John Donnelly and the Hay in the Barn

[swinell]

Swinell, can you please comment more about some of the information in Parallel Lives that you find lines up with Carlisle’s analysis? Very intriguing!! Thanks.

I just typed out a whole response to this but it's gone now so I'll refer you to pgs 63-64 of Parallel Lives

- Abby was 37 at the time of her marriage to Andrew, decidedly a spinster by 1860s standards
- Andrew had no sexual contact for at least four years prior to marrying Abby
- Andrew & Abby shared a bed despite it being much more common for married couples to have separate beds. This could be either out of necessity or it could point to their marriage indeed having been affectionate in nature.
- Despite it being very common for widowers to remarry and have a child within a year of remarrying, Andrew & Abby never had children. We have no evidence either way as to the couples' fertility at the time of their marriage but Andrew did father three children with his previous wife and Abby's autopsy says her fallopian tubes and ovaries were fully intact. So either they were infertile or they did not consummate their marriage (which would be exceptionally odd). To boot, having a child of her own with Andrew would've cemented her place as the new Mrs. Borden as the mother of his child rather than the much more tenuous position of step-mother.
- Emma did not like Abby from day 1, she viewed her as trying to usurp both her mother's place and her place as Lizzie's mother-figure
- Emma is shipped off to boarding school for a year at the age of 16. She only stayed a year despite making friends and by all accounts having a good time (was she worried about her sister?). We don't know if this was Emma's decision, a mutual decision, or a decision imposed on Emma by Andrew.
- Also the relationship between Lizzie and Andrew is repeatedly marked in PL and elsewhere as having been a "special love" - I don't know if this is a common description of close parent-child bonds from the time but that is certainly worth further examination.

[swinell]

Possum - Interesting that you bring up the Menendez Brothers especially considering their defense (I assume that's intentional) and the multiple family members as well as close friends who testified to the veracity of their claims about the abuse they suffered. From your perspective, would it be possible for a battered/abused child to be most demonstrably motivated by financial gain but less demonstrably though still considerably motivated by a need to end the abuse?

[PossumPie]

Possum - Interesting that you bring up the Menendez Brothers especially considering their defense (I assume that's intentional) and the multiple family members as well as close friends who testified to the veracity of their claims about the abuse they suffered. From your perspective, would it be possible for a battered/abused child to be most demonstrably motivated by financial gain but less demonstrably though still considerably motivated by a need to end the abuse?

Abuse is subjective. Strictness, spankings, verbal attacks could all be considered abuse depending on the situation. I think Lizzie experienced frustration at living in a converted two-story house on the edge of the bad section of town. I think Andrew ALWAYS got his way. There are anecdotes about their love for each other, it's a shame that in modern society that takes on a sexual perversion connotation-- I see no evidence of that. Andrew wore her high school ring...why? did he really have a soft spot for her? Were they close? if so, how could she have stood over him and hacked him up? Motive for killing Abby is irrefutable. Both daughters expressed contempt for her. But what about Andrew? Was it as simple as him standing in the way of eight million dollars? Given the absence of any other motive, I believe it was. The Menendez brothers used the abuse as an excuse for killing their parents, but they never tried to leave or have their father arrested. I think it damaged them for sure, but it was just a simple excuse for killing them and getting their money. Statistics show that 1 in 5 girls and 1 in 20 boys is a victim of child sexual abuse yet very few kill their abuser and very few willingly continue to live under the same roof as their abuser once they are old enough to be out on their own.

[swinell]

Possum - Interesting that you bring up the Menendez Brothers especially considering their defense (I assume that's intentional) and the multiple family members as well as close friends who testified to the veracity of their claims about the abuse they suffered. From your perspective, would it be possible for a battered/abused child to be most demonstrably motivated by financial gain but less demonstrably though still considerably motivated by a need to end the abuse?

Abuse is subjective. Strictness, spankings, verbal attacks could all be considered abuse depending on the situation. I think Lizzie experienced frustration at living in a converted two-story house on the edge of the bad section of town. I think Andrew ALWAYS got his way. There are anecdotes about their love for each other, it's a shame that in modern society that takes on a sexual perversion connotation-- I see no evidence of that. Andrew wore her high school ring...why? did he really have a soft spot for her? Were they close? if so, how could she have stood over him and hacked him up? Motive for killing Abby is irrefutable. Both daughters expressed contempt for her. But what about Andrew? Was it as simple as him standing in the way of eight million dollars? Given the absence of any other motive, I believe it was. The Menendez brothers used the abuse as an excuse for killing their parents, but they never tried to leave or have their father arrested. I think it damaged them for sure, but it was just a simple excuse for killing them and getting their money. Statistics show that 1 in 5 girls and 1 in 20 boys is a victim of child sexual abuse yet very few kill their abuser and very few willingly continue to live under the same roof as their abuser once they are old enough to be out on their own.

Maybe this is just my warped view of the times but I assume spanking, strictness, lack of parental tact were much more commonplace in the era of "Children are to be seen, not heard" which leads to me to believe that those qualities alone, while certainly damaging to a child's psyche, would not suffice as a motive for murder. Add to this a social climate that does not have even the verbiage to describe incest (Carlisle mentions Freud's struggle with this issue and how pressure from his colleagues led him to change his conclusion from solely an abusive father to a sexually promiscuous daughter who was "asking for it"), as well as one that is not exactly sympathetic to women at all, let alone spinsters over the age of 30...just trying to picture all that consternation and rage and confusion and fear leads me to think they might have felt trapped in their situation.

That said, Possum, you'll likely have more to say on this matter, but from what I've read studies do indicate that victims of childhood abuse, physical and/or sexual, have much higher rates of running away (and one study I found said that those who run away from abuse have higher rates of all sorts of problems like further victimization, homelessness, addiction - the works). But still, it doesn't show that victims of abuse necessarily run away. Add to that, the longstanding history (at least in the U.S.) of women killing their abusers and going to prison. Take the cases of Chrystul Kizer, Maddesyn George, Tanisha Williams ... there's a great article about it here: https://newrepublic.com/article/160589/ ... -survivors

The anecdotes about Lizzie and Andrew's relationship aren't necessarily being taken as sexual - but the fact that there are multiple anecdotes about their "special love" for one another begs the question whether that was a common way to describe close parent-child relationships or if that is unique/idiosyncratic to the description of Lizzie and Andrew's relationship, and if so - that opens up some more questions....gosh that's really the only thing this case 100% has, isn't it? Questions upon questions...

[camgarsky4]

I'm unfamiliar with much, if any documentation of this 'special love'. Setting aside the ring, what other clear and unbiased examples do we have of their emotional connection one way or the other?

[swinell]

I'm unfamiliar with much, if any documentation of this 'special love'. Setting aside the ring, what other clear and unbiased examples do we have of their emotional connection one way or the other?

Ah - "unbiased" is the real kicker there. Almost all of the examples I can find are post-trial. Will return later with pg. #s

[PossumPie]

Right. The examples of the closeness of their relationship are anecdotal. I read somewhere (I can't remember where) that Andrew brightened up and ran upstairs when he found out Lizzie was back from Europe. This REALLY doesn't fit with all we know about Andrew...but I guess it could be true.

Sexual assault victims do all respond differently, but I would say it is rare for an incest survivor to remain living with the perpetrator after they were old enough to move out. Sadly many turn to drugs, prostitution, risky behaviors, and pick abusers as spouses. There are multiple levels of sexual abuse from a one-time groping by a distant uncle to regular sexual contact by a father. Obviously, people will deal differently depending on the severity. I've NOT seen enough evidence from Lizzie's behavior, the rumor-mill, or any testimony that any inappropriate contact was happening.

Keep this in mind: What sells more books-a woman who murders her parents because of horrific sexual abuse and incest, hidden dark secrets from the past, illegitimate sons, and lesbian trysts...
or a woman murders her parents for money? The mundane may be the most likely answer, but not the most titillating.

[camgarsky4]

If Lizzie felt any true love for Andrew.....fatherly, special or otherwise, I just can't imagine she wouldn't be aware that she made him miserable with her participation in the apparently toxic family environment. The fit she threw when he spent $1,500 helping out his wife's family shows remarkably self-centered behavior. Based on the dates (recollection, might be wrong....4th st. Summer - Ferry St. Fall time), the 'fit' went on for months until Andrew countered 4th St. with Ferry St. Even then she continued to call Abby, Mrs. Borden. That is not normal at all.

I think Lizzie never let go of perceived slights and is one of those people whose very presence creates an under-current of tension. It is that aura that generated some of the very general, but negative descriptions of Lizzie from folks at that time and likely led to her later life difficulty sustaining close relationships. Swinell, you would have read of several of these friendship dissolutions in Parallel Lives (including her sister).

Cyrus Rouseville (JJ pg 258) told the newspaper and Jennings that Andrew told him "His family affairs were such this summer that he would not be able to go." As we all know, for some reason, Andrew bought back Ferry St. from the sisters for $5k....just 2-3 weeks before the murders. I view the Ferry St transaction, Rouseville's quote and Emma's unprecedented multi-week trip as solid indicators of the high level toxicity in that household.

And then the occupants of that household are murdered.

[PossumPie]

If Lizzie felt any true love for Andrew.....fatherly, special or otherwise, I just can't imagine she wouldn't be aware that she made him miserable with her participation in the apparently toxic family environment. The fit she threw when he spent $1,500 helping out his wife's family shows remarkably self-centered behavior. Based on the dates (recollection, might be wrong....4th st. Summer - Ferry St. Fall time), the 'fit' went on for months until Andrew countered 4th St. with Ferry St. Even then she continued to call Abby, Mrs. Borden. That is not normal at all.

I think Lizzie never let go of perceived slights and is one of those people whose very presence creates an under-current of tension. It is that aura that generated some of the very general, but negative descriptions of Lizzie from folks at that time and likely led to her later life difficulty sustaining close relationships. Swinell, you would have read of several of these friendship dissolutions in Parallel Lives (including her sister).

Cyrus Rouseville (JJ pg 258) told the newspaper and Jennings that Andrew told him "His family affairs were such this summer that he would not be able to go." As we all know, for some reason, Andrew bought back Ferry St. from the sisters for $5k....just 2-3 weeks before the murders. I view the Ferry St transaction, Rouseville's quote and Emma's unprecedented multi-week trip as solid indicators of the high level toxicity in that household.

And then the occupants of that household are murdered.

Agreed. We discussed previously sociopathic personality disorder which Lizzie may well have had. There are no guilt feelings for any action and all that the person does ultimately benefits them alone. For all that we know Lizzie's "love" for her father was to manipulate money from him. It certainly wasn't "normal" for two adult daughters to live in their rooms, take most of their meals alone, and not do things as a family.

[swinell]

Very true, Camgarsky! The only people Lizzie/Lizbeth was able to maintain relationships with were on her payroll

[camgarsky4]

....and children.

Two groups of folks that didn't dare or know to challenge her control tendencies.

I do want to read more on Grace Howe and try to understand the dynamics of that relationship. Grace may have very well had a stronger personality than Lizzie and Lizzie was ok with that. Just speculation.