Lizzie Immediately Suspected By Aunt?

[Reasonwhy]

Was Lizzie suspected as soon as mid-afternoon on Thursday., Aug.4, by her aunt?

From The Jennings Journals, p. 223:

“Entry Recorded by Arthur S. Phillips:
Luther
Morse — Mrs. Joseph — says she was in kitchen & there was a lady there who she didn’t know. Mrs Danl Golden & Mrs Thos Pitt were there. Bridget asked by Jos M if L had changed her dress that day. She said “no — she had on the same dress all day. Said it was a pink one. This was between 2:30 & 3:30 PM. —
Biographical Note: Born in Fall River, Mary Louisa Morrison Morse was the sister to John Vinnicum and Sarah Anthony Morse, and thus aunt to Emma L. and Lizzie A. Borden.”

Why would Lizzie’s aunt be asking Bridget about whether Lizzie had changed her dress, unless she wanted to know if she might have changed out of one stained by the blood of murder?

[Reasonwhy]

…And a couple of follow-up questions:

1) Did this conversation indeed occur on that Thursday afternoon, so soon following the murders? Mrs. Morse could have been speaking on another day, referring back to that Thursday, but the days when Bridget was present to be questioned by this aunt were limited after the crimes.

Even if on a day other than Thursday, this is quite soon for a family member to be doubting/suspecting Lizzie. It is suggestive that extended family felt Lizzie could be capable of the murders. Why?

2) Recall Charles Sawyer’s comments, also recorded by Phillips, of what he overheard Bridget telling Officer Medley about the dress:
"Officer Medley asked Bridget about Lizzie's wrapper -- if it was the same one she had on earlier and she said Yes. Think there were spots in the dress. Am nearsighted some anyway." (The Jennings Journals, p.261.)

So, here is Bridget (reported to be) saying to a second person—Medley—in addition to Aunt Morse, that Lizzie’s wrapper was the same one she had on earlier, that she had never changed.
Either we draw the conclusion that Bridget is hopelessly confused about Lizzie’s dress change—or, that Bridget is lying to try to protect Lizzie.

Remember that later, during the preliminary hearing and again at trial, Bridget claims not to remember what dress Lizzie wore that morning…

[camgarsky4]

I don't recall ever reading that a Mrs. Morse, Mrs. Golden and Mrs. Pitt were at the house that day immediately after the murders. Will go back and reread that afternoon more closely. My mind is not thinking Bridget and Lizzie hung out after Lizzie retreated to her bedroom on the 4th, so not sure when Bridget would have seen Lizzie in the wrapper.

Medley was grilling Bridget within an hour of the double murder. Hard to nail down the time context of comments, but pretty positive Bridget hadn't seen the wrapper that Lizzie changed into at the time Medley was quizzing her. Bridget didn't go into Lizzie's room normally, so hard to imagine she would under these conditions.

My presumption in the Medley interview is that Bridget was meaning the 'paint' dress with her answers.

[Reasonwhy]

I do recall tea was brought up to Lizzie in her room by one of her lady friends, so likely Bridget was not sent to Lizzie’s room for food deliveries, and Bridget would not have seen the pink wrapper in that circumstance. But, at anytime Lizzie might have come from her room—to speak to Winward’s about funeral arrangements? To use the water closet in the basement?—and Bridget could have seen her.

Camgarsky, when you say, “My presumption in the Medley interview is that Bridget was meaning the 'paint' dress with her answers,” that seems to make sense, to me. But, why then, later, did Bridget tell Mrs. Morse “… she had on the same dress all day. Said it was a pink one”?

Just trying to puzzle this out with you. I have not seen those ladies’ visit mentioned anywhere before. Yet this is JJ, and thus, new information for us. Does anyone know of any reason Mrs. Morse should be considered unreliable?

[camgarsky4]

Couple of quick snippets.....to your earlier point, the way the notation is written is not clear at all that Aug 4th is being referenced to when these ladies were at the house. We'll need to check out if these folks all attended the pre-funeral on Saturday.

Also the notation makes it sound like Mrs. Morse's husband was who asked Bridget about the dress. I don't think there is any dispute or challenge that Lizzie changed into the pink wrapper after going up to her room post-murders. Alice Russell was clear on that. So this feels like either a confused Bridget or a mishearing of what Bridget said or meant when it comes to the 'all day' portion. At least that is the way I interpret at this point.....

I would like to figure out when it is likely all these ladies were over visiting because it must have been before Bridget moved out that weekend.

[Reasonwhy]

….My mind is not thinking Bridget and Lizzie hung out after Lizzie retreated to her bedroom on the 4th, so not sure when Bridget would have seen Lizzie in the wrapper.

—partial post, by Camgarsky

I got this question answered anyway—Bridget did see Lizzie in the pink wrapper Thursday!

From Trial, p. 271 (Robinson is questioning Bridget):
“Q. Have you any recollection at all what dress she had on any part of Thursday?
A. No, sir, excepting the afternoon I went to her room and she had on a pink wrapper.
Q. A pink wrapper in the afternoon?
A. Yes, sir.”

(Wonder why Bridget went to Lizzie’s room?)

[Reasonwhy]

Also the notation makes it sound like Mrs. Morse's husband was who asked Bridget about the dress.

—partial post by Camgarsky

I considered that, too, but the entry by the editors is headed:
Mrs. Joseph Luther Morse )1831-1911)
The book’s format is to head the entry by naming the person about whom Phillips or Jennings is commenting. Thus, here it seems editors judged Phillips was speaking about the Mrs., not the Mr.

Stefani, would you please clear this up for us? Thanks!

[Reasonwhy]

I would like to figure out when it is likely all these ladies were over visiting because it must have been before Bridget moved out that weekend.

—partial post, Camgarsky

Okay, I’ve found Bridget’s final days and nights at the Borden house, so we can narrow down when she was there to be questioned by Mrs. Morse.

From Trial, p. 294 (Moody is questioning Bridget):

"Q. Did you remain at the house after the homicide any length of time?
A. I stayed there. I went out Thursday night and slept out in Mrs. Miller's girl's house, and Friday night I slept in the house.
Q. You mean Mrs. Miller's house with the girl?
A. With the servant. I slept with her Thursday night.
Q. On Thursday night?
A. Yes, sir, and I came back Friday morning, stayed there all through the time and did the work and Friday night I went out and came back and slept in the house.
Q. In the Borden house?
A. Yes, sir, and Saturday night I left for good as I thought, and came back Monday and Mr. Miller said I should not leave the house until he came and took me out.
Q. You did not stay there Saturday night?
A. No, sir,---or Sunday night.
Q. You were not there Sunday morning?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you there Sunday at all for any part of the day?
A. No, sir, I came there Monday morning."

In fewer words, Bridget is there on these afternoons post-murder:
—Thursday
—Friday
—Saturday
—Monday (her last day at the house before she appeared on the first morning of the inquest, Tuesday, August 9th).

I agree a likely time for the conversation would have been at the house, around the time of the funeral service. Don’t know how to check names of who attended. Will look around…

[PossumPie]

If this is the defense attorney asking Lizzie's aunt what she heard spoken in the kitchen, perhaps J.J. was trying to find out what he was up against or whether they suspected Lizzie early on. It doesn't appear like Lizzie's aunt is pro-offering the information as gossip. If this conversation had been with the police...that would be a horse of a different color.

[Reasonwhy]

Could have been…unless, like Lizzie’s uncle-by-marriage Hiram Harrington, this aunt just did not trust Lizzie. I find it interesting that this also by-marriage aunt is on the other side of the family, that of Lizzie’s mother, the Morse’s.
Hard to escape the conclusion that there were Bordens and Morses who were able to imagine Lizzie could have murdered.

[Reasonwhy]

Could have been…unless, like Lizzie’s uncle-by-marriage Hiram Harrington, this aunt just did not trust Lizzie. I find it interesting that this also by-marriage aunt is on the other side of the family, that of Lizzie’s mother, the Morse’s.
Hard to escape the conclusion that there were Bordens and Morses who were able to imagine Lizzie could have murdered.

Please let me correct my post above: The Mrs. Morse discussed here, Mary Louisa Morrison Morse, is not aunt of the Borden sisters by marriage only—she was their mother, Sarah, and John Vinnicum Morse’s sister. The fact is, her husband was also related to Lizzie and Emma by blood—Joseph Luther Morse was Sarah and JVMorse’s cousin. (Please see The Jennings Journals, pp. 421 and 463).

[Reasonwhy]

Maybe we would find Mrs. Daniel Golden’s and Mrs. Thomas Pitt’s husbands among Andrew and Abbey’s pall bearers at the funeral? I’ll look on our forum first for that list; if not there, might it be in Rebello?

[Reasonwhy]

No joy.
Here’s the pallbearer list, posted by taosjohn on Nov. 13, 2014, at 12:30 pm (this is a partial post by taosjohn):

“….From the Fall River Daily Herald, reporting on the funeral:
Pallbearers included John H. Boone, businessman, Andrew J. Borden, Merchant Manufacturing Co. (same name as the deceased), Jerome Cook Borden, cousin, Richard A. Borden, prominent businessman, George W. Dean, businessman, Abraham Hart, treasurer of Union Savings Bank, and James Osborn, a member of the Central Congregational Church. For Abby Borden: Frank Almy, John Boone, Henry Buffinton, Simeon Chace, James Eddy and Henry Wells.”

[PossumPie]

Reasonwhy, EIther Bridget lied or misremembered about the dress in that statement heard by Lizzie's aunt, or that conversation took place before Lizzie put on the Pink wrapper.

Entry Recorded by Arthur S. Phillips:
Luther
Morse — Mrs. Joseph — says she was in kitchen & there was a lady there who she didn’t know. Mrs Danl Golden & Mrs Thos Pitt were there. Bridget asked by Jos M if L had changed her dress that day. She said “no — she had on the same dress all day.
--------------
PRELIMINARY HEARING
LIZZIE:
Q. What dress did you wear the day they were killed?
A. I had on a navy blue, sort of a bengaline or India silk skirt, with
a navy blue blouse. In the afternoon they thought I had better
change it. I put on a pink wrapper.
Q. Did you change your clothing before the afternoon?
A. No, sir.

[camgarsky4]

Parallel Lives discusses the funeral at the home on page 33-34.

The Sourcebook page 28 also provides some details on the funeral. Per the Fall River Daily Herald, the following people were at the home for the proceedings.
Mr. & Mrs. Southard Miller; Dr. Bowen & wife; Adelaide Churchill; Mary Ann Borden; Frank Miller; George Whitehead & wife; Mrs. Oliver Gray & daughter; Mrs. Fish; Mrs. Burt; William Wilcox & wife; Mrs. Restcome Case; Mrs. John Durfee and Hiram Harrington. In addition to the pallbearers Reasonwhy listed above, Reverend Buck and Dr. Adams were there with John Morse.

The article does say that around 75 folks attended. So that would be over double the names we've listed. But the 75 is clearly a guesstimate and hard to fathom the dining room, kitchen & sitting room could have held even the names listed, much less 2 or 3x that number.

So no clues on when those 3 ladies might have been at the house. Since Bridget left Saturday night and I strongly doubt they were allowed in the house on the day of the murders, that leaves Friday. Regarding Saturday and the funeral, it doesn't seem like the setting for ladies to be sitting around the kitchen table talking to Bridget about random stuff. The funeral would have created a more rigid and suppressed social setting.

So I think it was Friday or the story has some credibility issues.

[Reasonwhy]

…Or, could have been Monday. In the trial testimony excerpted above, Bridget does state she returned to the house on Monday.

If fabricated, odd that Mrs./Mr. Morse would have included those names of the other ladies present. Too, Phillips did note it, which he might not have done, if he suspected the credibility of the report.

Gosh, now I’m curious and I hope this is not one of those bits now lost in time.

Camgarsky, thanks for the research!

[camgarsky4]

Doubt it is fabrication. If not accurate, more likely listener misunderstanding of the context or poorly recalled.

I'll keep an eye open for related tidbits.....spending time browsing the Sourcebook.

[PossumPie]

I've read and re-read that JJ note a dozen times, people were vague and confusing in this case. What day? Could it have been the afternoon/evening of the murders? The crime scene was far from contained and people came and went.

Looking through testimony in the inquest and prelim. EVERYONE knew Lizzie changed dresses, including Lizzie who admitted it. Bridget would have had to have known that, perhaps she was scared and misremembered or perhaps she was scared of Lizzie and lied to protect herself. Even men who have a notorious reputation of not noticing clothing said she changed dresses even if they couldn't remember exactly what they looked like.
The GLARING contradiction in all of the testimonies is that while Lizzie said she had on a navy bengaline dress (fake silk) shiny fabric, everyone else said it was calico (unprocessed partially bleached cotton) which has no shine to it at all and is "bargain" fabric. Not even a man could confuse fake silk with calico...

PRELIMINARY

LIZZIE
Q. What dress did you wear the day they were killed?
A. I had on a navy blue, sort of a bengaline or India silk skirt, with a navy blue blouse. In the afternoon they thought I had better change it. I put on a pink wrapper.
Q. Did you change your clothing before the afternoon?
A. No, sir.

PRELIM

DOHERTY
Q. Do you remember how she was dressed?
A. I have a faint recollection of the dress.
Q. What is that faint recollection?
A. I think it was a calico dress. I cannot describe it much;
something similar to that lady’s over there writing, that kind of stuff,
whatever you call it.
Q. You mean the material, you do not mean the color?
A. I mean the material.

INQUEST

DR. BOWEN
Q. Do you recollect how Lizzie was dressed that morning?
A. It is pretty hard work for me. Probably if I could see a dress something like it, I could guess, but I could not describe. It was sort of a drab, or not much color to it to attract my attention, sort of a morning, calico dress I should judge.
Q. Did she change her dress?
A. She changed her dress sometime in the course of two or three hours. I noticed she had on a wrapper I think afterwards. She did not do that until she went up into her room to stay.

CHURCHILL
Q. What dress did she have on, Lizzie?
A. She had on a blue and white calico. Blue and white with a deeper navy blue diamond on it; of a deeper shade
of blue, this diamond was, as near as I can tell it; I am not observing of clothes
...
A. I cannot tell you how it was made. I know it hung loose here, because I know Miss Russell thought she
would open it to give Lizzie a better chance to breathe. Lizzie says “my clothes are loose"

did Lizzie not want Miss Russell too close to her clothes?

Here is a bengaline dress notice the silk-like shine that can't be confused with calico which is dull and a bargain fabric

Bengaline.jpg

[camgarsky4]

Good post and totally agree. Lizzie would not have gone out to the barn to look for anything with a Bengaline silk dress....certainly not without an apron on.

[PossumPie]

Excerpt from U.S. Dept. Justice paper 2009:
Document Title: Blood on Black- Enhanced Visualization of Bloodstains on Dark Surfaces
Author: Peter R. De Forest, Rebecca Bucht, Frani Kammerman, Brooke Weinger, Lauren Gunderson

"Visualization of bloodstains is trivial on white or lightly colored surfaces. However, on darkly colored or black surfaces, this visualization can be extremely difficult. The failure to visualize and thereby recognize blood and bloodstain patterns on darkly colored surfaces has had seriously adverse consequences for important criminal investigations. "

The government didn't experiment with photographing blood on Bengaline, but DID try silk, a very similar fabric: CLICK THE PICTURE TO ENLARGE

silk.jpg

The blood in the first picture is virtually invisible even at close inspection. Perhaps Lizzie inadvertently told the truth: The first dress that she had on was Navy Blue, dark Bengaline, then the calico, then the wrapper. She could have hung that Navy blue dress back up in the closet and it wouldn't show the blood droplets.

Lizzie admitted that she changed dresses but says from a fake-silk Bengaline to a pink and white wrapper.
All witnesses who remember her first dress corroborate that it was NOT a Bengaline which has a very noticeable shine but a calico that is not shiny.
Blood is almost invisible to the naked eye on a dark fabric. The 2009 Justice dept. paper which I cited goes on to explain techniques using Luminol and other ways to see blood on dark fabrics. They had none of that in 1892.
They searched Lizzies many dresses in the closet, with a cursory check, admitting that they didn't even look at all of the dresses.
They had to open blinds, remove a cloth, and open a window in order to have some light to see...It still wouldn't have been ideal lighting.
If Lizzie had put on a dark dress inside out, killed, turned it right-side-out, and hung it up in a dark corner of the closet, it would surely have been missed by investigators. Would she have taken that chance? I'm not sure.