The Bordens and JonBenet Ramsey

[PossumPie]

This time of year, I always revisit the JonBenet case. It is eerily similar to the Borden case. A wealthy family. A closed house where a killer SHOULD have been detected. Bumbling police, contaminated evidence, "search the house" the body is found hours later and NOT by the police. No conviction, everyone believes the family was more involved than originally thought. Tons of evidence, compromised, conflicting, and unclear. A family that never really obsessed over catching the real killer. A suspected housekeeper. The murder occurred with a family member mere feet away but hearing "nothing" Neighbors and friends allowed in to completely contaminate the crime scene. Political pressure to tie law enforcement's arms.
We are 25 years out from the murder of JonBenet and nowhere near a solution. SO much misinformation...Family exonerated by DNA evidence (NO, the DNA obtained from her underwear was incidental as other panties in sealed packages had DNA from workers who manufactured them. SO many people handled, hugged, touched, and moved her body that any DNA is useless.
Anyone here also ponder the Ramsey case?

[camgarsky4]

Possum - your question cracked me up. Literally last week I decided JonBenet Ramsey was going to be my next 'project' to join the Borden's. Debated all the standard mysteries.....JFK, Lindbergh, Black Dahlia, etc. Picked the case closest to now.

Figured I'd read up on the case after the holidays.

[PossumPie]

Possum - your question cracked me up. Literally last week I decided JonBenet Ramsey was going to be my next 'project' to join the Borden's. Debated all the standard mysteries.....JFK, Lindbergh, Black Dahlia, etc. Picked the case closest to now.

Figured I'd read up on the case after the holidays.

JonBenet has it's own challenges. Bolder Colorado was a "progressive" town, and much of the police investigation was hindered by the liberal approach to law enforcement. The investigators chasing the real killer were hampered by prosecution and political factions. So much politics involved that the real killer will probably never be found. The ransom note is key: The bizarre nature of the praising of John's company while berating the USA is almost child-like. The maternalistic "get enough rest" and other components make it obviously a woman's note. The asking of $118,000 (almost the exact amount of John's Christmas bonus) is beyond coincidental. Money definitely buys you good legal advice and often a "Get out of jail free" card.
Have fun with that case!!!

[dalcanton]

Years ago, I was totally obsessed with the JBR case, so much that I actually took a trip to Boulder, CO, to see the house and all the Ramsey haunts, including where John worked. Also ate at Jon Benet’s favorite restaurant and visited the hardware store where the infamous duct tape was purchased. I’ll have to revisit the case again.

[Kat]

Wow, I probably would have done the same: revisit the area surrounding that crime, if I lived nearby.
I was very into the whole story, read all about it, collected news items on the crime, watched all the documentaries, even had The Enquirer coverage.
There was a little note at the top of my tv screen this past weekend about, what I thought, was a new documentary coming up, but it might be one that was shown earlier this year? Does anyone know?

[I also followed the Caylee Anthony case very closely, that was nearby in Orlando.
Read all that, watched all that, and even remember where I was when the verdict was revealed.]

But, apropos of your post: there was also a special disappearance case here of Jennifer Kesse (a grownup) that's never been solved. I had a dream about it, and followed the leads from my dream and ended up within a few yards of where her abandoned car had been found. I did know the name of the condo property, but did not know where it was, or how to get there- just followed my dream. I felt so strongly I could find her, I had to act, I was compelled...so I know what that feels like. The disappearance occurred in 2006, but my dream was in 2008.

[Reasonwhy]

The case of JonBenet Ramsey is much more poignant than the Borden case, because her life was cut off when she was so terribly young. I did study it, but now think it is solved. I wish it still felt like a mystery to me, because what I believe to be the truth is so horribly sad: Burke, her brother, killed her.

Three things convinced me—
1. A. James Kolar’s book, Foreign Faction
2. “The Case of: JonBenét Ramsey,” the 2016 CBS documentary miniseries (aired on two nights)
3. The 2016 interview by Dr. Phil McGraw of Burke Ramsey.

If you haven’t delved into it much already, Camgarsky, prepare yourself for an interesting but truly tragic case.

[Kat]

I haven't stopped thinking about this case since I read the first post, tonight.
Not sure Burke did it, but would not rule him out. And I definitely was also concentrating on, and recalling, his interview with Dr Phil. His demeanor was so inappropriate, and he seemed so juvenile for his age at the time of his appearance. (By then, he had lost 2 sisters.)
I suppose, if he did it, then the rest was cover-up by the parents? Note written by Patsy, body found by John with some staging?
I do think Patsy was possibly suffering from brain cancer long before it was revealed, and that she was not in her right mind.

[PossumPie]

Burke has Autism spectrum disorder. His behavior, mannerisms, and language scream of some type of autistic problem. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt with his smiling inappropriately during Dr. Phil. It is, though, a possibility that he killed her by hitting her with the flashlight, and the family covered it up. At 6 years old, she was still wetting/defecating in her bed and clothes. This is a sign of either sexual abuse or extreme stress. Patsy could have snapped and hit her but I doubt that theory.
The dismissal of suspicion on the family simply because of touch DNA not matching them was a major blunder. DNA isn't magical, it is in our skin cells that slough off from incidental contact. Right now we all probably have DNA on us that is from brushing up against a stranger in the street, etc. The "stranger did it" camp ignore a spiderweb across the only basement window a perp. could have entered.
I find the case sad because her mother and grandmother were reliving their past glories through JonBenet, pushing, forcing, and threatening her deeper and deeper into the child beauty pageant world. The sexualization of a 5 year old is sickening, and encourages pedophiles. I often wonder even if they were innocent of the killing, did either mom or grandma ever lay away wondering if the pageant world was the cause of her death?
I tried years ago to find an intelligent forum where her case was discussed, but found nothing but a bunch of sites where people who knew nothing of the facts posted "I hope the killer burns in hell" Perhaps I'll try again...

[Kat]

I think it is telling that her gravestone gives the date of her death as 12-25, Christmas. How could they know that? We don't know that! Either they did know that, or they were still eliciting sympathy from the public (forever, written in stone) - 'look our little child was killed on Chistmas!'
It's extra sad that she never even had her own name, or life, for that matter.
Jon for John, Benet for Bennet, and of course her father's last name. And the life her mother wished she herself had...it makes me sad, and mad.

[PossumPie]

As a tie-in to the Bordens, and so this thread doesn't morph into something that is "off-topic" in a Borden forum, So much in both cases were bungled due to a police shortage (holiday staffing for Ramsey, police picnic for Borden), wealth of the victims afforded some "leeway" with suspects not having to give immediate police interviews, and mobs cross contaminating the crime scenes. It could be said that both the Ramsey case and the Borden case were botched in the first 8 hours of the investigation beyond all repair. Both cases had an incredible amount of time that the killer was in the house: Ramsey killer took a pad of paper, found a pen, sat at the table and practiced a ransom note, then wrote a rambling incredible 3-page note that would have taken a long time to formulate and write. To get JonBenet from her bedroom, go down the stairs, through the first floor, down the basement stairs, through the maze of rooms in the basement, incapacitate her, fashion a garotte, strangle her, fracture her skull, and cover her would have taken well over an hour. The Borden's were killed over 1 hour apart and probably closer to 1.5 hours, with the killer still in the house.
While I tend to believe with 90% certainty that Lizzie was guilty, I am far less sure in the Ramsey case. I've heard both very convincing sides: the Detective Smit/Family side that there is evidence an intruder did it, and the Steve Thomas/ police side that one of the Ramsey's did it. Both sides make sense with an open mind.

[camgarsky4]

Yep. In both cases, the wealth factor drove both the legal hurdles and the publicity/transparency/interference factor for the police.

[Kat]

I'll sneak in here once again, then, just to give a heads up: "How It Really Happened," on channel HLN (the home of perpetual Foensic Files) has a 2 hr repeat from 2017, "Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey?" 7-9 pm EST. But not sure who would want to watch that on Christmas Eve?

[Steve887788]

I wonder if anyone has followed the Borden or the Ramsey - "money trail / favors" From the suspects to the police. Was there one that stands out ?

[PossumPie]

I wonder if anyone has followed the Borden or the Ramsey - "money trail / favors" From the suspects to the police. Was there one that stands out ?

I've never seen any evidence that money was blatantly used in either case, but status sure was. The Andrew Borden owned/controlled much in that town, his family was afforded more curtesy that a working class family would have. Asking when would be convenient to search for clues, not collecting evidence until days later? A poor family would have had their house torn apart and they would have been taken right to the police station for questioning.
The Ramseys were also very wealthy and higher-ups in the Bolder police/D.A.'s office didn't want to ruffle their feathers. Their daughter's body was found in their house and they were not compelled to give a testimony until weeks later? On their own terms? They controlled the case from the start-talking to Barbra Waters on TV before they had talked with the police! Not one law enforcement officer secured the scene. Patsy Ramsey hung up with 911 and immediately called hoards of her friends to descend on a crime scene and destroy all evidence. The Ransom note said "talk to anyone and she dies" yet all the Ramsey's did all morning was to talk to people! The most ironic picture taken that day was the house with "CRIME SCENE DO NOT CROSS" tape up. by the time that went up, friends and family had descended on the scene. I don't necessarily think they were guilty, but their wealth/power muddied the situation so that a real killer will probably never be caught. "We're rich and powerful, we will direct this investigation" caused many lost hours trying to clarify what really happened.