news of his death was flashed over the country. During that half hour, it is known that he walked from his block on Main street to his home on Second street, exchanged his street coat for a house coat and sat down to read a paper. If he took poison after his trip down town it must have been prussic acid, for nothing else would have produced death so quickly. Professionals contend that there was nothing to indicate a dose of poison heavy enough to cause death or drowsiness. Poisons do not compose people to sleep, as a rule, and if morphine had been administered there would have been traces of it in the physical appearance of the man and woman."
.................
Kat
2057 posts Feb-27th-02 10:15 PM


2. "Re: Poison"
In response to message #1

Same source.
August 8, 1892

"The Absence of Blood Continues a Puzzle
_________________________________
DEAD BEFORE THE BUTCHERY
_____________________
A New Bedford Man's Theory of the Small Flow of Blood

Josiah A. Hunt, keeper of the house of correction, who has had an extensive experience as an officer of the law in this city, in speaking of the tragedy advanced a theory which has thus far escaped the notice of the police, or, if it has not, they are putting the public on the wrong scent.

Said Mr. Hunt: 'It is my opinion that both Mr. Borden and his wife were dead before the murderers struck a blow, probably poisoned by the use of prussic acid, which would cause instant death. The use of a hatchet was simply to mislead those finding the bodies. I believe this to be the real state of the case, for if they had been alive when the first blow was struck, the action of the heart would have been sufficient to have caused the blood to spatter more freely than is shown from the accounts furnished by the papers. There was altogether too much of a butchery for so little spattering of blood.

...That so little blood was found in the Borden home is surprising.' "

-I suppose it WOULD be easier to hatchet a person who was already dead, especially if you were Lizzie Borden...(?)
-I don't even think that it's considered a crime...maybe a misdemeanor...
-Had to stop right in the middle of this post to see Bob Dylan on the Grammy's. Only caught the words "cry" and "lawyer"...

.......................
Kat
2057 posts Feb-28th-02 11:59 PM

3. "More Poison"
In response to message #2

Did She Or Didn't She?
New Bedford Evening Standard
Aug.6, 1892 :2 :

"...If a person wished to kill and avoid detection, and that person were wise, hydrocyanic acid would be first choice among all deadly drugs. It is a diluted form of prussic acid and it does it's work surely. It is not necessary to use it in bulk; homoeopathic doses are all-sufficient. It is absorbed by the nervous system and leaves no traces, and it produces none of the anti-mortem symptoms peculiar to most violent poisons. There is no vomiting, no spasms or convulsions, no contraction of the muscles- hydocyanic acid simply takes hold of the heart and stops it's beating. It may not have been used in this case, and the detectives do not claim that it was.

The theory that Mr. and Mrs. Borden were drugged and murdered is not believed by the detectives, who contend that there was nothing to indicate a dose of poison heavy enough to cause death or drowsiness. Poisons do not compose people to sleep, as a rule, and if morphine had been administered there would have been traces of it in the physical appearance of the man and woman. Consequently, their theory is that a woman committed the murders. The Blows Were A Woman's Blows, there were many of them; ...."(emphasis, author's).

...........................
Kat
2057 posts Mar-1st-02 12:08 AM


4. "More on Poison in the Papers"
In response to message #3

Did She Or Didn't She?
New Bedford Evening Standard
Aug.4, 1892 :6 :

"ARSENIC IN THE PEPPER
Used on the table at the Fatal Dinner at the Cable House
Haverhill, Aug.4.- A dispatch from Newburyport states that arsenic has been found in the pepper that was used on the table at the Cable House, Salisbury Beach, on the day of the fatal dinner there..."

Aug.5, '92 :6 :

"Arsenic in Tea
SALISBURY BEACH, Mass.
Aug. 5.-
"Arsenic in tea is the generally accepted theory of the cause of the poisoning cases here."

-Seems like arsenical poisoning was in the papers at the time of the Borden murders....

......................
Kat
2057 posts Mar-1st-02 12:11 AM

5. "Re: More on Poison in the Papers"
In response to message #4

Same source, Aug.5th, '92 :5

For those Astrologically or Astronomically inclined:

The full moon for August was Monday, the 8th.

[Kat]

A little more from my computer. This item actually links Borden Murder in Headline with Salisbury, but after both incidents.

[Reasonwhy]

Thanks very much for the articles, Kat! I need to try to get a copy of Did She or Didn’t She? I do have the Casebook to look in.