What if Lizzie had succeeded in buying prussic acid?

[Kat]

I'll check to see if there's more on Salisbury in there, first. Unless you want a very big book with tons of very tiny text?
Harry and I liked actually reading the old papers, pretty much every item, not just "Borden". It was interesting because there's a sense of the time, in context.
He told me he liked to read old newspapers at his breakfast, as others would read their local paper with coffee...

[Kat]

BTW where is Crystalized?

[Kat]

Thanks very much for the articles, Kat! I need to try to get a copy of Did She or Didn’t She? I do have the Casebook to look in.

Well, I offered to look for more on the Salisbury beach poisoning In Did She or Didn't She and my eyes are cross-eyed, at only Aug 6th. So I'm not looking anymore. sorry...

[Reasonwhy]

That’s okay, Kat—sounds like tedious work—it’s small-print newspaper articles, isn’t it? Thank you so much for all of the looking you did do; you work so hard to research all these trails for us. Would you recommend I get the book? I probably would enjoy reading if it’s all Lizzie articles.

[Kat]

I'm sorry, I'm not one to recommend any books, only source documents.
But if you like to read newspapers, sure, why not?
Where would you get one, I wonder?

[PossumPie]

A FEW RESEARCH HINTS:
Use ELEPHIND.COM to search thousands of old newspapers for free. I suspect the large newspapers have somehow blocked the site from gathering their papers as neither NYT or Boston Globe are available.
If you are an alumni of a larger college or university, you should be entitled to a free username/password to their library collection of online journals, magazines, and newspapers.
Try Google Scholar, this won't give you newspaper articles, but it usually gives results that are peer reviewed and evidence-based if some scholar has written about what you are looking for.
install "Unpaywall" extension on your browser. This is a legal, legitimate extension that will seek free examples of articles or journals found online.
Generally, it is best to skip the top Google returns for a search that have the word "AD" in front of them as they are almost always a paysite.

[Reasonwhy]

A FEW RESEARCH HINTS:
Use ELEPHIND.COM to search thousands of old newspapers for free. I suspect the large newspapers have somehow blocked the site from gathering their papers as neither NYT or Boston Globe are available.
If you are an alumni of a larger college or university, you should be entitled to a free username/password to their library collection of online journals, magazines, and newspapers.
Try Google Scholar, this won't give you newspaper articles, but it usually gives results that are peer reviewed and evidence-based if some scholar has written about what you are looking for.
install "Unpaywall" extension on your browser. This is a legal, legitimate extension that will seek free examples of articles or journals found online.
Generally, it is best to skip the top Google returns for a search that have the word "AD" in front of them as they are almost always a paysite.

Possum, I do thank you very much for these tips! I have not tried them yet, as we pay for a subscription to “Newspapers.com,” for genealogy research. That service does not include several of the local papers carrying Lizzie stories, however, so I may yet try what you suggest.

[Reasonwhy]

I'm sorry, I'm not one to recommend any books, only source documents.
But if you like to read newspapers, sure, why not?
Where would you get one, I wonder?

Found two copies under $20 on Amazon (eBay had two for $30-40), so I ordered one. Sounds like I will need a magnifying glass

[phineas]

Forgive me if it’s been mentioned before and I’ve missed it, but it’s important to note that prussic acid is hydrogen cyanide. A very different kettle of fish. Deaths would have been instantaneous at table with probable frothing. Only a percentage of people can smell the telltale scent of almonds (so interesting) but possibly a doctor early enough - Bowen or after - could have caught it. Maybe Possum with her training can weigh in on half life in bodies.

Arsenic was typically a poison of choice in the 19th and early 20th c. It can be administered slowly over time to create the look of long term gastric distress snd could evade postmortems.

While effective and could be missed, you only get one murder for free with cyanide. A whole table expiring at once (possibly Bridget if she took a taste to settle her stomach) would have put the noose on Lizzie.

Lizzie wasn’t the smartest pigeon in the Borden barn and could have easily have knocked herself off in the process.

That Lizzie searched for poisons ahead to time solves a long term problem for me in that I often thought Abby could have been a crime of passion and Andrew an odious but then necessary task.

[PossumPie]

Forgive me if it’s been mentioned before and I’ve missed it, but it’s important to note that prussic acid is hydrogen cyanide. A very different kettle of fish. Deaths would have been instantaneous at table with probable frothing. Only a percentage of people can smell the telltale scent of almonds (so interesting) but possibly a doctor early enough - Bowen or after - could have caught it. Maybe Possum with her training can weigh in on half life in bodies.

Arsenic was typically a poison of choice in the 19th and early 20th c. It can be administered slowly over time to create the look of long term gastric distress snd could evade postmortems.

While effective and could be missed, you only get one murder for free with cyanide. A whole table expiring at once (possibly Bridget if she took a taste to settle her stomach) would have put the noose on Lizzie.

Lizzie wasn’t the smartest pigeon in the Borden barn and could have easily have knocked herself off in the process.

That Lizzie searched for poisons ahead to time solves a long term problem for me in that I often thought Abby could have been a crime of passion and Andrew an odious but then necessary task.

There is quite a bit of talk about this in this and other threads. Yes, back in the late 1800s Prussic acid was detectable in a body for less than 24 hours. If they ingested a sub-lethal dose Wednesday, by autopsy time it would have been undetectable. It was used in VERY small amounts in some medications at the time. Prussic acid is Hydrogen cyanide dissolved in a liquid. The infamous Nazi Zyclon B was hydrogen cyanide in solid form that when mixed in water gave off cyanide gas and was used in the gas chambers of the concentration/extermination camps.

[phineas]

Thanks Possum. With her penchant for overkill, in my view Lizzie would have gone undiluted! To answer the question the thread posed, I think poison of any kind would have doomed her. It was seen as “the women’s method,” so would have fit neatly into Victorian presumptions about women. The violence of a hatchet confounded the jury of men and that to me is what got her off. Lizzie benefited mightily from the sexism of low expectations, let’s say. That and her class. Convicting the rich has never been an American speciality it seems.

[PossumPie]

Thanks Possum. With her penchant for overkill, in my view Lizzie would have gone undiluted! To answer the question the thread posed, I think poison of any kind would have doomed her. It was seen as “the women’s method,” so would have fit neatly into Victorian presumptions about women. The violence of a hatchet confounded the jury of men and that to me is what got her off. Lizzie benefited mightily from the sexism of low expectations, let’s say. That and her class. Convicting the rich has never been an American speciality it seems.

I taught a "Medical Law & Ethics "course awhile back. When talking about the "Good Samaritan" law that gives legal protection to people who give reasonable assistance to those who are, or whom they believe to be injured, ill, or in peril, students naively believed that they would be protected from lawsuit if they tried to medically assist someone and ended up causing injury. I told them that it didn't matter what a law says, only how good of a lawyer you have.
An off-duty paramedic came across a burning automobile with the driver trapped. Believing the driver was in danger, the paramedic pulled him out from the vehicle without stabilizing his neck/spine and the driver ended up paralyzed. He would have died had not the paramedic assisted him, but the paramedic was (successfully) sued. Moral of the story: A good lawyer is better than a law.
Just in case you think that was an isolated incident, in 2008 Lisa Torti was successfully sued for pulling a friend out of a smoking vehicle she believed was going to explode. While Torti didn't have medical training, the point is a good lawyer successfully punished a person trying to help. Think about this next time you want to try to save someone's life--you may be sued.

[Kat]

That is interesting stuff, thanks, PossumPie. It's also cool to learn more about you when you share.

[Kat]

Let's see...prussic acid = Smith's drug store. Well, in the section of the Forum called Second Street Secondhand Shop, there is a great thread from the past by Harry, but MB really came thru and posted a LOT of newspapers illustrations from e-bay! Thank you mb!
Just a quick detour
Here's the link

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4938

[Kat]

Another quick detour...it's the Holidays, right?
Second Street Secondhand Shop bloody clock topic revived, updated with pictures
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3951

[camgarsky4]

Possum -- in your estimation, in 1892, for convenience, quick treatment, etc., would a doctor likely keep various medicines and ingredients at their homes? What is the likelihood that arsenic would be one of those items?

[PossumPie]

Possum -- in your estimation, in 1892, for convenience, quick treatment, etc., would a doctor likely keep various medicines and ingredients at their homes? What is the likelihood that arsenic would be one of those items?

In rural areas, doctors had their office in their homes and would have had a locked cabinet of meds/ingredients. In a town or city, some would have had a separate office away from their home but I imagine others would have had an attached office for convenience. The biggest drawback would be keeping morphine at home as addicts would know that it was there and break in. Even back then there were a lot of opiate addicts, thanks to it's use in the Civil War (1861-1865)
1892 was pre-penicillin so in cities Syphilis was still rampant. Arsenic was used in "Fowler's solution" to treat syphilis so it wouldn't be uncommon for a doctor to have a stash of arsenic somewhere in his bag or home or office. I doubt that it would be easy for someone could steal some from a doctor however.

[camgarsky4]

Thanks! Merry Christmas!

[PossumPie]

Burlington Weekly Free Press July 28 1892

'A Dangerous Beautifier.'

Enough Poison in One Bottle to Kill Half a Dozen Persons.

FALL RIVER, Mass., July the 21. - Miss Jesse Wood, clerk for Dr Lulu A. Moody, ladies' hairdresser, was fined $10 and costs in the district court for selling a bottle of Madame A. Ruppert's face bleach. State Agent McCaffrey paid Miss Wood $2 for the bottle, but its contents, he said, cost the manufacturer about 10 cents.

He said there was enough poison in one bottle of the bleach to kill seven persons. A certificate of analysis from the state chemist showed that each bottle contained 23 grains of corrosive sublimate. Three grains were a fatal dose to any adult.'
---------
I Stumbled across this news article. Didn't think much of it until I researched "corrosive sublimate" otherwise known as bicloride of murcury. This highly toxic poison had among its uses "preserving fur coats" This just may be the link to the "out-of-the-blue" comment by Lizzie that she wanted the Prussic Acid to put on her sealskin cape. Prussic acid in ineffective for furs BUT bicloride of murcury works on them AND it was in the paper right before the attempt to buy poison!
Further research found this "helpful tip" in a newspaper near the same time:

[Reasonwhy]

Interesting, Possum! We know Lizzie read much, but was not well educated. So, she could have gotten creative with her poisons and gotten the idea for the “moths” excuse from this type of article. Did the printed ad with the cartoon also appear in a local paper, do you know?

[PossumPie]

Interesting, Possum! We know Lizzie read much, but was not well educated. So, she could have gotten creative with her poisons and gotten the idea for the “moths” excuse from this type of article. Did the printed ad with the cartoon also appear in a local paper, do you know?

To be clear, the second article with the cute pictures that I found was printed much later than the murders. I only reproduced it to show that it was common knowledge at the time that that poison could be used to preserve fur. It's a "helpful hints" type of blurb that can still be found in newspapers, and in 21st-century lingo would be called "Hacks" such as sprinkling salt in a cast iron pan to scrub out tough residue or using a dab of Vasoline on your key to prevent your locks from sticking. Talk of poison was prevalent that summer of 1892 in New England as several other cases were in the news. The article that I posted about the hair bleach appeared in the Fall River newspapers less than one week before the murders and could very well have been brought to everyone in the family's attention due to their belief that they were being poisoned.
I've always found it odd that Abby suspected that the family's stomach upset was due to poison and not bad meat. Nowadays with mountains of preservatives, refrigeration, and expiration dates food poisoning is rare, but in the era before refrigeration summertime brought at least one bout of food poisoning. Especially in a family that probably wouldn't throw away a suspicious-smelling piece of meat.

[Kat]

Because of the blurb in JJ about Emma asking Lizzie for chloroform (see topic "What Do We Know About Emma?"), I did a search for chloroform in my computer, different sources, and thought maybe Emma would show up associated with that, but no. It seems that tidbit was only for Jennings, the defense.

Here are 3 references to chloroform that we have not used lately. When I specify "lately", it means I did not search the current Forum. I did, however find a post by me from 2001 as an excerpt from an interesting book I don't think I have anymore: On Deaths Bloody Trail. There was a lot on poison in there!
(BTW: Am not including Rebello reference to Brows story, or any news item about Brow, as we've already read that)

The Commonwealth of Massachusetts
vs.
Lizzie A. Borden

The Knowlton Papers, 1892-1893

pg 78+

Toledo Ohio
#526 Front St.
Sep 13 '92

District Attorney Knowlton
Fall River
Mass.
Dear Sir-
Have been reading with some interest the Borden murder case and a
suggestion occurred to me which I have not seen spoken of in the paper~
& which would explain some mysteries connected with the case. From

Page 79

the description of the case the thought came to me that the murderer of
the Bordens used chloroform to facilitate the murder of the aged couple.
This theory seems feasible from the following points:
1. It explains the difference of 1-1/2 hours between the deaths of the vic-
tims as the murderer after catching one of the victims asleep & finishing
her would perhaps have to wait some time to catch the other sleeping.
2. This accounts for no noise being heard.
3. It would account largely for the bloodless clothes.
4. It accounts for the slumbering position in which the old couple were
found, the old man especially in his usual place on the sofa in his usual
position.
5. It accounts for so many slashes on the victims inflicted by the murder-
er as under the anaesthetic it would be difficult to tell when life had
ceased. Thus the murderer would make many slashes or cuts to make
death sure.

Mr. Johnson a legal friend of mine suggested to me that I acquaint you
with this theory. Should it prove of any benefit to you I should be pleased
to know it.
Respectfully Yours,
Dr. M. M. Park
Dentist
Address me at
#526 Front St. Toledo Ohio

P.S. I might add if such were the case post mortum examination of the
stomach would develop nothing.
Yours M. M. P.
__________________________

LIZZIE BORDEN - PAST & PRESENT
By Leonard Rebello 1999
pg135+

"Uncle John Morse Talks," New Bedford Evening Journal, Friday, June 23, 1893: 3.

Uncle Morse offered his theory to a journalist two days after the trial. "I would give $2,000 to know who committed those murders ... My idea is that he went into that house for the purpose of killing Mr. Borden, but not finding Mr. Borden in, he went upstairs in the front chamber to wait and watch for him. While in there, I think Mrs. Borden came in ___?___ after making the bed, and he was forced to kill her ... as not to be found out, with that hatchet about his person." (Morse made no mention of Mr. Borden's murder.)

"Now they say that Lizzie Borden did that and I [John Morse] planned it all out. If I'd been planning it, is it likely I'd have planned in that way? Wouldn't it have been easier to have smothered them with chloroform in the night and in the morning said they had committed suicide?"
_______________________________


"Speaking of poison"
The Lizzie Borden Message Board: LIZZIE BORDEN: Speaking of poison

By katkoorey on Thursday, November 08, 2001 - 01:46 am: Edit

"Scientists took great pains to develop a complicated test for arsenical poisoning early on, as it had been used and abused to great lengths around the world. This was called the Marsh test-1836. Preceeding this , were various tests: 1790, 1806, and in 1813 a book was published by Mr. Orfila: Traites des poisons, that standardized tests for poisons."

"Arsenic was the favorite poison of the Victorian era-what George Orwell termed the 'golden age of English murder',-because it was so readily available as a rat poison. The Marsh test was useful for the metallic poisons, but there were plenty of vegetable poisons which could not be detected so readily, including aconite, belladonna, strychnine, opium and nicotine. And other deadly poisons like mercury, phosphorus and chloroform were equally undetectable. As late as 1847 the great Orfila (Spaniard) admitted that it was possible that the vegetable poisons would remain undetectable.
The state of knowledge in the field of forensic toxicology at this time (1864) was limited but improving. There were hundreds of poisons for which no test as yet existed, but broadly speaking poisons could now be grouped into 4 catagories according to their effects. First those poisons which affect the oxygen-carrying capability of the blood-typically cyanide.*
Then the acids and alkalis which are corrosive and usually burn the mouth. Chloroform is one example. The third group consists of those poisons which destroy the entire body system by absorption, either slowly or quickly, such as arsenic, antimony, mercury and the vegetable poisons, like strychine, morphine and hyoscine. The fourth group comprises poisons which leave no trace of entry-no obvious lesions- but kill after being absorbed by the body. Ricin, arsine and nitrobenzine fall into this catagory."

---From: On Death's Bloody Trail, by Brian Marriner, 1991

*According to Webster's Dict., HYDROCYANIC ACID= PRUSSIC ACID= a FORM OF CYANIDE.

---(Me): Maybe, if there was poison, the "poison" was nicotine? (Some in Andrew's pocket...)

[Reasonwhy]

Can you explain a bit more about the nicotine idea, Kat? How would this be administered in a high enough dosage to be poisonous? Thanks.

[Kat]

Looking now at past posts, it seems the amount of nicotine in a pack of cigarettes would be enough to cause death. There's the description of soaking them and using the liquid. That may be now-a -days equivalent.

Here is a post that claims it can be a Remedy for arsenic poisoning! Tho we don't have arsenic in the case....but it has me wondering if Andrew Borden ever thought he was being poisoned

[Reasonwhy]

Allen’s post is a good find! Her contributions to the forum were so well thought-out and researched.

I recall also having read somewhere on the forum that nicotine was used as a general treatment for stomach upset, but not before this that it was specifically believed to be an arsenic antidote. Now I wonder if Andrew as well as Abby might have suspected they were being poisoned?

[Kat]

Yes, and if so, he would not want it known (like the daylight robbery)- maybe that's why he disagreed with Abbie about going to see Dr Bowen, and also not greeting Bowen when he came over to see Andrew. Somehow he thought he would deal with it...we can speculate that "poisoning," and finally the awareness of it by the parents, might have been the precipitating factor in the murders.

It's possible that the division in the family might have started out as girls vs Abbie, but evolved over time to girls plus Andrew vs Abbie. By that, I mean I can envision excuses made by Andrew about certain behaviors he was willing to over look for peace in the home (but not poisoning!), with, by then, Abbie (bolstered by her family on Fourth Street as her allies) rebelling and finally talking about her treatment as second class citizen in her own home.

That would explain the seemingly hurried visit to Alice by Lizzie with that weird warning of overhanging doom the night before the killings. She was about to be exposed! And Emma was not there to run defense. That would cause panic, and the innate knowledge that poison could no longer be used, since too many people, by now would be aware of this method. It would also explain Lizzies seeming familiarity with at least 3 Apothocarys, going back at least 4 years.

There's another point to this: an escalation that August that was frightening Abbie.
Another thing to consider: poisoners get addicted to that feeling of power, and don't stop.
There might actually be a frisson, a thrill, experienced by Lizzie when she poisoned, that might be like a guilty pleasure she cannot explain, even to herself because of Victorian inhibitions. I mean to imply that it was done for "the thrill" and not necessarily to kill.
(Hatcheters can stop after the final strike)

There's another post on the Forum by me that, by taking this into consideration, Lizzie did not stop poisioning, and might have been systematically, and slowly poisoning Emma as a sadistic habit at Maplecroft, and might be the reason Emma left, and would never reveal the reason, and could not ever trust being around Lizzie again.

Speculation by someone (me) who doesn't really believe that Lizzie could both poison and wield a hatchet, and that if she did murder, it would be either one method or the other...but this situation could account for that.

[Kat]

PS I've not yet read any current books like Cara Robertson, Paralell Lives, Spencer's book, nor Jennings Journals (except for looking up Sawyer and Emma-and a couple of isolated items), so if this theory is already covered, I didn't get it from anyone.

[camgarsky4]

Kat -- you sure thru out a zinger. I need to reread this thread and do some other reading and thinking before I react to this provocative theory.

Sounds like the theory is that Lizzie had been attempting to poison them for a while and AJB had caught on and was getting ready to expose her attempts, so she acted swiftly with the hatchet. I presume part of the thought is that once exposed, AJB would also cut her out of any inheritance.

I've read all those books except Cara Robertson's, and to my knowledge this an original concept.

By the way, you mention 3 apothecaries. I think you can very safely make that 4 (Wright) or 5 (Church) the two summoned pharmacists from New Bedford. JJ Pg 251, I think Mrs. Poole provides additional circumstantial evidence that Lizzie visited a pharmacy that Saturday morning with her quote "(Lizzie) told me about getting Frank's pills." The only time Lizzie was out of Mrs. Poole's sight that day was when Lizzie went out shopping alone that Saturday morning.

No idea who Frank was other than possibly the "little boy" who went with the Poole's and Lizzie to Fair Haven that same Saturday.

[Kat]

Well, thanks for the extra Apothocarys! If that is 5, then she was visiting more druggists than (supposed) lawyers that summer
Did Wright and Church identify her as a patron?

[Kat]

Then I wonder about her Hannah Nelson whose loss Lizzie bemoaned so tragically.
And we would now know why Lizzie seemed to insist on her privacy at Second Street...locked door..locked dress closet...and no one was allowed to enter her room. Because of her cache? It also doesn't leave out that she may have been an "arsenic eater"... as her later addiction to morphine after the murders and beyond, seems to show she wasn't very concerned about being on a drug so long.
I know this is going much farther, but it's in the realm of possibility, if I'm going to think of Lizzie as a thrill poisoner...my very next thought was 'Hannah.'

[camgarsky4]

Well, thanks for the extra Apothocarys! If that is 5, then she was visiting more druggists than (supposed) lawyers that summer
Did Wright and Church identify her as a patron?

Kat -- I'll be a little (or maybe a lot) lazy and provide some good references for the possible role that Wright and Church played in the case.

Jennings Journals Pg. 335 Edward Wright editors notes.
Knowlton Papers Pg. 183 List of witnesses. Wright & Church listed with Bence, Kilroy & Hart as witnesses related to "buying prussic acid"
Case Against Lizzie Borden (Spencer) pgs 726-729. Spencer provides a fantastic dive into Wright & Church as witnesses.

On a thread from years ago, a poster pin pointed where on a map of New Bedford these two apothecaries were located....both very much within walking distance of the Poole home. That proximity loops back to my earlier post of the Jennings Journal quote of Mrs. Poole regarding Lizzie apparently 'getting Frank's pills". An apothecary would be a likely source for meds.

And as a side note.....keep stretching your theory....that is how legit new ideas arise, when we let our minds wander into fresh and undefined territory, often we find something real and amazing!

Here is a tidbit that possibly buttresses your idea that AJB suspected something nefarious was cooking in the household. On page 49 of the Lizzie Borden Sourcebook is a Fall River Herald article which reports that AJB asked Emma for her Fairhaven location info in the event something happened and he wanted to reach her. Another one of those snippets that might mean nothing or might mean a lot. Presuming Emma shared that story, she must have thought it unusual.

[PossumPie]

Kat, your theory is fascinating. It does wrap many already known (or suspected) occurrences nicely into a package.

[Kat]

I'll be interested in the findings as to whether these Wright and Church fellows knew Lizzie as a customer.
And the story about Andrew wanting to know Emma's exact whereabouts (if true) could fit in.
There is more:
To some people, it seems Lizzie made much of the "fact" that she would not eat with the elders. There seemed to be a few reasons for that...she wasn't up in the morning in time...she didn't care to be around Abbie...she wasn't hungry... But upon hearing herself say these things, she would hedge and say she went to table, but did not eat. Why would someone go to table and not eat?

She had cookies and coffee or pears for breakfast in the kitchen...she didn't seem to want to eat the food that was prepared.
It's possible that whenever she had a disagreement within the family, she might "punish" with a little poisoning ...?

[camgarsky4]

Kat -- in my post above I provided some of the sources on Wright & Church. There are a couple newspaper articles in the Sourcebook also. Problem is once I read something in that book, I always struggle to re-find it, but will skim thru those pages today.

Is your working theory that Lizzie used 'lessor' poisons as a means to punish others and then as she decided a lethal solution for the elders was necessary, she identified Prussic Acid as the preferred poison? Upon failing to acquire PA (up to Wed morning) and learning that AJB was going to expose her prior attempts, she resorted to violence w/ hatchet to avoid the exposure and presumably to accelerate her inheritance?

[KGDevil]

It's a little late to be posting a reply about the Salisbury Poisonings, but these articles appeared in newspapers in Fall River on August 3, 1892. There's also an article from the Boston Globe. A couple of the Fall River newspapers published the exact same article word for word so I didn't include all of them.

[KGDevil]

I'll be interested in the findings as to whether these Wright and Church fellows knew Lizzie as a customer.
And the story about Andrew wanting to know Emma's exact whereabouts (if true) could fit in.
There is more:
To some people, it seems Lizzie made much of the "fact" that she would not eat with the elders. There seemed to be a few reasons for that...she wasn't up in the morning in time...she didn't care to be around Abbie...she wasn't hungry... But upon hearing herself say these things, she would hedge and say she went to table, but did not eat. Why would someone go to table and not eat?

She had cookies and coffee or pears for breakfast in the kitchen...she didn't seem to want to eat the food that was prepared.
It's possible that whenever she had a disagreement within the family, she might "punish" with a little poisoning ...?

The druggists who came to Fall River from New Bedford were Edward E. Wright of the Wright Drug Co., and William R. Martin of Church & Hammond. The Wright Drug Co. was at 49 Purchase St. Church & Hammond was at 122 Purchase and 1 Pleasant. Before going to work in New Bedford William R. Martin had been a clerk for seven years at W.G Bennett druggist at 2 North Main in Fall River. Edward E. Wright got into a little hot water about a year after the murders.

[KGDevil]

Directories

[KGDevil]

Hot water for Edward E. Wright.

[camgarsky4]

KG, you just keep providing the dynamite! I feel skittish to ask, but any chance you could add dates and newspaper names to the articles?

[KGDevil]

KG, you just keep providing the dynamite! I feel skittish to ask, but any chance you could add dates and newspaper names to the articles?

I went back and added the dates and newspaper names to all of the articles. Thanks for pointing out that I forgot to add them. I usually do.

[KGDevil]

I'm might take a closer look into William R. Martin and Edward E. Wright a little more to see what I can find out about them.

[Kat]

Thank you for more info, KG.
So there is one line in all the news items that infer Wright thought Lizzie Borden may have tried to buy prussic acid from that store in New Bedford? And the citation from JJ, says Wright does not have a good reputation, and also doesn't specify when the Borden sisters had come in for prussic acid.
We know Grand Juries are secret and the paper, I believe, is creating an impression, but would not have facts as to what witnesses were testifying. Those previous news accounts do not say that she was there and did that - in fact, it seemed they were going to be used as "expert witness" because they were somewhat local, and in the "biz" so to speak?

Anyway, I don't have a working hypothesis, but I think the theme can be developed, as we are doing now. But no, I'm not saying Lizzie was ever going to kill with poison; That she may have wanted the thrill of small poisoning over time. Some poisoners toy with their subjects, allow them to recover, and then start again, low doses. But if she lost control that Tuesday, and gave a bigger dose that got Andrews full attention, and if he started to realize the dangerous situation, then she would go into panic mode, give Alice the "story" and with the elders already weakened by their illness, they would be easier to kill by hatchet...in desperation. But not by poison, that's the point. (Pun unfortunate). Poison would directly implicate someone in the household, so anything but that.

[Kat]

Now we have Dr Handy, and in past posts I think KG and others were looking at him suspiciously in some way. Even locals at the time thought he acted strangely Thursday.
I keep remembering the phrase about Bowen's coming over " Dr Handy style." So where does he fit in?
Here's the original quote post, referring to Bowen:

Harry is quoting:
Partial quote:
Nadzieja @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:13 pm wrote:
So I take it that he was very emotionally upset. Which brings me to question how close of a friend was he to this family. I was always under the impression that the Borden family wasn't anti social but weren't exactly social butterflies either.

Any other opinions?

Harry's response:

That's a good question, Lorraine. There's not too much information to make a sure determination, just little incidents.

Lizzie apparently liked Dr. Bowen at least to some degree. He did escort her to church one time and he was the first person she sent for after "discovering" her father. While she was in prison he sent flowers on at least one occasion. The Bowen's were invited to the funeral services.

Alice Russell has this to say in her letter of June 2, 1893 describing what Lizzie told her on Lizzie's visit of Aug. 3rd, 1892:

"... She told me of Mrs. Borden going over to see Dr. Bowen. Mrs. Borden said she was afraid they had been poisoned. Mrs. Borden met Mr. Borden in the entry on her way out, and told him where she was going. Lizzie said "her father did not like it and said my money shant pay for it. But she went over. I asked her what Dr. Bowen said she replied, he laughed when Mrs. Borden told what she feared, and said it was not poison. Mrs. Borden had told the doctor about Mr. Borden's being sick and he went over to see him. Lizzie said "the way father used Dr. Bowen - why I was so mortified. I don't know what the doctor will think I am sure." After he had gone Mrs. Borden scolded. She said I am ashamed for you to use Dr. Bowen so. Mr. Borden said "well I don't want him coming over here Dr. Handy style." Mrs. B. said he didn't come over here Dr. Handy style. I told him you were sick and he came over to see you and I think it is a shame you can't treat him decent. He is all the neighbors we have got and I think it is too bad."

--To me, it sounds like Dr Handy could either be a busybody (but why should he?), or maybe he was actually checking up on the old folks, as his daughter was an intimate friend of Lizzie.
But here's another doctor with enough concern, to come over without invitation...apparently randomly...
What do we make of this?

[PossumPie]

Now we have Dr Handy, and in past posts I think KG and others were looking at him suspiciously in some way. Even locals at the time thought he acted strangely Thursday.
I keep remembering the phrase about Bowen's coming over " Dr Handy style." So where does he fit in?

Perhaps Andrew thought Dr. Handy was a "gold digger" who dropped in, elicited some medical complaint from one of the Borden's ended up diagnosing and treating then sent a bill...?

[KGDevil]

Here's just a little more on William R. Martin the drug clerk. He seems to have been pretty well respected. He lived in Fall River for several years, attended the schools there, and worked at W.G. Bennett's pharmacy as a clerk on North Main. William ultimately moved to Chester, Pennsylvania, which is in Delaware county, to open his own store which is where he resided until he died in 1914. His obituary appeared in The Fall River Daily News. According to his death certificate he was born in Scotland.

[KGDevil]

Mrs. Handy did say that she was a frequent visitor to the Borden house for 15 years prior to the murders. Maybe Dr. and Mrs. Handy had a habit of popping over unannounced. This interview appeared in Lizzie Borden Past & Present, but it is easier to post the article than it is to type it all out.

[Kat]

Thanks KG for the news items!
And possum, I was going to add the comment that the "accepted" translation of "Dr Handy Style" seems to have been that Andrew was frugal and was worried about being charged and it fed the cliche of a skinflint to make that point, not digging any deeper- superficial. But just maybe that is a red herring, like "look over here...not over there..." and it was really a doctor's concern, and that maybe Abbie and or Andrew had been unwell for a while( )

So far, does it make sense that the last thing Lizzie would do (if she did want to tamper with the elder Borden's health), is try to kill with poison after Wednesday's visit by Dr Bowen after Abbie's visit to him?
If agreed, that at least answers this topics question which is:
"What if Lizzie had succeeded in buying prussic acid?"
(It's been maintained that Lizzie went out Wednesday to try to buy prussic acid, and that would have been after the Doctor came in the morning with the word 'poison' being used)

[Reasonwhy]

The evidence that Lizzie tried to buy prussic acid, both before and on Wednesday, is, to me, very well evidenced. Since it took such a minuscule quantity to kill the one administering it, however, I do not think she understood its potency.

I think she did buy it for the purpose of using it on Abby and Andrew. For what other reason would she have sought it, let alone have taken the risk in exposing herself in such a purchase (though I believe her arrogant enough to think she could explain that away; she was correct!)?

She may have sadistically been poisoning them with milder poisons and doses before that. I admired your original thinking there, Kat—though Abby had not experienced these symptoms before, at least not enough to cry poison to Dr. Bowen.

But if Lizzie was panicked about being confronted by Andrew about this/these poisoning/s, that could have been the very reason she did switch to the more certainly fatal, undetectable prussic acid on Wednesday forenoon. And only when she could not procure that did she take to the hatchet, probably in her room ready to chop wood once she joined her friends at Marion.

[Reasonwhy]

On a related note, I have always been bothered by the acceptance of many that Andrew was rude to Bowen, said his money wouldn’t pay for his visit, etc. We have only Lizzie’s word for that. Yes, Alice talked about this, but only as Lizzie had told it to her Wednesday night. The only other witness to testify to the matter was Bowen, whose accounts of his exchange with Andrew over this matter are very mild, and include no unpleasantness whatsoever.

It would have been to Lizzie’s advantage to falsely paint Andrew as “discourteous” in this instance to further the idea that this was reflective of Andrew’s general demeanor, so he was just asking for “somebody” to “do something.”


Alice Russell’s testimony, Trial, p. 379 (italicizing and underlining are mine):

Q. What had she said just before the burning of the house?
A. I think that was the beginning of her telling me about her fears of somebody breaking in, before she told me about the breaking into the barn, I think.

Q. Is there anything else that occurs to you in the conversation?
A. I don't think of anything.

Q. Anything about doing anything to any member of the household; not herself, but anyone else; anything to her father. She was afraid that someone would do something.
A. Oh, she said, "I am afraid somebody will do something; I don't know but what somebody will do something." I think that was the beginning.

Q. Please state that.
A. I think sometimes---I am afraid sometimes that somebody will do something to him; he is so discourteous to people." And then she said, "Dr. Bowen came over. Mrs. Borden went over, and father didn't like it because she was going; and she told him where she was going, and he says, 'Well, my money shan't pay for it.' She went over to Dr. Bowen's, and Dr. Bowen told her---she told him she was afraid they were poisoned ---and Dr. Bowen laughed, and said, No, there wasn't any poison. And she came back, and Dr. Bowen came over." And she said, "I am so ashamed, the way father treated Dr. Bowen. I was so mortified." And she said after he had gone Mrs. Borden said she thought it was too bad for him to treat Dr. Bowen so, and [he] said he didn't want him coming over there that way.”


Dr. Bowen’s inquest testimony, pp. 115/22 and 116/23 (italicizing and bolding is mine):

"Q. You had not been called that week to the family?
A. No Sir, I had not been called. I went over to see them. The day before, Wednesday morning, about eight o’clock, or before eight, Mrs. Borden came to the door and said she was frightened, said that she was afraid she was poisened. I told her to come in. She sat down, and she said the night before about nine o’clock she and her husband commenced to vomit, and vomitted for two or three hours until twelve, I understood.

Q. What morning was this?
A. Wednesday morning. I asked her what she had eaten for supper, and she told me. She said she had eaten some baker’s white bread, and she had heard of baker’s cream cakes being poisonous, and was afraid there was something poisonous in the bread that made her vomit. She said she only ate cake and baker’s white bread. At that time she had a sort of an eructation of vomiting, slightly. I was afraid she was going to vomit there, I rather got ready for her. I told her to go home, and told her what to take; and she took it.

Q. Do you recollect what it was you prescribed for her?
A. I told her to take some castor oil, and take it in a little port wine to take the taste off, and probably that would be all she would want. I think immediately after breakfast, I thought they were neighbors, I would just go over. Before that, she said Lizzie came down, she heard them vomiting, I think she was in the next room, and she was up too, and she commenced to vomit at that time, about twelve. I thought if they did not call me I would go over and make a friendly call. I went over after breakfast. I think Bridget let me in, I am very sure it was the front door. I says “Mr. Borden, what is the matter?” He looked at me and wanted to know if anybody had sent for me. I told him no, Mrs. Borden was over, I thought I would just come over and see. He seemed well enough then. He said he felt a little heavy, and did not feel just right, but said he did not think he needed any medicine. I did not urge him at all, of course, and I went home. I did not think much about it. I saw Mr. Borden out two or three hours afterwards. When I went in, I saw Lizzie run up stairs. Mrs. Borden I did not see, because I had seen her before."

[PossumPie]

Thanks Reasonwhy...So the question is was Dr. Bowen being truthful and there was no rude exchange, or was he "not speaking ill of the dead" and softening the whole conversation? I can see Andrew being perturbed with his money being spent on a frivolous doctor's visit.