Well, tonight is the night before the infamous murders of August 4, 1892. In just four short hours, Lizzie would be on her way to visit her neighbor, Alice Russell, who lived a few blocks away. She would tell Alice about a strange feeling she had about how someone might “do something” because her father had enemies. Had it just been an innocent remark by Lizzie or was she setting the stage for murder?
Guilty or innocent, Lizzie Borden would step into history the following morning.
Night Before The Murders
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KGDevil
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Re: Night Before The Murders
I think she was setting the stage for the events to come. What do you think was running through Lizzie's mind that night?
Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell. - Arthur Conan Doyle
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dalcanton
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Re: Night Before The Murders
Just like others, I’ve read extensively about Lizzie Borden. Yet, I’m still on the fence about her guilt or innocence. If a piece of evidence were found tomorrow that would prove her guilt, it wouldn’t surprise me. But, as it is now, I honestly don’t know. To me, there’s something missing. Something doesn’t fit. That’s why I’m undecided. Thus, her remark to Alice? Who knows? She was either brilliantly setting the stage for murder or just unknowingly commenting on something that just happened to come true.
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camgarsky4
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Re: Night Before The Murders
130th anniversary and my 2nd anniversary on this forum (actually Aug 1 was)!
I do think Lizzie was the culprit, with a lessor possibility that she had an accomplice. But I definitely think there are many interesting subplots that have yet to surface. There are intriguing clues scattered all over and its fun to try to connect those dots with logic and critical thinking.
I suspect she didn't get any sleep that night as she thought thru each step of the next day. My opinion is that her well laid plans went askew with the news of Uncle John coming back for lunch. The intended timeline blew up and Lizzie had to ad lib it, which I believe was not her strong suit. That said, she was found not guilty.
I still haven't visited the house.....goal for 2023!
I do think Lizzie was the culprit, with a lessor possibility that she had an accomplice. But I definitely think there are many interesting subplots that have yet to surface. There are intriguing clues scattered all over and its fun to try to connect those dots with logic and critical thinking.
I suspect she didn't get any sleep that night as she thought thru each step of the next day. My opinion is that her well laid plans went askew with the news of Uncle John coming back for lunch. The intended timeline blew up and Lizzie had to ad lib it, which I believe was not her strong suit. That said, she was found not guilty.
I still haven't visited the house.....goal for 2023!
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mysterium
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Re: Night Before The Murders
Hi camgarsky4 ! Sorry for the rookie question, but do we know for sure that Lizzie knew that Uncle John was invited back for dinner? It seems odd that someone would tell her that since she and Emma had apparently taken to not eating meals with Andrew and Abby and she had shown no interest in visiting with Uncle John the night before the murders.
The problem I have with the carefully planned plot theory is, why didn't she create a better alibi for herself? She had already set up the idea in her conversation with Bridgett that she definitely was going out. If she did kill Andrew and was able to clean herself up in record time, she could have been out the door shortly after the murder and distancing herself from the house. Not the perfect alibi, but would have gone a long way in creating reasonable doubt. Also, I never have quite understood why her plan would include having her find Andrew's body. She knew Bridgett would be down shortly to start dinner. Just questions about things that don't make sense to me. Hopefully there's a good explanation!
Also, I've seen mentioned that Uncle John was planning on leaving that day of the murders. Do we know that for fact? I read somewhere that he would show up and stay for extended amount of time. I read somewhere on this forum that Abby had complained to Bridgett about his "extended stays". Don't know if it's true or not. The reason I'm asking is, why would Abby go to the guest room to change out just a pillowcase? If she knew he was leaving wouldn't she change the sheets too?
The problem I have with the carefully planned plot theory is, why didn't she create a better alibi for herself? She had already set up the idea in her conversation with Bridgett that she definitely was going out. If she did kill Andrew and was able to clean herself up in record time, she could have been out the door shortly after the murder and distancing herself from the house. Not the perfect alibi, but would have gone a long way in creating reasonable doubt. Also, I never have quite understood why her plan would include having her find Andrew's body. She knew Bridgett would be down shortly to start dinner. Just questions about things that don't make sense to me. Hopefully there's a good explanation!
Also, I've seen mentioned that Uncle John was planning on leaving that day of the murders. Do we know that for fact? I read somewhere that he would show up and stay for extended amount of time. I read somewhere on this forum that Abby had complained to Bridgett about his "extended stays". Don't know if it's true or not. The reason I'm asking is, why would Abby go to the guest room to change out just a pillowcase? If she knew he was leaving wouldn't she change the sheets too?
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camgarsky4
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Re: Night Before The Murders
Mysterium - great questions.
1) Abby had already been up to the room and tidied up (per Lizzie's inquest testimony) and I presume took care of the sheets if that was necessary. Abby told Lizzie and Bridget that she still needed to take up new pillow shams (lizzie & bridget testimony).
2) You are correct, we do not know if she was aware that Morse was returning for lunch. However, based on the one-sided flow of Lizzie's talk w/ her dad around 10:45am that morning upon his return from his downtown walk, I think that AJB told her then. Bridget testified to the conversation, but only heard Lizzie's side of the chat. He must have asked where Abby was and Lizzie replied that she had gotten a note to visit a sick friend. I then believe that Andrew said something along the lines of, " why would she leave the house, Uncle John is coming for dinner?" She was the lady of the house and caring for guests would be her responsibility (w/ Bridget's physical efforts).
3) Morse arriving in the next hour for lunch and hanging around for that afternoon would cause Lizzie to lose control of the murder scene. With Abby lying dead upstairs, things would likely get very dicey and it would not be possible to kill Andrew. So she was forced to act immediately. I think her planned alibi was to be out shopping that afternoon and arrive home later in the day to find the horrible scene of both dead. But needing to act immediately, apparently the best she could come up with was the barn and fishing sinkers. That is where needing to solve "ad lib" comes into play.
Clearly, much of this is my conjecture and deductions.....but it makes a great amount of sense to me and fits in with the flow of events which I think is key to reconstructing the events.
1) Abby had already been up to the room and tidied up (per Lizzie's inquest testimony) and I presume took care of the sheets if that was necessary. Abby told Lizzie and Bridget that she still needed to take up new pillow shams (lizzie & bridget testimony).
2) You are correct, we do not know if she was aware that Morse was returning for lunch. However, based on the one-sided flow of Lizzie's talk w/ her dad around 10:45am that morning upon his return from his downtown walk, I think that AJB told her then. Bridget testified to the conversation, but only heard Lizzie's side of the chat. He must have asked where Abby was and Lizzie replied that she had gotten a note to visit a sick friend. I then believe that Andrew said something along the lines of, " why would she leave the house, Uncle John is coming for dinner?" She was the lady of the house and caring for guests would be her responsibility (w/ Bridget's physical efforts).
3) Morse arriving in the next hour for lunch and hanging around for that afternoon would cause Lizzie to lose control of the murder scene. With Abby lying dead upstairs, things would likely get very dicey and it would not be possible to kill Andrew. So she was forced to act immediately. I think her planned alibi was to be out shopping that afternoon and arrive home later in the day to find the horrible scene of both dead. But needing to act immediately, apparently the best she could come up with was the barn and fishing sinkers. That is where needing to solve "ad lib" comes into play.
Clearly, much of this is my conjecture and deductions.....but it makes a great amount of sense to me and fits in with the flow of events which I think is key to reconstructing the events.
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mysterium
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Re: Night Before The Murders
Camgarsky .. thanks for clearing that up. This just opens another question. If Lizzie had this all planned out, why would she pass on the first opportunity to kill Abby in the spare room? It's my understanding that Abby rarely went up there and how would Lizzie know at that time that Abby would be coming back a second time? If she passed on the first opportunity, in her mind at the time her only option would have been to kill Abby downstairs which makes no sense for obvious reasons, unless of course she was planning to kill Andrew and Abby at the same time. That seems doubtful to me that she would take on a possible physical struggle with both of them or even with Bridget. I don't think she in any way would want to take on Bridgett in a physical fight even with the advantage of a sharp weapon.
From what I can see, Andrew's invitation to John Morse seemed like an open ended one. He was welcome if he chose to show back up at the dinner hour. I question if Abby even knew Andrew had invited John for dinner since she had told Bridget to just go with leftovers and use what she had for dinner that day. It might be a difference in area culture, but in the South we put always put on a spread for "company". If JM was leaving that day, why would he come back that day? It would seem that if he was leaving town that day, he would want to get on the road as soon as any "business" was completed.
From what I can see, Andrew's invitation to John Morse seemed like an open ended one. He was welcome if he chose to show back up at the dinner hour. I question if Abby even knew Andrew had invited John for dinner since she had told Bridget to just go with leftovers and use what she had for dinner that day. It might be a difference in area culture, but in the South we put always put on a spread for "company". If JM was leaving that day, why would he come back that day? It would seem that if he was leaving town that day, he would want to get on the road as soon as any "business" was completed.
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camgarsky4
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Re: Night Before The Murders
Mysterium - Per Bridget's testimony, Abby & Bridget discussed the menu for breakfast & lunch around 6:30-6:45am. Andrew invited Morse back for lunch close to 8:45am.
During the inquest, I think Lizzie fabricated much of her recollection of what she and Abby said to each other that morning, but to your point, I do wonder about Lizzie's testimony where Abby said she was going to the market and did Lizzie want anything. Abby going to the market for fresh food matches up with plans to upgrade the lunch meal to accommodate Morse's return. So I've kept that part of their 'conversation' on the "it might be true" list.
Sorry, but I'm not understanding the part about Morse's invitation being open ended. Per Morse Inquest testimony, Andrew said "John, come back to dinner with us." and Morse replied that he would. And he did. Maybe it was for a free lunch, maybe he enjoyed spending time w/ Andrew, or maybe he was being polite.
When Abby tidied the bedroom initially and seemingly around 8:30am (Morse saw Abby going into front entry at that time, last he saw her), Morse and Andrew were downstairs. Seems pretty risky to slaughter someone with three people, including her husband who might ask for her afterwards, in very close proximity. Lizzie waited for Morse to leave the house, came downstairs and then waited for Andrew to leave and she thought Bridget had left to wash windows (even though she was only vomiting). That is when the opportunity with Abby materialized. I think the closest Lizzie came to be caught red handed was her mistaking Bridget's being outside vomiting for 10-15 minutes to being outside washing the windows for an extended period. You might recall in her inquest testimony, Lizzie said that she thought Bridget went out to wash windows around the time Andrew is leaving for downtown. I think she was telling the truth and probably still thought it until she heard Bridget's preliminary hearing testimony.
The way I reconstruct that morning, Lizzie being the killer, or, at a minimum, having a direct involvement, is the only plausible answer. For me anyway.
During the inquest, I think Lizzie fabricated much of her recollection of what she and Abby said to each other that morning, but to your point, I do wonder about Lizzie's testimony where Abby said she was going to the market and did Lizzie want anything. Abby going to the market for fresh food matches up with plans to upgrade the lunch meal to accommodate Morse's return. So I've kept that part of their 'conversation' on the "it might be true" list.
Sorry, but I'm not understanding the part about Morse's invitation being open ended. Per Morse Inquest testimony, Andrew said "John, come back to dinner with us." and Morse replied that he would. And he did. Maybe it was for a free lunch, maybe he enjoyed spending time w/ Andrew, or maybe he was being polite.
When Abby tidied the bedroom initially and seemingly around 8:30am (Morse saw Abby going into front entry at that time, last he saw her), Morse and Andrew were downstairs. Seems pretty risky to slaughter someone with three people, including her husband who might ask for her afterwards, in very close proximity. Lizzie waited for Morse to leave the house, came downstairs and then waited for Andrew to leave and she thought Bridget had left to wash windows (even though she was only vomiting). That is when the opportunity with Abby materialized. I think the closest Lizzie came to be caught red handed was her mistaking Bridget's being outside vomiting for 10-15 minutes to being outside washing the windows for an extended period. You might recall in her inquest testimony, Lizzie said that she thought Bridget went out to wash windows around the time Andrew is leaving for downtown. I think she was telling the truth and probably still thought it until she heard Bridget's preliminary hearing testimony.
The way I reconstruct that morning, Lizzie being the killer, or, at a minimum, having a direct involvement, is the only plausible answer. For me anyway.