Bloody pail & night time visit to the cellar

[camgarsky4]

Might be fun to discuss something more tactical in nature. Oddly enough, I don't recall this group talking thru our thoughts on what role the pail w/ bloody water & towels and/or Lizzie's solo walk to the cellar Thursday night might have played.

On previous threads, posters (and defense attorney Robinson) thought Lizzie might have gone back down to the washroom to dispose of something to do with hygiene that she might have been embarrassed to do with Alice. But if that was the purpose of the revisit, wouldn't she have gone to the water closet for a more private setting? I plead 'dumb male' if I'm missing something obvious.

Regarding the co-topic, what would she need a pail of water & towels for in the cellar? If she needed to wash her hands, face and the hatchet.....why not use the sink in the kitchen?

I do think it stretches coincidence that anything bloody in that house that day was wholly of an innocent nature, but I'd like to get more clarity on what role the pail and her revisit to the cellar played.

[PossumPie]

Might be fun to discuss something more tactical in nature. Oddly enough, I don't recall this group talking thru our thoughts on what role the pail w/ bloody water & towels and/or Lizzie's solo walk to the cellar Thursday night might have played.

On previous threads, posters (and defense attorney Robinson) thought Lizzie might have gone back down to the washroom to dispose of something to do with hygiene that she might have been embarrassed to do with Alice. But if that was the purpose of the revisit, wouldn't she have gone to the water closet for a more private setting? I plead 'dumb male' if I'm missing something obvious.

Regarding the co-topic, what would she need a pail of water & towels for in the cellar? If she needed to wash her hands, face and the hatchet.....why not use the sink in the kitchen?

I do think it stretches coincidence that anything bloody in that house that day was wholly of an innocent nature, but I'd like to get more clarity on what role the pail and her revisit to the cellar played.

We get the slang term "on the rag" from the pre-disposable menstrual pad days when women indeed used rags. These were washed and reused. Lizzie apparently kept a bucket of water in the basement to put the used rags in when she changed them. This was not unusual but in Victorian days NOBODY ever discussed menstruation. She discretely mentioned it to her doctor that she had her period, and he shut down the whole topic. Police didn't ask questions nor did they search the bucket. Today this seems inexcusable, but that's how prudish they were back then. It was observed by Dr. Dolan:
PRELIMINARY TESTIMONY
DR DOLAN
Q. Do you remember a pail in the cellar?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And were there some clothes or napkins in that pail?
A. Yes Sir, three.
Q. Did you examine them?
A. I examined them casually.
Q. Did you take them?
A. No Sir.
Q. Were they taken by anybody?
A. By the officer, officer Mullaly I think I told to take them.
Q. What was subsequently done with them, if you know?
A. Nothing; they were left down stairs in the marshal’s office, and
nothing further done with them.
Q. Did you examine them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you become satisfied that they had no connection with this
case?
A. Yes Sir.

[PossumPie]

WITTNESS STATEMENT
WILLIAM H. MEDLEY.
Fall River, August 4, 1892.
I inquired about some cloths which looked to me like small towels, they were covered with blood, and in a pail half filled with water, and in the wash cellar. She said that was all right; she had told the Doctor all about that. I then asked her how long the pail and its contents had been there; and she said three or four days. I asked the Doctor about it, and he said it had been explained to him, and was all right. I then had a talk with Bridget about the pail and it contents. She said she had not noticed the pail until that day, and it could not have been there two days before, or she would have seen it, and put the contents in the wash, as that was the day she had done the washing.
-------------

FLEET TESTIMONY

Q. You spoke of finding a pail near the foot of the stairs---I think you did, as you went down,---didn't you?
A. I did not. There was one there; I did not testify to that, I think.

Q. There was one there?
A. There was in the wash cellar.

Q. There was one there?
A. In the wash cellar.

Q. There were clothes in it?
A. There were.

MR. ROBINSON.
It is agreed that that pail contained the napkins which had been worn within a day or two by the defendant,---the ordinary monthly sickness---and as to that fact that is all we propose to put in. We do not care to go into the details. It is also agreed that the sickness ended Wednesday night.

That is all, Mr. Fleet.
----------

The testimony was that Lizzie's period ended Wednesday. I can only find hearsay evidence to this as it seems no one examined her... A few years ago Kat mentioned on this forum that they could have easily verified that Lizzie had her period b/c she would have been in custody 28 days later, when the next one occurred, BUT I find no documentation that they did verify her story.
Camgarsky, Lizzie would NOT have gone to the cellar for feminine hygiene reasons anytime after the day before the murders as her menses ended Wednesday. It also seems highly unlikely that a bucket of bloody rags would be allowed to sit for days in the basement. Bacteria would quickly cause wet menstrual rags to smell bad. Bridget stated that they were not there on Tuesday as she would have washed them.

[camgarsky4]

Bridget's comments to Medley are key. Since laundry was one of her two primary duties (along w/ cooking) and she clearly had a very set routine, I can't imagine she is wrong about not noticing a pail sitting in open view and her missing it 2 days previously. If one concludes that Bridget's recollection is accurate, then that means Lizzie fabricated her answer because it seems unlikely she would confuse using the pail in the previous 24-36 hours vs. 3-4 days.

Continuing with that line of reasoning, that would strongly imply that the bloody towels/water had a connection with the murders.

The best counter to this being incriminating against Lizzie is that Medley seemed to always be in the middle of potentially controversial, but unofficial evidence. However, the counter to that counter is that Lizzie's condition was also noted by Bowen and the defense attorney's at trial. So the only unsubstantiated information is whether Medley is accurate in the witness statements as to what Bridget told him about not seeing the pail August 2, two days before August 4.

[PossumPie]

If it had been a man accused of the killings, and a bucket of bloody rags soaking in water was found in the basement, that would have been used to prove he cleaned up after the murders. Because it was a woman, and she said it was menstrual blood, the whole avenue of reasoning was dropped. I know some people are queasy about the whole topic, but it is a natural process. Even back then they could have sampled the blood and looked for uterine epithelial cells under a microscope. Menses is blood, but it is also the inner lining of the uterus which is made up of cells much different looking under a microscope. The fact that apparently they confiscated the bucket and rags and put it in the basement of the marshal's office without further testing shows again that the police bungled part of the case. BTW, mention of "towels" or "napkins" means menstrual rags in the context of the testimony in this case. These terms were used interchangeably.

Camgarsky, you have a great point about Lizzie using a sink rather than a bucket. I believe that she did use the sink, but she knew that there was a possibility that whatever she used to wipe down and dry off would have bloodstains on them. Rather than trying to hide them, perhaps she hid them in plain sight with the excuse of the menstrual bucket which she could use to explain away any blood that was found.

Often, when I ask those who believe Lizzie to be innocent why they think that, their reason is that they don't believe that she had time to clean up. But even if it were a stranger, they would have to clean up first also. They couldn't walk down the street at midday covered in blood. I have argued that the amount of blood on the killer's clothes and body wouldn't be as much as people think, but certainly, their arms and face would have some droplets on them. Whoever killed the Bordens cleaned up enough to not be noticed. Dark clothing would hide the blood, but a quick wash of hands, arms, and face would be necessary.

[Reasonwhy]

These mens’ failure to properly examine or even thoroughly consider that pail evidence is striking. I wonder how much was due to sexist aversion versus over-courtesy extended to a “lady”?

[PossumPie]

These mens’ failure to properly examine or even thoroughly consider that pail evidence is striking. I wonder how much was due to sexist aversion versus over-courtesy extended to a “lady”?

LOL, as a male nurse, I have done my share of changing pads usually with severely disabled women with cerebra palsy or some such problem, but also in Labor & Delivery post vaginal delivery (which has its own unique features) but I'm sure that the men didn't want to go poking around in the bucket! Poor Bridget apparently was tasked with washing them out even though they were not hers...

[Kat]

That phrase "on the rag" was not something I ever heard before, and I will say it totally turned me off. Yuck.
(Nothing personal...)

Anyway, here's part of the discussion that I had brought "Out of the Privy" about the menstural cloths. My name was evoked, so here I am!
After that, there is the link to the archive where we collected testimony about the "monthly illness" as it was sometimes called in the courtroom.

(I also think it's possible Lizzie came back early from her trip because of her impending period. Not to hide bloody cloths, premeditated, but more for her own creature comfort and privacy.)
Note upon reading: Susan highlights "menstrual" in red, as a word only used 3 times in Robinson's address.

https://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Arch ... fprivy.htm