Bridget

[Salmynka]

Hi,

1st post and new to the board so hi :D I wondered i anyone could point me in the direction of a discussion about Bridget?

the reason being Im currently listening to the Trial audio transcript and Bridget claims to 'never go into the front part of the house' never go into the girls bedrooms never go up the front stairs or into the parlour etc and Im struggling to believe that.

That would mean that the Borden girls cleaned out their grates, swept their carpets, swept the stairs, washed their windows and generally did tasks, that most women of their position, would never do... Especially carpets and grates... She also claims in the trial that she never heard any arguments etc and again I have a hard time believing that.

Im ondering what other peoples thoughts on those fairly unbelivable claims are and if they are unlikely to be the truth why tell those lies?

[PossumPie]

Hi,

1st post and new to the board so hi :D I wondered i anyone could point me in the direction of a discussion about Bridget?

the reason being Im currently listening to the Trial audio transcript and Bridget claims to 'never go into the front part of the house' never go into the girls bedrooms never go up the front stairs or into the parlour etc and Im struggling to believe that.

That would mean that the Borden girls cleaned out their grates, swept their carpets, swept the stairs, washed their windows and generally did tasks, that most women of their position, would never do... Especially carpets and grates... She also claims in the trial that she never heard any arguments etc and again I have a hard time believing that.

Im ondering what other peoples thoughts on those fairly unbelivable claims are and if they are unlikely to be the truth why tell those lies?

Welcome Salmynka,
I don't remember Bridget saying "never". It was the practice of the household that Mr. and Mrs. Borden, Lizzie, and Emma all took care of their own bedrooms. I'm sure Bridget went upstairs many times but just didn't clean. There were many levels of servents, from the super-wealthy families who had butlers, chambermaids, etc., and never did any work, to servants such as Bridget who cooked meals, cleaned downstairs and did other odd chores while the household helped. The "Position" that the Borden girls were in was definitely not upper class. While they didn't have to work outside the home, they lived a middle-class lifestyle. One noted exception was Lizzie's trip to Europe--something no middle-class person could have afforded.

[camgarsky4]

Hi Salmynka!! Welcome!

Just tacking onto Possum's good answer.....Bridget's primary responsibilities were cooking and laundry. Of course, she would tackle whatever random assignments Abby would give her.

Remember that Abby was wandering throughout the house that morning dusting and making guest room beds.

Regarding the upper story windows, my personal opinion is that the hired help from the farm would come help with those due to the need for high ladders. Can't imagine going up a ladder two stories in a dress that came to my ankles!! Yikes!

[PossumPie]

Hi Salmynka!! Welcome!

Just tacking onto Possum's good answer.....Bridget's primary responsibilities were cooking and laundry. Of course, she would tackle whatever random assignments Abby would give her.

Remember that Abby was wandering throughout the house that morning dusting and making guest room beds.

Regarding the upper story windows, my personal opinion is that the hired help from the farm would come help with those due to the need for high ladders. Can't imagine going up a ladder two stories in a dress that came to my ankles!! Yikes!

LOL...I agree. Remember, 1800s had no paved roads/streets so dust was WAY more of a problem than it is today. "dusting" was a necessity to keep ahead of the road dirt, and cleaning the outside of windows had to be regular. I have a sunroom and only wash the outside of windows twice/year, but they could use it more often, and I have no dirt roads nearby! I also agree that they had the farmhands clean the second story windows regularly. Bridget was a help, for a small salary and room and board. Often, servents like that only got room/board and a small amount of spending money, Bridget was slightly better paid than the average at the time.

[Salmynka]

thanks for the welcome and replies :)

regarding the windows I meant inside lol :)

[Salmynka]

she also said that the family never had any disagrements, and that seems to be at odds with what we know about the family?

[camgarsky4]

Salmynka -- we all agree with you on wondering if Bridget lied about family fights or if they did their fighting via body language and ignoring each other.

Bridget was consistent with how she handled the window washing that day. The only windows she didn't clean the inside of were the parlor windows. All the other 5 windows she did inside and out. Apparently she truly did not have ANY responsibilities IN the Parlor.

[PossumPie]

she also said that the family never had any disagrements, and that seems to be at odds with what we know about the family?

Remember-- Servents saw/heard much and were in part paid to "ignore" what they heard/saw. Downton Abbey is fiction, but accurate in how servents reputations hinged on what they "ignored" from the family.

[Salmynka]

she also said that the family never had any disagrements, and that seems to be at odds with what we know about the family?

Remember-- Servents saw/heard much and were in part paid to "ignore" what they heard/saw. Downton Abbey is fiction, but accurate in how servents reputations hinged on what they "ignored" from the family.

thats a good point

[Salmynka]

Salmynka -- we all agree with you on wondering if Bridget lied about family fights or if they did their fighting via body language and ignoring each other.

Bridget was consistent with how she handled the window washing that day. The only windows she didn't clean the inside of were the parlor windows. All the other 5 windows she did inside and out. Apparently she truly did not have ANY responsibilities IN the Parlor.

that is what she seems to say in her account, no responibilities in the parlour or upstairs

[Kat]

Hello! Do you also have a transcript of any of Bridget's testimony, may I ask? That would be worthwhile to have, I think.

Anyway, here is what she says about her work at the Bordens, in the Preliminary Hearing and the trial. These are good questions! I agree she would have heard the family interactions. And btw, they had radiators, so no grates to clean out at least.

Prelim
Bridget
Q. What were your duties?
A. Well, I done the washing and ironing and cooking.

Q. Anythingelse besides that?
A. A little sweeping and scrubbing.

Q. Which part of the house did you have the sweeping of?
A. I had the front hall to do, the front entry.

Q. What days did you sweep the front hall?
A. Every other week, Friday.

Q. Only once in two weeks?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Did you have any other duties in the front part of the house, except sweeping the front hall?
A. No Sir.

Q. Did you have the care of any of the beds?
A. No Sir.

Q. None of them at all?
A. No Sir.

Q. Did you have any duties in any of the bed rooms up stairs?
A. No Sir.
//////////////

Trial
Bridget
Q. Who did the chamber work in Mr. Borden's room and Mrs. Borden's?
A. I don't know. Themselves did it. I don't know which of them.

Q. That is, you didn't do it?
A. No, sir.

Q. Did either of the daughters do it?
A. No, sir.
.............
Q. Do you know who took charge of the room in the front part of the house?
A. Well, when Miss Emma was home she done it. When Mr. Morse was there and when Mrs. Borden had any of her friends there, I guess she done it or helped do it, that is, as far as I can remember.

Q. That is the front chamber you are talking about?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, do you know who took care of the rooms, belonging to the daughters or
occupied by the daughters?
A. Themselves took care of them, as far as I know.

Q. And did that care include sweeping and dusting as well as making the beds?
A. Yes, sir. I didn't have anything to do with the rooms.

Q. You had nothing of any kind to do with any bed-room?
A. No, sir.
...........
Q. Can you tell who took charge of the parlor sweeping, dusting and cleaning of it?
A. Miss Lizzie in the summer.

Q. Did you have anything to do with it?
A. No, sir.

---she was asked "Did you have the care of any of the chambers?"/ Her reply "No, sir."/ Then she was asked "Except your own, I suppose?" /and she answered "That is all."

[Kat]

I'd also like to warn you about Bridget in "The Witness Statements." There was an unscrupulous couple who ran a detective agency (for money) who wrote and disseminated fabricated "information" by and about Bridget, named the McHenrys. Nellie, especially was believed.
Anyway, we recently had a discussion on the Forum about this, so if you search, and find this stuff please be careful about what you are reading.
For instance, here is a link
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6328&p=100762&hilit=Nellie#p100762

And here is an example of what you would want to weigh carefully, as you research:

[Kat]

I don't know if anyone here has had any run-ins with a private detective, but I did. He lied to me 3 times, and argued with me while parked in a van in my driveway spying on my neighbor! I couldn't believe it! How weird!
I told him to leave several times and then he said "wouldn't you want a neighbor who was breaking the law exposed? You wouldn't want them living near you, would you?"
Ooooohhh! I was mad by then! I said "you lied to me, and I live with these people around here and I know them and if you don't git, I'm calling the police!" Very shady characters.... They will say anything!

[camgarsky4]

I'm going to use this thread to post some miscellaneous info on Bridget for easier reference in the future.

Pretty sure we are all aware of the info pasted below, but still interesting that it was not unusual to call your domestic servant a 'standard' name (Maggie) vs. their given name (Bridget). Below is an excerpt from a article on 1800 Victorian Domestic Servants.

The Borden saga provides us another example of a New Englander calling his servant "Maggie". Pg 71 in Jennings Journals, Benjamin Cowgill references his "girl Maggie".

That said, Bridget had lived there for almost 3 years and the elder Borden's called her Bridget. I suspect the sisters called her Maggie because that is how their higher-end 'friends' referred to their domestic help and when you aspire to be someone else, one tends to replicate behaviors.

The Life of Domestic Servants in Victorian England
FROM THE LECTURE SERIES: VICTORIAN BRITAIN
December 1, 2017
By Patrick Allitt, PhD, Emory University

"It was quite common to have a certain name associated with a certain job. The scullery maid is called Mary. If you hire Gwyneth, you call her Mary because she is the scullery maid. You couldn’t even depend on maintaining your name for the purposes of your working life."

[Salmynka]

when Bridget was residing in the jail keepers house, ater the crimes, was she there for some sort of protection?

[PossumPie]

when Bridget was residing in the jail keepers house, ater the crimes, was she there for some sort of protection?

"Bridget left the Borden home shortly after the murders to stay with her cousin, Patrick Harrington, at 95 Division Street in Fall River. Later, she was hired by Josiah A. Hunt (see Profile), the jail keeper at the Bristol County House of Correction in New Bedford. Bridget remained with the Hunt family until the Borden trial was over" (Rebello, 1999.)

[Salmynka]

Bridget remained with the Hunt family until the Borden trial was over" (Rebello, 1999.)

yes, thats the reason i was wondering if it was for some sort of protection?

[camgarsky4]

Someone else (Kat :))may need to validate, but I believe Bridget was instructed to stay in the area as a key witness for the prosecution and my impression is that 'law enforcement' felt compelled to provide her a means of sustenance and a roof over her head.

Salmynka -- have you had a chance to invest in any of the good, fact based books on the case. Besides the source documents (which you can find on the sister website 'Lizzie Borden Virtual Library'), I highly recommend the "Case against Lizzie Borden" by William Spencer as a good detailed book to capture the full story of the case. Once you've digested that you might choose to acquire some of the source books like Jennings Journals, Knowlton Papers, etc.

[Reasonwhy]

Hi, Salmynka, and a bit-delayed welcome to the forum (just went through a winter storm and a couple of days without power). I like your curiosity! You are asking good questions :) Camgarsky’s reading recommendations are quite solid. I would add a shorter work, David Kent’s Forty Whacks, if Spencer seems too long at first.

To add to your question about security for Bridget, the prosecution wanted to keep her within sight, and away from the defense, including Lizzie and Emma. I think they feared an attempt to buy Bridget off.

Please feel free to weigh in on any posts you see here and add topics as you wish. Fresh minds are stimulating to the discussions. Hope you enjoy it here!

[Kat]

(just went through a winter storm and a couple of days without power).

---partial
Please tell all, in Stay To Tea?

[Kat]

Providence Journal
Aug 13, 1892
LIZZIE BORDEN ARRAIGNED.
Hearing Fixed for Aug. 22 — John V.
Morse and Bridget Sullivan Held
Under Bonds as Witnesses
......The District Attorney now addressed the Court again. He sent [sic] the importance of Mr. Morse and Bridget Sullivan to the case of the State was so great that he wished to move that they be placed under bonds to guarantee their presence inside the Court's jurisdiction.
Judge Blaisdell said he would grant the request, and asked how much the bonds should be.
Mr. Knowlton - "Three hundred dollars is the usual amount, but on account of the gravity of this case I suggest the amount be $500. Mr. Morse can procure bail we suppose, but we don't know about Bridget Sullivan."
The servant girl was called from the corner where she sat, and Mr. Morse got up. Bridget was as pale as a ghost and her eyes plainly said she did not understand what was going on. The order of the Court was read to the man and woman, they standing side by side. They were then led across the room by the Marshal and given seats far away from the outside door.
Mr. Jennings had two of the Notary Publics whom he keeps at his office in the court room, and he at once dispatched one of them down town for a bondsman or bondsmen."

----Yes, Morse was allowed to return to his business interests in Iowa in December under bond, while Bridget stayed locally. So, I’m not sure if her bond was paid, or if she served out her bond by working for the court system. The Fall River Globe says, Aug 22,1892, that John C. Milne was Morse's "bondsman." I didn't find a record of Bridget's bondsman, but she did have a lawyer. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to look that up.
Do you have an idea that she needed “protection?”

[Reasonwhy]

(just went through a winter storm and a couple of days without power).

---partial
Please tell all, in Stay To Tea?

Look in the Privy

[Reasonwhy]

----Yes, Morse was allowed to return to his business interests in Iowa in December under bond, while Bridget stayed locally. So, I’m not sure if her bond was paid, or if she served out her bond by working for the court system. The Fall River Globe says, Aug 22,1892, that John C. Milne was Morse's "bondsman." I didn't find a record of Bridget's bondsman, but she did have a lawyer. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to look that up.

—partial post by Kat


Found this, posted by “diana,” Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:42 pm:

The following is from Bridget's testimony at the trial and probably relates to the bond you were talking about, Harry.

The defence appears to be raising the point that she had been in the prosecution's camp, so to speak, since shortly after the murders -- what with Hilliard and Detective Seaver as her sureties and visits from Knowlton.

Q. Where have you been living since you left the Borden house?
A. In New Bedford.
Q. Where?
A. Mrs. Hunt's.
Q. Where does Mrs. Hunt live?
A. On Court Street.
Q. What is Mr. Hunt's occupation?
A. Keeper.
Q. Keeper of what?
A. Of the jail house.
Q. Then you have been at the jail, have you, helping work all the time?
A. Not in the jail.
Q. I don't mean in the jail, but at the keeper's house?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you have been there all the time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And are still there employed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You came right over from Fall River?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And have been there ever since?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were under a recognizance to appear here, were you, to appear here as a witness?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was the city marshal of Fall River one of your sureties?
A. Yes, sir; as I understand.
Q. And was the other one of the detectives, Mr. Seaver?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So you have been in the family of Mr. Hunt, the keeper of the jail, all the time since?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I suppose you have not had much talk with either Miss Lizzie or Miss Emma since that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or anybody representing them?
A. No, sir.
Q. You have seen some people that were on the other side of the case, haven't you?
A. I don't know what you mean.
Q. You have seen Mr. Knowlton since?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where?
A. At Mr. Hunt's. " (Source: Bridget, Trial).

So, looks like the City Marshall and Detective Seaver were her sureties.

[Salmynka]

thank you all for your responses :)

I appologise if I ask questions which have been answered ad nauseaum but there's a lot on the boards to go through! :)

[Salmynka]

Also im in the UK so some things 'Amerian' are less familiar to me :)

[PossumPie]

Also im in the UK so some things 'Amerian' are less familiar to me :)

Ask anything you wish! The "Search" box at the top is good for searching previous posts in the forum. As for the American Justice System, it was designed around the British system so it is very similar, we have "lawyers" instead of "barristers" and there are no separate solicitors here. The jury, judge, and most processes are the same. Some of the customs are different, but this was over 100 years ago so they are strange to us too. No question is too silly to ask. I agree with the others, read some reliable books, or better yet, the trial transcripts and witness testimony.
Here is a link to free access to all of the official documents:
https://lizzieandrewborden.com/primary- ... n-case.htm

Be careful with the books, some are so full of inaccuracies that they are more fiction than fact. Edward Radin's "Lizzie Borden: The Untold Story" and David Kent's "Forty Whacks" have entertainment value and are mostly factual. I like "A Private DIscrace" by Ms. Lincoln. Some questionable facts in it but a fun read. Lizzie Borden Past & Present by Rebello is probably the most factual but is a bit dry and sometimes hard to find. William Spencer's "Case Against Lizzie Borden" is good as well.
If you become obsessed with the case, you will find that all of the books have contradictions or factual errors, but generally those above are the most accurate. Almost all of the movies about Lizzie are wildly inaccurate as are most of the documentaries. The one done by the Smithsonian Channel and the one by the History Channel are fairly accurate and entertaining to watch. A bit of online searching can usually find them free to watch.

[Kat]

Yay! I got my Spencer today!! Now, if only my poor wrists are up to the challenge!
Years ago I had to give up Stephen King because of what I called "Stephen King Elbow." (I used to read lying down in bed.) Same for Paralell Lives. Rebello did not do that to me for some reason, and so I read his book straight through 2 X.

(Ppsssst, Salmynka- skip Lincoln until you're 50)

[PossumPie]

Yay! I got my Spencer today!! Now, if only my poor wrists are up to the challenge!
Years ago I had to give up Stephen King because of what I called "Stephen King Elbow." (I used to read lying down in bed.) Same for Paralell Lives. Rebello did not do that to me for some reason, and so I read his book straight through 2 X.

(Ppsssst, Salmynka- skip Lincoln until you're 50)

Yes, Lincoln's book is a dichotomy. On one hand, all of the wildly inaccurate talk of Lizzie having "epilepsy" which caused her to kill is medically absurd. In between that theory is a colorful take by someone who was a child while Lizzie was alive. I admit, much of her speculation is just that speculation but it is perhaps best saved for when one has a firm knowledge of the facts of the case first.

Thinking about it more, the most accurate books generally are not easy reading, while the casual, fun books often have a lot of misinformation. A casual reader who picks up a popular Borden book may end up believing in illegitimate sons committing the murder, Lizzie in a seizure state, or any number of other unsubstantiated things. One of my frustrations as a science lover is that accurate science is often complicated and dry, so people get their "facts" about science from those who know the least about it. That is why even in 2022 we have quite a large group of people who believe that the earth is flat.