Why didn't Lizzie, IF she had "done the deed" simply walk out the door - and go to the store ?

[Steve887788]

To by her fish hooks...A new hat or whatever... She would have plenty of time to accumulate plenty of "Uncle John" style aibis. Then come home - and find either Bridget in a state of panic OR she herself can call the alarm. She could have unlocked the doors. Which would eliminate the "inside job story". She could say I was at so and so buying fish hooks. Which would eliminate the barn story / note story.

It just sounds so weird that IF she did it - she would wait 10/12 minutes or so inside the house to call the maid. Then hang around so Mrs Churchill could see her in her distressed state. Then make up some story about being in a hot barn eating pears and looking for lead to make sinkers for fishing.

Personally speaking I think Lizzie was crafty but not dumb. The way she answered the inquest questions lead me to believe she is careful in the way she is interpreted.

[Steve887788]

Better yet -she could have gone to the Whiteheads and inquire where Mrs B was...

[Goldenstatebear]

Lizzie’s narration of her movements that morning certainly does not present a premeditated alibi. How it strikes me is that she was waiting. Something was happening inside the house and she stayed outside to give someone or some persons privacy inside. If she had committed even one of the killings, she would have created an alibi to be seen in public to give her some sort of cover.

[camgarsky4]

On the subject of leaving doors unlocked....Lizzie did leave the side door unlatched when she went out to the barn. So for any 'intruder did it' speculating, a lot of us assume the side door was the means of escape.

[Steve887788]

she was waiting. Something was happening inside the house and she stayed outside to give someone or some persons privacy inside.

Sounds reasonable - my only problem with that is that she made herself visible to her next door neighbor. And if anyone did leave this person would have been seen most likely.

Unless....................................


The killer took his time cleaning up and hid in a closet or room or under a bed then when the excitement took off he mealy "blended" into the crowd, picked a pear and walked away.

[camgarsky4]

The pear is key! :)

Based on all the statements and testimonies, there were at least a dozen people mulling around 2nd street between Spring and Borden streets. The possibility of her being sighted leaving the house around 11am would have been high regardless of which door she exited.

I've spent a little time wondering about someone hiding and blending in post murder discovery. If you presume Lizzie, Andrew's and the clothes closet doors were locked as Lizzie testified, there is so little left of the house to hide within. Kitchen, dining and sitting rooms are flawed because they were basically 'union station' for that building. To my way of thinking, the parlor seems like the most plausible alternative for hiding before or after the killings. Testimony suggests the doors were closed, Bridget didn't ever enter it and Lizzie didn't claim to have. I'll have to reread testimony to get a sense of exactly what route officer Allen took when he did his initial house check for an intruder. He is the officer that confirmed the front door was triple locked 10-15 minutes after AJB's killing.

p.s. Just my opinion, but I don't think anyone scrunched up on the floor of that small foyer closet.

[leitskev]

I asked this same question about a month ago here in another thread. The logical play would be to walk out. Would people outside see her? Yes. So what? It's still the right play. Bridget comes down around 11:30 and discovers Andrew. Lizzie is downtown. The assumption would be an intruder came in moments after Lizzie left. There would be no way to tell otherwise. There would be questions about Abby...where was Lizzie at that time. But she would have been in a much better position. She could say the intruder killed Abby, waited in the guest room, then killed Andrew once Lizzie left the house.

If Lizzie did the crime(and she probably did), there's a reason people are still debating after 120 years. That's because so much just doesn't make sense. Lizzie somehow cleaned herself up and hid the murder weapon in a place it was never discovered, despite multiple thorough searches. Yet she could take ordinary sensible steps.
- why not go downtown after killing Andrew?
- at the very least, why not open the front door and leave it ajar?
- why invent the cockamamie note story? It wasn't needed. She could have just said Abby went out. It was not unusual for Abby to go out. She used to visit her sister and niece, right? Probably use to go shopping. Why invented the note?

As far as another killer, I suspect it did not take a master criminal mind. An intruder could hide in the guest room. The door was later found open...but that's because the killer had come out and killed Andrew, and managed to get out unseen. The problem is motive. Why kill both Abby and Andrew? Or if we're talking about a serial killer, why let Abby and Bridget live?

But anything is possible. Maybe the killer worried that Lizzie and Bridget, who were younger, could fight back or run away. Maybe the killer reveled on watching Lizzie take the blame. I was reading the book Deviant about Ed Gein, a horrific killer. While he is suspected in killer many people, he also was a grave robber, and the only 2 known people that he killed were older women. It had to do with his mother. Gein inspired the movie Psycho. He became obsessed with a couple of older women that reminded him of his beloved mother. In his twisted mind, he used their skin to in effect become his mother. I only say this to point that the motives of serial killers are hard to really nail down. They come in many shapes and varieties.

[mysterium]

I doubt that anyone will agree, but one theory I have swimming in my head, is the possibility that Abby wasn't a target, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[camgarsky4]

Mysteryium - speaking for myself, I love exploring alternative solutions because it challenges our current 'solutions'. Would you mind expanding on your theorizing?

For Abby to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, would indicate the killer was hiding in the guest room before Abby came to tidy up around 8:30 to 9am. First question to work thru is how and when the killer ended up in the guest room. Lizzie's door and the clothes closet doors were kept locked and Morse didn't leave the guest room until 6amish that morning.

Morse and AJB were stationed in the sitting room or dining room until 8:45. The front door was triple locked. Bridget had the kitchen and side door pretty well blanketed all morning. The parlor keeps popping up to me as key to any scenario in which Lizzie wasn't the culprit or a co-culprit.

[Catbooks]

There were two decent-sized closet-like rooms to the left of the side door entry. One was a sink room, the second a pantry, where I believe the ice box was kept.

It's possible someone slipped through the back door when Bridget left the screen door unhooked to wash the sitting room or front windows, and hid in one. Which would mean they'd still have to get upstairs to the guest room to kill Abby and remain undetected (parlor?) until after Andrew came home and was settled. Plus both Lizzie and Bridget safely out of the way.

[camgarsky4]

Hi Catbooks!

So much depends on when we think Abby was killed. My POV is that she was killed between 9:00-9:20. Bridget didn't go out to begin washing the exterior windows closer to 9:30. That was when, as she stepped out the side door, Lizzie came up to the side screen door and asked Bridget if she was going to wash the windows. I think Abby was already dead at that point, I think many have a differing perspective and think it happened after Lizzie confirmed Bridget was going out to wash the windows.

So if she was already dead at that point, then an intruder would have to had snuck into the house while there were multiple people roaming inside the house prior to 9:15am. Of course, the side door was hooked off and on all morning.

For those that think Lizzie likely is innocent, I would love to 'talk thru' how and when the intruder entered the house and the movements between entering the house, killing Abby, hiding, killing Andrew, and escaping the house.....all unseen.

[Catbooks]

Nice to meet you, Camgarsky :). I've been enjoying reading your posts.

Is there some reason you think Abby was already dead before Lizzie asked Bridget if she was going to wash the windows? I think she was killed afterwards, but then I believe Lizzie was the murderer of both, and that she needed to make sure, to the best of her ability, Bridget was outside the house. Lizzie had no way of knowing ahead of time how much noise killing Abby would make. What if she cried out?

But going with the intruder theory, he or she could have slipped in after Bridget had gone out, leaving the screen door unhooked, and hid in the sink room (the closest, first door on the left), and then listened for where Lizzie and Abby were. Awfully risky, and more so if he or she didn't know the layout of the house and the habits of the Bordens. I usually deadend at this point, trying to think through this scenario.

Of course it's possible it was someone who did know the layout of the house well, and the habits of the Bordens, but who? If they were watching the house to see who was there and doing what, where did they hide? The barn? Possible, unless the barn door (would have been the one on the side - the one in the front's too visible) was locked, and I don't know if it was. Maybe not, since boys had made it up there to mess with the pigeons.

It's very difficult for me to think out any viable way an intruder could work. Maybe best to leave this to someone who believes Lizzie didn't do it.

[camgarsky4]

I'm with you on envisioning how an intruder did the killing. Not only would they need to have a decent idea of the layout and habits, but they would need to know that Abby was in the guest room. Being in the guest room was not a 'habit' of Abby's. Sound like it was a rarity.

I'm away from my notes and books, but the crux of why I think the killings happened closer to 9am than 9:30 is around exclusive opportunity. Lizzie waited until Morse left and then came downstairs around 8:50. She probably heard Abby cleaning in the guest room before coming down and then when she passed Abby in the dining room and they had their brief chat, Abby confirmed she wasn't done yet....she needed to get some clean shams and go back up to change them out. Lizzie was in the kitchen as Bridget went out to vomit (I think Lizzie thought she was going out to wash windows) and Andrew left the house shortly thereafter. So at that point, Lizzie knew she had potentially her only opportunity to follow thru with her plan without an eye witness. As Abby came down from her room with the shams and made her way to the front steps, Lizzie followed behind. Exactly how the bedroom scene played out is open to speculation.
When Lizzie her Bridget closing windows, etc downstairs she was startled, probably heard her breath with anxiety that Bridget might have heard something. As she heard Bridget making her way back towards the kitchen, Lizzie scurried down the stairs to keep track of Bridget. Bridget went out the side door and Lizzie hustled up to the door to verify that finally Bridget was actually going to clean the windows.

There are more 'tidbits' that fit into this timing puzzle for me....but I'll need to take some time to blow off the cobwebs. My focus the last year has been researching personalities and less on the tactics of the crime.

[Catbooks]

Good point. Abby came up to the guest room occasionally to sew and tidy, but it wasn't a predictable habit of hers. The only people who would have known or been able to guess were Lizzie, Bridget, Andrew, and Uncle John.

I suppose an intruder could have heard her ascend the stairs and followed her, but that would have been very risky, and then there's the problem of Abby undoubtedly having seen the murderer, due to the layout of the room and door. It would have been very difficult for someone to slip in and go around to the other side of the bed without her seeing them. Then, what motive would they have and why not kill Lizzie too? If the intruder did know the habits of the Borden residence, they'd have been far more likely to find Lizzie upstairs than Abby.

Offhand, I don't remember what time Bridget said she went outside to start cleaning the windows, or what time she came back inside and went up to her room. Do you?

Unrelated to the topic, today I listened to Emma and Lizzie's testimony at the inquest and was surprised to hear both of them said Uncle John had mentioned Andrew's having a will years prior, yet somehow no one had a copy of it. I must have forgotten this.

Presumably he had an attorney draw up that will, and witnesses witnessed it. He may have been loathe to spend money, but surely he'd have given this task to an attorney.

He was a wealthy man, getting on in years, and it's very strange he had no known will, other than that one. Seems like the prosecutor would have followed this trail of the old will, but I can't find any mention of it. I'm sure all of this has been discussed here over the years, but unfortunately searching "Andrew's [or Andrew Borden's] will" doesn't get me any worthwhile results.

Also strange is both sisters said their own father never mentioned a will to either of them.

[camgarsky4]

Bridget doesn't give a precise time she finally went out to start cleaning windows, but reconstructing the timeline, most estimate it was around 9:30. Along the same line, she likely came back into the house to prep for inside window cleaning around 10:20. Lastly, appears she headed up to her room between 10:50-10:55. I think these are the generally accepted times.

Both sisters testified that Morse had told them about a will years earlier, but not recently. Pasted below is Morse's inquest testimony regarding a AJB will. Towards the end he states that the "old" will had been destroyed 15 years earlier.
Q. Had he ever talked with you about his property?
A. Some, occasionally.
Q. Ever give you an idea of how much he was worth?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did he ever talk with you about a will?
A. Yes Sir, he has.
Q. When was the last time?
A. Somewhere within a year.
Q. When you were there at the house?
A. No Sir, I think we were outside at the time
Q. What was the talk?
A. He said he thought he should make some bequests outside to charitable purposes. He did not say any more
either one way or the other.
Q. Did he say he had made a will?
A. He did not say .
Q. He did not say whether he had or not?
A. Whether he had or had not.
Q. Did he talk as though he was intending to make a will?
A. I judged from that that he was intending to, I drew my conclusions that he had not, but was thinking of it.
Q. Did he mention the bequests outside he thought he should make?
A. He did not.
Q. How came he to be speaking about it?
A. Common conversation, I suppose, same as about his land. Before he bought the Birch land, I was down there
with him. He says lets go up Main street. We went up. He says “here is a piece of property, don't say anything
about it, I have got a chance to buy. What is your opinion about it”? I asked what it could be bought for. I don't
know as he told me direct, but about. I says “I think it is good property in the heart of the city. The city will be
coming towards it all the time. I believe it will be a good investment.” Several months afterwards, one Sunday, he
says “John, I did as you told me to”. I says “what is that,” I forgot all about it. “I bought that Birch land.”
Q. I wish you would recall the conversation about the will as explicitly as you have this.
A. That is all he said about the will, he thought of making some bequests out, you know, for charitable
purposes. His farm over there, he was talking about the Old Ladies Home, “I don't know but I would give them
this, if they would take it.”
Q. Was that the same talk?
A. I don't think it was the same time.
Q. Did he talk to you any other time about a will?
A. I think that is all.
Q. That is the first and last time?
A. Years ago, out West at my place one time, he said he had a will; several years ago he told me he had
destroyed it.
Q. How long ago did he tell you he had destroyed it?
A. 15 years ago.
Q. Did he tell you anything about the contents of the will?
A. He did not