Why that day?!

[dunnmum20]

First time posting after going down a rabbit hole for the past week. I've gotten sucked into a lot of true crime boards, but this is by far the most impressive, you all are true scholars! I don't think there's much ground that hasn't been covered (including this) but I haven't seen a post specifically on this topic, mostly just discussed in other posts (although I've far from finished all the posts). I got into this hoping for more compelling evidence of Lizzie's innocence (simply because a "who done it" is a bit more intriguing ), but after reading so many of your insights I'm 99% sure she is guilty. One of the nagging questions though is why did she choose that particular day for the murders when there were at least two circumstances that caused deviations from the regular routines of the Borden household: Morse's visit (most important); illness that kept Abby, Bridget and Andrew from their more routine schedule. It seems like Lizzie's intimate knowledge of these routines and when she could successfully carry out the murders unseen was her greatest asset in getting away with the crime. As noted, the biggest red flag to me is why she would go ahead (even if it was planned in advance) once Morse came to stay. To have an outsider there at the time of the crime (even though he was out of the house) was a huge risk. Possibilities include he was in on it (seems unlikely to me, at least foreknowledge), or to cast suspicion on him? I've read there's some debate about whether Lizzie knew he was returning for dinner. Is the argument that she believed he was just staying the night before and leaving for good that morning? Did he leave any belongings behind (even if he wasn't returning for dinner)? Even if it was true she believed he wasn't returning, it seems like a glaring oversight for her to not at least check with Bridget, about dinner or otherwise ("has Uncle John left to get his train" etc.) I just can't imagine if she planned this out (which I believe she did) that she wouldn't ensure she had the time to execute her plan. An addendum to that is with such a tight timetable, did she know Andrew would be returning at the time he did (10:45ish)? Was this earlier than his usual routine because he was ill? I just can't wrap my head around her going ahead with Morse in town. Was it because it had to be done on window washing day to have Bridget out of the house for Abby's murder? Was the following week no good because Emma was returning (do we know when Emma was originally scheduled to return)? The other possibility, which there doesn't seem to be much evidence for, is did Morse's business with Andrew create some kind of urgency? 

Well this post has already gone longer than I thought, but I will add the more minor issue of illness in the household. This may have prevented Bridget leaving the house as Lizzie had planned, or maybe even washing the windows since she vomited that morning (although I guess Lizzie may not have gone ahead with Abby's murder in that case). And I've seen it speculated that Andrew was considering not going out that morning because he wasn't feeling well, and possibly came back earlier than usual?

I agree a combination of these issues likely caused Lizzie to deviate from her original plan, and probably kill Andrew in haste with Bridget upstairs once she learned (from him?) that Morse was returning for dinner, thereby making a mess of her statements and alibi. But WHY the urgency of that day, even if she had to move ahead once she killed Abby, I'm just bothered by the idea of her going ahead with it in spite of Morse's visit, and having no knowledge (and not confirming) of his eventual return to the house.

[mysterium]

This has always been a puzzle for me, as well. If I had been planning this, I think I would have aborted or postponed the moment that JM showed up. Too much unpredictability and out of control. There has been speculation that Lizzy knew JM had been invited back for lunch, but to my knowledge there is no evidence that she had been told. She never mentioned it in her account to the police. Bridget could have told her, but she never mentioned it in any of her accounts of the day. Andrew could have told her, but we have no account of their conversation when he came back to the house other than Bridgett's account that they were in the sitting room together but she couldn't hear the conversation. Abby could have told her, if she did have a conversation with her as Lizzie stated. I don't know why anyone would bother to tell her since she had been avoiding JM like the plague since he showed up and had not been eating dinner with the family for some time. JM did state in his trial testimony that he arrived with no bags or personal items and stated that he left no personal items in the guest room when he left to go visit his relatives that day. Another thing, I don't think Abby gave the instructions to Bridgett to wash the windows until that morning, as seemed to be the routine for her to give instructions for meals and other tasks for the day. It is my understanding that Andrew usually came home for dinner about an hour later than he did that day. There is lots of speculation on what was discussed in the sitting room the night before with only Andrew, Abby and JM in attendance. The other thing that is odd to me is that if I had planned this, I think I would have gone downstairs pretty early to check out the landscape and sure the ducks were falling in a row. Maybe even asking questions about everyone's plans for the day. But she was the last person downstairs and after JM and Andrew had left the house.

[dunnmum20]

Thanks for the info on Morse's lack of personal items, seems strange but maybe that was more common for the time. I completely agree with your last statement, especially if she didn't go downstairs before John and Andrew left to find out what their plan for the day was, I would think she certainly would have questioned Bridget about it.

[camgarsky4]

Hi dunnmum20!!

Your questions are excellent. Here are a few observations and thoughts to consider....

* South Dartmouth was ~25 miles from Fall River....roughly 1 1/2 hour train ride. It would have been easy for JM to visit FR on a day trip w/ no overnight stay. Per his testimony, during his talk w/ AJB the fact that his nephew & niece were visiting the Emery's was brought up and he was encouraged to visit them. That could be why he chose to spend the night vs. go straight back to South Dartmouth once his Swansea biz was completed regarding the cattle/oxen. A bachelor male not having any travelling gear for such a short (time & distance) trip in 1892 doesn't strike me as odd, especially if he was leaning towards returning same day.

* Bridget overheard AJB and Lizzie's conversation in the dining room on the 4th upon AJB's return from his walk. She only heard Lizzie's side of the conversation, but it was a two-way chat per Lizzie's inquest testimony. Bridget tells us that as part of this conversation, Lizzie mentioned the note Abby had received. This statement from Lizzie must have been in response to a question from AJB. Now the theorizing (dot connecting)....the logical question AJB (or any husband) would ask is "where is Abby, I don't feel well", Lizzie explains she is gone via the note story and then AJB gets agitated that Abby would leave the house with a guest coming for lunch (Morse). If you play thru how that conversation might have gone, I can't come up with a better alternative that flows with what Bridget heard and Lizzie recalled.

* I think the answer to your question about why she didn't come downstairs and scout out the situation might be answered by the fact that she did come downstairs literally moments after Morse left the house. How incredibly coincidental. I suspect she was eavesdropping all morning (likely slept very little that night) and intentionally waited for him to leave.

* "Why that day" is a question that we have all spent considerable time noodling over. Something had to be a catalyst....but exactly what drove the urgency, I have not read or heard a satisfactory explanation yet.

Besides the primary source documents on the LB Virtual Library site, I also highly recommend Jennings Journals and Knowlton Papers. They both provide a number of highly intriguing pieces of this puzzle. The fun part is researching and ideating to put the known pieces together and then some critical thinking to solve for the missing puzzle pieces.

Enjoy the forum!!

[dunnmum20]

Thank you for your input camgarsky4! I've read dozens if not hundreds of your contributions and it's clear you know your stuff. So if it's still a mystery to you I trust there's not much insight that hasn't been analyzed already :-) Interesting to ponder nonetheless, which is why we're all still so fascinated. Just seems like such a major oversight on her part. Obviously she wasn't a criminal mastermind, but did well enough to get away with it and have us turning over every detail 125 years later. Thanks for the source recs as well!

[misterkth]

Love this topic.

I think the actual real reason is lost to history. Maybe she heard or saw something that put her over the edge.... who knows. It's more likely that she had thought about or even planned on killing Abby when the time was right. From Lizzie's perspective at 9AM on that day, the time was right.

Here's what Lizzie knew, Andrew was doing his routine, John Morse was out visiting, Bridget was outside doing a job that typically took a while to complete and Abby was going to be in the guest room. Emma being away is also a bonus - we know Emma wasn't fond of Abby. Logically, though, did she want her dead???? Sadly, we don't know enough about Emma's personality to really answer that, but it's rather likely that she would not have supported a butchering. We don't know, but it seems odd to assume that she would. Lizzie had ample time to do what she had to do.

Typically, Andrew's routine was clockwork. If he didn't return home early, Lizzie could have easily unbolted the front door and gone out. IIRC, Bridget was off on Thursday afternoons and would have been out or sleeping (due to the illness.) Nobody would have gone found Abby until A: John Morse returned or B: Andrew or Bridget got curious. By then, Lizzie would have been gone to Sargent's to buy some cloth ;)

Just my thoughts, but as the Shadow says, "who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of (wo)men."

[mysterium]

camgarsky, I thought the timeline was that JM departed around 8:30am, Andrew departed around 9:00am, close to the time that Bridgett went outside to be sick and then Lizzie came down. Is that not true? Even if she came down immediately after JM departed, I would think she was still trying to avoid him, as she had done his whole visit. It isn't a stretch for me to believe that she could hear comings and goings from upstairs and she could easily look out the window to see who it was.

JM didn't arrive until around 1:30pm the afternoon before. If he was only coming a distance of 25 miles, I don't think his plan was to make it a day trip or he would have arrived earlier in the day to take care of everything he came to do. I still think it's odd that he came with nothing other than the clothes on his back and his filing cabinet pocket. It would be helpful to know if this was his usual habit when visiting or if this was unusual for him. Does anyone know if that question was ever asked?

I don't think Lizzie would have been able to hear all conversations in their entirety from the landing. I'm sure she could pick up bits and pieces here and there, but not complete conversations. Bridgett said she couldn't hear the complete conversation between Lizzie and Andrew from nearby. I still find this odd. Andrew might have been in a weakened state and talking softly, but you would think she would catch a few words here and there. My whole point was by just relying on eavesdropping, she was leaving everything to chance that she would get all the information that she needed for the day.

I don't know that Lizzie knew Bridgett would be washing the windows that morning until she finally came downstairs.

[dunnmum20]

misterkth, thanks for the viewpoints! Yeah this unknown really intrigues me, because it seems like it really bears on whether, or how much, it was premeditated. If not for using the hatchet (which presumably Lizzie wasn't simply carrying around for innocent reasons) you could almost believe it was a crime of passion against Abby, and then she felt she had to follow through with the murder of Andrew. This doesn't seem like a crime of passion (as a legal definition, more accurately "heat of the moment" because there are elements of "passion" and uncontrolled anger), but yet she left so much to chance that day as mysterium points out. Maybe it did happen to be the best opportunity she had to murder Abby, she took advantage, and then got extremely lucky in an incredibly tight timeframe.

[camgarsky4]

Morse left around 8:45 (per Morse & Bridget). Lizzie came downstairs around 8:50. Talked to Abby, Bridget and AJB (per Lizzie & Bridget) all before AJB left around 9am (seen leaving by Mrs. Churchill).

Churchill saw AJB at the bottom of the stairs that went towards back yard (the side door offered steps towards the street and steps toward the backyard off a common platform). I think he heard an odd noise and peaked into the back and saw Bridget being sick. He then pivoted and headed to 2nd St.

[mysterium]

Thanks, camgarsky4, as always!

Dunnmum20, add to it a recent discussion on this forum, where camgarsky4 pointed out that Abby was apparently killed during her second trip up to the guest room that morning. She had gone up earlier to tidy up and then a little bit later went back up to take a new pillowcase. I think it would be reasonable to believe that Lizzie would know Abby would go up to the guest room to tidy up since Emma wasn't there. So why didn't she take advantage of the opportunity of Abby's first trip up to the guest room? She had no way to predict that Abby would be going up a second time.

[camgarsky4]

Mysterium --
Lizzie couldn't act until the house emptied out a bit. When Abby had her first visit to the guest room, AJB was still home and Bridget was camped out in the kitchen. Possibly within 15-30 minutes prior to Abby's killing, AJB and Morse had left the house and Bridget had gone outside to vomit (I think Lizzie thought she had gone out to clean windows). But Lizzie had gone nowhere. I think they call that 'exclusive opportunity".

Those things didn't happen until Abby had gone back downstairs and Lizzie had gotten up and went downstairs. Seems unlikely that AJB wouldn't have noticed Abby wasn't around prior to him leaving until noon meal.

Lizzie Inquest Testimony:
Q. When did you last see your mother?
A. I did not see her after when I went down in the morning and she was dusting the dining room.
Q. Did you or she leave the dining room first?
A. I think I did. I left her in the dining room.
Q. You never saw her or heard her afterwards?
A. No sir.
Q. Did she say anything about making the bed?
A. She said she had been up and made the bed up fresh and had dusted the room and left it all in order. She was going to put some fresh pillow slips on the small pillows at the foot of the bed and was going to close the room because she was going to have company Monday and she wanted everything in order.
Q. How long would it take to put on the pillow slips?
A. About two minutes.
Q. How long to do the rest of the things?
A. She had done that when I came down.
Q. All that was left was what?
A. To put on the pillow slips.

[trojanusc]

This is all so fascinating. One thing I truly do wonder is if the evidence as to whether or not Abby's murder time is incorrect. We know they based most of the evidence on the food digestion, but Andrew had been out walking around, being active and was a slim man. Abby was a hefty lady, who perhaps ate more and was not as active. Were these things taken into account?

I also know there is some evidence the coagulation of blood was taken into account, but by all accounts Abby wasn't found for some time after Andrew, so this seems like enough time to make a noticeable difference in the blood state.

[camgarsky4]

Hi Trojan!

There is a ton of discussion and information regarding the evidence supporting (or not) the timing of Abby's death on this forum or in trial testimony of Dr. Draper. "What time did Abby really die?" is a pretty good thread. You will be able to find many more.

To me the most compelling indicator that Abby was killed earlier than AJB is when she was last seen. Lizzie and Bridget both mention they talked to Abby between 9-9:30 in the dining room/kitchen area. Both indicated that Abby was going back to the guest room to change pillow shams.

Lizzie was in the house until she went to the barn around 10:50 and Bridget was in and out of the house several times between 9:30 and 11am. Neither saw or heard Abby.

[mysterium]

Just to set the record straight, or not, On the recent Mondo Lizzie Borden channel by Stefani Koorey on YT, she quotes from The Evening Standard, August 5, 1892, that during questioning William A Davis said that JVM had spoken for several weeks of purchasing 2 head of cattle from AJB. He also stated that JVM had spoken of purchasing additional cattle while in Fall River. William A Davis' daughter was present during the conversation between her father and JVM before JVM departed their home and stated that he intended to return last night. Since this was published Aug 5th, I guess "last night" refers to the night of Aug 4th?, meaning he intended to spend the night of Aug 3rd?

What I find strange about all of this is that Morse in his testimony stated that his reason for coming to Fall River was in response to Andrew's letter, but he doesn't seem to mention the letter to his good friend that he lives with. He just tells WADavis that he's going to purchase some cattle and to go see his uncle. Also, it sounds like he left the Davis home fairly early Aug 3rd (after a shave), but he doesn't get to the Borden home until 1:30pm.

[camgarsky4]

You are correct, he very well could have been planning to stay the night of August 3rd.

On the AJB letter, you got me curious, so I reread Morse's inquest testimony...pasted the relevant sections below. To me, Morse mentions the letter from AJB in context of Knowlton's line of questions regarding if he wrote letters to any of the family members. It was not a response to why he specifically visited. He may have visited because of the livestock transaction, but he was prepared to discuss the farm staffing issue if AJB brought the topic up.

Also pasted below Morse's testimony is the witness statement of Frank Eddy, Borden farm boss, noting that he asked Morse what the status of the owen/cow transaction was. Morse said he needed to discuss with AJB, which they probably did that night. So the possible transaction Morse mentioned to Williams Davis was legit and the reason he told Davis that reason is because it involved Davis directly. I suspect topics between Morse and AJB would not be considered Davis's business.

Morse Inquest Testimony
Q. You say that the day before the tragedy, you came about what time?
A. I left New Bedford on the 12.35 train. I suppose I got to his house about half past one.
Q. Eat dinner there?
A. Yes Sir, they had been to dinner.
Q. Had you written you were coming?
A. I think not
............skip unrelated testimony.........
Q. Had you written you were coming?
A. I think not.
Q. Were you in the habit, since this year and a half of being here, of writing to any of them?
A. I wrote to Mr. Borden.
Q. Had you written to either of your nieces?
A. Emma has to me.
Q. Never to Lizzie?
A. No.
Q. Lizzie has not written you, nor you to her?
A. No Sir.
Q. You have no letters from Lizzie in your possession?
A. No Sir.
Q. You do not think you had written announcing your visit at this time?
A. I don't think I did. Let me see, let me tell it as I can think of it. Mr. Borden, when I was over here sometime
in July, that I speak of, wanted to know if I knew of a man he could get on his farm, to take charge of it, I told
him I did not know, I would see. When I got back I wrote him I knew of a man I thought would suit him, I
would send him over. He wrote back to me he had rather I would wait until I saw him. I have his letter in my
pocket, if you want to see it.
Q. What was the date of that letter? You may refresh your memory. If you have no objections, I will see it.


Detective Seaver report of Frank Eddy's witness statement. Pg. 36 August 11, 1892.
Early Thursday morning, Aug. 11, went to Luther’s Corners, Swansea, with Marshal Hilliard, to
the farm owned by the late Andrew J. Borden, and had an interview with Frederick Eddy and Alfred C.
Johnson, who have been employed on that place, Mr. Eddy for sixteen years, and Johnson for nine.
Frederick Eddy made the following statement. “John V. Morse came over to this house Wednesday
evening Aug. 3, between seven and eight o’clock. He drove a horse and top buggy; said it was a stable
team. He came in the house and brought a rattan basket, took out three pears and laid on the table, said
he brought them over from the Borden house. He said Mr. Borden sent him over to see how I was, and
get the eggs. Said Mr. Borden was coming with him, but he, his wife and Lizzie were taken sick last
night, and he couldn’t come. He said he stopped to supper at Mr. Vinnecum’s, who lives a short distance
from here. I said to him, after he got his eggs, “how about the oxen Mr. Davis of South Dartmouth was
to have to use?” “I am going back and see Mr. Borden, and think we will make arrangements to get
them back over Saturday morning”, was the reply. Mr. Morse stayed here perhaps ten or fifteen minutes